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AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:22 am

AirAsiaX flight D7237 operating this morning's PER-KUL flight returned to PER after the left engine was shut down. There were 367 passengers onboard.

Water Police said marine services were deployed north of Perth for a possible water landing.

The aircraft landed safely in PER around 10am local time.

AirAsia X flight D7237 took off just before 7:00am (AWST) today, bound for Kuala Lumpur, but experienced a "technical issue" one-and-a-half hours into the trip.
The Airbus 330 landed back in Perth about 10:00am, with emergency services on site as a precaution.
Water Police said marine emergency services north of Perth were put on standby to prepare for a possible water landing.

Passengers say the captain announced one of the engines had seized, plane started shaking violently mid-air


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-25/a ... ue/8649990

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-up ... 09970fe69e

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western ... bdf59bc632
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jrfspa320
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:18 am

That shaking looks intense, im guessing once the engine was shut down it calmed down.
Exmouth would have been closer, interesting they didnt choose the closest divert after an engine failure
 
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:52 am

Can someone tell me what sort of engines on Air AsiaX 330's.
If they are RR T700 it might raise a few questions

Ruscoe
 
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:59 am

Ruscoe wrote:
Can someone tell me what sort of engines on Air AsiaX 330's.
If they are RR T700 it might raise a few questions

Ruscoe
They are RR Trent 700s. What questions does that raise?
 
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:00 am

Ruscoe wrote:
Can someone tell me what sort of engines on Air AsiaX 330's.
If they are RR T700 it might raise a few questions

Ruscoe


All of AirAsia X's A330s have Trent 700s.
 
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:15 am

TheF15Ace wrote:
Ruscoe wrote:
Can someone tell me what sort of engines on Air AsiaX 330's.
If they are RR T700 it might raise a few questions

Ruscoe


All of AirAsia X's A330s have Trent 700s.

Not all, but this one did.
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:20 am

flee wrote:
Ruscoe wrote:
Can someone tell me what sort of engines on Air AsiaX 330's.
If they are RR T700 it might raise a few questions

Ruscoe
They are RR Trent 700s. What questions does that raise?


Ruscoe is probably referring the recent MU736 incident along with the EgyptAir one as well

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1365487&start=50
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:30 am

Single N1 fan blade failure around 20% from hub on increase of thrust for a step climb having already been in cruise for a while.
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:43 am

a320fan wrote:
TheF15Ace wrote:
Ruscoe wrote:
Can someone tell me what sort of engines on Air AsiaX 330's.
If they are RR T700 it might raise a few questions

Ruscoe


All of AirAsia X's A330s have Trent 700s.

Not all, but this one did.

All A330s that are operated by AirAsia group use Trent 700.
 
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:48 am

afterburner wrote:
a320fan wrote:
TheF15Ace wrote:
All of AirAsia X's A330s have Trent 700s.

Not all, but this one did.

All A330s that are operated by AirAsia group use Trent 700.

That is correct - all 30 of Airasia X's A330s are fitted with the RR engines.

Their first aircraft, registration 9M-XAA, had GE engines but this is no longer in the fleet.
 
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:31 pm

Makes a change from turbulance.
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:38 pm

flee wrote:
afterburner wrote:
a320fan wrote:
Not all, but this one did.

All A330s that are operated by AirAsia group use Trent 700.

That is correct - all 30 of Airasia X's A330s are fitted with the RR engines.

Their first aircraft, registration 9M-XAA, had GE engines but this is no longer in the fleet.

Thanks for the correction. I knew I had seen Air Asia A330s with GE engines, just didn't realise it was a one off.
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:41 pm

jrfspa320 wrote:
That shaking looks intense, im guessing once the engine was shut down it calmed down.
Exmouth would have been closer, interesting they didnt choose the closest divert after an engine failure


According to avherald they were 200NM SSW of LEA when the incident happened

http://avherald.com/h?article=4aac9f14&opt=0
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:50 pm

Can someone clarify this to me?

This is my understanding of what happened: a rotating component failed ( turbine blade?) causing an imbalance in the rotating motion, hence the the shaking that continued till landing ... What I don't understand, if the engine is shut off, which is what I assume happened, shouldn't the rotation of the engine stop, and with it the cause of the shaking? Or did rotation continued due to the wind?
 
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:41 pm

sadiqutp wrote:
Can someone clarify this to me?

This is my understanding of what happened: a rotating component failed ( turbine blade?) causing an imbalance in the rotating motion, hence the the shaking that continued till landing ... What I don't understand, if the engine is shut off, which is what I assume happened, shouldn't the rotation of the engine stop, and with it the cause of the shaking? Or did rotation continued due to the wind?


Airliners engines do not have rotor brakes so they will windmill in the airstream. At cruise speed they do so at a pretty significant velocity.
 
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:24 pm

I wonder if the additional stress this plane suffered had any effect on the frame.
 
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:44 pm

jrfspa320 wrote:
That shaking looks intense, im guessing once the engine was shut down it calmed down.
Exmouth would have been closer, interesting they didnt choose the closest divert after an engine failure


They can land at Learmonth airport but it's got no technical support. Unless they're having uncontrollable engine fire, I don't see LEA being a suitable airfield. Not forgetting the landing weight since they got 359 persons on board.
 
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:23 pm

sadiqutp wrote:
Can someone clarify this to me?

This is my understanding of what happened: a rotating component failed ( turbine blade?) causing an imbalance in the rotating motion, hence the the shaking that continued till landing ... What I don't understand, if the engine is shut off, which is what I assume happened, shouldn't the rotation of the engine stop, and with it the cause of the shaking? Or did rotation continued due to the wind?


Did you see Zeke's crystal-clear explanation above of what happened and when?

"Single N1 fan blade failure around 20% from hub on increase of thrust for a step climb having already been in cruise for a while."

Zeke is in a position to know this stuff.
 
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:53 pm

They say captain asked passengers to pray twice, they are some vids around, looks heavy shaking!
 
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:05 pm

wjcandee wrote:
sadiqutp wrote:
What I don't understand, if the engine is shut off, which is what I assume happened, shouldn't the rotation of the engine stop, and with it the cause of the shaking? Or did rotation continued due to the wind?


Did you see Zeke's crystal-clear explanation above of what happened and when?

"Single N1 fan blade failure around 20% from hub on increase of thrust for a step climb having already been in cruise for a while."


The guy was just asking why the broken fan kept spinning after being shut down. It's a fair question. It's also not addressed by Zeke at all.
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:46 pm

Engines are free spool meaning they are free to rotate either by internally generated forces or by wind. In this case the wind is due to the forward motion of the aircraft.

You will often see engines spinning at the gate when the are shutdown just due to the wind.

Learmonth is a mainly empty Air Force base with just a skeleton caretaker staff. They were probably overweight at the time this happened and the time to transit to Perth would make for a lighter aircraft and give the crew time to run their performance numbers for landing.

This is an entirely sensible decision, after they shut an engine down it takes the best part of 30 minutes to drift down to the engine out altitude (around 20,000 ft) by that time you would be top of descent for Perth.
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:15 pm

zeke wrote:
after they shut an engine down it takes the best part of 30 minutes to drift down to the engine out altitude (around 20,000 ft) by that time you would be top of descent for Perth.


Potentially dumb question, but why would you "drift down" in an engine out scenario? A standard descent takes about 30 minutes from cruise to landing, much less to 20,000 feet. I would think you'd want to get down to the engine out altitude as quickly as possible.
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:21 pm

Driftdown is the normal procedure you would be back at "green dot" speed with MCT on the other engine.

There is no requirement to get down to engine out level asap.
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:59 am

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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:08 am

Glad that everyone is safe and sound! Great job to the pilots and crews! I wonder couls AirAsia X hugh utilisation rate for their aircraft contribute to such in-flight fan blade separation? Currently their average utilisation rate is between 16.5-18 hours.

Rolls Royce seems to be unable to catch a breath recently. Hopefully investigation can be concluded swiftly to rectify the root cause since Rolls Royce has majority market share in A330 engines.

Also, hopefully AirAsia recovers soon...Everyone is jumping on them for two recent PR 'blunder' in a week.
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:10 am

zeke wrote:
Driftdown is the normal procedure you would be back at "green dot" speed with MCT on the other engine.

There is no requirement to get down to engine out level asap.

Thank you Zeke, always good to learn from you.
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:34 am

Asturias wrote:
The guy was just asking why the broken fan kept spinning after being shut down. It's a fair question. It's also not addressed by Zeke at all.


Actually, his question included the following: "This is my understanding of what happened: a rotating component failed ( turbine blade?) causing an imbalance in the rotating motion..."

He said "(turbine blade?)", which suggested to me that he hadn't seen Zeke's statement of what happened.
 
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:14 am

Astronage wrote:
....


zeke wrote:
....


Thank you, everything is clear know :)
 
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:15 am

One thing needs to be mentioned.
Airbus has done a good job to design an Aircraft that withstand this heavy shaking for such a long time and Rolls as well for the engine. All in-line with the certification regulations for the "Flight Home" case after (Fan) blade failure. This is a critical design point for the engine and aircraft structure to get certified. The structural components of the engine and aircraft needs to be designed for this worst case. The flying-home is worse than the FBO event itself and brings a lot of weight into the engine and aircraft.
 
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:34 am

zeke wrote:
Driftdown is the normal procedure you would be back at "green dot" speed with MCT on the other engine.

There is no requirement to get down to engine out level asap.


But what I'm asking is why this is? What's the rationale behind drifting down rather than getting to engine out altitude, leveling off and then figuring out your next steps from there? I understand that there's no requirement to do so, I'm just wondering why it's considered better to slowly drift down than to do a standard descent. From a layperson's perspective, it seems like with an engine out you'd want to be at the altitude for engine out operations as quickly as practical.
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:41 am

Basically if you drift down you use more distance, time, and fuel. You will actually level off higher and will have greater range on one engine with the fuel remaining. You are using the potential energy of the descent more efficiently than an immediate descent.
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:06 am

juliuswong wrote:
Glad that everyone is safe and sound! Great job to the pilots and crews! I wonder couls AirAsia X hugh utilisation rate for their aircraft contribute to such in-flight fan blade separation? Currently their average utilisation rate is between 16.5-18 hours.

Rolls Royce seems to be unable to catch a breath recently. Hopefully investigation can be concluded swiftly to rectify the root cause since Rolls Royce has majority market share in A330 engines.

Also, hopefully AirAsia recovers soon...Everyone is jumping on them for two recent PR 'blunder' in a week.


= What was the other PR 'blunder'?

Saludos,
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:02 am

Pictures of the fractured blade root

Image

Image

http://avherald.com/h?article=4aac9f14&opt=0
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Theseus
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:44 am

zeke wrote:
Engines are free spool meaning they are free to rotate either by internally generated forces or by wind. In this case the wind is due to the forward motion of the aircraft.


Interesting, I had not thought of the possibility of such a situation where a damaged engine causes vibration even after shutdown, due to free spool.
This raises a few questions to me:
- can such a situation be structurally dangerous ? (if the damage makes the imbalance worse...)
- are there specific procedures to limit the effect of vibration ? (like trying to fly at slower speed, to mitigate the effect)
 
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:30 am

Theseus wrote:
Interesting, I had not thought of the possibility of such a situation where a damaged engine causes vibration even after shutdown, due to free spool.
This raises a few questions to me:
- can such a situation be structurally dangerous ? (if the damage makes the imbalance worse...)
- are there specific procedures to limit the effect of vibration ? (like trying to fly at slower speed, to mitigate the effect)


I'd imagine if the shaking got worse to the point it might cause structural issues, the pins holding the engine to the pylon would have long since given way (as they are designed to shear at certain forces)

Just my thought on that.
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:53 am

As dramatic as it may appear, this condition is referred to as "Windmilling", and all aircraft systems are explicitly designed and tested to withstand the good shaking it produces. This goes down all the way to electronic modules fitted in the cabin (Iwork in this field).
It is one of the reasons why there is such a lot of space around individual components.
 
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:55 am

Diffenitely a scary experience & praise the crew for getting the aircraft safely back to PER. Regarding the shaking was this due to the crew not being able to shutdown the engine?

EK413
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garpd
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:56 am

I'd say more likely it was windmilling after being shut down.
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:56 pm

abrelosojos wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
Glad that everyone is safe and sound! Great job to the pilots and crews! I wonder couls AirAsia X hugh utilisation rate for their aircraft contribute to such in-flight fan blade separation? Currently their average utilisation rate is between 16.5-18 hours.

Rolls Royce seems to be unable to catch a breath recently. Hopefully investigation can be concluded swiftly to rectify the root cause since Rolls Royce has majority market share in A330 engines.

Also, hopefully AirAsia recovers soon...Everyone is jumping on them for two recent PR 'blunder' in a week.


= What was the other PR 'blunder'?

Saludos,
Alex

More of operational blunder.....A PRC lady was wrongly issued a boarding pass for flying date 4th July 2017 few days ago. Nobody noticed the mistake until the actual passengers turned up onboard. The PRC lady has seated by then. She refused to give up her seat despite instructed by cabin crew and other passengers were furious at her holding the flight. In the end, police was called and she was forced "not United way" to disembark, still blaming ground crew for issuing her boarding pass. There was a video of the incident ciruclating on line, I couldn't get it anymore.
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JAAlbert
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:33 pm

Was there ever a realistic probability with this sort of engine failure that the plane would end up in the water short of the runway?
 
micschacht
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:06 pm

The whole aircraft and certainly the engine itself will be designed for this worst-case "Flying Home" (wind milling) after "Fan Blade Off".
That means all the pins and bolts and all structure is usually designed for thousands of cycles, thousands of flight hours but in this special event the target is just to fly safely home during the engine is wind milling, rotating with a big imbalance the whole time. It is a question of fatigue life. To summarize, the engine normally survives thousands of hours has just to survive this 180 min (for bizjets but for commercial quite similar). Therefore a very intensive detailed inspection of the whole aircraft will follow now.
 
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:30 pm

Yes there is a probability of hazardous or catastrophic events for the aircraft. The probability comes from statistical data calculations based on all the noted events already happened in the aviation. Remember the Bell shape curve. It is to complex to pack this in a short statement but the results you will find reflected in the certification rules and maintenance intervals. You will never get an engine or aircraft certified without showing compliance to these rules.
 
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:36 pm

Theseus wrote:
zeke wrote:
This raises a few questions to me:
- can such a situation be structurally dangerous ? (if the damage makes the imbalance worse...)
- are there specific procedures to limit the effect of vibration ? (like trying to fly at slower speed, to mitigate the effect)


1 - I dont think so if there is no thrust being produced
2- the procedures revolve around when you have the engine running, it is only common sens that would say slowing down will reduce the rate it spins at. We actually have procedures to start (relight) the engine just using the forward speed to windmill the engines.
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TC957
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:24 pm

Seems RR in Derby will be busy in looking at this engine and the one on the MU A330 from SYD. Presume they'll have them shipped back to base for detailed examination.
 
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:32 pm

JAAlbert wrote:
Was there ever a realistic probability with this sort of engine failure that the plane would end up in the water short of the runway?


No!

An airplane can fly on one engine until all the gas is gone.
 
Theseus
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:22 pm

zeke, garpd and others, thanks a lot for the explanation!
 
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:53 am

jrfspa320 wrote:
That shaking looks intense, im guessing once the engine was shut down it calmed down.
Exmouth would have been closer, interesting they didnt choose the closest divert after an engine failure


I heard that the pilots felt that the aircraft was stable enough to make it back to Perth. Learmonth only has limited infrastructure, so to land there would also have created problems for passengers. In the end the call to go to Perth seemingly was a good call.
 
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:44 am

Not just the engine got damaged:

AirAsia X has released few details of the incident which is understood to involve the failure of a fan blade in the No.1 engine.

It destroyed hydraulic components and an oil pump before being ingested by the engine.


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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:47 am

fiscal wrote:
jrfspa320 wrote:
That shaking looks intense, im guessing once the engine was shut down it calmed down.
Exmouth would have been closer, interesting they didnt choose the closest divert after an engine failure


I heard that the pilots felt that the aircraft was stable enough to make it back to Perth. Learmonth only has limited infrastructure, so to land there would also have created problems for passengers. In the end the call to go to Perth seemingly was a good call.


Personally if I'd be on board, I would have taken the logistical problems of being stuck in Learmonth for a few hours, instead of having the crap shaken out of me for the 2 hours back to Perth.

Sure it made it back in one piece and highly likely could've kept flying much longer, but lets be honest, this was purely an operational decision made here. It was far more convenient to have the aircraft in Perth than Learmonth and at the end of the day, to the operator that's what was more desirable. I would hope the investigation asks serious question as to why they didn't land in Learmonth over the convenience of Perth.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: AirAsia X D7237 PER-KUL returns to PER (A333 9M-XXE) after engine problems

Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:23 am

jupiter2 wrote:
fiscal wrote:
jrfspa320 wrote:
That shaking looks intense, im guessing once the engine was shut down it calmed down.
Exmouth would have been closer, interesting they didnt choose the closest divert after an engine failure


I heard that the pilots felt that the aircraft was stable enough to make it back to Perth. Learmonth only has limited infrastructure, so to land there would also have created problems for passengers. In the end the call to go to Perth seemingly was a good call.


Personally if I'd be on board, I would have taken the logistical problems of being stuck in Learmonth for a few hours, instead of having the crap shaken out of me for the 2 hours back to Perth.

Sure it made it back in one piece and highly likely could've kept flying much longer, but lets be honest, this was purely an operational decision made here. It was far more convenient to have the aircraft in Perth than Learmonth and at the end of the day, to the operator that's what was more desirable. I would hope the investigation asks serious question as to why they didn't land in Learmonth over the convenience of Perth.


Is the plane still above maximum landing weight if they land at Learmonth? If it is then an overweight landing would add more risk now would it?
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