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KarelXWB
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Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:34 am

Air Canada converted a large chunk of its 737 MAX 9 order to the smaller MAX 8 variant:

The carrier has firm orders for sixty-one B737 MAX aircraft which had consisted of thirty-three B737 MAX 8s and twenty-eight B737 MAX 9s. The order included substitution rights between them as well as for the B737 MAX 7 aircraft.

However, in a 1Q17 financial disclosure, Air Canada said it had now exercised its substitution rights and had rejigged the order substituting sixteen B737 MAX 9s for sixteen B737 MAX 8 aircraft. Consequently, the firm order now entails forty-nine B737 MAX 8 and twelve B737 MAX 9s.


Article
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... order-book
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Someone83
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order

Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:42 am

The -9MAX keep loosing orders. After the -10MAX was launched the -9MAX seems to end up as a niche aircraft
 
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:43 am

The 737-900ER - Boeing's red-headed step-child.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:00 am

I think it has more to do with Air Canada's evalutaion of future of their domestic and short haul market, rather than the aircraft type.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:48 am

anshabhi wrote:
I think it has more to do with Air Canada's evalutaion of future of their domestic and short haul market, rather than the aircraft type.


A strange conclusion. You move orders from one type to the other type and it has nothing to do with the type of aircraft?

I would rather assume that, having the experience of A321 in VX gives them a comparison between it and the 737-900ER and the result is a reduction of 737-9 orders.
Even if the article states something different in regards to the A320 and A321.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:52 am

Not so long ago AC mentioned that the 737 MAX will complement the A321 instead of replacing, so perhaps that explains why the airline needs less MAX 9 aircraft than anticipated.
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:55 am

mjoelnir wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
I think it has more to do with Air Canada's evalutaion of future of their domestic and short haul market, rather than the aircraft type.


A strange conclusion. You move orders from one type to the other type and it has nothing to do with the type of aircraft?

I would rather assume that, having the experience of A321 in VX gives them a comparison between it and the 737-900ER and the result is a reduction of 737-9 orders.
Even if the article states something different in regards to the A320 and A321.

I mean they are moving because of less than earlier expected demand i.e. because of the size of aircraft and not on whether they like Max-8 or -9.
Last edited by anshabhi on Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
a320fan
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:55 am

mjoelnir wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
I think it has more to do with Air Canada's evalutaion of future of their domestic and short haul market, rather than the aircraft type.


A strange conclusion. You move orders from one type to the other type and it has nothing to do with the type of aircraft?

I would rather assume that, having the experience of A321 in VX gives them a comparison between it and the 737-900ER and the result is a reduction of 737-9 orders.
Even if the article states something different in regards to the A320 and A321.

I'm confused what this has to do with VX
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:55 am

KarelXWB wrote:
Not so long ago AC mentioned that the 737 MAX will complement the A321 instead of replacing, so perhaps that explains why the airline needs less MAX 9 aircraft than anticipated.


That was my thought — not unlike how the 738 and A321 are complementary in AA's fleet.
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:58 am

Interesting that they went down to the 8 and not up to the 10. Might mean a secure future for the A321 with AC.
 
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keesje
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:06 am

I've been told repeatedly the fleet will standarize on 737MAX. Full stop.

The A321's that have been sneaking into the fleet recently are temporary to fill the gab until the MAX's -9 arrive and will move to Rouge.

The (grossly overrated) AKH / pallet system AC uses will be replaced by the lighter and handier bulk load process used widely in the America;'s.

Image

Can we lock this thread?
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mjoelnir
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:17 am

a320fan wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
I think it has more to do with Air Canada's evalutaion of future of their domestic and short haul market, rather than the aircraft type.


A strange conclusion. You move orders from one type to the other type and it has nothing to do with the type of aircraft?

I would rather assume that, having the experience of A321 in VX gives them a comparison between it and the 737-900ER and the result is a reduction of 737-9 orders.
Even if the article states something different in regards to the A320 and A321.

I'm confused what this has to do with VX


Perhaps because I am stupid!
 
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:22 am

seahawk wrote:
Interesting that they went down to the 8 and not up to the 10. Might mean a secure future for the A321 with AC.


That is what I find interesting too. I would have thought they would be interested in the 737-10. However given the recent A321 additions they may have greater need for smaller airplanes, especially since so many A319s are over at Rouge.
 
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:08 am

I suspect any lessor with a MAX9 order will be looking to change to the -8 or -10 as there will be very little market for used -9's
 
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:10 am

Here is a quote from the CEO of Air Canada about them slowing growth.

The company’s $10-billion capex saw the purchase of 37 Boeing 787 Dreamliners, 61 737 Max jets and 45 Bombardier CSeries aircraft, allowing it to expand to new destinations and increase capacity. However, the airline expects capacity growth to slow from the double-digit increases seen in recent quarters.

Now, Rovinescu said the focus in Air Canada’s next chapter of growth will involve consolidating its international routes, opening new North American markets with the CSeries jets, while still driving improvements to customer service.

“A consolidation in our activity in our many markets is going to continue to increase the drive of Air Canada’s profitability,” he said. “We will have some opportunity for growth, but it will not be of the same order of magnitude we’ve seen recently.”


http://business.financialpost.com/pmn/t ... fca873a777

I think Air Canada slowing their growth is probably a good explanation for downsizing from 737-9s to 737-8s.


“The MAX airplane’s capability and range are something we haven’t had in a narrow-body aircraft of that size,” said Duncan Bureau, Air Canada’s vice-president of global sales. “We are extremely pleased with the capability of the aircraft.”
...

During a conference call with industry analysts in February, Air Canada chief executive officer Calin Rovinescu said the seating configuration for the carrier’s MAX orders had yet to be finalized.

“Think of it as replacing fundamentally our Airbus narrow-body fleet,” said Rovinescu.


https://www.skiesmag.com/features/air-c ... fficiency/
 
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:21 am

mjoelnir wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
I think it has more to do with Air Canada's evalutaion of future of their domestic and short haul market, rather than the aircraft type.


A strange conclusion. You move orders from one type to the other type and it has nothing to do with the type of aircraft?

The aircraft have not changed. The needs of the business have changed. Nothing strange about that.
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:32 am

keesje wrote:
Can we lock this thread?

He's made his remark... there is obviously no need for anyone else to comment.
 
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:38 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
....
“Think of it as replacing fundamentally our Airbus narrow-body fleet,” said Rovinescu.[/i]
https://www.skiesmag.com/features/air-c ... fficiency/


Yes, that's what happening. It's not downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book, it's just downsizing capacity from -9 to -8 to follow changing market requirements. Correct. Amazing. https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1351597&start=50#p19367175
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:05 pm

Noteworthy comments from the skiesmag.com article. While they don't say the MAX is an overall better airplane; they suggest it's a better fit for Air Canada. The MAX's lighter airframe relative to Airbus models seems to be the main driver for their preference for the Boeing model. Please don't beat up on me just for reiterating these points; I'm well aware how hyper-partisan these threads can become. Not trying to be incendiary.

"Bureau said the MAX will give Air Canada greater flexibility in route planning, noting that the new planes are lighter and have more efficient engines than the current Airbus models in the fleet.

“The overall economics are significantly better,” he said. “The MAX allows us more versatility.”

"Klaus Goersch, who served as Air Canada’s chief operating officer for more than four years until he left in April, said the MAX will be a great fit for the airline.

“The MAX is more efficient. It flies faster and higher, and is more efficient than our current Airbus planes,” he said in a recent interview while still Air Canada’s COO. “The mission profile of the 737 MAX is essentially the same mission profile of an Airbus narrow-body. We can use it to sun destinations in the winter time, and we can use it transcontinental in the summer time. They can even do Europe and Hawaii.”
 
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:11 pm

keesje wrote:

Can we lock this thread?


:checkmark: And the forum. And the internet! :hissyfit: :white:
 
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:12 pm

The headline is misleading. Air Canada's order hasn't been downsized; the aircraft on order has been downgauged.
 
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:20 pm

I'm expecting those -9s to be turned into -10s in due time.
 
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:23 pm

drgmobile wrote:
The headline is misleading. Air Canada's order hasn't been downsized; the aircraft on order has been downgauged.


Agreed. Downsize implies fewer units.

keesje wrote:
Can we lock this thread?


If we had, the world would not have had this rare moment of self-awareness.

mjoelnir wrote:
Perhaps because I am stupid!


:rotfl: We kid because we love.
 
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:29 pm

keesje wrote:
I've been told repeatedly the fleet will standarize on 737MAX. Full stop.

The A321's that have been sneaking into the fleet recently are temporary to fill the gab until the MAX's -9 arrive and will move to Rouge.

The (grossly overrated) AKH / pallet system AC uses will be replaced by the lighter and handier bulk load process used widely in the America;'s.

Wouldn't you be better off braying when we see AC order the A321s to fill the role the MAX-9s will still be filling?

Same for UA too, by the way, but in that case it's MAX-10.

Seems the fact that the order is still the same number of frames is an endorsement. 49 MAX-8 + 12 MAX-9 is a substantial fleet.

Perhaps they'll look at some MAX-10s in the post 2020 time frame if the business is growing more strongly by then.
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:33 pm

Nothing has happened really. Apart from AC reconsidering their 737-9 decision by low profile removing their slots from the 737-9 assembly line-up. Which shouldn't come as unexpected when Boeing themselves was forced to redo the aircraft to keep United on board. :eyebrow:
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:41 pm

The day they order the -10 you will once again be nowhere to be found. We almost had to put an APB out for you when Boeing launched the -10 and tons of operators flocked to it. I love your contributions from the technical side of most of these threads but the -9 bashing is getting a bit old.
 
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:46 pm

AvObserver wrote:
Noteworthy comments from the skiesmag.com article. While they don't say the MAX is an overall better airplane; they suggest it's a better fit for Air Canada. The MAX's lighter airframe relative to Airbus models seems to be the main driver for their preference for the Boeing model. Please don't beat up on me just for reiterating these points; I'm well aware how hyper-partisan these threads can become. Not trying to be incendiary.

"Bureau said the MAX will give Air Canada greater flexibility in route planning, noting that the new planes are lighter and have more efficient engines than the current Airbus models in the fleet.

“The overall economics are significantly better,” he said. “The MAX allows us more versatility.”

"Klaus Goersch, who served as Air Canada’s chief operating officer for more than four years until he left in April, said the MAX will be a great fit for the airline.

“The MAX is more efficient. It flies faster and higher, and is more efficient than our current Airbus planes,” he said in a recent interview while still Air Canada’s COO. “The mission profile of the 737 MAX is essentially the same mission profile of an Airbus narrow-body. We can use it to sun destinations in the winter time, and we can use it transcontinental in the summer time. They can even do Europe and Hawaii.”


I don't think it is incendiary to post quotes from executives at Air Canada where they are expressing excitement for the new airplanes they are getting. It appears that they are excited for the 737MAX and are adjusting their fleet plan to include smaller airplanes because they are cutting back on growth.

With that said it wouldn't surprise me if the rest of the 737-9s get converted to 737-10s. I think it is possible that Air Canada switched their earlier 737-9 deliveries to 737-8s since they are cutting back on growth. I think they can do that up to 18 months before delivery. They may decide to convert the latter 737-9s to 737-10s if the market improves and they want capacity growth. They probably have another year before they have to make that decision.

I believe part of the reason why Boeing doesn't publish a breakdown in the 737 MAX orders is because airlines have the ability to easily convert orders to different sizes at pre negotiated prices to adjust to their changing competitive markets.
 
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:07 pm

Interestingly, the number of MAX 9 in the revised order, is pretty similar to the current number of A321 in the mainline fleet (15 A321 vs 12 MAX 9). And the number of MAX 8, resembles the number of A320 (42 A320 vs 49 MAX 8). Total 8+9 = 61 aircraft. Total 320+321 = 57 aircraft. So very modest growth of 4 aircraft in this category of aircraft, and a mix very similar to the current A32x mix (minus the A319, which the C-series replaces). So there really IS nothing to see here folks. As for the MAX 10... the range is less than the 9, so that may play into AC's calculations. Clearly they are enamoured with the extra capability of the MAX over the current Airbus fleet, and the 10 may not be as good a fit for AC as some think it is, the modest extra capacity of two rows 12 seats) may not be worth the loss of route flexibility that the lost range will incur (300 n.m. according to Boeing). All in all this seems like a logical and conservative move by Air Canada to modernize, and modestly grow, the narrowbody fleet.

Beech
 
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:12 pm

beechnut wrote:
As for the MAX 10... the range is less than the 9, so that may play into AC's calculations. Clearly they are enamoured with the extra capability of the MAX over the current Airbus fleet, and the 10 may not be as good a fit for AC as some think it is, the modest extra capacity of two rows 12 seats) may not be worth the loss of route flexibility that the lost range will incur (300 n.m. according to Boeing). All in all this seems like a logical and conservative move by Air Canada to modernize, and modestly grow, the narrowbody fleet.

The 737-10's range isn't an issue for AC. The range is similar to the A321ceo and can fly to just about anywhere in North America from AC's hubs. I wouldn't be shocked if AC was a future operator.
 
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:21 pm

Polot wrote:
beechnut wrote:
As for the MAX 10... the range is less than the 9, so that may play into AC's calculations. Clearly they are enamoured with the extra capability of the MAX over the current Airbus fleet, and the 10 may not be as good a fit for AC as some think it is, the modest extra capacity of two rows 12 seats) may not be worth the loss of route flexibility that the lost range will incur (300 n.m. according to Boeing). All in all this seems like a logical and conservative move by Air Canada to modernize, and modestly grow, the narrowbody fleet.

The 737-10's range isn't an issue for AC. The range is similar to the A321ceo and can fly to just about anywhere in North America from AC's hubs. I wouldn't be shocked if AC was a future operator.


The range of the 737-10 given includes the use of one ATC, that makes it near identical with an A321 using one ATC.
 
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:47 pm

Polot wrote:
beechnut wrote:
As for the MAX 10... the range is less than the 9, so that may play into AC's calculations. Clearly they are enamoured with the extra capability of the MAX over the current Airbus fleet, and the 10 may not be as good a fit for AC as some think it is, the modest extra capacity of two rows 12 seats) may not be worth the loss of route flexibility that the lost range will incur (300 n.m. according to Boeing). All in all this seems like a logical and conservative move by Air Canada to modernize, and modestly grow, the narrowbody fleet.

The 737-10's range isn't an issue for AC. The range is similar to the A321ceo and can fly to just about anywhere in North America from AC's hubs. I wouldn't be shocked if AC was a future operator.


Yes but... the extra range over the A321 CEO offers more operational flexibility to explore new routes. My wife just traded, thanks to the VW diesel scandal, her 2013 Golf TDI Wagon for a new 2017 Golf Wagon. Even though the new car is a base model and the old one was mid-range model, the new car has more features (not range though, as it's not a diesel). And it was cheaper too than the old one 4 years ago.

So why match the capability of an older aircraft when you can buy a new one that can do what the old one did, plus more? 3500 n.m. gives a wee bit more eastern Canada to Europe possibility than 3200 n.m., or allows one to increase payload for the same capability.

That said yes, they may find the 10 fits their needs in the future, and convert some MAX options into the 10, but for now their crystal ball says to take a more conservative approach while at the same time increasing flexibility.

Beech
 
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:58 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
The range of the 737-10 given includes the use of one ATC, that makes it near identical with an A321 using one ATC.

It makes it near identical to a A321neo using 1 ATC. I believe it is about equivalent to a A321ceo with 2 ATCs, which is what I was getting at as that is what AC is currently operating thus has no qualms about range with.
 
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:59 pm

One market failure in the industry is lag time between ordering (esp when everyone else is ordering, and slots are full years out), and receiving planes. Airline executives are needing to plan fleets for 5-8 years ahead. Really dicey. Having the option to change orders from one model to another two years out, and to accelerate or defer deliveries reduces the impact of that market failure.
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:18 pm

keesje wrote:
Nothing has happened really. Apart from AC reconsidering their 737-9 decision by low profile removing their slots from the 737-9 assembly line-up.

Since the -8 and -9 come off the same assembly line and the total number of orders is unchanged, you are really going out of your way to bash the -9.

keesje wrote:
Which shouldn't come as unexpected when Boeing themselves was forced to redo the aircraft to keep United on board. :eyebrow:

"Redoing the aircraft" is what we keep seeing you suggest Airbus do to the A321 on the fly-paper proposals you keep posting. Making a small stretch, improving the landing gear and doing some aerodynamic recontouring is a lot cheaper than the two sets of wings you keep suggesting Airbus do. Kind of nice you can keep a great customer like UA happy with a modest spend, isn't it?

beechnut wrote:
Interestingly, the number of MAX 9 in the revised order, is pretty similar to the current number of A321 in the mainline fleet (15 A321 vs 12 MAX 9). And the number of MAX 8, resembles the number of A320 (42 A320 vs 49 MAX 8). Total 8+9 = 61 aircraft. Total 320+321 = 57 aircraft. So very modest growth of 4 aircraft in this category of aircraft, and a mix very similar to the current A32x mix (minus the A319, which the C-series replaces). So there really IS nothing to see here folks. As for the MAX 10... the range is less than the 9, so that may play into AC's calculations. Clearly they are enamoured with the extra capability of the MAX over the current Airbus fleet, and the 10 may not be as good a fit for AC as some think it is, the modest extra capacity of two rows 12 seats) may not be worth the loss of route flexibility that the lost range will incur (300 n.m. according to Boeing). All in all this seems like a logical and conservative move by Air Canada to modernize, and modestly grow, the narrowbody fleet.

Yep, all this, and somehow being able to deal without containers is a pretty remarkable thing, isn't it?
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:26 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
The 737-900ER - Boeing's red-headed step-child.


Hey, its kick a ginger day!
 
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:41 pm

keesje wrote:
Nothing has happened really. Apart from AC reconsidering their 737-9 decision by low profile removing their slots from the 737-9 assembly line-up. Which shouldn't come as unexpected when Boeing themselves was forced to redo the aircraft to keep United on board. :eyebrow:


Like the A320 Family, believe it or not, the 737s are made interchangeably.

AirCanada seemed to explain why and this is why having a family of different sizes makes sense. AC isn't a large user of the larger than 738/A320 aircraft and has few A321s.

No drama. Just an airline leveraging their vendors options to effectively execute their business plan.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:12 pm

I think it's time to cue up Cyndi Lauper's "True Colors", because a few people are really revealing theirs in this thread again. I'm at a loss as to what the big deal is with this order change? Even if it's because they want to pick up more A321s, who cares? Is it really that important to some people that a certain aircraft win every time?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:08 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
I think it's time to cue up Cyndi Lauper's "True Colors", because a few people are really revealing theirs in this thread again. I'm at a loss as to what the big deal is with this order change? Even if it's because they want to pick up more A321s, who cares? Is it really that important to some people that a certain aircraft win every time?

I don't know, I kind of feel bad for Keesje. All he does is read through threads looking for places to post irrelevant pictures of A321s while bashing Boeing. Kind of sad, actually.
 
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:33 pm

The headline is misleading. Air Canada's order hasn't been downsized; the aircraft on order has been downgauged.

I'm expecting those -9s to be turned into -10s in due time.

The aircraft have not changed. The needs of the business have changed. Nothing strange about that.

Seems the fact that the order is still the same number of frames is an endorsement. 49 MAX-8 + 12 MAX-9 is a substantial fleet.

Perhaps they'll look at some MAX-10s in the post 2020 time frame if the business is growing more strongly by then.

I think it is possible that Air Canada switched their earlier 737-9 deliveries to 737-8s since they are cutting back on growth.

The 737-10's range isn't an issue for AC. The range is similar to the A321ceo and can fly to just about anywhere in North America from AC's hubs. I wouldn't be shocked if AC was a future operator.


Air Canada cancelled part of their 737-9 backlog and pushed the rest out as expected. I wonder why the surprise / denial is still so thick after all those years.

removing their slots from the 737-9 assembly line-up.
Since the -8 and -9 come off the same assembly line and the total number of orders is unchanged, you are really going out of your way to bash the -9.


Line-up

a lot cheaper than the two sets of wings you keep suggesting Airbus do

Me ?

The day they order the -10 you will once again be nowhere to be found.

Sorry for hanging out at a hot french airport..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9411
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:36 pm

Polot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
The range of the 737-10 given includes the use of one ATC, that makes it near identical with an A321 using one ATC.

It makes it near identical to a A321neo using 1 ATC. I believe it is about equivalent to a A321ceo with 2 ATCs, which is what I was getting at as that is what AC is currently operating thus has no qualms about range with.


It makes it nearly identical in range to a A321ceo with 1ATC and 3,200 nm range. The A321neo is at 3,500nm with 1ATC.
 
tphuang
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:45 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
I think it's time to cue up Cyndi Lauper's "True Colors", because a few people are really revealing theirs in this thread again. I'm at a loss as to what the big deal is with this order change? Even if it's because they want to pick up more A321s, who cares? Is it really that important to some people that a certain aircraft win every time?

Well I fly yyz to LGA quite a bit. I previously had option of flying 737 or e90 or 320, but once the latter 2 goes away. I will be stuck with 737 or even worse e45 on AA. I have no option to avoid them in a few years. So it does matter for people that fly on these routes who want choices.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:54 pm

Did Air Canada order more A321s to cover the cancelled 737-9s? No.
Did Air Canada convert 737-9s to 737-10s? No.

Sounds like Air Canada feels they don't need more ~185 seaters going forward than they currently operate rather than dissatisfaction with the 737-9. The MAX-8 will also offer a bit more capacity than the A320 due to the 2m longer fuselage so that will allow them to carry more traffic on existing A320 routes which may preclude the need to upgauge them to A321 / 737-9.
Last edited by Stitch on Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Polot
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:55 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
It makes it nearly identical in range to a A321ceo with 1ATC and 3,200 nm range. The A321neo is at 3,500nm with 1ATC.

That is incorrect. The A321ceo needs 2 ACTs to fly 3,200 nm at Airbus's typical passenger load (185 pax- ~40k lb payload) with the 93.5t MTOW. The A321neo flies about 3,300-3,400nm with one ACT with the same MTOW. You can check yourself in the payload range charts in the A321 ACAP. Think about what you are suggesting for a moment. You are saying the A321ceo with 1ACT flies the same distance as the 737-10 with 1 ACT despite having less total fuel capacity (~1300 L/300 US gal less) and thirstier engines.


The Neo adds about 400-500 nm to the A320, hence why Airbus advertises the A321 as flying 3,700nm with 2 ACTs. Each ACT adds about 300-400 nm of range.
Last edited by Polot on Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
ACATROYAL
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:25 am

Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:02 pm

Lets not forget that one of the main reasons AC ordered the 737 was because Boeing gave them a price that AC simply couldn't refuse. Boeing just lost the American Airlines narrow body order to Airbus(321) and wanted to strike back at one of Airbus's customers and Air Canada was just in the right place at the right time!
 
yycdel
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:15 pm

This order changed happened several weeks ago, surprised it is just being posted here
 
astuteman
Posts: 7184
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:20 pm

AvObserver wrote:
Noteworthy comments from the skiesmag.com article. While they don't say the MAX is an overall better airplane; they suggest it's a better fit for Air Canada. The MAX's lighter airframe relative to Airbus models seems to be the main driver for their preference for the Boeing model. Please don't beat up on me just for reiterating these points; I'm well aware how hyper-partisan these threads can become. Not trying to be incendiary.

"Bureau said the MAX will give Air Canada greater flexibility in route planning, noting that the new planes are lighter and have more efficient engines than the current Airbus models in the fleet.

“The overall economics are significantly better,” he said. “The MAX allows us more versatility.”

"Klaus Goersch, who served as Air Canada’s chief operating officer for more than four years until he left in April, said the MAX will be a great fit for the airline.

“The MAX is more efficient. It flies faster and higher, and is more efficient than our current Airbus planes,” he said in a recent interview while still Air Canada’s COO. “The mission profile of the 737 MAX is essentially the same mission profile of an Airbus narrow-body. We can use it to sun destinations in the winter time, and we can use it transcontinental in the summer time. They can even do Europe and Hawaii.”


Gosh. I can't remember the last time I had to pick you up for something my friend. But here goes :)

May I just point out that they are specifically expressing a preference for the new 737MAX vs the old A320 CEO.
Just a point of order. Clearly if they really had the hots for the NEO it would be happening. But it's not. The MAX clearly works for them.
Are we surprised they like them better than OLD A320's though?
I am tasked to wonder why that is a big deal...

Rgds
 
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Polot
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Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:26 pm

astuteman wrote:
Are we surprised they like them better than OLD A320's though?


Yes. Do you realize that AC uses containers (for the A320/A321) and that the 737 can't accept containers?

Image
:duck:
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3642
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:30 pm

ACATROYAL wrote:
Lets not forget that one of the main reasons AC ordered the 737 was because Boeing gave them a price that AC simply couldn't refuse. Boeing just lost the American Airlines narrow body order to Airbus(321) and wanted to strike back at one of Airbus's customers and Air Canada was just in the right place at the right time!


The quotes from the Air Canada executives posted earlier in this thread imply that they are pretty excited about the MAX when they say it will fly higher and faster. While price probably was a factor, it looks like they are excited about performance too. The MAX can fly higher than the NEO.
 
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AeroTyke
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:36 pm

Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:53 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Air Canada converted a large chunk of its 737 MAX 9 order to the smaller MAX 8 variant:

The carrier has firm orders for sixty-one B737 MAX aircraft which had consisted of thirty-three B737 MAX 8s and twenty-eight B737 MAX 9s. The order included substitution rights between them as well as for the B737 MAX 7 aircraft.

However, in a 1Q17 financial disclosure, Air Canada said it had now exercised its substitution rights and had rejigged the order substituting sixteen B737 MAX 9s for sixteen B737 MAX 8 aircraft. Consequently, the firm order now entails forty-nine B737 MAX 8 and twelve B737 MAX 9s.


Article
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... order-book


I bet that those 12 Max 9s all happen to be ones that are due before the Max 10 is ready. :duck:
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3642
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Air Canada downsizes 737 MAX 9 order book

Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:55 pm

Polot wrote:
astuteman wrote:
Are we surprised they like them better than OLD A320's though?


Yes. Do you realize that AC uses containers (for the A320/A321) and that the 737 can't accept containers?

Image
:duck:


What was Air Canada thinking? Do they realize that 737-9s can't take cargo containers?

Joking aside a shift to slightly smaller planes at Air Canada isn't a very big deal. Air Canada is pretty excited about the 737 MAX.

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