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Polot
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:32 pm

As I said before Jetblue announcing they are starting intercontinental flights by ordering the A330neo doesn't really make a lot of sense in Paris. That seems like something they would do in New York were they will have full attention of the local and aviation media, and where a majority of their customers and especially employees are.
 
Flying-Tiger
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:11 pm

lightsaber wrote:
From what evidence I can find, 737NGs and A320CEOs are selling for about $20million less per plane than they did 3 to 5 years ago. That is quite a bit of fuel (and a price I didn't expect to see). Get your popcorn, until Pratt and CFM have production of the new engines above a thousand per year (both vendors), there will be no choice but to keep selling the old engines at a discount. Yes, I wrote Pratt delivering over a thousand PW1500s and PW1100s per year. Please recall CFM is ramping up to over 1800 LEAP engines per year too... The economies of scale now required in this industry are mind bending. Lightsaber


This might - at the end of the day - be the biggest obstacle for Boeing to overcome to make a business case for the MoM. Costs will only be driven down by scale, both on the airframe and engine production, to bring costs into a reasonable level. On the other hand, both manufacturers have products on both ends of the spectrum which can be offered dirt cheap (see above), and would put a lot of nasty price pressure on a MoM offering, regardless if with a NG/ceo or MAX/neo offering, or a B787/A330/330neo offering.

Whilst this might be fun for the airlines to be in, it raises to question if a - for Boeing and Airbus similarly applying - commercially attractive MoM can actually be developed, or if it might not be more sensible to "MAX a neo" or "neo a MAX" in the longer term, ever expanding their envelop to eate into the MoM from below. And to lighten the smaller A330neo / B787 derivated to eate in from above and skip a MoM alltogehter. All current offerings can be producted at marginal costs taking advantage of a today already existing scale production, something any MoM would need to achive, and where I´ve difficulity to see the market size.

Which makes a very interesting discussion and line of discussion IMO.
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HighBypass
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:30 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Looks like JetBlue is getting A330neos, would have liked to see some 787s for them but A330neo makes sense for them and their plans.

https://twitter.com/FlyingPhotog/status ... 0524891137


The rumor tweet from "FlyingPhotog" has been deleted.
 
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FBWFTW
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:17 am

jnev3289 wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:

It sure would have been something...
Seems like a A321LR would make a lot more sense.

Yea, I only said that because someone earlier in the thread had "sources" saying Jetblue was going to announce an A330neo order


I fully believe B6 will order A332 or A338's at some point ONCE they begin flights with the A321Neo(LR ?) AND they are successful to the degree that further capacity is needed. My "sources" suggest that it's the worst kept secret at B6 that they'll begin TATL and perhaps even TPAC to HI (HI is more of a ??? given the HA partnership)

In addition, The Man Who Sold the Sky who is one of my personal favorite salesmen ever* is known for pulling a proverbial rabbit out of the hat on the FINAL day of an airshow

(*in addition to appreciating the beauty of the airbus wing and also the FBW logic, my far larger than 16.9" erm... posterior thinks of Leahy every time I fly an Airbus with the more comfortable seating arrangements)
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FBWFTW
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:22 am

Flying-Tiger wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
From what evidence I can find, 737NGs and A320CEOs are selling for about $20million less per plane than they did 3 to 5 years ago. That is quite a bit of fuel (and a price I didn't expect to see). Get your popcorn, until Pratt and CFM have production of the new engines above a thousand per year (both vendors), there will be no choice but to keep selling the old engines at a discount. Yes, I wrote Pratt delivering over a thousand PW1500s and PW1100s per year. Please recall CFM is ramping up to over 1800 LEAP engines per year too... The economies of scale now required in this industry are mind bending. Lightsaber


Whilst this might be fun for the airlines to be in, it raises to question if a - for Boeing and Airbus similarly applying - commercially attractive MoM can actually be developed, or if it might not be more sensible to "MAX a neo" or "neo a MAX" in the longer term, ever expanding their envelop to eate into the MoM from below. And to lighten the smaller A330neo / B787 derivated to eate in from above and skip a MoM alltogehter. All current offerings can be producted at marginal costs taking advantage of a today already existing scale production, something any MoM would need to achive, and where I´ve difficulity to see the market size.

Which makes a very interesting discussion and line of discussion IMO.

+1 on the bolded stuff it most CERTAINLY will make for a VERY interesting discussion (and no doubt yet ANOTHER A vs B fanboy flame war where the mods will sigh and lock threads left and right)

Waiting on the newest concept of an A322 and 797-8 with a fly on them lol.
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dubaiamman243
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:35 am

Delta orders 10 more A321s
The next airline CEO :crossfingers:
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:38 am

dubaiamman243 wrote:
Delta orders 10 more A321s


This was reported a long time ago.
 
chiad
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:55 am

ikolkyo wrote:
dubaiamman243 wrote:
Delta orders 10 more A321s


This was reported a long time ago.


He said 10 more.
Maybe it's another 10 more?
;)

Does anyone know when the first announcement for today is due?
 
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A330freak
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:14 am

chiad wrote:
Does anyone know when the first announcement for today is due?

Here we go, HiFly for 2 A330-200ceo
Image
http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-re ... order.html
 
juliuswong
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:32 am

A330freak wrote:
chiad wrote:
Does anyone know when the first announcement for today is due?

Here we go, HiFly for 2 A330-200ceo
Image
http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-re ... order.html

This is a surprise! HiFly usually takes used aircraft. Kudos for Airbus and HiFly!
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mjoelnir
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:18 am

juliuswong wrote:
This is a surprise! HiFly usually takes used aircraft. Kudos for Airbus and HiFly!


Perhaps there are not enough used, reasonable priced A330 on the market. They can not endlessly add A340-200/300.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:30 am

mjoelnir wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
This is a surprise! HiFly usually takes used aircraft. Kudos for Airbus and HiFly!


Perhaps there are not enough used, reasonable priced A330 on the market. They can not endlessly add A340-200/300.


And these A332 end-of-the-line are probably dirt cheap. :D

Will probably be a combination of things.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:42 am

What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
Someone83
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:26 am

The A321ceo ain't dead yet
 
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Dutchy
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:28 am

Someone83 wrote:
The A321ceo ain't dead yet



No, doesn't need Airbus sell CEO slots to cover the cab as a result of problems with upscaling the production of the NEO engines?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
mjoelnir
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:47 am

Dutchy wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
This is a surprise! HiFly usually takes used aircraft. Kudos for Airbus and HiFly!


Perhaps there are not enough used, reasonable priced A330 on the market. They can not endlessly add A340-200/300.


And these A332 end-of-the-line are probably dirt cheap. :D

Will probably be a combination of things.


Why should they be dirt cheap, apart from of course being the least expensive wide body on the market anyway? I do not believe that Airbus is selling the A330ceo without making a good profit.

Airbus has enough orders of A330ceo, a backlog of 127, to float the production line until the A330-900 comes on line next year. The combined neo ceo Backlog of 335 frames is, at the current production rate of 6 frames a month, or 72 frames a year, good for well over four years. Airbus was rather thinking of increasing production rates.
 
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Polot
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:55 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

Perhaps there are not enough used, reasonable priced A330 on the market. They can not endlessly add A340-200/300.


And these A332 end-of-the-line are probably dirt cheap. :D

Will probably be a combination of things.


Why should they be dirt cheap, apart from of course being the least expensive wide body on the market anyway? I do not believe that Airbus is selling the A330ceo without making a good profit.

Airbus has enough orders of A330ceo, a backlog of 127, to float the production line until the A330-900 comes on line next year. The combined neo ceo Backlog of 335 frames is, at the current production rate of 6 frames a month, or 72 frames a year, good for well over four years. Airbus was rather thinking of increasing production rates.

1) Dirt cheap does not mean that Airbus is not making money with the plane.
2) the Neo delays likely open some last minute slots for the Ceo.
3) You know perfectly well that just because the backlog techinically can be built in 4 years doesn't mean Airbus actually have the next 4 years of A330 production filled out. AirAsia has A330neos deliveries stretching out to ~10 years from now for example. Same possible story with the Ceo, considering they will be built along side Neos for a while.
 
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:58 am

Dutchy wrote:
Someone83 wrote:
The A321ceo ain't dead yet



No, doesn't need Airbus sell CEO slots to cover the cab as a result of problems with upscaling the production of the NEO engines?


As far as I know, Airbus oversold the ceo rather than needing additional orders. The engine and therefore delivery troubles led to pulling some ceo deliveries forward, but Airbus will because of the amount of undelivered A320 family ceos stop the ceo production later than planned, we will definitely see ceos still produced in 2019. The ceo Backlog was end of May 564 frames, there were ceo orders in Paris now.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:05 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Someone83 wrote:
The A321ceo ain't dead yet



No, doesn't need Airbus sell CEO slots to cover the cab as a result of problems with upscaling the production of the NEO engines?


As far as I know, Airbus oversold the ceo rather than needing additional orders. The engine and therefore delivery troubles led to pulling some ceo deliveries forward, but Airbus will because of the amount of undelivered A320 family ceos stop the ceo production later than planned, we will definitely see ceos still produced in 2019. The ceo Backlog was end of May 564 frames, there were ceo orders in Paris now.


They are still selling the CEO, so there seem to be slots available, 2019 isn't that far out when ordering an aircraft.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
mjoelnir
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:06 am

Polot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

And these A332 end-of-the-line are probably dirt cheap. :D

Will probably be a combination of things.


Why should they be dirt cheap, apart from of course being the least expensive wide body on the market anyway? I do not believe that Airbus is selling the A330ceo without making a good profit.

Airbus has enough orders of A330ceo, a backlog of 127, to float the production line until the A330-900 comes on line next year. The combined neo ceo Backlog of 335 frames is, at the current production rate of 6 frames a month, or 72 frames a year, good for well over four years. Airbus was rather thinking of increasing production rates.

1) Dirt cheap does not mean that Airbus is not making money with the plane.
2) the Neo delays likely open some last minute slots for the Ceo.
3) You know perfectly well that just because the backlog techinically can be built in 4 years doesn't mean Airbus actually have the next 4 years of A330 production filled out. AirAsia has A330neos deliveries stretching out to ~10 years from now for example. Same possible story with the Ceo, considering they will be built along side Neos for a while.


1) Fire sales under price is usually called dirt cheap. You do not talk about dirt cheap if you make a reasonable profit.
2) That is why Airbus did not increase the build rate to 7 a month again. And the delay is as it is 3 month, that means 18 frames more to be produced as ceos before the production neos are build, or Airbus builds some neo gliders, that stand around for a few weeks.
3) That is why I talk about the combined backlog, I assume orders for the ceo rather than neo are done, because the buyer is in a hurry to get the frame.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:10 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Polot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

Why should they be dirt cheap, apart from of course being the least expensive wide body on the market anyway? I do not believe that Airbus is selling the A330ceo without making a good profit.

Airbus has enough orders of A330ceo, a backlog of 127, to float the production line until the A330-900 comes on line next year. The combined neo ceo Backlog of 335 frames is, at the current production rate of 6 frames a month, or 72 frames a year, good for well over four years. Airbus was rather thinking of increasing production rates.

1) Dirt cheap does not mean that Airbus is not making money with the plane.
2) the Neo delays likely open some last minute slots for the Ceo.
3) You know perfectly well that just because the backlog techinically can be built in 4 years doesn't mean Airbus actually have the next 4 years of A330 production filled out. AirAsia has A330neos deliveries stretching out to ~10 years from now for example. Same possible story with the Ceo, considering they will be built along side Neos for a while.


1) Fire sales under price is usually called dirt cheap. You do not talk about dirt cheap if you make a reasonable profit.
2) That is why Airbus did not increase the build rate to 7 a month again. And the delay is as it is 3 month, that means 18 frames more to be produced as ceos before the production neos are build, or Airbus builds some neo gliders, that stand around for a few weeks.
3) That is why I talk about the combined backlog, I assume orders for the ceo rather than neo are done, because the buyer is in a hurry to get the frame.


Sorry not native speaker, so I meant by dirt cheap, cheaper than other options and less margin for Airbus than desirable, but not with a loss.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:12 am

Dutchy wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Dutchy wrote:


No, doesn't need Airbus sell CEO slots to cover the cab as a result of problems with upscaling the production of the NEO engines?


As far as I know, Airbus oversold the ceo rather than needing additional orders. The engine and therefore delivery troubles led to pulling some ceo deliveries forward, but Airbus will because of the amount of undelivered A320 family ceos stop the ceo production later than planned, we will definitely see ceos still produced in 2019. The ceo Backlog was end of May 564 frames, there were ceo orders in Paris now.


They are still selling the CEO, so there seem to be slots available, 2019 isn't that far out when ordering an aircraft.


But Airbus should be able to fill every slot with a neo in 2019, the backlog of A320 family neos is that enormous. So I do not expect the A320 family ceos being sold especially cheaply to fill a void, only less expensive than a neo.
 
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Polot
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:16 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Polot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

Why should they be dirt cheap, apart from of course being the least expensive wide body on the market anyway? I do not believe that Airbus is selling the A330ceo without making a good profit.

Airbus has enough orders of A330ceo, a backlog of 127, to float the production line until the A330-900 comes on line next year. The combined neo ceo Backlog of 335 frames is, at the current production rate of 6 frames a month, or 72 frames a year, good for well over four years. Airbus was rather thinking of increasing production rates.

1) Dirt cheap does not mean that Airbus is not making money with the plane.
2) the Neo delays likely open some last minute slots for the Ceo.
3) You know perfectly well that just because the backlog techinically can be built in 4 years doesn't mean Airbus actually have the next 4 years of A330 production filled out. AirAsia has A330neos deliveries stretching out to ~10 years from now for example. Same possible story with the Ceo, considering they will be built along side Neos for a while.


1) Fire sales under price is usually called dirt cheap. You do not talk about dirt cheap if you make a reasonable profit.
2) That is why Airbus did not increase the build rate to 7 a month again. And the delay is as it is 3 month, that means 18 frames more to be produced as ceos before the production neos are build, or Airbus builds some neo gliders, that stand around for a few weeks.
3) That is why I talk about the combined backlog, I assume orders for the ceo rather than neo are done, because the buyer is in a hurry to get the frame.

1) dirt cheap is a relative term. It just means much cheaper than typical. It doesn't automatically mean a loss.
3) not necessarily. Putting aside F and MRTT orders where the customer have no choice but to get ceos, airlines usually like to spread deliveries out, not get planes all once (obviously not talking about top up orders for a handful of frames). They may have other motives for stretching the ceo deliveries such as financial difficulties, slowing demand, capex concerns, etc as well.
 
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Polot
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:18 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

As far as I know, Airbus oversold the ceo rather than needing additional orders. The engine and therefore delivery troubles led to pulling some ceo deliveries forward, but Airbus will because of the amount of undelivered A320 family ceos stop the ceo production later than planned, we will definitely see ceos still produced in 2019. The ceo Backlog was end of May 564 frames, there were ceo orders in Paris now.


They are still selling the CEO, so there seem to be slots available, 2019 isn't that far out when ordering an aircraft.


But Airbus should be able to fill every slot with a neo in 2019, the backlog of A320 family neos is that enormous. So I do not expect the A320 family ceos being sold especially cheaply to fill a void, only less expensive than a neo.

Airbus could be able to, not sure about CFM and PW.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:37 am

Polot wrote:
1) dirt cheap is a relative term. It just means much cheaper than typical. It doesn't automatically mean a loss.
3) not necessarily. Putting aside F and MRTT orders where the customer have no choice but to get ceos, airlines usually like to spread deliveries out, not get planes all once (obviously not talking about top up orders for a handful of frames). They may have other motives for stretching the ceo deliveries such as financial difficulties, slowing demand, capex concerns, etc as well.


1) It still means cheaper than usual and it is implying a "fire sale". There are no signs of that. It does not simply mean the least expensive solution.
 
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:01 pm

Forum Moderator
 
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A330freak
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:21 pm

Not a new order as such but an interesting lease placement. Aercap places 2 A321neoLRs with Primera Air, which currently operates only 737s. Interestingly in the press release it says Primera will operate 8 A321neos so they must have leased the 6 A321s from somewhere else in previously unannounced deals (or they're about to order some from Airbus)
http://www.aercap.com/newsroom/press-re ... 21lr-aircr
Image
Last edited by A330freak on Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Someone83
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:29 pm

A330freak wrote:
Not a new order as such but an interesting lease placement. Aercap places 2 A321neoLRs with Primera Air, which currently operates only 737s. Interestingly in the Press release it says Primera will operate 8 A321neos so they must have leased the 6 A321s from somewhere else in previously unannounced deals (or they're about to order some from Airbus)


Interesting as they in May ordered 737-9MAX, both from Boeing and through leasing

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... io-437120/
 
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:50 pm

...and another "no MAX/NG customer will order A321Neo" a.net legend goes down the toilet. xD
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redalert2fan
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:55 pm

An interesting order:

Aviation financier and lessor Stellwagen has signed a firm order for 12 Airbus C295 medium transport aircraft. This deal also includes 12 options.

http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-re ... craft.html
 
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MoKa777
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:08 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Polot wrote:
1) dirt cheap is a relative term. It just means much cheaper than typical. It doesn't automatically mean a loss.
3) not necessarily. Putting aside F and MRTT orders where the customer have no choice but to get ceos, airlines usually like to spread deliveries out, not get planes all once (obviously not talking about top up orders for a handful of frames). They may have other motives for stretching the ceo deliveries such as financial difficulties, slowing demand, capex concerns, etc as well.


1) It still means cheaper than usual and it is implying a "fire sale". There are no signs of that. It does not simply mean the least expensive solution.


Oh gosh... it is common wisdom that both manufacturers (not one more than the other or just one) are able and very willing to sell end of line aircraft "dirt cheap".

It does not mean that they are making a loss. It is also possible that production costs have become so low after 20+ years that an aircraft can be sold for "dirt cheap" and still make a considerable profit, possibly even higher than a manufacturer selling equally "dirt cheap" aircraft to capture market share or not lose customers with a new yet-to-be-paid-off production line.

Also, add in the fact that it was a sale to airline that rarely, if ever, purchases new and/or non-"dirt cheap" aircraft and you have a good case for a very good deal being made.

Simple.

All relative and about the words we use, not a vindictive, malicious and unnecessary stab at Airbus.

Boeing, almost certainly, sold 77Ws to UA for "dirt cheap"...

From everything we all collectively know about the business of aviation, it is more likely than not...
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thepinkmachine
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:16 pm

A330freak wrote:
Not a new order as such but an interesting lease placement. Aercap places 2 A321neoLRs with Primera Air, which currently operates only 737s. Interestingly in the press release it says Primera will operate 8 A321neos so they must have leased the 6 A321s from somewhere else in previously unannounced deals (or they're about to order some from Airbus)
http://www.aercap.com/newsroom/press-re ... 21lr-aircr
Image


Interesting... They have recently announced transatlantic flight from RIX...
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:55 pm

redalert2fan wrote:
An interesting order:

Aviation financier and lessor Stellwagen has signed a firm order for 12 Airbus C295 medium transport aircraft. This deal also includes 12 options.

http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-re ... craft.html



For Canada's fixed-wing SAR requirement... :confused:
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:16 pm

Leahy interview on day 3 of PAS17
Speaking to Reuters on day three of the June 19-25 show, Leahy said: "We will have some orders today, but today's isn't going to be one of our record air shows."

Regarding orders that Airbus could get over the rest of the show, Leahy added that such deals would be "nothing big, but real stuff" - an indirect reference to conversions from existing models that account for more than half of the orders announced so far for Boeing's newly launched 737 MAX 10.


http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-airsho ... KKBN19C0WD
 
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:25 pm

I can understand JL's annoyance - the 737-10 has cost Airbus a not-insignificant number of potential A321 orders from current MAX customers who wanted a 230-seat frame as well as putting downward pressure on future ASPs now that there is real competition (in terms of capacity).
 
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qf789
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:29 pm

Summary of Airbus orders/commitments after Day 3

GECAS 100 x A320/321neo (order)
ALC 12 x A321neo(order)
Viva Air 15 x A320ceo, 35 x A320neo (MOU)
Ethiopian 10 x A350-900 (order, previously disclosed)
CDB Aviation 30 x A320neo, 15 x A321neo (MOU)
Delta 10 x A321ceo (order)
Hifly 2 x A330-200 (order)
WizzAir 10 x A321ceo

15 x A320ceo
65 x A320neo
20 x A321ceo
27 x A321neo
100 x A320neo family (breakdown not known)
2 x A330-200
10 x A350-900

134 orders
95 MOU
10 undisclosed

Total 239
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Bricktop
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:31 pm

sadiqutp wrote:
Leahy interview on day 3 of PAS17
Speaking to Reuters on day three of the June 19-25 show, Leahy said: "We will have some orders today, but today's isn't going to be one of our record air shows."

Regarding orders that Airbus could get over the rest of the show, Leahy added that such deals would be "nothing big, but real stuff" - an indirect reference to conversions from existing models that account for more than half of the orders announced so far for Boeing's newly launched 737 MAX 10.


http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-airsho ... KKBN19C0WD

Slightly off topic, but since JL brought it up...

Is there any data on how many neos were conversions from ceos, or how many A321's were from A320's? That kind of transaction is par for the course at both A and B. JL may think he's getting a cute dig in but it's pretty petty IMO.
 
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:44 pm

sadiqutp wrote:
Leahy interview on day 3 of PAS17
Speaking to Reuters on day three of the June 19-25 show, Leahy said: "We will have some orders today, but today's isn't going to be one of our record air shows."

Regarding orders that Airbus could get over the rest of the show, Leahy added that such deals would be "nothing big, but real stuff" - an indirect reference to conversions from existing models that account for more than half of the orders announced so far for Boeing's newly launched 737 MAX 10.


http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-airsho ... KKBN19C0WD


Hah...the approximately 450 orders/commitments are not "real". Yes, Boeing has had about 200 conversions, but they've also sold and gotten commitments for a lot more than Airbus this show.
 
astuteman
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:08 pm

Bricktop wrote:
sadiqutp wrote:
Leahy interview on day 3 of PAS17
Speaking to Reuters on day three of the June 19-25 show, Leahy said: "We will have some orders today, but today's isn't going to be one of our record air shows."

Regarding orders that Airbus could get over the rest of the show, Leahy added that such deals would be "nothing big, but real stuff" - an indirect reference to conversions from existing models that account for more than half of the orders announced so far for Boeing's newly launched 737 MAX 10.


http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-airsho ... KKBN19C0WD

Slightly off topic, but since JL brought it up...

Is there any data on how many neos were conversions from ceos, or how many A321's were from A320's? That kind of transaction is par for the course at both A and B. JL may think he's getting a cute dig in but it's pretty petty IMO.


I think all of the A32X are "real".
If memory serves, the ET 10 x A350-900 were previously unidentified orders, hence not new.

Rgds
 
Bricktop
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:30 pm

astuteman wrote:
I think all of the A32X are "real".
If memory serves, the ET 10 x A350-900 were previously unidentified orders, hence not new.

Rgds

Yeah, not questioning that re PAS2017. I am talking historically. Namely upgauging orders is nothing new, and JL is being more than a little disingenuous in that comment. But if that's all he's got in rebuttal, it is what it is.
 
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:09 pm

I was expecting some A350-1000 orders
 
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Richard28
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:35 pm

From the perspective of a new plane launch, conversions do not bring in much in the way of additional capital, as that had already been committed to the previous frames.

I guess the point is more about return on the 737-10 investment for Boeing, and the need to make it profitable. New orders are needed for this.

Airbus has already spent the R&D on the A320 and A321, so conversions for airbus at this stage are slightly different.

Boeing seems to have done a good job for a slightly smaller and shorter range competitor and looks like it will be a success in that segment.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:03 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

As far as I know, Airbus oversold the ceo rather than needing additional orders. The engine and therefore delivery troubles led to pulling some ceo deliveries forward, but Airbus will because of the amount of undelivered A320 family ceos stop the ceo production later than planned, we will definitely see ceos still produced in 2019. The ceo Backlog was end of May 564 frames, there were ceo orders in Paris now.


They are still selling the CEO, so there seem to be slots available, 2019 isn't that far out when ordering an aircraft.


But Airbus should be able to fill every slot with a neo in 2019, the backlog of A320 family neos is that enormous. So I do not expect the A320 family ceos being sold especially cheaply to fill a void, only less expensive than a neo.

I've been hearing CEOs are selling for $20 million less than 3 to 5 years ago. Cheap is relative, but having both engine vendors both the ramp, with CFM favoring Boeing on the LEAP?

Worse, the NEO engines increase the per engine costs. Neither NEO or MAX is anywhere close to the projected return.

Airbus isn't losing money. CFM... Probably. Better than the alternative. Pratt? Losing money on every NEO, making money on V2500s.

Lightsaber
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kitplane01
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:27 am

redalert2fan wrote:
An interesting order:

Aviation financier and lessor Stellwagen has signed a firm order for 12 Airbus C295 medium transport aircraft. This deal also includes 12 options.

http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-re ... craft.html


This is actually the most interesting order so far. No leasing company has *ever* ordered a CS295 before. No leasing company has ever ordered anything from Airbus Space and Defense before.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:29 am

Devilfish wrote:
redalert2fan wrote:
An interesting order:

Aviation financier and lessor Stellwagen has signed a firm order for 12 Airbus C295 medium transport aircraft. This deal also includes 12 options.

http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-re ... craft.html



For Canada's fixed-wing SAR requirement... :confused:


I didn't think that was decided yet????
 
Planeflyer
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:10 am

Lightsaber, w low fuel here for the next 15-20 years any idea how does impacts operating costs for CEO and neo. Let's assume asp of $55 per bbl over 20 years
 
juliuswong
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:32 am

Guys, the two A332ceo placed by HiFly is meant for Nepal Airlines. http://kathmandupost.ekantipur.com/news ... i-fly.html

What a massive jump from current B757 and A320! I wish them all the best.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
anshabhi
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:58 am

juliuswong wrote:
Guys, the two A332ceo placed by HiFly is meant for Nepal Airlines. http://kathmandupost.ekantipur.com/news ... i-fly.html

What a massive jump from current B757 and A320! I wish them all the best.

Another part of South Asian growth story.
 
Someone83
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:26 am

juliuswong wrote:
Guys, the two A332ceo placed by HiFly is meant for Nepal Airlines. http://kathmandupost.ekantipur.com/news ... i-fly.html

What a massive jump from current B757 and A320! I wish them all the best.


Not sure what HiFly pays for them, but it seems like NAC is paying $104,8 millions for each
 
Theseus
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Re: 2017 Paris Air Show - Airbus News And Orders

Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:44 am

anshabhi wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
Guys, the two A332ceo placed by HiFly is meant for Nepal Airlines. http://kathmandupost.ekantipur.com/news ... i-fly.html

What a massive jump from current B757 and A320! I wish them all the best.

Another part of South Asian growth story.


Not sure, I remember reading about expansion plans towards Europe.
Right now the standard routing is via airlines like QR. I would be glad to see Nepal Airlines to also be part of this market.

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