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anshabhi
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Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:40 am

China fined Emirates Airline 29,000 yuan ($4,270) and barred the carrier from expanding its operations in the country for six months, citing two incidents that violated air-safety norms.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... s-in-china

I wonder if that Taiwan flag row is one of these incidents....
 
Airlinerdude
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:07 am

It actually says right in the article what the incidents were:

During an Emirates flight on April 17, the crew misunderstood instructions and flew at a wrong altitude above Urumqi in Xinjiang, according to CAAC.


In another incident on May 18, the airline’s radio communications were cut off over the same region. Representatives for Emirates didn’t immediately respond to a email seeking comments on the fine.
 
448205
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:12 am

Pay low dollar for crews, get low dollar outcomes.
 
skyhawkmatthew
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:17 am

The CAAC has a history of doing this. Despite the fact that often the 'violations' are heavily contributed to by the standard of ATC and R/T in China, it is always the (usually foreign) aircraft crew that get hit with these 'demerit points.'
 
Chaostheory
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:46 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Pay low dollar for crews, get low dollar outcomes.


You're displaying your ignorance here.

As Skyhawk suggested, this is more to cover China's own failings and save face. Anyone who has experience of flying over Xinjiang and North Pakistan will know comms are patchy at best.
 
cuban8
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:10 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Pay low dollar for crews, get low dollar outcomes.


I believe Emirates pays their flight crew more than the majority of the world airlines.
 
TerminalD
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:20 am

anshabhi wrote:
China fined Emirates Airline 29,000 yuan ($4,270) and barred the carrier from expanding its operations in the country for six months, citing two incidents that violated air-safety norms.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... s-in-china

I wonder if that Taiwan flag row is one of these incidents....

$4000 fine? Lol

Surely they will need govt subsidies to pay a fine of that magnitude. ;)
 
ExDubai
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:28 am

[url][/url]
skyhawkmatthew wrote:
The CAAC has a history of doing this. Despite the fact that often the 'violations' are heavily contributed to by the standard of ATC and R/T in China, it is always the (usually foreign) aircraft crew that get hit with these 'demerit points.'

Yepp, that's how it is.
 
emiratesdriver
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:31 am

skyhawkmatthew wrote:
The CAAC has a history of doing this. Despite the fact that often the 'violations' are heavily contributed to by the standard of ATC and R/T in China, it is always the (usually foreign) aircraft crew that get hit with these 'demerit points.'


Much closer to the reality. SOP in Chinese airspace to avoid weather..declare a Mayday or PAN, get vectored towards terrain, get instructions from a controller that speaks worse engrish than the local takeaway owner, get issued taxi instructions whilst still on the landing roll at 100kts..
Make no mistake, EK, CX, BA, LH plus many other foreign carriers battle with Chinese ATC incompetence every day, but remember Chinese ATC NEVER gets it wrong.
Last edited by emiratesdriver on Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
ExDubai
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:31 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Pay low dollar for crews, get low dollar outcomes.

Sorry but that's bs. Did you ever had the pleasure to deal with the chinese ATC?
And the pay for the EK flight crew isn't low, it's somehow avarage.
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:39 am

Emirates can't catch a break anywhere these days, it seems.

(I realize this is very minor, but just saying)
 
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sq421
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:52 am

At least, they didn't decide to shut off their air space for EK flights.
 
AJCNL
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:00 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Pay low dollar for crews, get low dollar outcomes.


Is that comment based on fact, or is it just blind prejudice?
 
Ipoh22
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:49 am

If Chinese ATC is so bad how come air safety in China improved so much in the last decade? Just because their English is not great, they are less intelligent than say US ATC? Doesn't take long for idiotic posts to show up on these forums.
 
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chrisnh
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:53 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Pay low dollar for crews, get low dollar outcomes.

Or, to be equally hyperbolic about United:
"Hire thuggish employees, get thuggish treatment."
 
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sq421
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:54 am

Ipoh22 wrote:
If Chinese ATC is so bad how come air safety in China improved so much in the last decade? Just because their English is not great, they are less intelligent than say US ATC? Doesn't take long for idiotic posts to show up on these forums.


The issue ain't about the how good or bad the Chinese ATC are, it's how the rules are designed and fines imposed. It's not just EK who has been penalised, it's other airlines like CX and LH too which other posters have mentioned. The Chinese aren't ready to accept mistakes by one of their own.
 
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thekorean
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:02 am

China fining foreign companies for safety violation. Imagine that.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:39 am

Spiderguy252 wrote:
Emirates can't catch a break anywhere these days, it seems.

(I realize this is very minor, but just saying)


To put it differently it got lot of slack in the past for variety of reasons.

While China ATC may not be the best, PR team makes sure such news are not covered anywhere in the world.

There was a loss of separation incident over Canada, one of the worlds best ATCs out there and it wasn't even verbal communication.
http://avherald.com/h?article=47ce55d1

If I hazard a guess this thread will be locked very quickly.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:42 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Pay low dollar for crews, get low dollar outcomes.


Certainly true of Chinese ATC from all the stories I've heard. :yes:
 
intothinair
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:18 pm

Why are so many people complaining here? EK are a visitor to China. They broke the rules and now they are being fined for it. Sounds pretty fair to me. Next time they should have more respect for the rules just like the Chinese carriers do, and then it wont happen again.

China will soon become the worlds largest aviation market. They have all the bargaining power in the world and they are taking advantage of it. Its nothing personal, its just business.
 
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jnev3289
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:54 pm

Honesty, what is the point of a $4,000 fine? That's pretty much nothing. Just restrict them from expanding service in the next 6 months and skip the odd, toothless fine.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:05 pm

Ipoh22 wrote:
If Chinese ATC is so bad how come air safety in China improved so much in the last decade? Just because their English is not great, they are less intelligent than say US ATC? Doesn't take long for idiotic posts to show up on these forums.


Iv never had much of a problem with China however they are not flexible with weather. The entire country is considered military airspace except for commercial corridors. For this reason if you need to deviate around a thunderstorm the controller needs to get approval from the military. This delay could cause serious issues (EX: AA 787 in PEK). SO the procedure is to ask and if you get nothing declare a PAN PAN PAN and deviate at your discretion. China does not particularly like this.....

With the growth of air traffic in China these corridors are getting very busy and that is not safe.......
 
MoonC
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:09 pm

intothinair wrote:
Why are so many people complaining here? EK are a visitor to China. They broke the rules and now they are being fined for it. Sounds pretty fair to me. Next time they should have more respect for the rules just like the Chinese carriers do, and then it wont happen again.

China will soon become the worlds largest aviation market. They have all the bargaining power in the world and they are taking advantage of it. Its nothing personal, its just business.


It would be easier to follow "the rules" if Chinese ATC knew how to properly communicate in English, just saying.
 
sadiqutp
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:39 pm

:rotfl:
What a convenient fine . Whoever is saying it's inspired by protectionism is surly crazy :stirthepot:
 
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zeke
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:46 pm

intothinair wrote:
Why are so many people complaining here? EK are a visitor to China. They broke the rules and now they are being fined for it. Sounds pretty fair to me. Next time they should have more respect for the rules just like the Chinese carriers do, and then it wont happen again.

China will soon become the worlds largest aviation market. They have all the bargaining power in the world and they are taking advantage of it. Its nothing personal, its just business.


Chinese airspace is the joke that everyone laughs at, the fact you cannot see it just proves everyone's point, everyone else is wrong china is correct.

For a start get rid of metric flight levels, they are non standard. Threat to safety.

Second, bar everyone from Chinese airspace that does not speak english, that includes ATC. ATC should get fined for every transmission in Chinese. Threat to safety.

Third, implement datalink so we don't need to hear someone with a mouthful of marballs and eating fish tail noodles while working telling us off for not listening in, if you actually could pronounce Emirates there would be half a chance to get a reply.

Fourth, every Chinese aircraft that steps on another radio call because they did not listen out before transmitting gets fined equally. That is the biggest threat to aviation in China, you cannot teach common sense because it is not common. It shows, a serious threat to safety.

Aviation whilst a business, the travelling public does not like it when you start killing people. Two Chinese aircraft have recently come close hitting the hills around Hong Kong, another came off the runway, blocking it. Another aircraft from Shenzhen recently decided it would just fly south to avoid weather going straight through the HKG TMA without knowing where they were and not speaking to anyone. That's not good planning or safe practices, that is just luck that has stopped killing people.

How much did these airlines get fined ? Nothing.

Did they have their expansion plans cut because of it ? No

Is there a double standard ? You bet ya
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:59 pm

zeke wrote:
intothinair wrote:

every Chinese aircraft that steps on another radio call because they did not listen out before transmitting gets fined equally. That is the biggest threat to aviation in China, you cannot teach common sense because it is not common. It shows, a serious threat to safety.




This ^^^^^ It is maddening nobody listens everyone just talks whenever they feel like it, The amount of blocked transmissions is horrible, and 90% of it is in Chinese.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:04 pm

zeke wrote:
Chinese airspace is the joke...


Is there any perfect airspace in the world?

European guard frequency is a playground for LCC pilots and teenagers on ground alike.
UK guard frequency is filled with practice pans.
Indian airspace is a joke.
American ATCs use slang and expect everyone to understand.

Just to name a few.

CPDLC over Canada shouldn't be a non-brainier, correct?
 
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zeke
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:04 pm

I don't know how many times I have been given a clearance and before ATC has even finished or I have had a chance to read back before someone overtransmits.
 
ExDubai
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:22 pm

zeke wrote:
Fourth, every Chinese aircraft that steps on another radio call because they did not listen out before transmitting gets fined equally. That is the biggest threat to aviation in China, you cannot teach common sense because it is not common. It shows, a serious threat to safety.


That would send a couple of local airlines into bankruptcy :D
Last edited by ExDubai on Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
dassal
Posts: 26
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:24 pm

Power rules....if they keep developing at the pace they do now, they might ask for communication with atc in mandarin one day!
 
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zeke
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:28 pm

dassal wrote:
Power rules....if they keep developing at the pace they do now, they might ask for communication with atc in mandarin one day!


There are many different spoken Chinese languages.
 
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c933103
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:44 pm

zeke wrote:
dassal wrote:
Power rules....if they keep developing at the pace they do now, they might ask for communication with atc in mandarin one day!


There are many different spoken Chinese languages.

Don't worry.. they will all be standardize into standard Mandarin and cease to exist!
 
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EK413
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:52 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Pay low dollar for crews, get low dollar outcomes.


Do you even have a clue as to how much EK crew earn?!? More than likely the crew didn't understand Chinese ATC resulting the error as already mentioned by many posts above.

EK413
 
FrancisBegbie
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:00 pm

Isnt the 'No expansion' part much more significant than the token fine? I don't know anything about UAE-China bilateral, but with the recent downsizing of EK's US ops they have some extra slack in the fleet and may be looking for alternatives...?
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:05 pm

FrancisBegbie wrote:
Isnt the 'No expansion' part much more significant than the token fine? I don't know anything about UAE-China bilateral, but with the recent downsizing of EK's US ops they have some extra slack in the fleet and may be looking for alternatives...?


It's only 6 months
 
maxudaskin
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Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:33 pm

Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:36 pm

TerminalD wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
China fined Emirates Airline 29,000 yuan ($4,270) and barred the carrier from expanding its operations in the country for six months, citing two incidents that violated air-safety norms.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... s-in-china

I wonder if that Taiwan flag row is one of these incidents....

$4000 fine? Lol

Surely they will need govt subsidies to pay a fine of that magnitude. ;)


Considering the A380 burns roughly $25,000 of fuel per hour, this is not even a slap on the wrist... more like a mosquito bite.
 
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VCEflyboy
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:49 pm

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if this had to do with the EK crew wearing the taiwan flag. This is a very big deal in china.
 
dassal
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:50 pm

[quote="maxudaskin"][quote="TerminalD"][quote="anshabhi"][i]China fined Emirates Air

Considering the A380 burns roughly $25,000 of fuel per hour...

Hope you are dentist....
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:57 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
FrancisBegbie wrote:
Isnt the 'No expansion' part much more significant than the token fine? I don't know anything about UAE-China bilateral, but with the recent downsizing of EK's US ops they have some extra slack in the fleet and may be looking for alternatives...?


It's only 6 months

I thought EK had maxed out China rights? Seriously, does anyone know the answer.

To other posts, this is Chinese ATC trying to save face. It took me until late in life to realize saving face is let me bully you.

Lightsaber
 
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c933103
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:05 am

lightsaber wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
FrancisBegbie wrote:
Isnt the 'No expansion' part much more significant than the token fine? I don't know anything about UAE-China bilateral, but with the recent downsizing of EK's US ops they have some extra slack in the fleet and may be looking for alternatives...?


It's only 6 months

I thought EK had maxed out China rights? Seriously, does anyone know the answer.

To other posts, this is Chinese ATC trying to save face. It took me until late in life to realize saving face is let me bully you.

Lightsaber

In the previous incident regarding Taiwanese flag, it's said that the reason behind airline's initial decision was to further their expansion in China. Perhaps they were going to sign new treaty...? But then again, what is the existing limit for EK?
 
skyhawkmatthew
Posts: 480
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:57 pm

zeke wrote:
intothinair wrote:
Why are so many people complaining here? EK are a visitor to China. They broke the rules and now they are being fined for it. Sounds pretty fair to me. Next time they should have more respect for the rules just like the Chinese carriers do, and then it wont happen again.

China will soon become the worlds largest aviation market. They have all the bargaining power in the world and they are taking advantage of it. Its nothing personal, its just business.


Chinese airspace is the joke that everyone laughs at, the fact you cannot see it just proves everyone's point, everyone else is wrong china is correct.

For a start get rid of metric flight levels, they are non standard. Threat to safety.

Second, bar everyone from Chinese airspace that does not speak english, that includes ATC. ATC should get fined for every transmission in Chinese. Threat to safety.

Third, implement datalink so we don't need to hear someone with a mouthful of marballs and eating fish tail noodles while working telling us off for not listening in, if you actually could pronounce Emirates there would be half a chance to get a reply.

Fourth, every Chinese aircraft that steps on another radio call because they did not listen out before transmitting gets fined equally. That is the biggest threat to aviation in China, you cannot teach common sense because it is not common. It shows, a serious threat to safety.

Aviation whilst a business, the travelling public does not like it when you start killing people. Two Chinese aircraft have recently come close hitting the hills around Hong Kong, another came off the runway, blocking it. Another aircraft from Shenzhen recently decided it would just fly south to avoid weather going straight through the HKG TMA without knowing where they were and not speaking to anyone. That's not good planning or safe practices, that is just luck that has stopped killing people.

How much did these airlines get fined ? Nothing.

Did they have their expansion plans cut because of it ? No

Is there a double standard ? You bet ya


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
I think this is the first time I 100%, completely, agree with zeke. Every word of the above is right.
 
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zeke
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:30 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
zeke wrote:
Chinese airspace is the joke...


Is there any perfect airspace in the world?

European guard frequency is a playground for LCC pilots and teenagers on ground alike.
UK guard frequency is filled with practice pans.
Indian airspace is a joke.
American ATCs use slang and expect everyone to understand.

Just to name a few.

CPDLC over Canada shouldn't be a non-brainier, correct?


Europe and the UK are very good, I am normally on datalink most of the time there. They also have their ATC systems setup to check what the pilots put into the mode control panel or FM matches with the clearance. Say for example the clearance was FL360 and you enter FL340, ATC can see that on their screen as another check.

Flow control in Europe is easy. Flow control in China is a pain, foreign carriers can get all their pax onboard and call ready then told 12 hr delay. A mainland Chinese carrier with doors open loading cargo carrier calls ready, they are given an immediate slot. HKG ATC does not play that game, first aircraft in the queue gets the slot, the guy with the doors open loading cargo and pax in placed in the queue. HKG ATC don't issue the slots, the slots to enter Chinese airspace are issued by China, the controllers telephone them to get the slot times.

Weather deviation in China is near impossible the tracks are so tight with "military" airspace each side. The military only fly in blue shies during the day, when there is weather or at night you still cannot get weather deviations. Weather deviations in Europe are easy.

To sum it up, western controllers mentality is one of flexibility, Chinese controllers mentality is fixed and ridged.
 
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TOGA10
Posts: 274
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Re: Emirates Fined After Two 'Unsafe Incidents' in China

Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:14 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
zeke wrote:
Chinese airspace is the joke...


Is there any perfect airspace in the world?

European guard frequency is a playground for LCC pilots and teenagers on ground alike.

How exactly do you hear it is the LCC pilots talking on guard? I agree on the fact that some people tend not to be as professional as they should be regarding the use of Guard freq, however flying over Europe on a daily base, I have yet to find out how your typical FR/U2/W6 pilot sounds.
On topic, sounds like another example of 'We are never wrong-itis', Chinese ATC should start to think about working on their English language standards first.

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