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ghYHZ
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Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:46 am

Air Canada is making some changes for winter 2017-18 to the YYT (St. John’s Newfoundland) – London Heathrow route that currently see a daily transatlantic A319.

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... ic-canada/

Service usually reduces to 3 weekly in the off-season but for winter 2017-18 it’s going twice weekly with the 767-300 that normally operates non-stop between YHZ (Halifax) and Heathrow ….now stopping in YYT on two days. (the other days it remains a non-stop YHZ-LHR service)

This is the way the route operated until 2006 when Air Canada introduced the transatlantic A319 and now returns a scheduled widebody to YYT for the first time in about a dozen years

And I wonder what the plans are beyond winter 2017-18…even for the ‘767 YHZ-LHR service?

>>>

In summer, besides the daily A319 across the pond…..St. John’s has a daily Westjet 737-700 to Gatwick and also a 737-700 to Dublin. Not bad for a city of 200,000 !!
 
Boeing744
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:08 am

Interesting... I wonder where/if they are redeploying the ETOPS A319s...
 
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AC_B777
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:36 am

We found this out last week at work, and I for one, think it makes sense. The pax loads on both AC and WS have been less than stellar in the last year. Partially because the Newfoundland economy has tanked, partially because of terrorism concerns in Europe and partially because the market is flooded from a smaller population based city.
There's no doubt that AC's pax numbers have suffered since WS introduced their YYT-LGW flights last year, however, even this year, they aren't doing as well as before. Many people are coming in on WS from other cities and then waiting around all day to leave that night to LGW or DUB. To my knowledge, the actual amount of people using YYT as a point of origin has been relatively low this year.
I think AC is making a good decision by going back to the 763 as maintaining two specialty A319's is starting to get expensive not to mention, costing more money to keep an expensive slot in LHR open for a 319 without full loads.
The A319 did and still does do the job well, however, since we lost the 763 a few years back, we also lost cargo capacity. That's where the money was made. AC didn't need to carry one pax on the 767 on the YHZ-YYT-LHR route and it still made money from a heavy load of cargo from both stations. I remember a high ranking AC exec visiting YYT in the early 2000's and he told us that the YHZ-YYT-LHR was one of the biggest money making routes AC had at the time.
The 763 will bring back much needed cargo uplift from YYT, and I think this is why AC is doing this. Yes, there will always be passengers who will fly this route, but there will be more revenue from what's in the cargo hold.
As stated by the OP, the route is going to be flown 2 days a weeks in the winter. As for the summer, I'm not sure. My guess is that the route will be flown 4-5 days per week.
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bmacleod
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:24 pm

So the nonstop YHZ-LHR is gone?
Last edited by bmacleod on Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Airontario
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:31 pm

bmacleod wrote:
So big question is...Can AC fill a 763 on YYT-LHR?


But they don't need to. They need to fill it (or at least get a decent load) from YHZ and YYT combined.
 
bmacleod
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:31 pm

Airontario wrote:
bmacleod wrote:
So big question is...Can AC fill a 763 on YYT-LHR?


But they don't need to. They need to fill it (or at least get a decent load) from YHZ and YYT combined.



I just realized that so I edited to my question is no longer non-stop on YHZ-LHR?
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
Airontario
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:34 pm

bmacleod wrote:
Airontario wrote:
bmacleod wrote:
So big question is...Can AC fill a 763 on YYT-LHR?


But they don't need to. They need to fill it (or at least get a decent load) from YHZ and YYT combined.



I just realized that so I edited to my question is no longer non-stop on YHZ-LHR?


It looks like 2 of the 4 YHZ-LHR per week will now stop in YYT. The other 2 I assume are non-stop.
 
skipness1E
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:45 pm

YHZ-YYT-LHR was profitable mainly because the fares charged were astronomical..... The 763s are going soon, so it's gonna be Rouge or a Toronto connection for AC's YYT market I reckon. Can't see a 788 doing that double drop in 2017. Are the A319s back for the summer?
 
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longhauler
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:49 pm

This may have something to do with the latest fleet plan Air Canada publicly announced. It appears the A319s will be the first to leave the fleet as the 737s arrive. (Not the A320s as orginally predicted).

ghYHZ wrote:
And I wonder what the plans are beyond winter 2017-18…even for the ‘767 YHZ-LHR service?


My guess would be 737s on both YHZ and YYT to LHR.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
bmacleod
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:55 pm

longhauler wrote:
This may have something to do with the latest fleet plan Air Canada publicly announced. It appears the A319s will be the first to leave the fleet as the 737s arrive. (Not the A320s as orginally predicted).

ghYHZ wrote:
And I wonder what the plans are beyond winter 2017-18…even for the ‘767 YHZ-LHR service?


My guess would be 737s on both YHZ and YYT to LHR.


They (AC) may try it...but for long-term YHZ-LHR is going 787. 737MAX doesn't have needed cargo space of the 787 and YHZ-LHR is heavy on cargo.

If 789 is too big AC can lease more 788s.
Last edited by bmacleod on Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dominion301
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:06 pm

longhauler wrote:
This may have something to do with the latest fleet plan Air Canada publicly announced. It appears the A319s will be the first to leave the fleet as the 737s arrive. (Not the A320s as orginally predicted).

ghYHZ wrote:
And I wonder what the plans are beyond winter 2017-18…even for the ‘767 YHZ-LHR service?


My guess would be 737s on both YHZ and YYT to LHR.


This makes a lot of sense (well I'd imagine YHZ would stay 763 in summer and then a 738MAX in winter, which would allow AC to maintain daily year-round ops vs. 4 weekly in winter) and the 767 this winter can fill-in at YYT while the MAXes get ETOPS certified.

The MAX getting ETOPS'd certainly creates some exciting new transatlantic route possibilities for both AC and WS.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:23 pm

longhauler wrote:
This may have something to do with the latest fleet plan Air Canada publicly announced. It appears the A319s will be the first to leave the fleet as the 737s arrive. (Not the A320s as orginally predicted).

Will they leave entirely or will they be transferred to Rouge?
 
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Continental767
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:25 pm

longhauler wrote:
This may have something to do with the latest fleet plan Air Canada publicly announced. It appears the A319s will be the first to leave the fleet as the 737s arrive. (Not the A320s as orginally predicted.)


Where did you see the fleet plan? I would be interested in looking at their plans. Thanks!
Indianapolis.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:33 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
longhauler wrote:
This may have something to do with the latest fleet plan Air Canada publicly announced. It appears the A319s will be the first to leave the fleet as the 737s arrive. (Not the A320s as orginally predicted).

Will they leave entirely or will they be transferred to Rouge?


I know in another recent thread longhauler said he saw internally that the plan is to move the 5 Rouge 321s over to mainline and move 5 mainline 319s to Rouge. I guess the rest of the mainline 319s will be the first to leave AC's fleet according to what he's saying/hearing.

Does having a pair of Rouge 319 with ETOPS (120?) make sense for Rouge for say KEF?
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:15 pm

longhauler wrote:
This may have something to do with the latest fleet plan Air Canada publicly announced. It appears the A319s will be the first to leave the fleet as the 737s arrive. (Not the A320s as orginally predicted).

ghYHZ wrote:
And I wonder what the plans are beyond winter 2017-18…even for the ‘767 YHZ-LHR service?


My guess would be 737s on both YHZ and YYT to LHR.


Some of those A320s are almost 30 years old (IINM, only Air India has older A320s among prominent operators). Why is AC retiring the A319s before the A320s?
 
kabq737
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:25 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
longhauler wrote:
This may have something to do with the latest fleet plan Air Canada publicly announced. It appears the A319s will be the first to leave the fleet as the 737s arrive. (Not the A320s as orginally predicted).

ghYHZ wrote:
And I wonder what the plans are beyond winter 2017-18…even for the ‘767 YHZ-LHR service?


My guess would be 737s on both YHZ and YYT to LHR.


Some of those A320s are almost 30 years old (IINM, only Air India has older A320s among prominent operators). Why is AC retiring the A319s before the A320s?

It is highly likely that the A319 is less efficient. It is also possible that they are trying to increase capacity and would like to retain the larger aircraft as long as possible.
Been on: 320, 321, 333, 733, 73G, 738, 739, 744, 752, 763, 764, 772, 789, C208, CR7, CR9, BE20, MD83, MD88, MD90, E70, E75, E90, TRIM
Flown: SEEKER, C150M C172N, C172R, C172S, C182RG, DA40, PA-46
 
bmacleod
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:40 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
longhauler wrote:
This may have something to do with the latest fleet plan Air Canada publicly announced. It appears the A319s will be the first to leave the fleet as the 737s arrive. (Not the A320s as orginally predicted).

ghYHZ wrote:
And I wonder what the plans are beyond winter 2017-18…even for the ‘767 YHZ-LHR service?


My guess would be 737s on both YHZ and YYT to LHR.


This makes a lot of sense (well I'd imagine YHZ would stay 763 in summer and then a 738MAX in winter, which would allow AC to maintain daily year-round ops vs. 4 weekly in winter) and the 767 this winter can fill-in at YYT while the MAXes get ETOPS certified.

The MAX getting ETOPS'd certainly creates some exciting new transatlantic route possibilities for both AC and WS.


From an earlier discussion pointing to why the 737MAX is too small (for cargo at least) on YHZ-LHR.

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1358293
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atcsundevil
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:32 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
I know in another recent thread longhauler said he saw internally that the plan is to move the 5 Rouge 321s over to mainline and move 5 mainline 319s to Rouge. I guess the rest of the mainline 319s will be the first to leave AC's fleet according to what he's saying/hearing.

Does having a pair of Rouge 319 with ETOPS (120?) make sense for Rouge for say KEF?

That makes sense -- thanks for the explanation. I'm surprised they want to bring five A321s into the AC fleet when the general trend has obviously been the other way around. I'm guessing some sort of a swap was necessary for this to work.

I could see these A319s being used on long, thin routes to the Caribbean and Central America, but an expansion of European service would make sense, too. With another 16 seats crammed into them, it could make some routes profitable that are more difficult with the AC config and cost structure. It would also give AC a little capacity boost on North American routes.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:57 pm

Somewhere on a.net, I read something about there not being much point in having the A321 at Rouge, in that the extra capacity didn't make them more profitable than they would be in mainline. Whereas, the Rouge seating makes the Rouge A319 significantly more profitable than as a mainline bird. I wish I could remember where that discussion happened.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:32 am

aerolimani wrote:
Somewhere on a.net, I read something about there not being much point in having the A321 at Rouge, in that the extra capacity didn't make them more profitable than they would be in mainline. Whereas, the Rouge seating makes the Rouge A319 significantly more profitable than as a mainline bird. I wish I could remember where that discussion happened.


It was a thread from about a week ago and that's what I was referring to above. Longhauler was the one that said it in the other thread.

This will be YYT's first scheduled widebody service in quite a few years. I'm guessing on days with a YYT stop the YHZ pax will clear customs on the inbound so that AC861 can pick up domestic pax at YYT?
 
jmt18325
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:09 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
longhauler wrote:
This may have something to do with the latest fleet plan Air Canada publicly announced. It appears the A319s will be the first to leave the fleet as the 737s arrive. (Not the A320s as orginally predicted).

ghYHZ wrote:
And I wonder what the plans are beyond winter 2017-18…even for the ‘767 YHZ-LHR service?


My guess would be 737s on both YHZ and YYT to LHR.


Some of those A320s are almost 30 years old (IINM, only Air India has older A320s among prominent operators). Why is AC retiring the A319s before the A320s?


Simple - the A319s have higher CASM.

Edit: They may also have some resale value left, unlike the A320.
Last edited by jmt18325 on Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
jmt18325
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:10 am

Continental767 wrote:
longhauler wrote:
This may have something to do with the latest fleet plan Air Canada publicly announced. It appears the A319s will be the first to leave the fleet as the 737s arrive. (Not the A320s as orginally predicted.)


Where did you see the fleet plan? I would be interested in looking at their plans. Thanks!


Per the PDF, Page 19 + 20 (numbered pages 17 + 18): https://www.aircanada.com/content/dam/a ... MDA_q1.pdf
 
jmt18325
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:14 am

atcsundevil wrote:
longhauler wrote:
This may have something to do with the latest fleet plan Air Canada publicly announced. It appears the A319s will be the first to leave the fleet as the 737s arrive. (Not the A320s as orginally predicted).

Will they leave entirely or will they be transferred to Rouge?


Rouge is at their narrowbody cap, and only has room for one more wide body. Someone did mention that there may be a switch coming (not yet reflected in the fleet plan) where some of the last mainline A319s go to Rouge in exchange for the 5 new A321s operating at Rouge. Those would go to mainline.
 
bmacleod
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:36 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
Somewhere on a.net, I read something about there not being much point in having the A321 at Rouge, in that the extra capacity didn't make them more profitable than they would be in mainline. Whereas, the Rouge seating makes the Rouge A319 significantly more profitable than as a mainline bird. I wish I could remember where that discussion happened.


It was a thread from about a week ago and that's what I was referring to above. Longhauler was the one that said it in the other thread.

This will be YYT's first scheduled widebody service in quite a few years. I'm guessing on days with a YYT stop the YHZ pax will clear customs on the inbound so that AC861 can pick up domestic pax at YYT?


If AC wants to avoid that major inconvenience it introduced in 2002 for AC861 when still had YYT stopover (YHZ bound passengers had to deplane in YYT to clear customs before re-boarding to continue to YHZ) it won't permit new passengers from YYT for the short hop to YHZ.
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Dominion301
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:48 pm

bmacleod wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
Somewhere on a.net, I read something about there not being much point in having the A321 at Rouge, in that the extra capacity didn't make them more profitable than they would be in mainline. Whereas, the Rouge seating makes the Rouge A319 significantly more profitable than as a mainline bird. I wish I could remember where that discussion happened.


It was a thread from about a week ago and that's what I was referring to above. Longhauler was the one that said it in the other thread.

This will be YYT's first scheduled widebody service in quite a few years. I'm guessing on days with a YYT stop the YHZ pax will clear customs on the inbound so that AC861 can pick up domestic pax at YYT?


If AC wants to avoid that major inconvenience it introduced in 2002 for AC861 when still had YYT stopover (YHZ bound passengers had to deplane in YYT to clear customs before re-boarding to continue to YHZ) it won't permit new passengers from YYT for the short hop to YHZ.


At that point the flight would be a domestic flight, so it would indeed permit it. In fact I just checked 03DEC17 and AC861 is for sale on YYT-YHZ...ironically departing only 5 minutes later than a daily Q400 at 1440. That's also how it used to be during it's final few years in operation. Way back when AC861 did not deplane YHZ pax at YYT and carried on 1/2 empty to YHZ where the remainder of the pax cleared customs in YHZ. On the flip side, even back then YHZ-YYT local seats were always sold on AC860.

It's the exact same situation with WS' LGW-YYT route, which continues to YOW, same-plane service under the same flight number. The LGW-YOW pax clear customs at YYT and YYT-origin domestic pax board the flight to YOW.
 
bmacleod
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:12 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
longhauler wrote:
This may have something to do with the latest fleet plan Air Canada publicly announced. It appears the A319s will be the first to leave the fleet as the 737s arrive. (Not the A320s as orginally predicted).

ghYHZ wrote:
And I wonder what the plans are beyond winter 2017-18…even for the ‘767 YHZ-LHR service?


My guess would be 737s on both YHZ and YYT to LHR.


This makes a lot of sense (well I'd imagine YHZ would stay 763 in summer and then a 738MAX in winter, which would allow AC to maintain daily year-round ops vs. 4 weekly in winter) and the 767 this winter can fill-in at YYT while the MAXes get ETOPS certified.

The MAX getting ETOPS'd certainly creates some exciting new transatlantic route possibilities for both AC and WS.


Well according to latest news release AC has 'rejigged' its 737MAX order - also to note the 737MAX is replace the A320/A321 - not the 763. Looks like AC is leaning on replacing the 763 on YHZ-LHR with the 788.

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1367053
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
Dominion301
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Re: Transatlantic A319 going ’767-300

Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:02 am

bmacleod wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
longhauler wrote:
This may have something to do with the latest fleet plan Air Canada publicly announced. It appears the A319s will be the first to leave the fleet as the 737s arrive. (Not the A320s as orginally predicted).



My guess would be 737s on both YHZ and YYT to LHR.


This makes a lot of sense (well I'd imagine YHZ would stay 763 in summer and then a 738MAX in winter, which would allow AC to maintain daily year-round ops vs. 4 weekly in winter) and the 767 this winter can fill-in at YYT while the MAXes get ETOPS certified.

The MAX getting ETOPS'd certainly creates some exciting new transatlantic route possibilities for both AC and WS.


Well according to latest news release AC has 'rejigged' its 737MAX order - also to note the 737MAX is replace the A320/A321 - not the 763. Looks like AC is leaning on replacing the 763 on YHZ-LHR with the 788.

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1367053


Eventually the 788s will replace the 763s within mainline, but it won't be anytime soon.

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