fcogafa
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BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:42 pm

BA have applied to the CAA to use 9 Qatar registered Airbus 320/1 for up to 2 months to cover during the upcoming strike!

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/2227.pdf
 
BlueberryWheats
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:58 pm

Well well well, I wonder what some certain other countries will make of this.
 
TC957
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:04 pm

Cool idea ! QR have lots of spares with the cancellations of services to the UAE etc, so seems a great idea to me. Plus a rare chance to spot some QR 320/321's in LHR ! ( except the VIP ones of course ).
 
migair54
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:08 pm

BA can also have some EK big birds flying if they need, few of them are parked because EK has reduced some flights, so if they need long haul machinery they can get some pretty fast. I guess QR has some planes that can do the job too.
 
ExDubai
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:24 pm

migair54 wrote:
BA can also have some EK big birds flying if they need, few of them are parked because EK has reduced some flights, so if they need long haul machinery they can get some pretty fast. I guess QR has some planes that can do the job too.

No need to support an enemy of a mayor shareholder ;)
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B747forever
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:27 pm

Wonder if they will do BOB on those QR flights, or just no service at all.
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BENAir01
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:13 pm

This'll certainly be interesting.
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JannEejit
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:55 pm

Oh dear, further evidence of the demise of BA.
 
JulietteBravo
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:14 am

Quite irritating to me - is BA really in such a bad condition that they have to engage strike breakers from Quatar instead of finding a solution with the unions?
 
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mercure1
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:15 am

If not QR aircraft, then BA will lease in other capacity as it has done during other recent strikes.

I see no issue with using QR planes, particularly inlight of BA and QR relations in OW and QR investment in IAG.
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aemoreira1981
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:39 am

JulietteBravo wrote:
Quite irritating to me - is BA really in such a bad condition that they have to engage strike breakers from Quatar instead of finding a solution with the unions?


I don't think BA is in a bad situation. They are probably just playing hardball. This might well work. That said, there is one narrow-body route that can't be covered with such equipment: LHR-TLV (one frequency usually uses an A321 with Club World).
 
anshabhi
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:31 am

Is BA confident that QR blockade is not going to be lifted anytime soon?
 
rufusmi
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:55 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
JulietteBravo wrote:
Quite irritating to me - is BA really in such a bad condition that they have to engage strike breakers from Quatar instead of finding a solution with the unions?


I don't think BA is in a bad situation. They are probably just playing hardball. This might well work. That said, there is one narrow-body route that can't be covered with such equipment: LHR-TLV (one frequency usually uses an A321 with Club World).


Many QR A320s have even nicer lie-flat seats in J. A few less seats than the A321, but it should suffice.
 
needmolegroom
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:56 am

JannEejit wrote:
Oh dear, further evidence of the demise of BA.


The claim to be 'The World's Favourite Airline' was a long long time ago, and then there were some bad moves.........
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DeltaB717
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:57 am

BlueberryWheats wrote:
Well well well, I wonder what some certain other countries will make of this.


It hasn't a thing to do with any of those other countries. It's purely between BA, QR, the CAA and the MoT.
 
LHRFlyer
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:30 am

JulietteBravo wrote:
Quite irritating to me - is BA really in such a bad condition that they have to engage strike breakers from Quatar instead of finding a solution with the unions?


I understand a pay deal has been agreed with the unions. The issue is what the union sees as punitive measures against those who went on strike, such as loss of travel benefits. I understand the union is pursuing legal action against BA but won't let the pay issue be resolved without these other matters still going on.
 
c933103
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:59 am

anshabhi wrote:
Is BA confident that QR blockade is not going to be lifted anytime soon?

I would think they would have at least some usual lease contract that would have QR lease the aircraft for two months, so a more apporipate question would probably be is QR confident about they won't be using those planes anytime soon
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TheGeordielad
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:51 am

Is it the mixed crew going on strike?
 
anstar
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:00 am

I wonder if the CAA will allow the use of foreign (ie outside the EU) wetleases?
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:36 am

I guess Titan is unable to meet all BA's needs. The cost of the strike to BA is going to be very large, surely better to settle the perks side of things.
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jomur
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:54 am

readytotaxi wrote:
I guess Titan is unable to meet all BA's needs. The cost of the strike to BA is going to be very large, surely better to settle the perks side of things.


Gone past that stage, in the long run will still be cheaper for BA to not give in especially as the last few strikes haven't really affected BA's service with only a few short haul cancellations. Sorry I agree with BA on this one. They are perks which are not part of the contract of employment and are given by the whim of the employer for those that they seem worthy, going om strike isn't one of these. If the Union wins then I can see the perks being withdrawn from all staff at all times.
 
anshabhi
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:56 am

anstar wrote:
I wonder if the CAA will allow the use of foreign (ie outside the EU) wetleases?

Why won't they...?

They do. https://www.caa.co.uk/Commercial-indust ... p-leasing/
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Noshow
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:22 am

Time to repaint them BAtar Airways.
 
B777LRF
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:19 am

SAS has effectively removed the testicles of their ground handling unions, by removing non-rev priviliges for anyone who goes on strike. Indeed the staff, especially the younger ones, are much more interested in cheap flights to Bangers, than securing long-term conditions. Short sighted doesn't half cover it, but that's the mentality of today.

BA saw it, liked what they saw, and dished the same out to their staff.

As for chartering in equipment to break a strike, there's a word for people who does that. Trouble is, for QR employees there's no union protection or, indeed, any labour protection to fall back on, when faced with these tasks. It stinks to high heaven, and will do nothing but further erode the respect BA once commanded.
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axiom
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:25 am

Pretty sleazy move by BA management, imo.
 
flyby519
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:41 am

[threeid][/threeid]
TC957 wrote:
Cool idea ! QR have lots of spares with the cancellations of services to the UAE etc, so seems a great idea to me. Plus a rare chance to spot some QR 320/321's in LHR ! ( except the VIP ones of course ).


Is this common in other parts of the world? In the US if ANY flight crew employees of ANY carrier participated in strike breaking then they would be labeled as a scab and their future grandchildren would feel the pain because of it. I'm quite shocked at this...
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:49 am

The strike might even end up saving BA money.
 
Egerton
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:43 am

If a BA employee is uncomfortable with the contract by which he or she is employed, that employee should seek other employment else where. UK is a free country. In London where there is negligible un-employment, nobody should have difficulty getting a new job.
 
TC957
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:52 am

flyby519 wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
TC957 wrote:
Cool idea ! QR have lots of spares with the cancellations of services to the UAE etc, so seems a great idea to me. Plus a rare chance to spot some QR 320/321's in LHR ! ( except the VIP ones of course ).


Is this common in other parts of the world? In the US if ANY flight crew employees of ANY carrier participated in strike breaking then they would be labeled as a scab and their future grandchildren would feel the pain because of it. I'm quite shocked at this...


I am of course looking at this as an airliner enthusiast and not as a BA insider. Plus I'm sure many UK citizens working as QR crew would welcome the chance to be LHR based for a few weeks over summer.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:55 am

It is not a good idea for BA to introduce its loyal passengers content with BA cabins to higher standard clean cabins.

I don't think QR crew are capable of serving Mini Mars as a second meal, or a single bread roll/water to a diabetic and if anyone complains drop them of at some remote airforce base. It needs years of training and brainwashing.
 
skyhawkmatthew
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:57 am

rufusmi wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
JulietteBravo wrote:
Quite irritating to me - is BA really in such a bad condition that they have to engage strike breakers from Quatar instead of finding a solution with the unions?


I don't think BA is in a bad situation. They are probably just playing hardball. This might well work. That said, there is one narrow-body route that can't be covered with such equipment: LHR-TLV (one frequency usually uses an A321 with Club World).


Many QR A320s have even nicer lie-flat seats in J. A few less seats than the A321, but it should suffice.


There are a few slightly bigger issues than hard product on board with regards to Qatari aircraft operating to Israel...
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Cunard
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:57 am

JulietteBravo wrote:
Quite irritating to me - is BA really in such a bad condition that they have to engage strike breakers from Quatar instead of finding a solution with the unions?


It is QATAR not QUATAR.

It's like putting QUANTAS rather than QANTAS.

With QR being a major shareholder of BA I can see this as an ideal move although in all honesty it won't happen as the demands will met by both sides in one way or another and the strike will inevitably be called off but not until the very last moment so it makes sense for BA to have a contingency plan in case the strike does go ahead.
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planewasted
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:09 am

Wow. Qatar has proper business class seats in their narrow bodies. Good for Club Europe customers.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:16 am

AAB is on record saying he is short on NBs because of NEO issues he is not able to open new stations. How can he accommodate BA?
 
flyboy_se
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:24 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
AAB is on record saying he is short on NBs because of NEO issues he is not able to open new stations. How can he accommodate BA?


The blockade solved that problem, now they have excess capacity. 19 destinations are blocked, majority operated with 320, several multiple daily.
I prefer to be crazy and happy rather than normal and bitter
 
mjoelnir
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:43 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
AAB is on record saying he is short on NBs because of NEO issues he is not able to open new stations. How can he accommodate BA?


Because he can not use the frames because of the embargo?
 
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winterlight
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:17 pm

AAB is short of A320s because he threw his toys out of the pram and refused to take the NEOs.
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BENAir01
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:23 pm

skyhawkmatthew wrote:
rufusmi wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:

I don't think BA is in a bad situation. They are probably just playing hardball. This might well work. That said, there is one narrow-body route that can't be covered with such equipment: LHR-TLV (one frequency usually uses an A321 with Club World).


Many QR A320s have even nicer lie-flat seats in J. A few less seats than the A321, but it should suffice.


There are a few slightly bigger issues than hard product on board with regards to Qatari aircraft operating to Israel...

Judging by the fact that BA is only taking 9 QR aircraft, and that BA has more then 9 narrowbodies, I think they'll be ok finding planes to opperate TLV. The QR planes clearly aren't meant to operate all BA routes
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3rdGen
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:54 pm

winterlight wrote:
AAB is short of A320s because he threw his toys out of the pram and refused to take the NEOs.


Shows how much you know. The NEOs with PW engines are having major problems all over the world. Indigo airlines has limited theirs to FL300. He just feels that his airline is not going to be a test bed for those engines. We all bitched about him when he did it but he was right.

You should becomes a salesman. Tell unhappy customers that they should suck it up and stick with defective or inadequate products.
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JulietteBravo
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:24 am

Cunard wrote:
JulietteBravo wrote:
Quite irritating to me - is BA really in such a bad condition that they have to engage strike breakers from Quatar instead of finding a solution with the unions?


It is QATAR not QUATAR.

It's like putting QUANTAS rather than QANTAS.

With QR being a major shareholder of BA I can see this as an ideal move although in all honesty it won't happen as the demands will met by both sides in one way or another and the strike will inevitably be called off but not until the very last moment so it makes sense for BA to have a contingency plan in case the strike does go ahead.


I apologize for that. Im terribly sorry: QATAR. Of course not Quatar.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:15 am

axiom wrote:
Pretty sleazy move by BA management, imo.


Sleazy? Sure...but I would do it in their position. You have to maintain your leverage.

3rdGen wrote:
winterlight wrote:
AAB is short of A320s because he threw his toys out of the pram and refused to take the NEOs.


Shows how much you know. The NEOs with PW engines are having major problems all over the world. Indigo airlines has limited theirs to FL300. He just feels that his airline is not going to be a test bed for those engines. We all bitched about him when he did it but he was right.

You should becomes a salesman. Tell unhappy customers that they should suck it up and stick with defective or inadequate products.


How does the CFM LEAP perform under hot and high conditions? Has QR considered an engine change for its A320neos?
 
travaz
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:07 am

This is a big chess game. The unions have thier tool to force the issue and the Company has theirs.I just could never figure out why the unions would try to kill the hand that feeds them. There are certain realities all companies face and that is there is not unlimited money. The sad thing is that the customer is the one that usually gets screwed
 
kabq737
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:16 am

Which aircraft would these be filling in for? Is mixed fleet the Airbus fleet?
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TC957
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:38 am

kabq737 wrote:
Which aircraft would these be filling in for? Is mixed fleet the Airbus fleet?

Since the talk is of bringing in 9 QR A320/1's in it's safe to assume it's the BA A320/1 fleet.
 
Andy33
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:34 am

kabq737 wrote:
Which aircraft would these be filling in for? Is mixed fleet the Airbus fleet?


Mixed Fleet is the new hire crew members since 2011. The legacy crew fleets Eurofleet (shorthaul with A320 series and 763s) and Worldwide (longhaul with 747/777/787/A380) consist of people who joined before 2011, or who came with British Midland when it was acquired, and aren't involved in the dispute. Between them these two still cover about 60% of BA flights from LHR.
As the name suggests, Mixed Fleet spans both shorthaul and longhaul rotations (and what BA calls midhaul) so everyone is current on A320 series plus two of the longhaul aircraft families. UK regs don't permit crew to be current on more than 3 aircraft families.
And Mixed Fleet only operates out of LHR crew base. There is a separate crew fleet (not involved in the dispute) based at LGW covering A320 series and 777 flights from there, and the A318 flights from LCY. The Embraer BA flights from LCY are on a different AOC (BA Cityflyer) and union agreement again. Then there are International crew bases in various countries, not as many as there used to be, supplying language qualified crew members, they're not involved in the dispute either.
If QR does operate flights for BA, they'll be helping to cover the shorthaul or midhaul (A321 with lie flat J) components of Mixed Fleet work. Bear in mind that under UK employment law, people are not obliged to join a union or participate in strikes if they do join, and somewhere between a third and a quarter of Mixed Fleet have chosen not to join the union. Historically, within BA, if people who are union members vote against a strike, but the majority votes for, they're quite likely to turn up for work and ignore any picket lines - and picketing the crew report centre or the staff car parks would be illegal anyway. So by no means all Mixed Fleet flights will need to be replaced by other airlines or cancelled, somewhere around 50-60% will fly with non-striking Mixed Fleet crew.
Now we're down to maybe 20% of BA departures from LHR uncovered by regular BA cabin crew/flight attendants. There are staff in other departments who are crew-qualified and maintain currency, and may be asked to help fill in, and finally there are wetleases.
 
Egerton
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:43 am

Thanks Andy33. I assume that in principle UK law or regulation permits dismissals of folk who offend against their contracts of employment? I assume that there are procedures or processes which the employer has to deal with to avoid unfair dismissals?

Whet I do not understand is if an employee of BA goes on strike or threatens to do so (as in the case of some mixed feet BA people), why have they not been dismissed?
 
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moo
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:53 am

Egerton wrote:
Thanks Andy33. I assume that in principle UK law or regulation permits dismissals of folk who offend against their contracts of employment? I assume that there are procedures or processes which the employer has to deal with to avoid unfair dismissals?

Whet I do not understand is if an employee of BA goes on strike or threatens to do so (as in the case of some mixed feet BA people), why have they not been dismissed?


If the strike is legal, as in the ballot has been done under the proper process which meets the legal duty required, workers cannot be sacked for going on strike - it isnt considered an actionable breach of their contract.
 
Andy33
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:12 am

moo wrote:
Egerton wrote:
Thanks Andy33. I assume that in principle UK law or regulation permits dismissals of folk who offend against their contracts of employment? I assume that there are procedures or processes which the employer has to deal with to avoid unfair dismissals?

Whet I do not understand is if an employee of BA goes on strike or threatens to do so (as in the case of some mixed feet BA people), why have they not been dismissed?


If the strike is legal, as in the ballot has been done under the proper process which meets the legal duty required, workers cannot be sacked for going on strike - it isnt considered an actionable breach of their contract.


Moo is absolutely right. The right of workers to strike over-rides any employment contract in UK law. But there is a laid down procedure which requires balloting, and notice being given. Only the group of workers that is in dispute gets this legal protection. Other groups can't join in in sympathy, whether they have the same employer or not. If the laid down procedure isn't followed, employers will take the union to court rather than dismiss the employees. If it can be proved that the procedure wasn't followed, courts will issue an injunction against the union ordering them to withdraw the strike call. If the union ignores this they are in contempt of court and substantial fines (and in theory at least, imprisonment of the union's executive members) will follow. If the union does withdraw the strike call, which they always do under these circumstances, but the employees still strike, that's when the individual strikers become dismissable. You can't legally be dismissed for striking if the strike was called following the correct procedure.
 
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3rdGen
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:21 am

Qatars 321s are all pretty old and none of them have lie flats. The newer 320s do. But QR normally flies the older 320s on the gulf route and for BAH and DMM they often use the al-maha 320s which have reduced pitch and leg room in economy.

The newer 320s with the lie flats are used for Europe.

So if Qatar have 320s to spare they aren't going to be the new ones.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
Egerton
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Re: BA applies to use Qatari aircraft to cover strike

Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:51 am

Andy33 wrote:
moo wrote:
Egerton wrote:
Thanks Andy33. I assume that in principle UK law or regulation permits dismissals of folk who offend against their contracts of employment? I assume that there are procedures or processes which the employer has to deal with to avoid unfair dismissals?

Whet I do not understand is if an employee of BA goes on strike or threatens to do so (as in the case of some mixed feet BA people), why have they not been dismissed?


If the strike is legal, as in the ballot has been done under the proper process which meets the legal duty required, workers cannot be sacked for going on strike - it isnt considered an actionable breach of their contract.


Moo is absolutely right. The right of workers to strike over-rides any employment contract in UK law. But there is a laid down procedure which requires balloting, and notice being given. Only the group of workers that is in dispute gets this legal protection. Other groups can't join in in sympathy, whether they have the same employer or not. If the laid down procedure isn't followed, employers will take the union to court rather than dismiss the employees. If it can be proved that the procedure wasn't followed, courts will issue an injunction against the union ordering them to withdraw the strike call. If the union ignores this they are in contempt of court and substantial fines (and in theory at least, imprisonment of the union's executive members) will follow. If the union does withdraw the strike call, which they always do under these circumstances, but the employees still strike, that's when the individual strikers become dismissable. You can't legally be dismissed for striking if the strike was called following the correct procedure.


Thanks. So if a group of cabin crew go though the process 4 times, get a majority 4 times, they can strike 4 times? This seems odd to me. Why don't those that vote to strike get another job?

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