DTW-NRT will be the first international route.

Delta Airlines on Saturday (17JUN17) opened bookings for its planned Airbus A350-900XWB operations, currently scheduled to enter international operation in late-October 2017, replacing 777-200ER aircraft. Planned operation as follow.

eff 30OCT17 Detroit – Tokyo Narita 1 daily
eff 18NOV17 Detroit – Seoul Incheon Alternating days, daily from 16DEC17
eff 17JAN18 Detroit – Beijing Alternating days, daily from 23FEB18

Article
http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... es-in-w17/


1st Airbus A350 Delta Airlines N501DN by Jujug Spotting, on Flickr

Cool. I would have expected them to use it on a shorter route for the first weeks until the crew is more familiar with it and the second frame has arrived.

First flight on 30 October...seats wide open!

And if you look at the schedule end in May the 350 will fly NRT, ICN, and PEK <- woah didn't see PEK before PVG. PVG will remain a 77L for now.

ICN is the second destination to be served by the DL A359. Effective from 17DEC17 (Arriving ICN on a following day).

A350 wrote:

Cool. I would have expected them to use it on a shorter route for the first weeks until the crew is more familiar with it and the second frame has arrived.

They will. This is DL first "regular" A350 route.

Using the term flight in the title is a little misleading. This is the first route, not flight (which will probably be something like DTW-ATL).

That makes more sense

Does the a350 have the legs to fly JFK east Asia?

Well it only currently does SFO-SIN direct, only 17 hrs.

VCEflyboy wrote:

Does the a350 have the legs to fly JFK east Asia?

It sure does. Spec range is 15,000km so it's a 16-hour aircraft at the very least.

Is there a trail flight to AMS planned?

As I feared, no more Comfort+ cabin. Huge blow for Delta elites

Eeerily silent, considering all the crying/whining/farting/tantrums about there being "no chance" that DL would base its flagship aircraft's initial routes out of DTW.....

flymco753 wrote:

And if you look at the schedule end in May the 350 will fly NRT, ICN, and PEK <- woah didn't see PEK before PVG. PVG will remain a 77L for now.

Not really surprising. PVG is a big focus/partner market for them, so only makes sense that the aircraft capable of toting more would go there.

ual777newpaint wrote:

As I feared, no more Comfort+ cabin. Huge blow for Delta elites

Whaa whaa.

Would swap that for a real premium economy ANY day, seeing as it's going to be hard as hell for upgrades/systemwides into J nowadays. Looks like cold cash is going to be the only way in-- fair enough.

And before anyone says it, yeah I know it won't be free "upgrade" from standard Y for elites... but as with all things in life, if ya want something better-- be prepared to PAY for it.

ual777newpaint wrote:

As I feared, no more Comfort+ cabin. Huge blow for Delta elites

LAX772LR wrote:

Would swap that for a real premium economy ANY day, seeing as it's going to be hard as hell for upgrades/systemwides into J nowadays. Looks like cold cash is going to be the only way in-- fair enough.

And before anyone says it, yeah I know it won't be free "upgrade" from standard Y for elites... but as with all things in life, if ya want something better-- be prepared to PAY for it.

Very interesting. I didn't even realize that this was being considered/rumored, and just assumed Delta's A350s would have four classes/sub-classes - like AA did with its 789s. Delta has confirmed that the 777s will get Premium Select, too - does this portend that those aircraft will then lose Comfort+? And what is most likely for the rest of the longhaul fleet that "may be added" to the list getting Premium Select? Will it be either Premium Select or Comfort+ but not both?

VCEflyboy wrote:

Does the a350 have the legs to fly JFK east Asia?

Yeah. It has some of the longest legs in the industry.
It could even do JFK-AKL

LAX772LR wrote:

Eeerily silent, considering all the crying/whining/farting/tantrums about there being "no chance" that DL would base its flagship aircraft's initial routes out of DTW.....

Don't CEO Ed, Chairman Frank, and the remaining BOD study anut daily and take all their network planning cues based on the most whining on anut and not from the DL network planning department?

WPvsMW wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

Eeerily silent, considering all the crying/whining/farting/tantrums about there being "no chance" that DL would base its flagship aircraft's initial routes out of DTW.....

Don't CEO Ed, Chairman Frank, and the remaining BOD study anut daily and take all their network planning cues based on the most whining on anut and not from the DL network planning department?

Don't be a fool, of course not!

They find the route that makes the most while costing the least (always from DTW, btw) and then say "But screw that, we're putting it into ATL"... because spite-capital is worth so much more than market revenue.

Duh.

Surprised the A350 isn't being used on LAX-SYD. I thought I had heard DL wanted to put the 350 on the SYD route as a way to increase competitiveness with QF/AA/UA but I suppose the 77L is equally suited for the LAX-SYD run.

LAX772LR wrote:

ual777newpaint wrote:

As I feared, no more Comfort+ cabin. Huge blow for Delta elites

Whaa whaa.

Would swap that for a real premium economy ANY day, seeing as it's going to be hard as hell for upgrades/systemwides into J nowadays. Looks like cold cash is going to be the only way in-- fair enough.

And before anyone says it, yeah I know it won't be free "upgrade" from standard Y for elites... but as with all things in life, if ya want something better-- be prepared to PAY for it.

None of this negates ual777newpaint's point that it's a blow to DL elites. That doesn't mean your point is wrong, but is doesn't make ual777newpaint wrong either. This is a reduction in benefit for elites. Certainly an airline's right to do, but nonetheless a reduction.

ty97 wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

ual777newpaint wrote:

As I feared, no more Comfort+ cabin. Huge blow for Delta elites

Whaa whaa.

Would swap that for a real premium economy ANY day, seeing as it's going to be hard as hell for upgrades/systemwides into J nowadays. Looks like cold cash is going to be the only way in-- fair enough.

And before anyone says it, yeah I know it won't be free "upgrade" from standard Y for elites... but as with all things in life, if ya want something better-- be prepared to PAY for it.

None of this negates ual777newpaint's point that it's a blow to DL elites. That doesn't mean your point is wrong, but is doesn't make ual777newpaint wrong either. This is a reduction in benefit for elites. Certainly an airline's right to do, but nonetheless a reduction.

Not really disagreeing.

IMO the optimal situation would've been to have both Premium and Comfort, but if they're going to make us choose, then it's tough to argue that a separately-attended product is less of a gain than a measly 3-4 more inches in an otherwise standard Y product.... particularly seeing as they can still theoretically get the latter by booking exit.

777Mech wrote:

I'm still waiting on our resident DTW folks to come on and say how this is screwing DTW our of something....

Sure it's an A350 and all, but it's not an hourly flight between DTW-NRT

(disclaimer: I was born and raised in the DTW area as my name suggests so I can talk shit about my hometown every now and then)

Jokes aside, I'm excited to see the A350 despite the novelty of the 747 slowly going away. I grew up always associating that plane with Japan.

Considering I have a week off in late January, a birthday trip to Japan sounds very tempting right now.

This is great to hear. DTW is an excellent and modern facility, and the same goes for the A350. Biggest item of the day, though, is probably that of Delta's new Premium Economy product being published for sale so that we will get to know its price point. Seems to be rolling out a little bit on the high side, but perhaps that's what their prediction algorithm starts with...

And to all the upgrade-whiners here, just stop it. The business model is finally turning away from a dichotomous roulette between a crappy coach seat and a luxurious prime class seat, to a more granular offering, where we can pay for the level of service we want in a way that is in many cases reasonably proportional to the offering.

MarcoPoloWorld wrote:

And to all the upgrade-whiners here, just stop it. The business model is finally turning away from a dichotomous roulette between a crappy coach seat and a luxurious prime class seat, to a more granular offering, where we can pay for the level of service we want in a way that is in many cases reasonably proportional to the offering.

^ This.

Especially for steerage-- of all carriers, DL is the one who merits the least amount of whining:

• They're one of the few airlines in the world still offering 9abreast in all 777s in all Y seats.
• A330s and A350s are configured with their original 8 and 9 abreast offerings, respectively.

How about sea-hkg, will it change to 359 eventually?

cx828 wrote:

How about sea-hkg, will it change to 359 eventually?

I'm sure it will eventually. In the near term? No. SEA-HKG is operated with the smallest possible equipment that has the legs for the route, the A332. In the winter months the route operates less than daily. The A350 would be a big jump in capacity for this new-ish route. DL has tinkered with using the 777 on SEA-HKG but it has never stuck.

cx828 wrote:

How about sea-hkg, will it change to 359 eventually?

If it does, I'm betting it'll be after DL reinstates DTW-HKG, allowing them to turn the aircraft to SEA without having to op a domestic tag.

I just updated the first post with additional routes.

ICN, PEK, and NRT, ex-DTW, on the toast of the town. Here's to network planners at DL.
Now we'll see how much Asian feed "the other mid-West hub" has, and soon how KE fits into the picture. NRT and ICN would be in the JV.
More A359s = more new TPAC routes. I say ex-LAX is next, then ex-SEA, then probably a new TPAC route ex-SLC.

ASQ400 wrote:

VCEflyboy wrote:

Does the a350 have the legs to fly JFK east Asia?

Yeah. It has some of the longest legs in the industry.
It could even do JFK-AKL

Not with a full passenger load, not even remotely. JFK-AKL is 8,800 nm. In Delta's config, I would say the maximum range is 7,700 nm and that needs subtraction for wind and other factors. It can't even do JFK-HKG with a full load. Also, it can reach no point in Asia from JFK with a full passenger load and significant amounts of cargo.

Those are numbers from an Airbus IR presentation, so they will be on the optimistic side of things. The A359 is nowhere near doing JFK-AKL.

aviationaware wrote:

ASQ400 wrote:

VCEflyboy wrote:

Does the a350 have the legs to fly JFK east Asia?

Yeah. It has some of the longest legs in the industry.
It could even do JFK-AKL

Not with a full passenger load, not even remotely. JFK-AKL is 8,800 nm. In Delta's config, I would say the maximum range is 7,700 nm and that needs subtraction for wind and other factors. It can't even do JFK-HKG with a full load. Also, it can reach no point in Asia from JFK with a full passenger load and significant amounts of cargo.

Those are numbers from an Airbus IR presentation, so they will be on the optimistic side of things. The A359 is nowhere near doing JFK-AKL.

The A359-operated SFO-SIN is 400 miles shy of JFK-AKL, bud. SQ's coming 900ULR routes (LAX,JFK) both prove the possibility of AKL on that plane, although possibly not the normal 900.
As for JFK-HKG, it's less than SIN-SFO (a current route of the 900). Evidently, then, JFK-HKG is chump change for it.

ASQ400 wrote:

aviationaware wrote:

ASQ400 wrote:

Yeah. It has some of the longest legs in the industry.
It could even do JFK-AKL

Not with a full passenger load, not even remotely. JFK-AKL is 8,800 nm. In Delta's config, I would say the maximum range is 7,700 nm and that needs subtraction for wind and other factors. It can't even do JFK-HKG with a full load. Also, it can reach no point in Asia from JFK with a full passenger load and significant amounts of cargo.

Those are numbers from an Airbus IR presentation, so they will be on the optimistic side of things. The A359 is nowhere near doing JFK-AKL.

The A359-operated SFO-SIN is 400 miles shy of JFK-AKL, bud. SQ's coming 900ULR routes (LAX,JFK) both prove the possibility of AKL on that plane, although possibly not the normal 900.
As for JFK-HKG, it's less than SIN-SFO (a current route of the 900). Evidently, then, JFK-HKG is chump change for it.

I love how Airbus fanboys always say.....but, but, but SQ does SIN to SFO to the A359 can fly any route on planet Earth!!!


Fact check.....the SIN to SFO flight has zero cargo and limited pax and bags. It by no means could fly AKL to JFK even with a limited load. I would also note the 789 flies SIN to LAX but no Boeing fanboys would claim the legs to do AKL to JFK.

Look...I get you like Airbus and the 359. But keep it real.....okay.

ElroyJetson wrote:

Fact check.....the SIN to SFO flight has zero cargo and limited pax and bags. It by no means could fly AKL to JFK even with a limited load.

As always the payload/range chart is the place to be. JFK-AKL is 7,600 nm, taking the westbound trip into account it would equal ~ 25t payload which is more than the A350-900ULR can do on SIN-SFO.

I would also note the 789 flies SIN to LAX but no Boeing fanboys would claim the legs to do AKL to JFK.

Boeing doesn't offer a 787-9 ULR model, hence there is nothing to claim.

I mixed up nm and statute miles above. I will go into some hole and be ashamed for the rest of the night. Bye.

ElroyJetson wrote:

Fact check.....the SIN to SFO flight has zero cargo and limited pax and bags.
.

Who told you that? I often depart from SFO in the morning. I can tell you from my observation that a good amout of cargo were unloaded after arrival from SIN. Westbound could be a little worse but no way like what you said zero cargo.

KarelXWB wrote:

ElroyJetson wrote:

Fact check.....the SIN to SFO flight has zero cargo and limited pax and bags. It by no means could fly AKL to JFK even with a limited load.

As always the payload/range chart is the place to be. JFK-AKL is 7,600 nm, taking the westbound trip into account it would equal ~ 25t payload which is more than the A350-900ULR can do on SIN-SFO.

I would also note the 789 flies SIN to LAX but no Boeing fanboys would claim the legs to do AKL to JFK.

Boeing doesn't offer a 787-9 ULR model, hence there is nothing to claim.

Here's the deal. The A359ULR can apparently fly SIN-LAX and SIN-JFK,the latter being longer than AKL-JFK. Normal A359 might not be able to pull AKL off ex-JFK, but ULR can. As for the 789, I'd argue it might, since SIN-LAX is only 100mi off and LAX-SIN doesn't have much payload restriction

ElroyJetson wrote:

ASQ400 wrote:

aviationaware wrote:

Not with a full passenger load, not even remotely. JFK-AKL is 8,800 nm. In Delta's config, I would say the maximum range is 7,700 nm and that needs subtraction for wind and other factors. It can't even do JFK-HKG with a full load. Also, it can reach no point in Asia from JFK with a full passenger load and significant amounts of cargo.

Those are numbers from an Airbus IR presentation, so they will be on the optimistic side of things. The A359 is nowhere near doing JFK-AKL.

The A359-operated SFO-SIN is 400 miles shy of JFK-AKL, bud. SQ's coming 900ULR routes (LAX,JFK) both prove the possibility of AKL on that plane, although possibly not the normal 900.
As for JFK-HKG, it's less than SIN-SFO (a current route of the 900). Evidently, then, JFK-HKG is chump change for it.

I love how Airbus fanboys always say.....but, but, but SQ does SIN to SFO to the A359 can fly any route on planet Earth!!!


Fact check.....the SIN to SFO flight has zero cargo and limited pax and bags. It by no means could fly AKL to JFK even with a limited load. I would also note the 789 flies SIN to LAX but no Boeing fanboys would claim the legs to do AKL to JFK.

Look...I get you like Airbus and the 359. But keep it real.....okay.

UA's 789 takes a full load of passengers and some cargo on nearly every flight. Rarely (occasionally in the winter), does it need to block a few seats.

Most days, it won't even need to block seats on the upcoming LAX-SIN leg. Airbus fans never want to admit how great the 787 is.

Polot wrote:

A350 wrote:

Cool. I would have expected them to use it on a shorter route for the first weeks until the crew is more familiar with it and the second frame has arrived.

They will. This is DL first "regular" A350 route.

Using the term flight in the title is a little misleading. This is the first route, not flight (which will probably be something like DTW-ATL).

There's every indication Delta won't be doing domestic proving routes first, at least with passengers.

Anyways, I snagged a great deal on Friday for J out, Y back in the hopes that the 777 placeholder would move to the A350. Sure enough, I was right!

This will be my second inaugural (AA 787 was my first). I'm really looking forward to checking out Suites!

AWACSooner wrote:

First flight on 30 October...seats wide open!

I'm going to nonrev on it on my Birthday, 12 Nov... I'm not holding my breath for a Suite lol

Andrew

FriscoHeavy wrote:

ElroyJetson wrote:

ASQ400 wrote:

The A359-operated SFO-SIN is 400 miles shy of JFK-AKL, bud. SQ's coming 900ULR routes (LAX,JFK) both prove the possibility of AKL on that plane, although possibly not the normal 900.
As for JFK-HKG, it's less than SIN-SFO (a current route of the 900). Evidently, then, JFK-HKG is chump change for it.

I love how Airbus fanboys always say.....but, but, but SQ does SIN to SFO to the A359 can fly any route on planet Earth!!!


Fact check.....the SIN to SFO flight has zero cargo and limited pax and bags. It by no means could fly AKL to JFK even with a limited load. I would also note the 789 flies SIN to LAX but no Boeing fanboys would claim the legs to do AKL to JFK.

Look...I get you like Airbus and the 359. But keep it real.....okay.

UA's 789 takes a full load of passengers and some cargo on nearly every flight. Rarely (occasionally in the winter), does it need to block a few seats.

Most days, it won't even need to block seats on the upcoming LAX-SIN leg. Airbus fans never want to admit how great the 787 is.

I actually do consider the 787 (especially the 9) to be an excellent plane, and I'm not sure why Airbus is bothering with the A330neo parallel with the A350. The 789 probably has the legs to fly AKL-JFK as much as the A359ULR (the LAX-SIN run is comparable to that route).
I believe neither SQ nor UA's current SFO-SIN route has large payload hits (the ULR won't, even though the regular A359 might), although much-longer routes like NY-SIN, PER-LHR, and the hypothetical NYC-AKL would all require some payload cuts on either plane.

FriscoHeavy wrote:

UA's 789 takes a full load of passengers and some cargo on nearly every flight. Rarely (occasionally in the winter), does it need to block a few seats.

Most days, it won't even need to block seats on the upcoming LAX-SIN leg. Airbus fans never want to admit how great the 787 is.

I work for UA in ops. I work this flight 5 days a week, and that's just not true. On the westbound SFO-SIN, 40-45 seats are routinely blocked in Y. They know this will also be the case for LAX-SIN. I have never once seen flight 1 push with a full load in the back, with NRSA left at the gate for weight restrictions.

panam330 wrote:

FriscoHeavy wrote:

UA's 789 takes a full load of passengers and some cargo on nearly every flight. Rarely (occasionally in the winter), does it need to block a few seats.

Most days, it won't even need to block seats on the upcoming LAX-SIN leg. Airbus fans never want to admit how great the 787 is.

I work for UA in ops. I work this flight 5 days a week, and that's just not true. On the westbound SFO-SIN, 40-45 seats are routinely blocked in Y. They know this will also be the case for LAX-SIN. I have never once seen flight 1 push with a full load in the back, with NRSA left at the gate for weight restrictions.

^^That's the people who tell the truth, right here. Payload chart says part of the fact, but not necessarily the exact numbers. There are so many other factors that could more or less alter the overall aircraft performance on the route.

I am actually surprised that SEA-HKG is not more popular; but that's why I am not a fleet planner I suppose. Whilst it would be nice to have the A359 on the SEA route, the fact that this flight is 3x-4x weekly in the winter replaced with NRT service on the off days, tells me everything I need to know. Anyhow, let's see what those crazy people at DL come up with next for HK!

It's sorta amazing just how badly DL has always struggled in the HKG market.

But then again, one thing that contrasts them to their extant peers, is that they've never served HKG from more than one stateside (Lower48) destination at a time. So when it was LAX, then DTW, then SEA, it's always been sort of a geographic limitation for a significant part of their customer base.

By contrast, UA and AA/CX have all parts of the country covered with a 1stop or less; and can start focusing on things like LatAm to HKG and beyond.

hz747300 wrote:

Anyhow, let's see what those crazy people at DL come up with next for HK!

So now that DL will have an airplane that might swing the economics of DTW-HKG back into DL's favor, being able to offer two nonstops and nearly all points of the country 1stop; maybe that'll improve their stateside offering.

Probably won't do much for their HK-side P.O.S. though, as I doubt many people in HKG have any clue who they are. Last two times I was in the city, I scoured the place looking for the slightest hint of DL advertising-- only to find none.

I really wish I could know why they haven't been tripping over themselves to partner with HX, who has intercon codeshare relationships. Or heck, even UO, despite U-FLY.

It could raise awareness of their service in the market significantly, and also provide some southern Chinese feed that CZ can't really help them with, seeing as they don't fly to CAN. But I guess they don't see it that way... yet?

cx828 wrote:

How about sea-hkg, will it change to 359 eventually?

By the end of 2018 to early 2019 all TransPac service will shift to 777/359. Delta wants to compete against foreign asian carriers with its Biz suites.

I am more interested in the pilot group synergies. The full allotment of 25 A350's would replace all 777's and 747's one for one. The A330/330NEO/350 will be a very efficient lineup from a pilot staffing perspective.

A true 767 replacement is still up in the air I suppose.

ual777newpaint wrote:

As I feared, no more Comfort+ cabin. Huge blow for Delta elites

Can't say I'll miss C+ much. I've given up C+ seats a number of times (yes, aisle ones), to take an aisle seat further back with an empty middle next to it. Maybe if C+ had a decent amount of additional recline to go with it's legroom, I'd miss it more. DL used to advertise 50% more recline, but have stopped even making that claim. I suspect they had to reduce it on the aircraft with non-tilting LCD's so people could still see the screen when the person in front of them reclined. Contrast this to Economy Comfort on KL where the additional recline is a full 100% (yes, I've flown in them and, yes, the difference between DL C+ is quite noticeable). I realize there are tall folks where the additional legroom is critical, but for me being of shorter stature, it's just not that big a deal.