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LHRFlyer
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:14 pm

If DL and VS can't collectively make ORD and PHL work but what is there left other than major hubs and gateways like JFK and ATL?

It's remarkable how much lower profile VS has in the UK now. It used to get so much free press on the BBC and in the newspapers so easily. Now a lot of younger leisure passengers are flying DY from LGW and AA/BA have the frequent flyers.
 
msycajun
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:18 pm

superjeff wrote:
msycajun wrote:
It would be great to see CVG get a flight to LHR. I wouldn't be surprised to see DL try to push AA off of RDU-LHR as well. It's hard to imagine any other medium airport getting it with few connections and loyal fliers on the LHR end. Most of the US hubs have plenty of service already. There is also the possibility of leasing some slots to VS to build some onward connecting possibilities.


I think AA has a decent following in RDU, and, at the London end, the joint venture with BA makes them a powerhouse. Delta can't compete, even with VS. They do have a strong following in RDU as well as AA, perhaps even a bit stronger, but not enough to make a difference. AA isn't going to lose the drug contracts that drive this flight easily.


There is no question that Delta is stronger in RDU. It's not even close. If DL added LHR, it would definitely win the contracts with its combination of CDG and far superior domestic network out of RDU. Once DL gets those contracts, AA would almost certainly drop and DL would have the market to itself, and could supplement the o&d with connections.
 
ASQ400
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:35 pm

klm617 wrote:
I hope this means they can go back to double daily from Detroit

Those loads are low as is. Much more likely to see them add another city than to add a second frequency ex-DTW.
TLV, BRU, ZRH, CDG, FRA, EWR, JFK, DEN, SFO, AUS, RNO, SEA, YYC, YYZ, IAH, ATL, IAD, DCA, ORD, SJC, SNA
 
commavia
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:47 pm

msycajun wrote:
There is no question that Delta is stronger in RDU. It's not even close. If DL added LHR, it would definitely win the contracts with its combination of CDG and far superior domestic network out of RDU. Once DL gets those contracts, AA would almost certainly drop and DL would have the market to itself, and could supplement the o&d with connections.


Meh. Actually, it is pretty close - YTD through April, barely 15% separated the two airlines' overall enplanements out of RDU. That may sound like a lot, but in truth that separates the two brands by barely four percentage points in market share and overall both airlines have less than a third of the airport's traffic (31% and 27%).

The truth is that while, "no question," Delta has a far stronger offering of nonstop routes out of RDU, AA still has quite a compelling offering of its own for RDU-area travelers, as evidenced by the significant volume AA still carries at the airport. Now it's true, AA today is almost entirely down to "just" its hubs out of RDU, and as I've said many times before, I continue to be mystified by AA's unwillingness to reenter RDU-BOS, which is the most glaring O&D market missing for AA at RDU (and one of only two or three from BOS). But of course all that being said, as has been observed at length in discussions about RDU and many other U.S. airports, AA flying to "just" its hubs out of RDU these days happens to encompass some of the largest and most relevant business centers and O&D markets in the U.S., not to mention extensive connectivity beyond those hubs to markets big and small throughout the U.S. and the world.

And that goes for LHR, too. The RDU-LHR route is more than just a few corporate contracts, and indeed in this day and age, I'm skeptical as to whether that alone would be sufficient to make the route work. Needless to say, LHR is - effectively - a hub market for AA with extensive beyond connectivity, and as another person already mentioned, Delta could never match that connectivity at LHR. So much as I'm sure Delta would love nothing more than scoring the psychological victory of such a visible "kill," I remain skeptical of Delta's ability to viably serve that market - at least for now.

If this PHL-LHR slot pair is freed up for use elsewhere and isn't being reallocated to fill in the soon-to-be-relinquished BOS-LHR slot pair, I would still personally expect it to be used for a flight to another Delta hub.
 
ldvaviation
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:49 pm

msycajun wrote:

There is no question that Delta is stronger in RDU. It's not even close. If DL added LHR, it would definitely win the contracts with its combination of CDG and far superior domestic network out of RDU. Once DL gets those contracts, AA would almost certainly drop and DL would have the market to itself, and could supplement the o&d with connections.


GSK (AA's most important contract from RDU) is a British company. If they drop the AA contract, they would also be dropping their contract with BA.

How are they going to get around the UK and EU without BA? VS is not an adequate substitute for BA, not even close.
 
usairways85
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:46 pm

ldvaviation wrote:
msycajun wrote:

There is no question that Delta is stronger in RDU. It's not even close. If DL added LHR, it would definitely win the contracts with its combination of CDG and far superior domestic network out of RDU. Once DL gets those contracts, AA would almost certainly drop and DL would have the market to itself, and could supplement the o&d with connections.


GSK (AA's most important contract from RDU) is a British company. If they drop the AA contract, they would also be dropping their contract with BA.

How are they going to get around the UK and EU without BA? VS is not an adequate substitute for BA, not even close.

GSK also has a large operation in PHL. If DL couldn't win that contract at this point it's pretty obvious they won't win it when they exit PHL-LHR.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:54 pm

enilria wrote:
They are probably acquiring slots to build desperately needed connectivity not add USA flights.

Connections to where?
India with 9W aside, neither airline has expressed much interest in using LHR as a transfer hub together.


atl100million wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
atl100million wrote:
KE or DL could also bring PHL's first service to East Asia.

What makes you think that?

PHL is a large enough city to have service to East Asia. AA/JL have had the opportunity to start PHL-NRT service but don’t seem interested or willing to pull the trigger. The chances of new gateways to ICN increase significantly with the DL-KE JV.

If the largest carrier, with the largest corporate patronage, the most experience with the market, and dual hubs on each end... doesn't see a compelling interest in offering an east Asian nonstop, then chances are that it wouldn't be all that comparatively lucrative, else they would've done it already. There's very few barriers to them doing so.

In the meantime, DL/KE have much softer targets to hit:
the resumption of BOS and DEN, easy adds like MSP, SLC, and PDX, or even some wildcards like adding SAN, SJC, or YYC-- all three of whom have been actively courting them.



777PHX wrote:
The entirety of AA flights ex-US are operated by newish 77Ws, freshly upgraded 77Es, and new 788s, along with A330s

At least as of now, the 789s are on it too.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
ty97
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:06 pm

msycajun wrote:

There is no question that Delta is stronger in RDU. It's not even close. If DL added LHR, it would definitely win the contracts with its combination of CDG and far superior domestic network out of RDU. Once DL gets those contracts, AA would almost certainly drop and DL would have the market to itself, and could supplement the o&d with connections.


I'm not convinced. DL would have to make RDU-LHR work with a high portion of O&D. AA is able to capture a combination of O&D plus connections to Europe on BA. DL/VS could not replicate that. This is precisely why DL runs RDU-CDG (where connections are aplenty) rather than RDU-LHR. (AA would similarly struggle if they ever tried RDU-CDG or RDU-AMS, which they certainly will not do)
 
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:13 pm

I can't see RDU-LHR working for DL. If AA exited the market they would jump in immediately, but right now the market is too small for two flights. If DL tried they would come off worse as AA have the feed on the London end, so can serve RDU-Europe whereas DL would be trying to serve only the relatively small O&D market.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
jfk777
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:14 pm

Delta's use of Virgin have made Virgin do some "funny things." DL has turned Virgins's Asian network into a shadow of its former self. Virgin Atlantic first Asian city was Tokyo, they stopped flying to Narita about 3 years ago. Virgins's only two remaining Asian cities are Shanghai and Hong Kong. Who knows when they will ditch those.

VA is now flying to Detroit and Atlanta, two Delta hubs, bringing the Virgin product to cities which probably wouldn't have it otherwise. Is Virgin's mission to be a UK airline for Delta's focus or to serve the UK market to important destinations ? Virgin does fly to India, South Africa, Nigeria and Dubai which except for India are of little value to DL via Virgin.( DL does fly to Johannesburg from ATL). Virgin Atlantic needs to focus on its primary mission to serve the destinations the British wants to fly to including the Pacific region of the world, Tokyo is severely missing from Virgin's route system.

Virgin established itself in the USA with its unique brand in coastal cities east and west, That is its market here. Virgin discovered in Chicago flying to fortress hubs didn't work very well. Delta flights to London from ATL and DTW should be on Delta planes not Virgin's. The Virgin flights to Delta's hubs are flights which could go to a stronger Virgin destinations, Delta shouldn't need Virgin's help in ATL. Virgin's 787 need to fly to Singapore and Haneda, flying to Atlanta is just boring.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:24 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Delta's use of Virgin have made Virgin do some "funny things." DL has turned Virgins's Asian network into a shadow of its former self. Virgin Atlantic first Asian city was Tokyo, they stopped flying to Narita about 3 years ago. Virgins's only two remaining Asian cities are Shanghai and Hong Kong. Who knows when they will ditch those.

VA is now flying to Detroit and Atlanta, two Delta hubs, bringing the Virgin product to cities which probably wouldn't have it otherwise. Is Virgin's mission to be a UK airline for Delta's focus or to serve the UK market to important destinations ? Virgin does fly to India, South Africa, Nigeria and Dubai which except for India are of little value to DL via Virgin.( DL does fly to Johannesburg from ATL). Virgin Atlantic needs to focus on its primary mission to serve the destinations the British wants to fly to including the Pacific region of the world, Tokyo is severely missing from Virgin's route system.

Virgin established itself in the USA with its unique brand in coastal cities east and west, That is its market here. Virgin discovered in Chicago flying to fortress hubs didn't work very well. Delta flights to London from ATL and DTW should be on Delta planes not Virgin's. The Virgin flights to Delta's hubs are flights which could go to a stronger Virgin destinations, Delta shouldn't need Virgin's help in ATL. Virgin's 787 need to fly to Singapore and Haneda, flying to Atlanta is just boring.


The old British-centred version of VS did not make any money despite its valuable LHR assets. It was pretty much a vanity project for SRB.

Delta is trying to leverage VS fleet and slot holdings to maximize return, even if that means flying to "un-hip" but profitable destinations like DTW and ATL. The ME3 and Chinese carriers have pretty much destroyed VS's prospects in Asia so why throw good money after bad. There is only so much a point-to-point carrier like VS can do...
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:37 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Delta's use of Virgin have made Virgin do some "funny things." DL has turned Virgins's Asian network into a shadow of its former self. Virgin Atlantic first Asian city was Tokyo, they stopped flying to Narita about 3 years ago. Virgins's only two remaining Asian cities are Shanghai and Hong Kong. Who knows when they will ditch those.

VA is now flying to Detroit and Atlanta, two Delta hubs, bringing the Virgin product to cities which probably wouldn't have it otherwise. Is Virgin's mission to be a UK airline for Delta's focus or to serve the UK market to important destinations ? Virgin does fly to India, South Africa, Nigeria and Dubai which except for India are of little value to DL via Virgin.( DL does fly to Johannesburg from ATL). Virgin Atlantic needs to focus on its primary mission to serve the destinations the British wants to fly to including the Pacific region of the world, Tokyo is severely missing from Virgin's route system.

Virgin established itself in the USA with its unique brand in coastal cities east and west, That is its market here. Virgin discovered in Chicago flying to fortress hubs didn't work very well. Delta flights to London from ATL and DTW should be on Delta planes not Virgin's. The Virgin flights to Delta's hubs are flights which could go to a stronger Virgin destinations, Delta shouldn't need Virgin's help in ATL. Virgin's 787 need to fly to Singapore and Haneda, flying to Atlanta is just boring.


The old British-centred version of VS did not make any money despite its valuable LHR assets. It was pretty much a vanity project for SRB.

Delta is trying to leverage VS fleet and slot holdings to maximize return, even if that means flying to "un-hip" but profitable destinations like DTW and ATL. The ME3 and Chinese carriers have pretty much destroyed VS's prospects in Asia so why throw good money after bad. There is only so much a point-to-point carrier like VS can do...


Precisely, and generally speaking, VS has turned around financially. IIRC they still posts a loss in some quarters, but are profitable for the year. This is a big difference than prior to DL's acquisition of the shares.

See 2016 financials: http://www.virginatlantic.com/gb/en/med ... sults.html

Previous years’ Virgin Atlantic Ltd figures were:
•y/e Dec 2015: £22.5m Group profit (IFRS)
•y/e Dec 2014: £12.4m Group profit (restated for IFRS)
•y/e Dec 2013: (£51m) Group loss (UK GAAP)
•y/e Dec 2012: (£102m) Group loss (UK GAAP)

The DL acquisition and the restructuring were in June/July 2013.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:54 pm

VS ended DTW and they exchanged it for SEA, DTW splits with PDX or something crazy like that.
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11725Flyer
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:59 pm

msycajun wrote:
superjeff wrote:
msycajun wrote:
It would be great to see CVG get a flight to LHR. I wouldn't be surprised to see DL try to push AA off of RDU-LHR as well. It's hard to imagine any other medium airport getting it with few connections and loyal fliers on the LHR end. Most of the US hubs have plenty of service already. There is also the possibility of leasing some slots to VS to build some onward connecting possibilities.


I think AA has a decent following in RDU, and, at the London end, the joint venture with BA makes them a powerhouse. Delta can't compete, even with VS. They do have a strong following in RDU as well as AA, perhaps even a bit stronger, but not enough to make a difference. AA isn't going to lose the drug contracts that drive this flight easily.


There is no question that Delta is stronger in RDU. It's not even close. If DL added LHR, it would definitely win the contracts with its combination of CDG and far superior domestic network out of RDU. Once DL gets those contracts, AA would almost certainly drop and DL would have the market to itself, and could supplement the o&d with connections.


Totally agree. It may take a year or two, but I strongly agree that DL will build up more domestic feed (i.e. MSY) and then start service to LHR.
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:18 am

jfk777 wrote:
Delta's use of Virgin have made Virgin do some "funny things." DL has turned Virgins's Asian network into a shadow of its former self. Virgin Atlantic first Asian city was Tokyo, they stopped flying to Narita about 3 years ago. Virgins's only two remaining Asian cities are Shanghai and Hong Kong. Who knows when they will ditch those.

VA is now flying to Detroit and Atlanta, two Delta hubs, bringing the Virgin product to cities which probably wouldn't have it otherwise. Is Virgin's mission to be a UK airline for Delta's focus or to serve the UK market to important destinations ? Virgin does fly to India, South Africa, Nigeria and Dubai which except for India are of little value to DL via Virgin.( DL does fly to Johannesburg from ATL). Virgin Atlantic needs to focus on its primary mission to serve the destinations the British wants to fly to including the Pacific region of the world, Tokyo is severely missing from Virgin's route system.

Virgin established itself in the USA with its unique brand in coastal cities east and west, That is its market here. Virgin discovered in Chicago flying to fortress hubs didn't work very well. Delta flights to London from ATL and DTW should be on Delta planes not Virgin's. The Virgin flights to Delta's hubs are flights which could go to a stronger Virgin destinations, Delta shouldn't need Virgin's help in ATL. Virgin's 787 need to fly to Singapore and Haneda, flying to Atlanta is just boring.


VA does not fly to DTW and neither does VS.
 
jfk777
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:31 am

usflyer msp wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Delta's use of Virgin have made Virgin do some "funny things." DL has turned Virgins's Asian network into a shadow of its former self. Virgin Atlantic first Asian city was Tokyo, they stopped flying to Narita about 3 years ago. Virgins's only two remaining Asian cities are Shanghai and Hong Kong. Who knows when they will ditch those.

VA is now flying to Detroit and Atlanta, two Delta hubs, bringing the Virgin product to cities which probably wouldn't have it otherwise. Is Virgin's mission to be a UK airline for Delta's focus or to serve the UK market to important destinations ? Virgin does fly to India, South Africa, Nigeria and Dubai which except for India are of little value to DL via Virgin.( DL does fly to Johannesburg from ATL). Virgin Atlantic needs to focus on its primary mission to serve the destinations the British wants to fly to including the Pacific region of the world, Tokyo is severely missing from Virgin's route system.

Virgin established itself in the USA with its unique brand in coastal cities east and west, That is its market here. Virgin discovered in Chicago flying to fortress hubs didn't work very well. Delta flights to London from ATL and DTW should be on Delta planes not Virgin's. The Virgin flights to Delta's hubs are flights which could go to a stronger Virgin destinations, Delta shouldn't need Virgin's help in ATL. Virgin's 787 need to fly to Singapore and Haneda, flying to Atlanta is just boring.


The old British-centred version of VS did not make any money despite its valuable LHR assets. It was pretty much a vanity project for SRB.

Delta is trying to leverage VS fleet and slot holdings to maximize return, even if that means flying to "un-hip" but profitable destinations like DTW and ATL. The ME3 and Chinese carriers have pretty much destroyed VS's prospects in Asia so why throw good money after bad. There is only so much a point-to-point carrier like VS can do...


There are plenty of places for Virgin Atlantic to fly to not in the sphere of he ME3 or the China 3. More African cities like Accra, Ghana or South America. SAO Paulo would live Virgin.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:32 am

The lack of suitable short haul connections on the VS side have always made things tricky for DL at LHR.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:35 am

jfk777 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Delta's use of Virgin have made Virgin do some "funny things." DL has turned Virgins's Asian network into a shadow of its former self. Virgin Atlantic first Asian city was Tokyo, they stopped flying to Narita about 3 years ago. Virgins's only two remaining Asian cities are Shanghai and Hong Kong. Who knows when they will ditch those.

VA is now flying to Detroit and Atlanta, two Delta hubs, bringing the Virgin product to cities which probably wouldn't have it otherwise. Is Virgin's mission to be a UK airline for Delta's focus or to serve the UK market to important destinations ? Virgin does fly to India, South Africa, Nigeria and Dubai which except for India are of little value to DL via Virgin.( DL does fly to Johannesburg from ATL). Virgin Atlantic needs to focus on its primary mission to serve the destinations the British wants to fly to including the Pacific region of the world, Tokyo is severely missing from Virgin's route system.

Virgin established itself in the USA with its unique brand in coastal cities east and west, That is its market here. Virgin discovered in Chicago flying to fortress hubs didn't work very well. Delta flights to London from ATL and DTW should be on Delta planes not Virgin's. The Virgin flights to Delta's hubs are flights which could go to a stronger Virgin destinations, Delta shouldn't need Virgin's help in ATL. Virgin's 787 need to fly to Singapore and Haneda, flying to Atlanta is just boring.


The old British-centred version of VS did not make any money despite its valuable LHR assets. It was pretty much a vanity project for SRB.

Delta is trying to leverage VS fleet and slot holdings to maximize return, even if that means flying to "un-hip" but profitable destinations like DTW and ATL. The ME3 and Chinese carriers have pretty much destroyed VS's prospects in Asia so why throw good money after bad. There is only so much a point-to-point carrier like VS can do...


There are plenty of places for Virgin Atlantic to fly to not in the sphere of he ME3 or the China 3. More African cities like Accra, Ghana or South America. SAO Paulo would live Virgin.


Assuming you meant "love," of course those cities would love Virgin Atlantic, but can they do it profitably? Perhaps, but flying to the US looks to be more profitable for Virgin. Maybe just US flying isn't sexy, but what you are suggesting is what they tried, and didn't work.
 
Brickell305
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:49 am

I don't see RDU-LHR making any sense for Delta. AA has been on the route for years and has built up a loyal following plus has the connections at the LHR end thanks to BA. DL flows European connections over CDG. They'd be almost entirely O&D on LHR while AA would be O&D plus connections. Also, keep in mind that whatever market there is from the London point of sale would be more inclined to use AA due to the BA/AA alliance. I don't see how DL competes with that.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:54 am

jfk777 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Delta's use of Virgin have made Virgin do some "funny things." DL has turned Virgins's Asian network into a shadow of its former self. Virgin Atlantic first Asian city was Tokyo, they stopped flying to Narita about 3 years ago. Virgins's only two remaining Asian cities are Shanghai and Hong Kong. Who knows when they will ditch those.

VA is now flying to Detroit and Atlanta, two Delta hubs, bringing the Virgin product to cities which probably wouldn't have it otherwise. Is Virgin's mission to be a UK airline for Delta's focus or to serve the UK market to important destinations ? Virgin does fly to India, South Africa, Nigeria and Dubai which except for India are of little value to DL via Virgin.( DL does fly to Johannesburg from ATL). Virgin Atlantic needs to focus on its primary mission to serve the destinations the British wants to fly to including the Pacific region of the world, Tokyo is severely missing from Virgin's route system.

Virgin established itself in the USA with its unique brand in coastal cities east and west, That is its market here. Virgin discovered in Chicago flying to fortress hubs didn't work very well. Delta flights to London from ATL and DTW should be on Delta planes not Virgin's. The Virgin flights to Delta's hubs are flights which could go to a stronger Virgin destinations, Delta shouldn't need Virgin's help in ATL. Virgin's 787 need to fly to Singapore and Haneda, flying to Atlanta is just boring.


The old British-centred version of VS did not make any money despite its valuable LHR assets. It was pretty much a vanity project for SRB.

Delta is trying to leverage VS fleet and slot holdings to maximize return, even if that means flying to "un-hip" but profitable destinations like DTW and ATL. The ME3 and Chinese carriers have pretty much destroyed VS's prospects in Asia so why throw good money after bad. There is only so much a point-to-point carrier like VS can do...


There are plenty of places for Virgin Atlantic to fly to not in the sphere of he ME3 or the China 3. More African cities like Accra, Ghana or South America. SAO Paulo would live Virgin.


VS has tried ACC before and lost their shirt.
GRU has slot issues and lots of competition to Europe and two other carriers flying to LHR.
You are assuming alot when you say these markets would love VS. VS' brand is really just alot of marketing fluff. There is nothing particularly special or luxurious about them. Their hard and soft product is inferior to many major carriers including the US3 IMHO.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:01 am

clrd4t8koff wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Delta's use of Virgin have made Virgin do some "funny things." DL has turned Virgins's Asian network into a shadow of its former self. Virgin Atlantic first Asian city was Tokyo, they stopped flying to Narita about 3 years ago. Virgins's only two remaining Asian cities are Shanghai and Hong Kong. Who knows when they will ditch those.

VA is now flying to Detroit and Atlanta, two Delta hubs, bringing the Virgin product to cities which probably wouldn't have it otherwise. Is Virgin's mission to be a UK airline for Delta's focus or to serve the UK market to important destinations ? Virgin does fly to India, South Africa, Nigeria and Dubai which except for India are of little value to DL via Virgin.( DL does fly to Johannesburg from ATL). Virgin Atlantic needs to focus on its primary mission to serve the destinations the British wants to fly to including the Pacific region of the world, Tokyo is severely missing from Virgin's route system.

Virgin established itself in the USA with its unique brand in coastal cities east and west, That is its market here. Virgin discovered in Chicago flying to fortress hubs didn't work very well. Delta flights to London from ATL and DTW should be on Delta planes not Virgin's. The Virgin flights to Delta's hubs are flights which could go to a stronger Virgin destinations, Delta shouldn't need Virgin's help in ATL. Virgin's 787 need to fly to Singapore and Haneda, flying to Atlanta is just boring.


VA does not fly to DTW and neither does VS.
They both never will anyhow. Too much capacity on LHR and SYD makes 0 sense.
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AAIRLINERS
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:09 am

cvgComair wrote:
It looks like the last DL PHL-LHR flight will depart on March 23, 2018 and will return to PHL the following day. Currently there is not a bookable departure for the 757 out of PHL, so that does not give any hints about what the LHR slots could be used for. Loads have been awful on PHL-LHR, with many months below 50%, I am sure DL cannot wait to shift the slots elsewhere.

I find it interesting that Delta bought 5 slots to LHR, which it will receive on October 30, 2017 and now will have 7 more on March 24, 2017. So far, they have not announced any of their plans for these slots. The three options would be leasing/selling them, upping frequency on existing routes, or possibly adding new routes. What seems the most likely and what cities specifically seem the most likely?

For the 5x/week slots, DL has 5 morning arrivals on Sun/Tue/Wed/Thurs/Sat, which allows for Mon/Tue/Wed/Fri/Sat departures from a US station. The PHL slots give daily evening US arrivals for daily early morning arrivals into LHR.



For the US3 there are some things worth fighting for. PHL is not even close to being one of them. Delta has plenty of opportunities to use those slots elsewhere which aren't someone else's turf. Not collusion, just smart business.
 
phluser
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:35 am

phlwok wrote:
commavia wrote:
atl100million wrote:
Given that there is relatively little Skyteam international presence at PHL, it is certain that DL will add domestic flights and may justify adding further international flights from PHL to offset pulling down PHL-LHR.


That is far from "certain." At this point, the only major Delta stations not served from PHL are BOS, LAX, SEA and, internationally, AMS - the ones that may make the most economic sense are actually the west coast routes that have absolutely nothing to do with LHR. BOS is a big market but it's also well-served with AA and JetBlue; LAX is a big market and it has minimal competition other than AA; SEA is a smaller and far more seasonal market; and I question if AMS needs any more capacity than the existing AA 757. So we'll see.


Interestingly, DL has served PHL-LAX recently and dropped it (started 2011, maybe dropped in 2015 or so?), has served PHL-BOS in the past, and NW used to do PHL-AMS with the DC-10-30 but dropped it when US added the 762 on the route maybe 18 years ago. I would think it probably most likely they'd restart LAX, but there is now more competition on the route, and the time to start SEA might have been before AS started serving PHL several years back. AMS might make sense. US (AA) has run most everyone else off of PHL-BOS in recent decades, though B6 on the route is likely to stay.


DL ended PHL-LAX closer to when VX started it, which was circa 2012 not 2015 and there was more competition at that point, with VX having more frequency and day service westbound.

Anyways, I don't see how DL ending PHL-LHR has anything to do with the LAX-PHL likelihood, or SEA-PHL or BOS-PHL. For the latter, DL would need to be atleast 3-4x daily. If DL moves the PHLLHR slot to BOS-LHR, which seems plausible, then it could justify PHL-BOS with that feeding some BOS-LHR and other Europe service and that might be the only relation, but it still might not be market DL wants to enter.
 
ASQ400
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:06 pm

klm617 wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
klm617 wrote:
I hope this means they can go back to double daily from Detroit


They're already double daily on DTW-LHR 3 days a week for 10 weekly flights. I think any additional LHR flights would go to ATL.


DTW-LHR is an underserved market even the WCAA lists it as an initiative to bring more capacity into the market. DTW-LON was two daily for decades until Delta took it over and ever since it has been 10 or less. It was only last summer with VS that it was double daily through the entire summer. Hopefully we can get back to double daily as it has been since the late 50's up until the DL take over of NW

Just because WCAA says it wants more flights, doesn't mean those flights are warranted. DTW-LHR has crappy loads that don't justify more frequencies.
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caoimhin
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:44 am

F27500 wrote:
Stupid route for Delta. They have -nothing- at either end of this route (for connections) .. complete waste of a plane and slot.

Besides ... PHL-LHR in a cramped, crappy old 757 up against the 777s, 787s and A330s of their competitors ... byeee , Delta!


While I've never flown this on DL's 757, I fly LHR-PHL a few times per month with BA/AA. BA have been operating a 744 recently, which is a delight (if a bit tired on the interior). Prior to March, I often got a 789. It was absolutely magnificent in Y+. The perfect experience for that route.

Occasionally I would get an AA 757. Bloody nightmare.
 
anstar
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:31 am

usflyer msp wrote:

The old British-centred version of VS did not make any money despite its valuable LHR assets. It was pretty much a vanity project for SRB.

Delta is trying to leverage VS fleet and slot holdings to maximize return, even if that means flying to "un-hip" but profitable destinations like DTW and ATL. The ME3 and Chinese carriers have pretty much destroyed VS's prospects in Asia so why throw good money after bad. There is only so much a point-to-point carrier like VS can do...


And things don't seem to be going that well at VS. They have announced internally that they expect a loss in the range of 60-90 million pounds this year. Not great considering the price of oil etc. But I believe Norwegian have pretty much eatne their lunch at LGW and the MAN routes this year havent been as profitable as expected.
 
acentauri
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:16 am

caoimhin wrote:
F27500 wrote:
..............................Occasionally I would get an AA 757. Bloody nightmare.

AA (US) PHL-LHR has never been scheduled with a 757.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:50 am

acentauri wrote:
caoimhin wrote:
F27500 wrote:
..............................Occasionally I would get an AA 757. Bloody nightmare.

AA (US) PHL-LHR has never been scheduled with a 757.


Back when US/AA were experimenting with a daytime PHL-LHR flight, it was operated by a L-US 757. There was an 8AM LHR-PHL flight that used the 757 that RONed at LHR...
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:58 am

anstar wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:

The old British-centred version of VS did not make any money despite its valuable LHR assets. It was pretty much a vanity project for SRB.

Delta is trying to leverage VS fleet and slot holdings to maximize return, even if that means flying to "un-hip" but profitable destinations like DTW and ATL. The ME3 and Chinese carriers have pretty much destroyed VS's prospects in Asia so why throw good money after bad. There is only so much a point-to-point carrier like VS can do...


And things don't seem to be going that well at VS. They have announced internally that they expect a loss in the range of 60-90 million pounds this year. Not great considering the price of oil etc. But I believe Norwegian have pretty much eatne their lunch at LGW and the MAN routes this year havent been as profitable as expected.


Other than Orlando, on what routes do Virgin and Norwegian compete from LGW? I don't think you can characterize anything as Norwegian eating their lunch.
 
anstar
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:44 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Other than Orlando, on what routes do Virgin and Norwegian compete from LGW? I don't think you can characterize anything as Norwegian eating their lunch.


Well Norwegian fly to Boston, Los Angeles, FLL (Miami area), San Fran (OAK) from LGW.. all of those cover VS destinations from LHR.

Regardless, they must be making some impact on VS for to be facing a loss as big as they are predicting this year. It cant just be "Brexit"
 
LHRFlyer
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:45 pm

Norwegian is the new young upstart in London.

Regardless of its financials, it has been well received by passengers and it shows how from a marketing perspective a couple of points of differentiation are what matters. I hear "new planes and WiFi" a lot.
 
seatback
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:26 pm

kavok wrote:
The PHL market is 2x or 3x bigger than IND, BNA, etc. If DL cannot make the larger PHL-LHR market work, why do people think midsize cities like IND, BNA, etc. could work? The common denominator between all is the lack of DL connections on the US side.

That being said, DL could use these slots to add more frequencies at their hubs, as many of their hubs could probably absorb the market for more LHR service.


Because AA and BA dominate the market. If you're a Philadelphia frequent flyer, chances are you fly American, not Delta. AA would experience similar results if they tried ATL-CDG. Additionally, if there are any new cities that Delta tries to LHR, I'd imagine it will come from large focus cities like PDX, CVG, and RDU.
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:34 pm

anstar wrote:
San Fran


No such place.
 
tjerome
Posts: 349
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:39 am

globalcabotage wrote:
Surprised it lasted this long. At least they gave PHL a shot, they dropped winter seasonal ORD before it started (not sure how they keep ORD-CDG in winter).


DL operates ORD-CDG in the winter in place of AF.
 
fsafsx
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:51 am

TheGeordielad wrote:
fsafsx wrote:
Why not add London to Columbus?

Possibly with the B752.
It would be a better city than BNA or IND for Delta.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:43 pm

fsafsx wrote:
TheGeordielad wrote:
fsafsx wrote:
Why not add London to Columbus?

Possibly with the B752.
It would be a better city than BNA or IND for Delta.


Why do you say that?
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anstar
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:24 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
anstar wrote:
San Fran


No such place.


Eh? Are you being pedantic and I should type fully San Francisco? Or would you prefer the San Francisco area? Regardless... VS have some hot competition from Norwegian into "that" market whatever you want to call it.
 
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intotheair
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:47 pm

anstar wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
anstar wrote:
San Fran


No such place.


Eh? Are you being pedantic and I should type fully San Francisco? Or would you prefer the San Francisco area? Regardless... VS have some hot competition from Norwegian into "that" market whatever you want to call it.


Nobody really calls it "San Fran" — either San Francisco or SF for short, or "the city" though I would never expect anyone outside of there to call it that. That's nails on a chalkboard to people who live there or have lived there. Same thing with "Cali," unless if you're talking about the city in southwest Colombia.
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ERJ170
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:32 pm

I'm pretty sure boatloads of people call in San Fran... I promise you this
Aiming High and going far..
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:21 pm

intotheair wrote:
anstar wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:

No such place.


Eh? Are you being pedantic and I should type fully San Francisco? Or would you prefer the San Francisco area? Regardless... VS have some hot competition from Norwegian into "that" market whatever you want to call it.


Nobody really calls it "San Fran" — either San Francisco or SF for short, or "the city" though I would never expect anyone outside of there to call it that. That's nails on a chalkboard to people who live there or have lived there. Same thing with "Cali," unless if you're talking about the city in southwest Colombia.


Agree 100%. I hate " Frisco" even more. Frisco is in Texas. There is no such place in California. It's San Francisco.
 
fsafsx
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:04 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
fsafsx wrote:
TheGeordielad wrote:
Possibly with the B752.
It would be a better city than BNA or IND for Delta.


Why do you say that?
I think CMH is in a better position with Delta than BNA or IND is and me thinks the biggest threat to CMH is CVG.
 
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Cvgspotter15
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:15 pm

fsafsx wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
fsafsx wrote:
It would be a better city than BNA or IND for Delta.


Why do you say that?
I think CMH is in a better position with Delta than BNA or IND is and me thinks the biggest threat to CMH is CVG.


CVG will 100% get the delta flight before IND BNA and CMH. However BA is a different story.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Delta Ending PHL-LHR on March 23, 2018

Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:12 pm

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
fsafsx wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

Why do you say that?
I think CMH is in a better position with Delta than BNA or IND is and me thinks the biggest threat to CMH is CVG.


CVG will 100% get the delta flight before IND BNA and CMH. However BA is a different story.


100% agree with CVG spotter, CVG is a hub for DL so that flight would/could actually be feasible. With regards to CMH, CMH is not in a better position with Delta than BNA or IND, CMH has less DL non-stops than BNA and IND and IND used to be a focus city for DL/NW, can you please elaborate...
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