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astuteman
Posts: 7124
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:47 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
And the MAX 8 is superior to the A320 NEO across most missions yet EADS claims otherwise. :smile: Look...until there is real world operational data no ones knows for sure. What I think can be safely assumed from the independent analysis that is currently out there....the MAX-10 looks to be very competitive with the A321-Neo.

I say good for Boeing. I freely admit I did not see it coming.


The MAX 8 superior to the A320 NEO on most missions?
That will be why sales of the A320 NEO have been so scarce relative to the 737-8 MAX I guess ........
The current 3 690 sales of the A320NEO alone pretty much match sales of the entire MAX range, not just the 737-8

MrHMSH wrote:
The MAX8's advantage is perhaps 2% or less. I believe 2% is the rough difference between the 737-800 and A320ceo. Easily covered by discounts, commonality. And I'm not sure how Boeing will have closed that gap, given that they've had to make more changes to accommodate the new engine. The MAX10 has a lot of ground to make up on the other hand. The question is how much has Boeing addressed what makes the MAX9 a slow seller, and will the better efficiency be enough to sway customers?


If that.
Yet that Boeing chart represents an 8% advantage to the 737-8 MAX.
something they have claimed from the outset
If that were actually true, we would not see the parity of sales between the A320 and the MAX that we see.

Revelation wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
I didn't expect the 737-10 to compete with the LR version of the A321. The market segment for the LR payload increase isn't that big. I think Boeing is going to compete against that with a new MOM 797 that is optimized for payloads over 200k lbs.

The average stage length for a 737 is around 800-1000 miles. That is where the efficiency of the 737-10 is likely optimized.

Interestingly enough, the 737's Chief Engineer has something to say about its range:

Though Airbus claims its jet has more range, Leverkuhn vehemently challenged that.

He said the Airbus claim is based on adding auxiliary fuel tanks, which airlines add only if they absolutely need the extra range, as they are a maintenance headache.

With two extra auxiliary tanks, the A321neo has slightly more range than the 3,450-mile range of the MAX without such tanks, Leverkuhn said. But Boeing can trump that by adding just one tank to the MAX 10, which extends its range to 3,700 miles.

“Base-to-base airplanes, we have more range,” Leverkuhn said. “If we put one extra tank, we have better range than they have with two.”

Seems he's not giving any ground...

Ref: http://www.seattletimes.com/business/bo ... -air-show/


LOL. He puts up figures which show the -10 having a range with 1 x ACT of 3 200Nm, then says this?

His own figures say that the 737-10 needs an ACT (which the Boeing 737 ACAP says is an additional 3t fuel) just to fly the stated 3 215Nm
That's makes it 23.9 tonnes of fuel on board
An A321 NEO with just 1 x ACT will fly the same 3 200nm on just 20.9 tonnes of fuel (and 22t payload)
With 2 x ACT's it will fly 3 650 Nm at least. And that is with only 23.2 tonnes of fuel on board.

So in fact, the A321 NEO flies a good 450Nm further with 2 x ACT's than the 737-10 MAX does with 1 x ACT.
Which by the way also makes the A321NEO some 14% more efficient than the 737-10 at these long ranges.
Just to put Boeing's "737-10 is 5% better" claim in some context.

And without knowing the MTOW and OEW for certain, we're not even discussing the type of payload a 737-10 will haul out at those ranges.

I like the 737-10 MAX.
I think it will be competitive with the A321NEO on short sectors (like 800nm)
And as this is where most of the sectors tend to be, that's fine.

What I don't like is the marketing bollocks that accompanies it.
On Boeing's own figures, the 737-10 MAX isn't going to get anywhere near the A321 NEO at long ranges

Rgds
 
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Polot
Posts: 10456
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:51 am

flee wrote:
Devilfish wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
The burden of proof is on Boeing. I think they had to do something or completely cede the MOM to EADS.

We'll see if the 737-10 lives up to the hype. I would say so far the market and analysts seem to feel it is a credible alternative to the A321-Neo.

So in that case, would Airbus still have an easy A322 stretch path to compete should Boeing launch an optimized TATL MoM, seeing the latter has a similar option base now too - by just replacing the landing gears :?:

It is interesting to note that the Max 10 orders came mainly from lessors. Lion Air's commitment may not be a new order but a conversion of existing orders.

I would think that Airbus have options - they don't have to respond directly to the Max 10 because the A21N is already competitive and immediately available.

What they might do is perhaps put even more pressure on Boeing in the MoM sector and launch an A322 with new carbon wings and seating about 265 pax in a single LCC class configuration. Range 5000 nm.

This will immediately put pressure on Boeing to launch their MoM. The same thing happened when Airbus launched the A320 Neo and Boeing had no choice but to come in with the Max.

The narrow body market is the most profitable sector of the civil airliner market - neither Boeing nor Airbus will be prepared to cede any market share to the other. Orders are still robust and it will be a very interesting two or three years to come.

There are disadvantages to being the first mover in the MoM, it immediately reveals Airbus's cards and gives Boeing a firm target they need to beat. It isn't a re-engine of an existing product. Even if it comes earlier than Boeing's response the delay might be beneficial for Boeing to give a superior product that Airbus then had to scramble to fully respond to. It will also immediately kill any momentum/pricing premium for the A321LR, the very product that's Boeing is not touching with the 737-10.

Airbus has the upper hand right now, no need to rush things. I suspect they will take a wait and see approach with the MoM.
Last edited by Polot on Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
sv11
Posts: 221
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 1999 6:26 am

Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:14 am

Can this do EWR-Birmingham or other transatlantic routes now done by the 757?

sv11
 
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Polot
Posts: 10456
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:35 am

astuteman wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
And the MAX 8 is superior to the A320 NEO across most missions yet EADS claims otherwise. :smile: Look...until there is real world operational data no ones knows for sure. What I think can be safely assumed from the independent analysis that is currently out there....the MAX-10 looks to be very competitive with the A321-Neo.

I say good for Boeing. I freely admit I did not see it coming.


The MAX 8 superior to the A320 NEO on most missions?
That will be why sales of the A320 NEO have been so scarce relative to the 737-8 MAX I guess ........
The current 3 690 sales of the A320NEO alone pretty much match sales of the entire MAX range, not just the 737-8

MrHMSH wrote:
The MAX8's advantage is perhaps 2% or less. I believe 2% is the rough difference between the 737-800 and A320ceo. Easily covered by discounts, commonality. And I'm not sure how Boeing will have closed that gap, given that they've had to make more changes to accommodate the new engine. The MAX10 has a lot of ground to make up on the other hand. The question is how much has Boeing addressed what makes the MAX9 a slow seller, and will the better efficiency be enough to sway customers?


If that.
Yet that Boeing chart represents an 8% advantage to the 737-8 MAX.
something they have claimed from the outset
If that were actually true, we would not see the parity of sales between the A320 and the MAX that we see.

Revelation wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
I didn't expect the 737-10 to compete with the LR version of the A321. The market segment for the LR payload increase isn't that big. I think Boeing is going to compete against that with a new MOM 797 that is optimized for payloads over 200k lbs.

The average stage length for a 737 is around 800-1000 miles. That is where the efficiency of the 737-10 is likely optimized.

Interestingly enough, the 737's Chief Engineer has something to say about its range:

Though Airbus claims its jet has more range, Leverkuhn vehemently challenged that.

He said the Airbus claim is based on adding auxiliary fuel tanks, which airlines add only if they absolutely need the extra range, as they are a maintenance headache.

With two extra auxiliary tanks, the A321neo has slightly more range than the 3,450-mile range of the MAX without such tanks, Leverkuhn said. But Boeing can trump that by adding just one tank to the MAX 10, which extends its range to 3,700 miles.

“Base-to-base airplanes, we have more range,” Leverkuhn said. “If we put one extra tank, we have better range than they have with two.”

Seems he's not giving any ground...

Ref: http://www.seattletimes.com/business/bo ... -air-show/


LOL. He puts up figures which show the -10 having a range with 1 x ACT of 3 200Nm, then says this?

His own figures say that the 737-10 needs an ACT (which the Boeing 737 ACAP says is an additional 3t fuel) just to fly the stated 3 215Nm
That's makes it 23.9 tonnes of fuel on board
An A321 NEO with just 1 x ACT will fly the same 3 200nm on just 20.9 tonnes of fuel (and 22t payload)
With 2 x ACT's it will fly 3 650 Nm at least. And that is with only 23.2 tonnes of fuel on board.

So in fact, the A321 NEO flies a good 450Nm further with 2 x ACT's than the 737-10 MAX does with 1 x ACT.
Which by the way also makes the A321NEO some 14% more efficient than the 737-10 at these long ranges.
Just to put Boeing's "737-10 is 5% better" claim in some context.

And without knowing the MTOW and OEW for certain, we're not even discussing the type of payload a 737-10 will haul out at those ranges.

I like the 737-10 MAX.
I think it will be competitive with the A321NEO on short sectors (like 800nm)
And as this is where most of the sectors tend to be, that's fine.

What I don't like is the marketing bollocks that accompanies it.
On Boeing's own figures, the 737-10 MAX isn't going to get anywhere near the A321 NEO at long ranges

Rgds


Minor point but it appears that Boeing and Airbus use different densities for fuel (0.8 vs 0.78), so you have to be careful. The Airbus is still better but it is not as extreme. Also the 737 ACAP indicates that each ACT adds about 1.5T of fuel (using Boeings fuel density) (page 25 of the ACAP). You can put two ACTs in the 739 hence the 3T figure.

To avoid density issues: The A321 needs 26,692 l of fuel to fly 3,200, the 737 needs ~27,974 l (MAX acap says the Max has about ~200 l less fuel capacity then the NG, but I just used NG numbers). That is about 1 T difference (using Airbus density), not 3.
 
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adamblang
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:14 am

The longest United 757-200 TATL flight (EWR-TXL) was 3,459 nm and the 737-10 MAX advertised range in a standard two cabin configuration is 3,215 nm. I imagine with a lie-flat, premium heavy, lower density cabin, a 737-10 MAX becomes a TATL 757-200 replacement. :scratchchin:
 
sadiqutp
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:58 am

adamblang wrote:
The longest United 757-200 TATL flight (EWR-TXL) was 3,459 nm and the 737-10 MAX advertised range in a standard two cabin configuration is 3,215 nm. I imagine with a lie-flat, premium heavy, lower density cabin, a 737-10 MAX becomes a TATL 757-200 replacement. :scratchchin:


The advertised range for 757-200 2 class is 4250 nm .. EWR-TXL is 3,459 nm or 81.3% of the advertised range.
If we apply your logic to 10 MAX, its real life range would only be 81.3% of the advertised range, or 2,614 nm ... I don't think you can extract an extra ~850 nm by a premium conf.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:18 am

Well the 757-200 is very likely not going out at either MZFW nor MTOW on EWR-TXL so she could fly farther if she wanted as she would be going out with tanks not full. The MAX-10 would also not likely be at her MZFW in a more premium-heavy configuration so she'd have TOW available to tank more fuel, though whether it could tank enough...
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:20 am

Max Q wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Scouring their site to see if I can learn more about this landing gear.... coming up short. :(


Yes, i'm interested to see more information on the 'semi levered landing gear' like to see some diagrams/ renditions
on how they're going to do this as well.


Anyone tried a Patent search? I imagine Boeing will want to patent whatever they come up with.
 
Max Q
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:20 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Scouring their site to see if I can learn more about this landing gear.... coming up short. :(



Yes, i'm interested to see more information on the 'semi levered landing gear' like to see some diagrams/ renditions
on how they're going to do this as well.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:10 am

Alexdk wrote:
Why couldn't they just name this aircraft MAX 9 and drop the previous 9? Who needs current MAX 9 now?


They have contracts with customers they would like to keep. Not every customer would want to move up. Cancelling the 9 would cost money.
 
astuteman
Posts: 7124
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:34 am

Polot wrote:
astuteman wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
And the MAX 8 is superior to the A320 NEO across most missions yet EADS claims otherwise. :smile: Look...until there is real world operational data no ones knows for sure. What I think can be safely assumed from the independent analysis that is currently out there....the MAX-10 looks to be very competitive with the A321-Neo.

I say good for Boeing. I freely admit I did not see it coming.


The MAX 8 superior to the A320 NEO on most missions?
That will be why sales of the A320 NEO have been so scarce relative to the 737-8 MAX I guess ........
The current 3 690 sales of the A320NEO alone pretty much match sales of the entire MAX range, not just the 737-8

MrHMSH wrote:
The MAX8's advantage is perhaps 2% or less. I believe 2% is the rough difference between the 737-800 and A320ceo. Easily covered by discounts, commonality. And I'm not sure how Boeing will have closed that gap, given that they've had to make more changes to accommodate the new engine. The MAX10 has a lot of ground to make up on the other hand. The question is how much has Boeing addressed what makes the MAX9 a slow seller, and will the better efficiency be enough to sway customers?


If that.
Yet that Boeing chart represents an 8% advantage to the 737-8 MAX.
something they have claimed from the outset
If that were actually true, we would not see the parity of sales between the A320 and the MAX that we see.

Revelation wrote:
Interestingly enough, the 737's Chief Engineer has something to say about its range:


Seems he's not giving any ground...

Ref: http://www.seattletimes.com/business/bo ... -air-show/


LOL. He puts up figures which show the -10 having a range with 1 x ACT of 3 200Nm, then says this?

His own figures say that the 737-10 needs an ACT (which the Boeing 737 ACAP says is an additional 3t fuel) just to fly the stated 3 215Nm
That's makes it 23.9 tonnes of fuel on board
An A321 NEO with just 1 x ACT will fly the same 3 200nm on just 20.9 tonnes of fuel (and 22t payload)
With 2 x ACT's it will fly 3 650 Nm at least. And that is with only 23.2 tonnes of fuel on board.

So in fact, the A321 NEO flies a good 450Nm further with 2 x ACT's than the 737-10 MAX does with 1 x ACT.
Which by the way also makes the A321NEO some 14% more efficient than the 737-10 at these long ranges.
Just to put Boeing's "737-10 is 5% better" claim in some context.

And without knowing the MTOW and OEW for certain, we're not even discussing the type of payload a 737-10 will haul out at those ranges.

I like the 737-10 MAX.
I think it will be competitive with the A321NEO on short sectors (like 800nm)
And as this is where most of the sectors tend to be, that's fine.

What I don't like is the marketing bollocks that accompanies it.
On Boeing's own figures, the 737-10 MAX isn't going to get anywhere near the A321 NEO at long ranges

Rgds


Minor point but it appears that Boeing and Airbus use different densities for fuel (0.8 vs 0.78), so you have to be careful. The Airbus is still better but it is not as extreme. Also the 737 ACAP indicates that each ACT adds about 1.5T of fuel (using Boeings fuel density) (page 25 of the ACAP). You can put two ACTs in the 739 hence the 3T figure.

To avoid density issues: The A321 needs 26,692 l of fuel to fly 3,200, the 737 needs ~27,974 l (MAX acap says the Max has about ~200 l less fuel capacity then the NG, but I just used NG numbers). That is about 1 T difference (using Airbus density), not 3.


Good points. Thanks for doing this.
I used the fuel weights contained in the range payload charts for the NG's, which presumably show the "first" ACT line with 2 x ACT's, i.e. 23.9 tonnes.

The "revised" volume figures give the A321NEO 5% better fuel burn at 3 200nm, rather than 14% - 5% sounds a bit more realistic than 14%.
Which still puts the claims in context.
And still doesn't change the fact that an A321NEO will fly 450Nm further on 2 x ACT's than the 737-10 MAX will with one. :)

Rgds
 
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flee
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:42 am

Thanks guys for some fact based discussion - unfortunately, you will see much of the non aviation media will regurgitate what the Boeing officials pump out without critical analysis.
 
astuteman
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Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:05 am

Stitch wrote:
Well the 757-200 is very likely not going out at either MZFW nor MTOW on EWR-TXL so she could fly farther if she wanted as she would be going out with tanks not full. The MAX-10 would also not likely be at her MZFW in a more premium-heavy configuration so she'd have TOW available to tank more fuel, though whether it could tank enough...


Se above. If the "standard" 3 200nm 737-10 MAX can do EWR-TXL (eastbound) then the bog-standard A321 NEO will do it just as well with 1 x ACT and 450nm better with 2 ACT's. Of course the 3 x ACT's of the A321 NEO LR make this advantage 900nm over the standard 737-10 MAX.

Out of curiosity, do we actually know what the MTOW and OEW of the 737-10 MAX are?
Is MTOW the same 88.5t of the -9 MAX? Or is it heavier?

Rgds
 
ncelhr
Posts: 258
Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:53 pm

Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:22 am

Of course a "new" aircraft launch is exciting. But I am getting increasingly concerned about the race towards fitting more and more seats into a single aisle aircraft.
As passenger in Europe, I am seeing more and more legacy airlines removing toilets to add more seats and reducing seat pitch to uncomfortable levels to add more rows in the aircraft. This has become particularly flagrant in the longer aircraft like A321, with flimsy slimline seating that barely have any foam on them.
So when I see the marketing for a 737 MAX 10 responding to an A321 NEO by adding yet another plug that's barely a 1.64 metre long and this then translates to 10 more seats, yes, 10 - that's 2 more rows - this is turning travelling economy into hell for passengers having to travel in this tin can. I do not think the industry, manufacturers and airliners, should be proud of themselves.
 
oslmgm
Posts: 225
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:57 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
According to the video linked below from CNBC, the 737 Max 10 will be the most profitable single aisle airplane ever.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232/?video= ... 687&play=1

That sounded like CNBC was the source of the statement, but it's just a quote from Kevin McAllister, CEO of Boeing Commercial Airplanes.
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:02 am

On a similar note where is Randy Tinseth these days? I haven't seen any updates on his blog in months!
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
YIMBY
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:33 am

For me this is the biggest disappointment since the launch of 737MAX. Every investment on 737 makes is successor further away. I do not believe to ever see 797 and certainly not 7?7.

Why do they listen to customers instead of us?
 
r2rho
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:55 am

Finally. As we have been saying in the previous thread, this 9.5MAX is what the 9MAX should have been from the start. But, unlike the 7.5MAX which became the new 7MAX, a 9MAX is already flying, so they have to go with -10 instead.

For some it will be too late, as they have already defected to A321NEO. But it will prevent further defections. It won't convince an A320 airline to switch to 737, but it will help balance the order book on the upper size segment, and keep A321NEO pricing honest. On short range, it should be very competitive, and should very much appeal to LCC's already operating 737s and wishing to add capacity. On longer ranges, the A321NEO will have the upper hand. But not everyone needs the range. For most bread and butter routes, the -10 should perform well.
 
fsabo
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:07 am

YIMBY wrote:
For me this is the biggest disappointment since the launch of 737MAX. Every investment on 737 makes is successor further away. I do not believe to ever see 797 and certainly not 7?7.

Why do they listen to customers instead of us?


This combined with the "CS100 dumping" is disappointing.
 
travelhound
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Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 9:13 pm

Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:28 am

Matt6461 wrote:
MAX-10 seems like a decent offering that will maintain ~40% market share in this segment, perhaps allowing overall narrowbody parity with Airbus going forward (assuming MAX-8/200 bests the A320NEO). Seems cheap. Good move, Boeing.

But what has been happening in Chicago/Seattle over the last few years? It hasn't been a secret that the A321NEO/LR was eating the -9's lunch. Any reasonable person should have reached that conclusion by like 2014 at the latest.

Did Boeing delay reaction because it was drinking its own sauce?


If you consider growth in market and Boeing lagging Airbus production rate increases by two years the market share numbers come in at 54%/46% in Airbus's favour.

With all things being equal it would take Airbus a total of twenty years to achieve 60% market share.
 
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A330freak
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:56 am

Short video showing the landing gear design
https://twitter.com/thatjohn/status/877101578888589313
Last edited by A330freak on Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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KarelXWB
Topic Author
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:57 am

What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
TheDBCooper
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:04 am

Wow, I am sure Boeing will make it work but it does look extremely complicated.
 
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AirCal737
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:16 am

KarelXWB wrote:
Some technical specifications have been released, quoting a range of 3,215 nm:

Image
https://twitter.com/FG_STrim/status/876722210941136896

Has the design being freezed yet? I think it may gain lenth the same way 737-7 and 747-8 did.
 
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HighBypass
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:54 am

Questions on the MAX 10's "semi-levered" landing gear: The more common term is trailing link and that design has been around for a while, including Boeing's own 777. In addition to the levering trick, which is actually only trailing link in appearance, the MAX 10 will also include a telescopic piston that will add to the height, without requiring gear bay changes.


The narrow body market is the most profitable sector of the civil airliner market


Not quite right, Flee. Single aisle aircraft are by far the greatest in numbers built for the commercial divisions of both of the world's major airframers, however, wide bodied aircraft remain the most profitable and produce the most revenue.

For example, in 2014, wide bodies represented about one-third (1/3) of total commercial aircraft output at Boeing, but were responsible for over three-quarters (3/4) of revenue in the same commercial division. And of course, on a per-unit basis, profitability for wide bodies is far and above that for single aisle aircraft.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:03 am

A330freak wrote:
Short video showing the landing gear design
https://twitter.com/thatjohn/status/877101578888589313


Compare and contrast to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uPBgOlhuLc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjkst5G9ZJc

I have to say, I don't see where the big win is.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:10 am

Revelation wrote:
A330freak wrote:
Short video showing the landing gear design
https://twitter.com/thatjohn/status/877101578888589313


Compare and contrast to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uPBgOlhuLc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjkst5G9ZJc

I have to say, I don't see where the big win is.


The new gear gets a little taller when extended and the wheel is a little farther back yet it retracts to fit in the existing bay.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:23 am

Revelation wrote:
A330freak wrote:
Short video showing the landing gear design
https://twitter.com/thatjohn/status/877101578888589313


Compare and contrast to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uPBgOlhuLc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjkst5G9ZJc

I have to say, I don't see where the big win is.


The Max-10 surely was a classic case where every inch counts.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:28 am

MileHFL400 wrote:
On a similar note where is Randy Tinseth these days? I haven't seen any updates on his blog in months!

Lots of Randy quotes being discussed at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1366249 ...
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
rj777
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:16 pm

But is it still going to be a single or are they switching to a double bogie?
 
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kelvin933
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:25 pm

rj777 wrote:
But is it still going to be a single or are they switching to a double bogie?

There is no space in the wingbox for a double bogie.
“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.”
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:18 pm

And here's how the 737 MAX will be stretched:

Image
https://twitter.com/FlightGlobal/status ... 4644477952
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
leghorn
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:22 pm

Another exit door so 6 more seats for which Ryanair and other LCCs can charge extra legroom money.
 
oslmgm
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:30 pm

leghorn wrote:
Another exit door so 6 more seats for which Ryanair and other LCCs can charge extra legroom money.

Hmm. They don't really need exit doors to increase the seat pitch and charge more. They could do that on every seat row if they wanted to - but they typically don't, it's not their modus operandi.
 
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kelvin933
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:35 pm

Does anyone know how Boeing is going to fit larger brakes on the MAX10 ?

Image

Image
“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.”
 
leghorn
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:45 pm

oslmgm wrote:
leghorn wrote:
Another exit door so 6 more seats for which Ryanair and other LCCs can charge extra legroom money.

Hmm. They don't really need exit doors to increase the seat pitch and charge more. They could do that on every seat row if they wanted to - but they typically don't, it's not their modus operandi.

They have a row there with more legroom than their perceived minimum acceptable; you can be sure they'll be looking to charge for it.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:48 pm

astuteman wrote:
Se(e) above. If the "standard" 3 200nm 737-10 MAX can do EWR-TXL (eastbound) then the bog-standard A321 NEO will do it just as well with 1 x ACT and 450nm better with 2 ACT's. Of course the 3 x ACT's of the A321 NEO LR make this advantage 900nm over the standard 737-10 MAX.


Fair enough, but UA just committed to buying the MAX-10, not the A321 (to keesje's distress, I am sure) so either the MAX-10 will need to make the run or UA will down-gage to a 737-8.


astuteman wrote:
Out of curiosity, do we actually know what the MTOW and OEW of the 737-10 MAX are? Is MTOW the same 88.5t of the -9 MAX? Or is it heavier?


Speculation is that MTOW will go up by 1200kg to 92,000kg to accommodate the additional 12 passengers. There are also rumors CFM will offer a "thrust bump" option to take TOGA thrust to 31,000 pounds.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:50 pm

The gear design is interesting. In the "MadMAX" threads we were discussing the gear, and most of us believed it would not be much taller, but reach further back on the fuselage to leverage the rotation angle. This new gear design seems to be taller, but not much further back? Or is it a mix of both?

I read that they'll move the engines further back to compensate CoG because of the fuselage stretch in front of the wings. Does this mean the engine pylons will be different from the other MAXs? Together with the wings being modified for the new gear design, it will affect parts commonality between the -7/8/9 and the -10.

Another question, when is first delivery scheduled? Is it 2021?
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:52 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
Another question, when is first delivery scheduled? Is it 2021?


That would be 2020.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
oslmgm
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:52 pm

leghorn wrote:
oslmgm wrote:
leghorn wrote:
Another exit door so 6 more seats for which Ryanair and other LCCs can charge extra legroom money.

Hmm. They don't really need exit doors to increase the seat pitch and charge more. They could do that on every seat row if they wanted to - but they typically don't, it's not their modus operandi.

They have a row there with more legroom than their perceived minimum acceptable; you can be sure they'll be looking to charge for it.

Of course
 
oslmgm
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:58 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
The gear design is interesting. In the "MadMAX" threads we were discussing the gear, and most of us believed it would not be much taller, but reach further back on the fuselage to leverage the rotation angle. This new gear design seems to be taller, but not much further back? Or is it a mix of both?

I read that they'll move the engines further back to compensate CoG because of the fuselage stretch in front of the wings. Does this mean the engine pylons will be different from the other MAXs? Together with the wings being modified for the new gear design, it will affect parts commonality between the -7/8/9 and the -10.

Another question, when is first delivery scheduled? Is it 2021?

If the gear is taller, maybe they can hang the engine lower and further back (closer to the wing)?
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:25 pm

oslmgm wrote:
If the gear is taller, maybe they can hang the engine lower and further back (closer to the wing)?


Yes, that's true. With taller gear they can lower the engine and move it back at the same time. The pylons must be quite different from the rest of the MAX series.
 
mzlin
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:38 pm

I thought the main gear on the 737NG and MAX7/8/9 were already as high as possible without requiring slides for the overwing emergency exits. I deduce from this that Boeing was not actually right up to the height limit earlier, but most likely is now.
 
blrsea
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:44 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
The gear design is interesting. In the "MadMAX" threads we were discussing the gear, and most of us believed it would not be much taller, but reach further back on the fuselage to leverage the rotation angle. This new gear design seems to be taller, but not much further back? Or is it a mix of both?

I read that they'll move the engines further back to compensate CoG because of the fuselage stretch in front of the wings. Does this mean the engine pylons will be different from the other MAXs? Together with the wings being modified for the new gear design, it will affect parts commonality between the -7/8/9 and the -10.

Another question, when is first delivery scheduled? Is it 2021?


Weren't the reports mentioning that the landing gear wouldn't be taller by the would reach back to improve rotation angle? I doubt it increases the height at least as per public sources till recently.

On the wing mounting position of engines, I remember reading somewhere back during the MAX design phase that the engines were moved to the front to improve clearance wrt ground for the bigger engines. If landing gear height doesn't change, I doubt they can move the engines a little back to compensate for CoG. But I could be wrong here.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:05 pm

blrsea wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
The gear design is interesting. In the "MadMAX" threads we were discussing the gear, and most of us believed it would not be much taller, but reach further back on the fuselage to leverage the rotation angle. This new gear design seems to be taller, but not much further back? Or is it a mix of both?

I read that they'll move the engines further back to compensate CoG because of the fuselage stretch in front of the wings. Does this mean the engine pylons will be different from the other MAXs? Together with the wings being modified for the new gear design, it will affect parts commonality between the -7/8/9 and the -10.

Another question, when is first delivery scheduled? Is it 2021?


Weren't the reports mentioning that the landing gear wouldn't be taller by the would reach back to improve rotation angle? I doubt it increases the height at least as per public sources till recently.

On the wing mounting position of engines, I remember reading somewhere back during the MAX design phase that the engines were moved to the front to improve clearance wrt ground for the bigger engines. If landing gear height doesn't change, I doubt they can move the engines a little back to compensate for CoG. But I could be wrong here.


Yes, in the MadMAX threads we were thinking the gear would reach further back, but not get taller. But now some are claiming the gear will be taller as well. And I've read they're moving the engines further back towards the wing to leverage the center of gravity since the fuselage is stretched more in front of the wings and engines, than to the rear. So I'm just speculating if the pylons will be different in addition to the wing design around the landing gear bays.
 
oslmgm
Posts: 225
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:39 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
blrsea wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
The gear design is interesting. In the "MadMAX" threads we were discussing the gear, and most of us believed it would not be much taller, but reach further back on the fuselage to leverage the rotation angle. This new gear design seems to be taller, but not much further back? Or is it a mix of both?

I read that they'll move the engines further back to compensate CoG because of the fuselage stretch in front of the wings. Does this mean the engine pylons will be different from the other MAXs? Together with the wings being modified for the new gear design, it will affect parts commonality between the -7/8/9 and the -10.

Another question, when is first delivery scheduled? Is it 2021?


Weren't the reports mentioning that the landing gear wouldn't be taller by the would reach back to improve rotation angle? I doubt it increases the height at least as per public sources till recently.

On the wing mounting position of engines, I remember reading somewhere back during the MAX design phase that the engines were moved to the front to improve clearance wrt ground for the bigger engines. If landing gear height doesn't change, I doubt they can move the engines a little back to compensate for CoG. But I could be wrong here.


Yes, in the MadMAX threads we were thinking the gear would reach further back, but not get taller. But now some are claiming the gear will be taller as well. And I've read they're moving the engines further back towards the wing to leverage the center of gravity since the fuselage is stretched more in front of the wings and engines, than to the rear. So I'm just speculating if the pylons will be different in addition to the wing design around the landing gear bays.

In the video demonstration of the landing gear mechanism, it seemed to be telescoping a little bit, maybe just enough to adjust the engine position a little rearward?

mzlin is correct in questioning if this will have consequences for the overwing exits/slides. Maybe there's still a little bit of margin? Or maybe the gear will only telescope when the plane is moving at a certain speed?
 
okie73
Posts: 357
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:10 pm

I predict most orders for the -10 will be from airlines that would have ordered the -9. I don't see anything to convince an airline to order the -10 over a 321NEO.
 
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Stitch
Posts: 27046
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:23 pm

okie73 wrote:
I predict most orders for the -10 will be from airlines that would have ordered the -9. I don't see anything to convince an airline to order the -10 over a 321NEO.


I don't see it swinging Airbus operators, but I believe it will appeal to 737 operators who wanted something larger than the -9, but whose only option before now was the A321.
 
TranscendZac
Posts: 138
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:10 pm

Pardon the ignorance if has been stated in the thread already, quickly opened this before I had to run again, but will there be any thrust bumps to the Leap-1B or is 28,000lbs it for the MAX? Is there no way to bump to 30,000lbs for the -10 to help, with the landing gear mods, takeoff performance? At the increased weights of the MAX across the board, I would have thought that 28,000-30,000lbs would have been the goal. I assume fan diameter as usual is the limiting factor?

*Nevermind-just read where Stitch mentioned rumors of a 31,000lb thrust bump. That would be sweet!

On a side note, I think it is a really wise call to offer the 737-10. Makes perfect sense to hold them over for the next decade and offer a real competitor to the A321NEO for sub 2,000nm flights. Nearly 300 orders so far isn't a bad start at all. I wonder how many new orders they will receive for having launched the new model vs an airline previously only considering the A321NEO?
Zac
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:21 pm

blrsea wrote:

Weren't the reports mentioning that the landing gear wouldn't be taller by the would reach back to improve rotation angle? I doubt it increases the height at least as per public sources till recently.


Taller also gives a better rotation angle. Taller would also do something for the 737-9.
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