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TheRedBaron
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:01 pm

astuteman wrote:
Quietly tucked in the bottom of that chart is a legend that says "800Nm trip".
It is well known that the 737 is more competitive at short range than at long range, so that's clearly the comparison Boeing will pick.
Nothing fundamentally wrong with that either, as many trips are that short.
By also being a bit "clever" with the seat count, and making them the same between the -10 and A321 (as opposed to reality), they might feasibly claim a 5% fuel burn advantage.

Real world seatings on Transcon sectors will be a different story entirely. :)

Rgds


DING DING we have a winner here... of course we will see the Airbus sales pitch the other way around on sectors of 1700 plus nm the A321 has the advantage....darn marketing they could sell a donkey as a cow with enough graphs!

I think Boeing will kill the Max 9 with this move... too many versions one will surely die...
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HighBypass
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:15 pm

okie73 wrote:
I predict most orders for the -10 will be from airlines that would have ordered the -9. I don't see anything to convince an airline to order the -10 over a 321NEO.


Unmatched (within class) dispatch reliability and maintenance savings are two commonly known motivations for airlines to choose the older, simpler 737 series over the single aisle Airbus, not to mention the vastly superior DSO (design service objective) numbers. Fleet commonality would, naturally, also be a practical and economic reason for those airlines that have not yet ordered replacements.

rj777 wrote:
But is it still going to be a single or are they switching to a double bogie?


No need to switch as the projected pavement loading would remain low enough.
 
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:43 pm

Will Alaska be ordering 737 MAX 10 planes and 737 MAX 7 planes? Alaska could use 737 MAX 10 planes to replace some of its 737-900 planes and possibly the A321neo planes that were recently delivered to Virgin America, and Alaska could also use 737 MAX 7 planes to replace 737-700 planes and the Virgin America A319 planes. If Alaska orders both 737 MAX 10 and 737 MAX 7 planes, Alaska could be one of the few airlines to operate all 4 variants of the 737 MAX.
 
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Finn350
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:44 pm

HighBypass wrote:
Unmatched (within class) dispatch reliability and maintenance savings are two commonly known motivations for airlines to choose the older, simpler 737 series over the single aisle Airbus, not to mention the vastly superior DSO (design service objective) numbers. Fleet commonality would, naturally, also be a practical and economic reason for those airlines that have not yet ordered replacements.


Is 737 really simpler to maintain than A320 series? After all, A320 is fully modern aircraft where as 737 is a mix and match of old and new technology. For example, A320 is fully fly-by-wire, whereas 737 is partly fly-by-wire (sort of) and partly mechanical cables from 1960's. It is difficult to see how the 737 could have maintenance savings.
 
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HighBypass
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:52 pm

Finn350 wrote:
HighBypass wrote:
Unmatched (within class) dispatch reliability and maintenance savings are two commonly known motivations for airlines to choose the older, simpler 737 series over the single aisle Airbus, not to mention the vastly superior DSO (design service objective) numbers. Fleet commonality would, naturally, also be a practical and economic reason for those airlines that have not yet ordered replacements.


Is 737 really simpler to maintain than A320 series? After all, A320 is fully modern aircraft where as 737 is a mix and match of old and new technology. For example, A320 is fully fly-by-wire, whereas 737 is partly fly-by-wire (sort of) and partly mechanical cables from 1960's. It is difficult to see how the 737 could have maintenance savings.


The 737 is a maintenance cost leader. While it may seem unintuitive to the casual observer, there is no doubt about this fact of airline business for those in the know.

The cost of LRUs alone are dramatically less on the 37 compared to the Airbus. The required man-hours for common maintenance operations are also, on average, less for the older aircraft. Finally, times between major maintenance checks are also superior on the old gal compared to her newer, computerized, technologically 'advanced' friend from across the pond. All of this adds up to a cheaper to maintain aircraft.

Technology in and of itself is no guarantee of reliability and maintenance savings, particularly technology that is not designed with ease of maintenance in mind. This is not universal however. One area is engine control management. The old hydro-mechanical units (HMUs) were among the most troublesome bits to maintain on a turbofan engine. FADEC equipped engines, with their thrust scheduling and watchdog functions not only reduced fuel delivery woes, but also led to longer lives for hot section components.
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:07 pm

Finn350 wrote:
HighBypass wrote:
Unmatched (within class) dispatch reliability and maintenance savings are two commonly known motivations for airlines to choose the older, simpler 737 series over the single aisle Airbus, not to mention the vastly superior DSO (design service objective) numbers. Fleet commonality would, naturally, also be a practical and economic reason for those airlines that have not yet ordered replacements.


Is 737 really simpler to maintain than A320 series? After all, A320 is fully modern aircraft where as 737 is a mix and match of old and new technology. For example, A320 is fully fly-by-wire, whereas 737 is partly fly-by-wire (sort of) and partly mechanical cables from 1960's. It is difficult to see how the 737 could have maintenance savings.

The A320 is modern, but keep in mind it still dates back to the 80s. Airbus has no doubt modernized parts of it but it is not like all the electronics/systems/ and what not are fully state of the art. It is still at it's core a 30 year old design, and a "first gen" modern plane at that. It's just that is young compared to the 737 basic design which is pushing 50 (although it did get a rather significant facelift with the NG).
 
astuteman
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:19 am

HighBypass wrote:
okie73 wrote:
I predict most orders for the -10 will be from airlines that would have ordered the -9. I don't see anything to convince an airline to order the -10 over a 321NEO.


Unmatched (within class) dispatch reliability and maintenance savings are two commonly known motivations for airlines to choose the older, simpler 737 series over the single aisle Airbus, not to mention the vastly superior DSO (design service objective) numbers. Fleet commonality would, naturally, also be a practical and economic reason for those airlines that have not yet ordered replacements.

rj777 wrote:
But is it still going to be a single or are they switching to a double bogie?


No need to switch as the projected pavement loading would remain low enough.


Which does make you wonder what has caused so many airlines to order quite so many A320 series aircraft ......

It is widely suspected that Boeing marketing usually cite figures for the newest 737's against the oldest A320's in order to generate a meaningful maintenance saving.

https://www.flightglobal.com/sponsored/ ... ance/a320/

Reliability of the A320 has also crept up from 99% for the initial 1,000 airframes to over 99.7% for the current delivery models.


I haven't seen a reliability figure for the 737 that beats 99.7%
And in relation to DSO

an important upgrade was achieved in 2012 with Airbus receiving certification to double the maintenance programme validity for the type to 120,000h and increase cycles from 48,000 to 60,000.


This is still behind the 75 000 cycles for the 737 (not "vastly" so).
However, no A320 will reach this figure until 2020.
I struggle to believe it is a meaningful differentiator in fleet decisions for new builds

Rgds
 
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FBWFTW
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:32 am

Couldn't resist this...

Image

IT LIVES. And I personally will avoid flying it (or any 737 for that matter) if at all possible.
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barney captain
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:35 am

FBWFTW wrote:
Couldn't resist this...

IT LIVES. And I personally will avoid flying it (or any 737 for that matter) if at all possible.



So, you're saying you won't fly on this - simply because it's a 737?


Image
Southeast Of Disorder
 
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FBWFTW
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:54 am

barney captain wrote:
FBWFTW wrote:
Couldn't resist this...

IT LIVES. And I personally will avoid flying it (or any 737 for that matter) if at all possible.



So, you're saying you won't fly on this - simply because it's a 737?


Image


Off topic answer I suppose, but:
Yes, exactly that. Plus the chances of me flying Copa are slim to zero. Windows too low to see out very well, uncomfortable 17" seats and unless YOU are planning on finding a 73 with flatbeds AND gonna pay for me ;-p Then no I'm not flying on it if I can help it. I book based on comfort and cost. I flew Y on a pmCO 73 ONCE and it was heinous, also an AA 73, also heinous. Since those trips, as an adult I've booked to avoid the 73 like the plague. Luckily for me, my home airport has a heavy B6 and DL presence and for TATL, there's more A330’s and the odd few A359’s and even an A380 should the need arise! I remember flying on a USAir 732 and hating it compared to the Delta 75‘s and L10's I was used to. Also, when I was a kid and frightened of flying, 73‘s used to drop out the sky from bad rudders and such. (I wonder if that's maybe a reason why-I distinctly remember being petrified of them when I was young-but I LOVED the 72‘s) As for the NG's, there's this little thing too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaWdEtANi-0
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PlanesNTrains
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:54 am

I just flew two A320's this weekend. Neither was what I would call "comfortable" but it always depends on the airline.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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FBWFTW
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:11 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
I just flew two A320's this weekend. Neither was what I would call "comfortable" but it always depends on the airline.

I'll give you that Dave. Dunno who you flew but I'm sure say an Indigo, American, United or Easyjet A320 isn't as comfy as a JetBlue or virgin America one. For the airlines I fly, the 320 family beats the pants off the 73 for comfort factor. Which brings me on topic-how many of the airlines will ACTUALLY use the Boeing production/launch video (flatbeds etc) for the 737MAX-10? I highly doubt you'll see much of that.
Avgeek & Airbus fan
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IslandRob
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:23 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
I just flew two A320's this weekend. Neither was what I would call "comfortable" but it always depends on the airline.

Exactly. I've had A320 flights which were positively miserable due to the particular plane configuration; other A320 flights have been fine. Ditto the 737. Some people strike me as just irrational (and rather childish) when they make sweeping, declarative statements that one of these narrow bodies is inherently superior to the other with respect to comfort. Most likely, they're just playing out their own confirmation biases. -ir
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barney captain
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:29 am

FBWFTW -

Your "reasoning" is so distorted and full of holes as to not warrant a reply.

Carry on.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
AvObserver
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:32 am

FBWFTW wrote:
barney captain wrote:
FBWFTW wrote:
Couldn't resist this...

IT LIVES. And I personally will avoid flying it (or any 737 for that matter) if at all possible.



So, you're saying you won't fly on this - simply because it's a 737?


Image


Off topic answer I suppose, but:
Yes, exactly that. Plus the chances of me flying Copa are slim to zero. Windows too low to see out very well, uncomfortable 17" seats and unless YOU are planning on finding a 73 with flatbeds AND gonna pay for me ;-p Then no I'm not flying on it if I can help it. I book based on comfort and cost. I flew Y on a pmCO 73 ONCE and it was heinous, also an AA 73, also heinous. Since those trips, as an adult I've booked to avoid the 73 like the plague. Luckily for me, my home airport has a heavy B6 and DL presence and for TATL, there's more A330’s and the odd few A359’s and even an A380 should the need arise! I remember flying on a USAir 732 and hating it compared to the Delta 75‘s and L10's I was used to. Also, when I was a kid and frightened of flying, 73‘s used to drop out the sky from bad rudders and such. (I wonder if that's maybe a reason why-I distinctly remember being petrified of them when I was young-but I LOVED the 72‘s) As for the NG's, there's this little thing too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaWdEtANi-0

Maybe you should've had therapy for this 737 phobia when you were young, given your bad experiences. I've flown both 737s and A320 series aircraft and found them rather similar, aside the the A320's noticeably wider cabin. That wider cabin however, doesn't make the A320 hands down preferable; otherwise 737 orders would largely die out. You're entitled to your preferences and fears but on the latter point, methinks your 737 aversion is now on a psychological level.
 
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HighBypass
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:12 am

astuteman wrote:
HighBypass wrote:
okie73 wrote:
I predict most orders for the -10 will be from airlines that would have ordered the -9. I don't see anything to convince an airline to order the -10 over a 321NEO.


Unmatched (within class) dispatch reliability and maintenance savings are two commonly known motivations for airlines to choose the older, simpler 737 series over the single aisle Airbus, not to mention the vastly superior DSO (design service objective) numbers. Fleet commonality would, naturally, also be a practical and economic reason for those airlines that have not yet ordered replacements.

rj777 wrote:
But is it still going to be a single or are they switching to a double bogie?


No need to switch as the projected pavement loading would remain low enough.


Which does make you wonder what has caused so many airlines to order quite so many A320 series aircraft ......


I don't wonder at all. The A320 series is a perfectly good aircraft and for a singe aisle, offers passengers a little more room. Airbus also prices these aircraft very competitively and the training commonalities across the fleet also is a checkmark in the plus column.

It is widely suspected that Boeing marketing usually cite figures for the newest 737's against the oldest A320's in order to generate a meaningful maintenance saving.


The difference in maintenance cost is common knowledge. Widely suspected? By whom? Do tell.


Reliability of the A320 has also crept up from 99% for the initial 1,000 airframes to over 99.7% for the current delivery models.


There are sunrise and sunset reliability factors in all aircraft. New models nearly always have teething issues. The oldest aircraft, also require increased inspection labor and are more prone to LRU failure. It is those aircraft in the middle that are the meat and potatoes of fleet maintenance as far as cost goes. The figure you quote from Airbus is not a real world fleet wide average with middle weighting (as is Boeing's), but instead a cherry pick from the first several years of life. Marketing speak is what that is.

I haven't seen a reliability figure for the 737 that beats 99.7%


To get better than that, you have to move up to a 777.

an important upgrade was achieved in 2012 with Airbus receiving certification to double the maintenance programme validity for the type to 120,000h and increase cycles from 48,000 to 60,000.

This is still behind the 75 000 cycles for the 737 (not "vastly" so).
However, no A320 will reach this figure until 2020.
I struggle to believe it is a meaningful differentiator in fleet decisions for new builds

Rgds


This increased life extension comes at an increased cost. Those programs are not free. For the "lowly" and older 737, those higher service life numbers are attainable right out of the tin.

Kind regards, HBP
Last edited by HighBypass on Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
tjh8402
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:34 am

FBWFTW wrote:
barney captain wrote:
FBWFTW wrote:
Couldn't resist this...

IT LIVES. And I personally will avoid flying it (or any 737 for that matter) if at all possible.



So, you're saying you won't fly on this - simply because it's a 737?


Image


Off topic answer I suppose, but:
Yes, exactly that. Plus the chances of me flying Copa are slim to zero. Windows too low to see out very well, uncomfortable 17" seats and unless YOU are planning on finding a 73 with flatbeds AND gonna pay for me ;-p Then no I'm not flying on it if I can help it. I book based on comfort and cost. I flew Y on a pmCO 73 ONCE and it was heinous, also an AA 73, also heinous. Since those trips, as an adult I've booked to avoid the 73 like the plague. Luckily for me, my home airport has a heavy B6 and DL presence and for TATL, there's more A330’s and the odd few A359’s and even an A380 should the need arise! I remember flying on a USAir 732 and hating it compared to the Delta 75‘s and L10's I was used to. Also, when I was a kid and frightened of flying, 73‘s used to drop out the sky from bad rudders and such. (I wonder if that's maybe a reason why-I distinctly remember being petrified of them when I was young-but I LOVED the 72‘s) As for the NG's, there's this little thing too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaWdEtANi-0


Funny how you love 75s and 72s which have the same cabin width and same 17" seat you despise in the 737.

I always poll family and friends when they fly if they notice extra space/width/comfort on any planes or if they even remember which they flew on. It's all just varying shades of misery most of the time. Most can't remember any plane types at all, and I've never had one person choose the Airbus as more comfortable. In fact my non avgeek boyfriend felt the opposite after flying both the 737 and A321 on AA. When I asked if he noticed one plane was more comfortable or spacious than the other, he picked the Boeing.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:44 am

jplatts wrote:
Will Alaska be ordering 737 MAX 10 planes and 737 MAX 7 planes? Alaska could use 737 MAX 10 planes to replace some of its 737-900 planes and possibly the A321neo planes that were recently delivered to Virgin America, and Alaska could also use 737 MAX 7 planes to replace 737-700 planes and the Virgin America A319 planes. If Alaska orders both 737 MAX 10 and 737 MAX 7 planes, Alaska could be one of the few airlines to operate all 4 variants of the 737 MAX.



AS isn't interested in the MAX 7, but they do have both MAX 8 and MAX 9 on order. I wouldn't be surprised to see additional orders for the MAX 10, or see the orders become MAX 9 and 10 or MAX 8 and 10.

But not all four, definitely not.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:52 am

tjh8402 wrote:
FBWFTW wrote:
barney captain wrote:


So, you're saying you won't fly on this - simply because it's a 737?


Image


Off topic answer I suppose, but:
Yes, exactly that. Plus the chances of me flying Copa are slim to zero. Windows too low to see out very well, uncomfortable 17" seats and unless YOU are planning on finding a 73 with flatbeds AND gonna pay for me ;-p Then no I'm not flying on it if I can help it. I book based on comfort and cost. I flew Y on a pmCO 73 ONCE and it was heinous, also an AA 73, also heinous. Since those trips, as an adult I've booked to avoid the 73 like the plague. Luckily for me, my home airport has a heavy B6 and DL presence and for TATL, there's more A330’s and the odd few A359’s and even an A380 should the need arise! I remember flying on a USAir 732 and hating it compared to the Delta 75‘s and L10's I was used to. Also, when I was a kid and frightened of flying, 73‘s used to drop out the sky from bad rudders and such. (I wonder if that's maybe a reason why-I distinctly remember being petrified of them when I was young-but I LOVED the 72‘s) As for the NG's, there's this little thing too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaWdEtANi-0


Funny how you love 75s and 72s which have the same cabin width and same 17" seat you despise in the 737.

I always poll family and friends when they fly if they notice extra space/width/comfort on any planes or if they even remember which they flew on. It's all just varying shades of misery most of the time. Most can't remember any plane types at all, and I've never had one person choose the Airbus as more comfortable. In fact my non avgeek boyfriend felt the opposite after flying both the 737 and A321 on AA. When I asked if he noticed one plane was more comfortable or spacious than the other, he picked the Boeing.


Gotta love A.net, somehow there is a difference between 2 identical cabins. General public doesn't give a damn about 1", none of them notice it because Economy is Economy.
 
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767333ER
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:59 am

There are a couple of things I will be interested to see when this thing flies. First off is the braking performance with a meaningful load especially in the winter. The other one I am curious about is how the rest of the plane will behave with the altered dimensions mostly out the front. Will it not tip anymore? Will the elevators/stabalizers be noticeably less effective?
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MrBretz
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:05 am

Once again I was recently on a UA A320 with slimline seats. The IAH to SNA route was uncomfortable in Economy. And I am being polite with those words. No E+ seats were available. I know that's United's fault.
Last edited by MrBretz on Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:18 am

HighBypass wrote:
okie73 wrote:
I predict most orders for the -10 will be from airlines that would have ordered the -9. I don't see anything to convince an airline to order the -10 over a 321NEO.


Unmatched (within class) dispatch reliability and maintenance savings are two commonly known motivations for airlines to choose the older, simpler 737 series over the single aisle Airbus, not to mention the vastly superior DSO (design service objective) numbers. Fleet commonality would, naturally, also be a practical and economic reason for those airlines that have not yet ordered replacements.


That hasn't justified 737 record sales so far, I don't see why adding a new, significantly different (including on maintenance sensitive items like the landing gear) model will help in that respect.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
astuteman
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:31 am

HighBypass wrote:
astuteman wrote:
HighBypass wrote:

Unmatched (within class) dispatch reliability and maintenance savings are two commonly known motivations for airlines to choose the older, simpler 737 series over the single aisle Airbus, not to mention the vastly superior DSO (design service objective) numbers. Fleet commonality would, naturally, also be a practical and economic reason for those airlines that have not yet ordered replacements.



No need to switch as the projected pavement loading would remain low enough.


Which does make you wonder what has caused so many airlines to order quite so many A320 series aircraft ......


I don't wonder at all. The A320 series is a perfectly good aircraft and for a singe aisle, offers passengers a little more room. Airbus also prices these aircraft very competitively and the training commonalities across the fleet also is a checkmark in the plus column.

It is widely suspected that Boeing marketing usually cite figures for the newest 737's against the oldest A320's in order to generate a meaningful maintenance saving.


The difference in maintenance cost is common knowledge. Widely suspected? By whom? Do tell.

Kind regards, HBP


I have seen a lot of "common knowledge" displayed on a-net in the 12 years I've been on here.

Most of it smacks of bias, and none of it explains the market situation of the aircraft in question.

I would challenge you strongly that concerns over a major difference in maintenance costs, or design service goals, play a meaningful part in the MAX or NEO purchases we see today.

It's a bit like the "A320 family fall out the sky whenever they attempt transcons" "common knowledge" that still gets paraded out on this forum.

I'm not buying. Sorry.

Kind regards
 
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ITMercure
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:05 am

mzlin wrote:
I thought the main gear on the 737NG and MAX7/8/9 were already as high as possible without requiring slides for the overwing emergency exits. I deduce from this that Boeing was not actually right up to the height limit earlier, but most likely is now.


Yes but let's not forget that the Max got a new, taller front gear. This probably means that, with same-height mains, the wing trailing edge on the Max now sits a few inches closer to the ground than on the NG. Thus, there might be a margin for Boeing to raise the struts by a few inches while still fiting in the legacy 737ovenwing evacuation standards.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:15 am

767333ER wrote:
There are a couple of things I will be interested to see when this thing flies. First off is the braking performance with a meaningful load especially in the winter. The other one I am curious about is how the rest of the plane will behave with the altered dimensions mostly out the front. Will it not tip anymore? Will the elevators/stabalizers be noticeably less effective?


If the maximum landing weight is not increased above the 737-9 the brake performance should be similar to it, If MLW has gone up, it should be possible to install better brakes and perhaps bigger tires on the 737-10. I have no idea about the tipping, but elevators and stabilizers should be more defective on a longer frame.

What I am really interested in is how the new MLG will affect field performance.
 
Natflyer
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:28 am

mjoelnir wrote:
I have no idea about the tipping, but elevators and stabilizers should be more EFFECTIVE on a longer frame.

What I am really interested in is how the new MLG will affect field performance.


There, I fixed that for you.

The -10 does have higher MLW than the -9. Not by much, but still.
I have not flown the NGs, but I flew the 737 Classics and the -400 was an a** to stop compared to the -300s. Don't remember if they had same brakes or if -400 had larger ones. But I shudder to think of a 737 with MLW over 165,000lbs (78t)...
 
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HighBypass
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:52 am

astuteman wrote:
HighBypass wrote:
astuteman wrote:

Which does make you wonder what has caused so many airlines to order quite so many A320 series aircraft ......


I don't wonder at all. The A320 series is a perfectly good aircraft and for a singe aisle, offers passengers a little more room. Airbus also prices these aircraft very competitively and the training commonalities across the fleet also is a checkmark in the plus column.

It is widely suspected that Boeing marketing usually cite figures for the newest 737's against the oldest A320's in order to generate a meaningful maintenance saving.


The difference in maintenance cost is common knowledge. Widely suspected? By whom? Do tell.

Kind regards, HBP


I have seen a lot of "common knowledge" displayed on a-net in the 12 years I've been on here.

Most of it smacks of bias, and none of it explains the market situation of the aircraft in question.

I would challenge you strongly that concerns over a major difference in maintenance costs, or design service goals, play a meaningful part in the MAX or NEO purchases we see today.

It's a bit like the "A320 family fall out the sky whenever they attempt transcons" "common knowledge" that still gets paraded out on this forum.

I'm not buying. Sorry.

Kind regards


You're not buying? Great. I am not selling. Not at all. Not even a little. I also do not propose my statements here were ever meant to explain market forces as they are today or have been over the past several decades as they relate to acquisition of single aisle commercial aircraft. I am only sharing knowledge.

"major difference in maintenance costs" - No one here used the modifier 'major', but the differences are not insubstantial and the cycle limits speak for themselves. No bias whatsoever in those simple, basic cyclical limits. Just plain truth.

You appear to be placing sinister motives on my quest to share knowledge with those, whom I thought (or would hope) were mostly like-minded people. Perhaps I was wrong. Perhaps far too many of our group are not prepared for honesty. That would be too bad if true, since such bias against honest conversation is entirely unprofessional.

I should add that I thank you for being honest in your skepticism. Nothing wrong with that. Cheers!
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:04 am

Aesma wrote:
HighBypass wrote:
okie73 wrote:
I predict most orders for the -10 will be from airlines that would have ordered the -9. I don't see anything to convince an airline to order the -10 over a 321NEO.


Unmatched (within class) dispatch reliability and maintenance savings are two commonly known motivations for airlines to choose the older, simpler 737 series over the single aisle Airbus, not to mention the vastly superior DSO (design service objective) numbers. Fleet commonality would, naturally, also be a practical and economic reason for those airlines that have not yet ordered replacements.


That hasn't justified 737 record sales so far, I don't see why adding a new, significantly different (including on maintenance sensitive items like the landing gear) model will help in that respect.


I am as clueless as the next guy what the marketing gurus think. Apologies for that. I can only speculate. I do know that the A320 and the 737 are a perfect pair of competitors with strengths and weaknesses just like nearly everything else in this life. How their respective manufacturers go about positioning their unique capabilities through design decisions is where the real story exists and that is the bit that is interesting. At least to me. Cheers!
 
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:04 am

Airbus introduced an extension program that brings the cycle limit on pair with the 737, but Boeing still compares it to early A320s. Hence some comparisons are skewed.
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:14 am

KarelXWB wrote:
Airbus increased the cycle limits at some point in time, but Boeing still compares it to early A320s. Hence some comparisons are skewed.


KarelXWB, the cycle limit increase comes with increased inspections and other labor intensive maintenance tasks. Kindly see my earlier post regarding this. These changes do not come gratis - they come with an increase in cost and time away from revenue service.

Can I be candid? There's nothing wrong with being limited in some way. Every single commercial aircraft flying today is the result of compromises and limitations. One of the compromises on the A320 happens to be maintenance costs and longevity. The A320 design team has already pipped the 37 with increased cabin space, relative ease of operation, and a genius of a fly by wire system that allows minimally trained pilots to safely operate the aircraft, surrounded by a web of protections and for those highly trained among us, the aircraft makes life much, much easier. Elegant and brilliant! No doubt about it.

On the other side of that, the 737 is a veritable tractor in comparison when it comes to fly by wire technology. But the old gal is a tank and the new girl on the block (relatively) enjoys being pampered. And there should be nothing wrong with admitting that. My fellow professionals do not have a problem with it. Should the fact-seeking members of Airliners dot net be any different?

Apologies for the pontification. To expand the metaphor, I was feeling just a wee bit persecuted. Cheers! ( :
Last edited by HighBypass on Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:21 am

HighBypass wrote:
KarelXWB, the cycle limit increase comes with increased inspections and other labor intensive maintenance tasks. Kindly see my earlier post regarding this. These changes do not come gratis - they come with an increase in cost and time away from revenue service.


I do not deny. I question though why people focus so much on maintenance costs; some airlines replace their aircraft after 6 or 12 years and will never hit the cycle limit of the airframe.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:24 am

Natflyer wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
I have no idea about the tipping, but elevators and stabilizers should be more EFFECTIVE on a longer frame.

What I am really interested in is how the new MLG will affect field performance.


There, I fixed that for you.

The -10 does have higher MLW than the -9. Not by much, but still.
I have not flown the NGs, but I flew the 737 Classics and the -400 was an a** to stop compared to the -300s. Don't remember if they had same brakes or if -400 had larger ones. But I shudder to think of a 737 with MLW over 165,000lbs (78t)...


Thank you for the fix, I meant effective. My excuse is being dyslexic and writing fluently wrong in three languages, and spellchecker sometimes throws me a curve ball.
 
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:34 am

KarelXWB wrote:
HighBypass wrote:
KarelXWB, the cycle limit increase comes with increased inspections and other labor intensive maintenance tasks. Kindly see my earlier post regarding this. These changes do not come gratis - they come with an increase in cost and time away from revenue service.


I do not deny. I question though why people focus so much on maintenance costs; some airlines replace their aircraft after 6 or 12 years and will never hit the cycle limit of the airframe.


Excellent! I also agree with you there are those airlines that dispose of aircraft after a decade (or so) of service, although, I am betting we agree most major US carriers and those based in the EU seem to hang on a bit longer, yes?

For those carriers financially fortunate enough to quickly turnover their fleets, the longevity argument is indeed moot and the resulting casting off would be applicable to lease rates and residual values that take effect once such high-end operators are finished with them.

So it is tomAtoes for some, and tomatoes for others, yes? The air carrier groups that buy and maintain and fly their aircraft well past their D-checks are most likely more interested in maintenance costs. The operators that short lease or turnover their fleets regularly could care less about long-term maintenance costs. An examination of the fleets of the various players here bear these facts out.

Thank you, KarelXWB, by the way, for engaging my thinking rather than my person. You are a prince of guy. Cheers! To other thread readers and posters, please accept my apologies for the apparent jog to the left (or was it right?) this thread has taken.
 
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:50 am

The tiny windows on the A32X make me feel far more claustrophobic than the narrower cabin on the 737. I'd say cabin height on the A32X feels taller than the 737 and this is more perceptible. Otherwise I find the two AC comparable with a nod towards the 737 with its bigger windows.
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:14 am

HighBypass wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Airbus increased the cycle limits at some point in time, but Boeing still compares it to early A320s. Hence some comparisons are skewed.


KarelXWB, the cycle limit increase comes with increased inspections and other labor intensive maintenance tasks. Kindly see my earlier post regarding this. These changes do not come gratis - they come with an increase in cost and time away from revenue service. ( :


But early 737 went through the same procedure until they proved to be save with extended cycles. A 320 delivered today is very likely to not need the additional effort as the old fleet leaders will have provided inspection guidelines that will reduce the effort.
 
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:53 am

HighBypass wrote:
The A320 design team has already pipped the 37 with increased cabin space, relative ease of operation, and a genius of a fly by wire system that allows minimally trained pilots to safely operate the aircraft, surrounded by a web of protections and for those highly trained among us, the aircraft makes life much, much easier. Elegant and brilliant! No doubt about it.


I hope you are not implying that minimally trained pilots are not able to safely operate the 737 due to lack of a web of protections.
 
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:56 pm

HighBypass wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Airbus increased the cycle limits at some point in time, but Boeing still compares it to early A320s. Hence some comparisons are skewed.


KarelXWB, the cycle limit increase comes with increased inspections and other labor intensive maintenance tasks. Kindly see my earlier post regarding this. These changes do not come gratis - they come with an increase in cost and time away from revenue service.

Can I be candid? There's nothing wrong with being limited in some way. Every single commercial aircraft flying today is the result of compromises and limitations. One of the compromises on the A320 happens to be maintenance costs and longevity. The A320 design team has already pipped the 37 with increased cabin space, relative ease of operation, and a genius of a fly by wire system that allows minimally trained pilots to safely operate the aircraft, surrounded by a web of protections and for those highly trained among us, the aircraft makes life much, much easier. Elegant and brilliant! No doubt about it.

On the other side of that, the 737 is a veritable tractor in comparison when it comes to fly by wire technology. But the old gal is a tank and the new girl on the block (relatively) enjoys being pampered. And there should be nothing wrong with admitting that. My fellow professionals do not have a problem with it. Should the fact-seeking members of Airliners dot net be any different?

Apologies for the pontification. To expand the metaphor, I was feeling just a wee bit persecuted. Cheers! ( :


Just to reset the context of this particular discussion ....

HighBypass wrote:
okie73 wrote:
I predict most orders for the -10 will be from airlines that would have ordered the -9. I don't see anything to convince an airline to order the -10 over a 321NEO.


Unmatched (within class) dispatch reliability and maintenance savings are two commonly known motivations for airlines to choose the older, simpler 737 series over the single aisle Airbus, not to mention the vastly superior DSO (design service objective) numbers. Fleet commonality would, naturally, also be a practical and economic reason for those airlines that have not yet ordered replacements..


So this is specifically about whether dispatch reliability and maintenance savings are likely to motivate an airline to order a 737-10MAX over an A321NEO.
Both of which of course will be brand-new aircraft.

As a professional myself, I have observed that on this forum we expect our professionals to act professionally - i.e. when forwarding statements like "Unmatched (within class) dispatch reliability and maintenance savings" to the forum, to back these up with the evidence that demonstrates it. It is usually an excellent way to avoid implications of bias as a bonus ......

I have no doubts that in times past it would have been easy to supply said evidence.
In my own searches for this conversation I have found plenty favouring the 737.
None of them post-date 2012. But a new-build MAX or NEO most certainly will.

I can post a link to an airline with an all new A320 fleet (Indigo for what it's worth) who have won awards for achieving 99.9% dispatch reliability with their new fleet. Perfection only beats that by 0.1%.
"Cherry picking" you say?
No it's the only evidence I found germane to the latest builds, apart from the flightglobal link I posted earlier showing "later build" A320's averaging 99.7% dispatch reliability. A number I could find matched by the 737NG, but not beaten.

On the subject of Design Service Objectives, I also noted that the oldest A320's still flying have only just reached 51 000 cycles, making the 60 000 cycle DSO more than enough for just about every A320 that will ever be built, and certainly unlikely to be a factor in any new-build purchase.

That is my objective analysis, and why I contend that dispatch reliability and maintenance savings will almost certainly NOT be factors which make an operator choose a brand new 737-10 over a brand-new A321NEO.

As a fact-seeking member of Airliners dot net, I genuinely look forward to an informed rebuttal from a professional. It is how the less informed of us learn on here.

HighBypass wrote:
The A320 design team has already pipped the 37 with increased cabin space, relative ease of operation, and a genius of a fly by wire system that allows minimally trained pilots to safely operate the aircraft, surrounded by a web of protections


And this at least should put even the slightest of allegations of bias to bed ......... :scratchchin:

Rgds
 
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:04 pm

Finn350 wrote:
HighBypass wrote:
The A320 design team has already pipped the 37 with increased cabin space, relative ease of operation, and a genius of a fly by wire system that allows minimally trained pilots to safely operate the aircraft, surrounded by a web of protections and for those highly trained among us, the aircraft makes life much, much easier. Elegant and brilliant! No doubt about it.


I hope you are not implying that minimally trained pilots are not able to safely operate the 737 due to lack of a web of protections.


I have never flown or been in a simulator for an A320, but if there is an airline out there that believes envelope protections can compensate for poor training, then the regulatory authority should ground them. A plane flown in accordance to the AFM , FCOM and MEL will not need those protections. If a pilot is flying the airplane outside of those requirements then envelope protections aren't going to stop him from damaging the plane.

I honestly hope that no airline is buying one airplane over the other because they think the plane can make up for deficiencies in pilot training.
 
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:23 pm

Finn350 and Astuteman: It would seem the two of you are taking this conversation a bit too personally and have resorted to hyperbole in your arguments against my simple, truthful observations - observations that are well known. Apologies for providing truth. Perhaps this is not the place for such things. I will, if it seems helpful to the continued harmony of this forum, limit myself to the tech areas, if that is what is required to keep the (brokered, jiggered truth) peace. I would prefer we opt to be men and have real, honest conversations, with little or no regard to personal bias and a dash of open minded debate. Who's with me on that last bit?

Regarding training and the Airbus fly by wire system, should you wish to continue this sub-thread of a discussion, I would be more than glad to participate - elsewhere so as to not pollute this thread further.

On the subject of Design Service Objectives, I also noted that the oldest A320's still flying have only just reached 51 000 cycles, making the 60 000 cycle DSO


DSO is not an Airbus term, by the way. They use their own vernacular, known to the industry as DSG.
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:29 pm

AvObserver wrote:
FBWFTW wrote:
barney captain wrote:


So, you're saying you won't fly on this - simply because it's a 737?


Image


Off topic answer I suppose, but:
Yes, exactly that. Plus the chances of me flying Copa are slim to zero. Windows too low to see out very well, uncomfortable 17" seats and unless YOU are planning on finding a 73 with flatbeds AND gonna pay for me ;-p Then no I'm not flying on it if I can help it. I book based on comfort and cost. I flew Y on a pmCO 73 ONCE and it was heinous, also an AA 73, also heinous. Since those trips, as an adult I've booked to avoid the 73 like the plague. Luckily for me, my home airport has a heavy B6 and DL presence and for TATL, there's more A330’s and the odd few A359’s and even an A380 should the need arise! I remember flying on a USAir 732 and hating it compared to the Delta 75‘s and L10's I was used to. Also, when I was a kid and frightened of flying, 73‘s used to drop out the sky from bad rudders and such. (I wonder if that's maybe a reason why-I distinctly remember being petrified of them when I was young-but I LOVED the 72‘s) As for the NG's, there's this little thing too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaWdEtANi-0

Maybe you should've had therapy for this 737 phobia when you were young, given your bad experiences. I've flown both 737s and A320 series aircraft and found them rather similar, aside the the A320's noticeably wider cabin. That wider cabin however, doesn't make the A320 hands down preferable; otherwise 737 orders would largely die out. You're entitled to your preferences and fears but on the latter point, methinks your 737 aversion is now on a psychological level.


You could be 100% right-I never really thought about it until last night.
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:33 pm

tjh8402 wrote:
FBWFTW wrote:
barney captain wrote:


So, you're saying you won't fly on this - simply because it's a 737?


Image


Off topic answer I suppose, but:
Yes, exactly that. Plus the chances of me flying Copa are slim to zero. Windows too low to see out very well, uncomfortable 17" seats and unless YOU are planning on finding a 73 with flatbeds AND gonna pay for me ;-p Then no I'm not flying on it if I can help it. I book based on comfort and cost. I flew Y on a pmCO 73 ONCE and it was heinous, also an AA 73, also heinous. Since those trips, as an adult I've booked to avoid the 73 like the plague. Luckily for me, my home airport has a heavy B6 and DL presence and for TATL, there's more A330’s and the odd few A359’s and even an A380 should the need arise! I remember flying on a USAir 732 and hating it compared to the Delta 75‘s and L10's I was used to. Also, when I was a kid and frightened of flying, 73‘s used to drop out the sky from bad rudders and such. (I wonder if that's maybe a reason why-I distinctly remember being petrified of them when I was young-but I LOVED the 72‘s) As for the NG's, there's this little thing too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaWdEtANi-0


Funny how you love 75s and 72s which have the same cabin width and same 17" seat you despise in the 737.

I always poll family and friends when they fly if they notice extra space/width/comfort on any planes or if they even remember which they flew on. It's all just varying shades of misery most of the time. Most can't remember any plane types at all, and I've never had one person choose the Airbus as more comfortable. In fact my non avgeek boyfriend felt the opposite after flying both the 737 and A321 on AA. When I asked if he noticed one plane was more comfortable or spacious than the other, he picked the Boeing.

I was also a lot younger (and thus shorter) when I flew the 75 and 72. There was a period of 10 years (and many airline bankruptcies) from 1998-2008 where I hadn't flown, then I flew the two 73's one way and flew a JetBlue A320 back.
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:38 pm

HighBypass wrote:
KarelXWB, the cycle limit increase comes with increased inspections and other labor intensive maintenance tasks. Kindly see my earlier post regarding this. These changes do not come gratis - they come with an increase in cost and time away from revenue service.


Will it? (beyond the initial proving to authorities)

They should have enough data off the ceo now to have fairly accurate crack life for both threshold and repeat inspection intervals on the various critical PSEs.

Running back through all that data to increase the number of flights for concurrent growth at each site is largely paperwork only. Assuming the airframe is gonna be scrapped at the 2nd D-check, then an extension of life does not necessarily shorten the first D-check interval as it can be covered by the initial certified inspection regime. Any airframer of any competence should be able to pass that through the authorities.

After that, depending on how the paperwork is presented to the certifying authorities, yes, they may need to shorten up C-checks, or they can cover it with improved fidelity of their crack growth curves --- which I guess EASA will want to see evidence of from in service aircraft.
 
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:26 pm

HighBypass wrote:
Finn350 and Astuteman: It would seem the two of you are taking this conversation a bit too personally and have resorted to hyperbole in your arguments against my simple, truthful observations - observations that are well known. Apologies for providing truth. Perhaps this is not the place for such things. I will, if it seems helpful to the continued harmony of this forum, limit myself to the tech areas, if that is what is required to keep the (brokered, jiggered truth) peace. I would prefer we opt to be men and have real, honest conversations, with little or no regard to personal bias and a dash of open minded debate. Who's with me on that last bit?

Regarding training and the Airbus fly by wire system, should you wish to continue this sub-thread of a discussion, I would be more than glad to participate - elsewhere so as to not pollute this thread further.

On the subject of Design Service Objectives, I also noted that the oldest A320's still flying have only just reached 51 000 cycles, making the 60 000 cycle DSO


DSO is not an Airbus term, by the way. They use their own vernacular, known to the industry as DSG.


On the contrary, there has been nothing personal in my replies, and I haven't seen anything personal in your replies either. I was just genuinely wondering the implications of your statement regarding "minimally trained pilots".
 
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:47 pm

HighBypass wrote:
I would prefer we opt to be men and have real, honest conversations, with little or no regard to personal bias and a dash of open minded debate. Who's with me on that last bit?.


That would indeed have been my preference.

Thank you for the informative replies.

Rgds
 
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:35 pm

STT757 wrote:
Polot wrote:
Revelation wrote:
So hopefully those complaints about the -9 sitting on its will be going away.

I wonder if we will see a 737-9ER with some of the -10 improvements ported over to the -9 to increase its usability for longer flights.

VC10er wrote:
United has 100 MAX 9's, on order (wiki) I wonder if they will convert or add incremental units?

UA also has ~61 MAXs from the previous 73G commitment. I suspect if UA gets the -10 it would be from that order and not the -9s, a good portion of which will probably be delivered before the -10 is ready.


From what I've seen put out by Boeing today it will have the range for California - Hawaii. For UA if they ordered the 10, West Coast-Hawaii, EWR-Florida, ORD-LAS, IAH-CUN etc.. look like ideal routes. I could see them ordering around 30-40.


737-900ERs come to Hawaii now. But the runway requirements limit them to HNL ITO and KOA
 
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:15 am

Don;t think this has been reported yet but MAS plans to have 16 lie flat seats on their MAX 10s

16 lie-flat business class seats up front on MAS' #737MAX10, for "secondary and tertiary markets in China", says Bellew. #PAS17

https://twitter.com/thatjohn/status/877516631756476416

Furthermore it looks like MAS wants to emulate JetBlue's premium midhaul narrowbody service (aka Mint) with the MAX 10.
https://twitter.com/thatjohn/status/877516848958500866
 
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:19 am

ikolkyo wrote:
Don;t think this has been reported yet but MAS plans to have 16 lie flat seats on their MAX 10s

16 lie-flat business class seats up front on MAS' #737MAX10, for "secondary and tertiary markets in China", says Bellew. #PAS17

https://twitter.com/thatjohn/status/877516631756476416

Furthermore it looks like MAS wants to emulate JetBlue's premium midhaul narrowbody service (aka Mint) with the MAX 10.
https://twitter.com/thatjohn/status/877516848958500866


I saw the lie flat seats in the video. I assumed they were targeting UA and DL for the premium transcon market. Interesting that it's actually MH. Either way, it does answer the question of whether a 737 can have lie flat seats
 
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:31 am

tjh8402 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Don;t think this has been reported yet but MAS plans to have 16 lie flat seats on their MAX 10s

16 lie-flat business class seats up front on MAS' #737MAX10, for "secondary and tertiary markets in China", says Bellew. #PAS17

https://twitter.com/thatjohn/status/877516631756476416

Furthermore it looks like MAS wants to emulate JetBlue's premium midhaul narrowbody service (aka Mint) with the MAX 10.
https://twitter.com/thatjohn/status/877516848958500866


I saw the lie flat seats in the video. I assumed they were targeting UA and DL for the premium transcon market. Interesting that it's actually MH. Either way, it does answer the question of whether a 737 can have lie flat seats


737 and 757 have the same exact cabin, 737 could always have them. The question was who would be first to put them on it and I think we will start see it more on the MAX 10.
 
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:36 am

ikolkyo wrote:
tjh8402 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Don;t think this has been reported yet but MAS plans to have 16 lie flat seats on their MAX 10s


https://twitter.com/thatjohn/status/877516631756476416

Furthermore it looks like MAS wants to emulate JetBlue's premium midhaul narrowbody service (aka Mint) with the MAX 10.
https://twitter.com/thatjohn/status/877516848958500866


I saw the lie flat seats in the video. I assumed they were targeting UA and DL for the premium transcon market. Interesting that it's actually MH. Either way, it does answer the question of whether a 737 can have lie flat seats


737 and 757 have the same exact cabin, 737 could always have them. The question was who would be first to put them on it and I think we will start see it more on the MAX 10.


The questions I had seen raised was about the 737s floor (maybe having proper support?), not cabin width. I never said that it couldn't have them, just that the question has been asked before and never answered. Now we have an answer
 
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:49 am

Finn350 wrote:
On the contrary, there has been nothing personal in my replies, and I haven't seen anything personal in your replies either. I was just genuinely wondering the implications of your statement regarding "minimally trained pilots".


That's the beauty of the Airbus FBW system. It works extremely well for those countries outside of the US where new-hire, high time pilots are comparatively scarce and the 0 to ATPL license is common. I did not mean to suggest the amount of training required for a type rating is no less rigorous than on other transport category aircraft, so the phrase may have been a clumsy way for me to convey my point. And apologies if I read you wrong, Finn350.
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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos