Airlinerdude
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DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:08 am

The latest in the US3/ME3 saga has Delta releasing a video titled 'educating employees on Gulf carrier subsidies'.

Link:
http://news.delta.com/delta-releases-full-length-video-educating-employees-gulf-carrier-subsidies?utm_medium=email&utm_source=skies&utm_content=3&utm_campaign=Delta+Video&source=Delta+Video

I think Delta has a fantastic product, and they usually are one of my preferred airlines when travelling to/from the US; however this video really does sway the facts, and purposely poses a lot of information out of context. I do wonder whether 'educating' is the most appropriate verb to use, perhaps 'brainwashing' might be a more appropriate substitution.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:25 am

Whoa.

I'm an unrepentant Widgeteer, but even I've gotta admit: that's one shameless exercise in bovine scatology... wow! :eek:
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Varsity1
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:30 am

Seems pretty accurate. Believing these airlines are even remotely profitable is ludicrous.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
Airlinerdude
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:35 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Seems pretty accurate. Believing these airlines are even remotely profitable is ludicrous.


I'll agree that EY and QR are likely not profitable, however to group EK in that bunch is, as you put it, 'ludicrous'.
 
Varsity1
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:42 am

Airlinerdude wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Seems pretty accurate. Believing these airlines are even remotely profitable is ludicrous.


I'll agree that EY and QR are likely not profitable, however to group EK in that bunch is, as you put it, 'ludicrous'.


Emirates has half a trillion in assets on order or on the line. Who finances that? Four hundred thousand million dollars. The same cost as the US military, from a country the size of Portugal. Get real dude. No bank in the world would foot that, which explains why the president of EK is also the president of the UAE's national bank.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
FlyUSAir
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:42 am

As much as I love Delta (for being a US carrier that is) this is a pretty biased, slanted, inaccurate video. To quote our lovely president, "Fake News".
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slinky09
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:42 am

I've always believed that if you have to trash your opposition as a marketing ploy, you have no belief in the value of your own offering. On just how many routes do DL and the ME3 compete again?
 
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PerfectGriffin
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:50 am

So many twisted facts and exaggeration. I like how the video fails to mention how those 500 wide body aircraft on order support hundreds of thousands of jobs at Boeing and Airbus.
 
teriyaki
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:51 am

Turn the sound off and its quite a good aviation video. I wonder if they have the rights to all the video compilations of their videos in there.
 
Airlinerdude
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:54 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Airlinerdude wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Seems pretty accurate. Believing these airlines are even remotely profitable is ludicrous.


I'll agree that EY and QR are likely not profitable, however to group EK in that bunch is, as you put it, 'ludicrous'.


Emirates has half a trillion in assets on order or on the line. Who finances that? Four hundred thousand million dollars. The same cost as the US military, from a country the size of Portugal. Get real dude. No bank in the world would foot that, which explains why the president of EK is also the president of the UAE's national bank.


I presume that if you're making naive statements such as that, you're definitely not aware of the financing vehicles EK uses. Not only has EK previously used many international banks in the past to finance orders, it mostly uses sales and leasebacks to finance a significant amount of their aircraft purchases. A 'staggering' two aircraft are actually owned outright by EK, 103 are on finance leases, and 139 are on operating leases - as per their last financials.
 
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:01 am

I'm an American. I hate propaganda. Sure they are getting money from the government. Who hasn't? You're telling me none of the US3 has received a penny from the govt? Besides, they are trying to play catch up with the other blue chip players out there. You don't see Europe's airlines making videos like this and waging war against the ME3. Man up honestly. AA has more planes that the entire ME3 combined, hell, each of the US3 have more planes that the entire ME3 combined. And the US3 make more money that anyone, anywhere. Bunch of babies.
 
Varsity1
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:06 am

Europe is just sad they woke up too late.

The economics of operating an A380 or 777-300ER are insane. insane insane. Connecting one widebody flight to another, filled (possibly?) with $800 RT worldwide airfares is fantasy land economics. The A380 can burn TWO swimming pools of jet fuel on a single flight, that's not an exaggeration. Engine/APU reserves, phase inspections, insurance, staffing costs..

They are cooking the books and it's so obvious it's painful. These are the ENRON's of the airline world. The difference is ENRON didn't have enough government officials ego's riding on their 'success'.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
Eyad89
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:07 am

Speaking of jobs, how many jobs did the gulf airlines create for Boeing? If those airlines were not allowed to expand as they planned, then how many jobs would Boeing lose?

The bigger question would be:
is the American economy as a whole gaining or losing because of the gulf carriers?
 
Varsity1
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:13 am

Eyad89 wrote:
Speaking of jobs, how many jobs did the gulf airlines create for Boeing? If those airlines were not allowed to expand as they planned, then how many jobs would Boeing lose?

The bigger question would be:
is the American economy as a whole gaining or losing because of the gulf carriers?


The same Boeing that cries against Bombardier for 'subsidized dumping' (with delta ironically). The same Boeing that lobbied against a clearly better product from Airbus/Northrop on the MRTT contract.

Boeing's commercial division is a threat to US interests. The US3 are far bigger economic drivers than Boeing is.
Last edited by Varsity1 on Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
Airlinerdude
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:15 am

Varsity1 wrote:
They are cooking the books and it's so obvious it's painful. These are the ENRON's of the airline world. The difference is ENRON didn't have enough government officials ego's riding on their 'success'.


PwC are EK's auditors, if you know something that they don't, perhaps you should be contacting them about it.
 
Varsity1
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:16 am

Airlinerdude wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
They are cooking the books and it's so obvious it's painful. These are the ENRON's of the airline world. The difference is ENRON didn't have enough government officials ego's riding on their 'success'.


PwC are EK's auditors, if you know something that they don't, perhaps you should be contacting them about it.

:lol: Arthur Andersen ... :lol: :lol: :lol:

*Edit: This reply may have been one of the cleanest T'd up homeruns this board has ever seen.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
B747forever
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:20 am

Huh, so what is next, a video about Norwegian threatening US jobs? The US3 with a locked domestic market and a monopoly on TATL flights with their respective JV partners dont get any sympathy from me.
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Airlinerdude
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:21 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Airlinerdude wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
They are cooking the books and it's so obvious it's painful. These are the ENRON's of the airline world. The difference is ENRON didn't have enough government officials ego's riding on their 'success'.


PwC are EK's auditors, if you know something that they don't, perhaps you should be contacting them about it.

:lol: Arthur Andersen ... :lol: :lol: :lol:

*Edit: This reply may have been one of the cleanest T'd up homeruns this board has ever seen.


You're exactly right - you've stated a precedent for why auditing firms wouldn't dare aid in misrepresenting financials, being as their entire company's reputation would be on the line if they engaged in that activity.
 
VSMUT
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:24 am

danj555 wrote:
I'm an American. I hate propaganda. Sure they are getting money from the government. Who hasn't? You're telling me none of the US3 has received a penny from the govt? Besides, they are trying to play catch up with the other blue chip players out there. You don't see Europe's airlines making videos like this and waging war against the ME3. Man up honestly. AA has more planes that the entire ME3 combined, hell, each of the US3 have more planes that the entire ME3 combined. And the US3 make more money that anyone, anywhere. Bunch of babies.


The ME3 and US3 barely compete either. There is very little overlap between the route networks. The US3 are only faced with a fraction of the exposure to the ME3 that the EU airlines are.
 
rebr
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:38 am

I work at international concourse in Atlanta, and I see Qatar come in, and the plane is almost empty every day

Right.....
 
77H
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:43 am

I think the most telling aspect of the video is the claim that the expansion of the ME3 far outpaces any other market in the world. I get that the ME3 are hubbed in geographically sound area of the world to connect australasia with Europe, Africa and the Americas but geography only plays so much of a role. There are handfuls of airlines that operate from the same markets to another as the ME3 do. So how is it that the ME3 continue at the growth pace they do? Moreover, how can the ME3 offer the onboard hardproduct amenities they do for the prices they sell at.

If I walked into a BMW dealership and was offered a '17 550i for the price of a Ford Fiesta, as a consumer hell yeah I'd take it. If I worked for Ford, or sold Ford's I'd be scratching my head long and hard about how exactly that's possible.

77H
 
danj555
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:15 am

VSMUT wrote:
danj555 wrote:
I'm an American. I hate propaganda. Sure they are getting money from the government. Who hasn't? You're telling me none of the US3 has received a penny from the govt? Besides, they are trying to play catch up with the other blue chip players out there. You don't see Europe's airlines making videos like this and waging war against the ME3. Man up honestly. AA has more planes that the entire ME3 combined, hell, each of the US3 have more planes that the entire ME3 combined. And the US3 make more money that anyone, anywhere. Bunch of babies.


The ME3 and US3 barely compete either. There is very little overlap between the route networks. The US3 are only faced with a fraction of the exposure to the ME3 that the EU airlines are.


Totally agree 100%. Want to fly to Asia? Loads of cheaper faster alternatives. Want to fly to AUS or NZ? Cheaper and faster alternatives. Want to fly to SA? Cant. Want to fly to Euro? Cant. It really only work for people wanting to go to Middle East, Africa, and India. For like 80% of the world there is something better.
 
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77west
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:26 am

I think it is time people start fighting fire with fire, as Trump's advisors put it. I hereby request the Trump government send 150 Billion in real dollars to each of the US3. This will not be a subsidy, but a "legitimate government investment" in the words of Al Baker. Now before anyone flames me, has anything I said been not what QR, EK or EY have said?
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:31 am

Varsity1 wrote:
They are cooking the books and it's so obvious it's painful.


I'm not an accountant or finance guy, but if it's "so obvious" perhaps you can provide details of how and where the books are "cooked"? Would appreciate it, thanks.

Varsity1 wrote:
The A380 can burn TWO swimming pools of jet fuel on a single flight, that's not an exaggeration.


Is that a new ISO unit for fuel consumption? :rotfl:

Just like the US3's claims, your endless railing against the ME3 (and Norwegian) lacks credibility or any foundation in fact.
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PerfectGriffin
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:42 am

77H wrote:
If I walked into a BMW dealership and was offered a '17 550i for the price of a Ford Fiesta, as a consumer hell yeah I'd take it. If I worked for Ford, or sold Ford's I'd be scratching my head long and hard about how exactly that's possible.

77H


This is a silly comparison. ME3 pricing isn't even that much cheaper than the competition. And EK in particular is hardly ever the cheapest nowadays. QR's premium fares can be cheap but even then, they aren't as low priced as many people on airliners.net make them out to be.
 
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:53 am

OMG.

This is pathetic. This is beyond beyonds.. It's almost sad. It's that 1950s McCarthyism American propaganda tone that makes it truly pathetic...that "us(the good guys) against them (the bad guys)"...the rhetoric about the lost jobs, about "stealing" their routes and about "invading" their market. And they are clearly fuelling the "foreign fear/mistrust element" to substantiate their claim. Reminds me of what a Mr Trump is doing at the moment....
And, what exactly does the size of these countries (the video says "..the size of South Carolina"..) have to do with the issue?
I'd like to tell the guys at DL to grow a bit mature get out of their all-American protectionist bubble.

I normally really like DL but this is ridiculous.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:14 am

danj555 wrote:
Besides, they are trying to play catch up with the other blue chip players out there.

Catch up in what regard?



B747forever wrote:
and a monopoly on TATL flights with their respective JV partners

Seems you don't understand what the word "monopoly" actually means... at all.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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777GE90
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:41 am

Airlinerdude wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Airlinerdude wrote:

I'll agree that EY and QR are likely not profitable, however to group EK in that bunch is, as you put it, 'ludicrous'.


Emirates has half a trillion in assets on order or on the line. Who finances that? Four hundred thousand million dollars. The same cost as the US military, from a country the size of Portugal. Get real dude. No bank in the world would foot that, which explains why the president of EK is also the president of the UAE's national bank.


I presume that if you're making naive statements such as that, you're definitely not aware of the financing vehicles EK uses. Not only has EK previously used many international banks in the past to finance orders, it mostly uses sales and leasebacks to finance a significant amount of their aircraft purchases. A 'staggering' two aircraft are actually owned outright by EK, 103 are on finance leases, and 139 are on operating leases - as per their last financials.


EK owns only 2 of it's aircraft? Source?
Image
 
Arion640
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:51 am

How childish and paethetic of these lot. Throwing the toys out the pram. EU3 get hit a lot more by the ME3 than the US3 and IAG aren't winging.

Like i've said on another threads, the vast majority of the flying public don't care if the ME3 are subsidised. A lot of people in the UK think a lot of Emirates.
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:52 am

How to the US3 explain why the yields on domestic routes where there is no international competition is many times higher than international routes ?

The US3 have the protected domestic market that they use to fund unprofitable capacity on international routes.

And please to the person who thinks the ME3 buy their aircraft, they have been leasing them for ages, they are paid for out of cash flow, so is the fuel and maintenance. Airlines are high cash flow low margin businesses. If you want to know how they pay for their leases, look at the amount of cash they turn over.
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zeke
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:56 am

777GE90 wrote:
EK owns only 2 of it's aircraft? Source?


Page 98 of the annual report https://cdn.ek.aero/downloads/ek/pdfs/r ... t_2017.pdf
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workhorse
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:02 am

As far as I am concerned, this video was waste of money. I was already convinced hard enough to not fly on Delta ever again. :)
 
tmoney
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:17 am

I'll play devils advocate and say ME3 gets gov subsidies. But then somebody please educate me on which market ME3 is hitting US3?

Seriously, TATL; S.America; west coast-Oceania/Asia have almost complete monopoly by US3 and their alliance partners.

Wouldn't DL make a more useful ad going after Norweigian, WOW, XL and the like?

Unless DL is vying for low-yield roads like BOM, REP, HYD etc
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scbriml
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:19 am

777GE90 wrote:
EK owns only 2 of it's aircraft? Source?


Emirates annual report.
Image
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:40 am

PerfectGriffin wrote:
77H wrote:
If I walked into a BMW dealership and was offered a '17 550i for the price of a Ford Fiesta, as a consumer hell yeah I'd take it. If I worked for Ford, or sold Ford's I'd be scratching my head long and hard about how exactly that's possible.

77H


This is a silly comparison. ME3 pricing isn't even that much cheaper than the competition. And EK in particular is hardly ever the cheapest nowadays. QR's premium fares can be cheap but even then, they aren't as low priced as many people on airliners.net make them out to be.


Indeed. I've only used EK one time, about a decade ago, precisely because they were early in their growth stage and trying to grab market share by offering cheap fares.

Since then they've been completely off my radar - even direct flights on SQ have been cheaper for us!

What's happened is that they've established their brand and reputation and are now leveraging *that*, not cheap fares.So - ironically for 77H - in fact many ME3 customers are walking into the Ford dealer to buy the Fiesta they want while ignoring that cut-price BMW.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
QueenoftheSkies
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:43 am

Haters gonna hate! Seriously beyond petty for Delta to do this. Especially given their track record, um hello ch.11 bankruptcy. How soon we forget!
 
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OA940
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:46 am

I'm getting a technical difficulties page lmao
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:49 am

QueenoftheSkies wrote:
Haters gonna hate! Seriously beyond petty for Delta to do this. Especially given their track record, um hello ch.11 bankruptcy. How soon we forget!



Exactly
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777GE90
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:47 am

zeke wrote:
777GE90 wrote:
EK owns only 2 of it's aircraft? Source?


Page 98 of the annual report https://cdn.ek.aero/downloads/ek/pdfs/r ... t_2017.pdf


scbriml wrote:
777GE90 wrote:
EK owns only 2 of it's aircraft? Source?


Emirates annual report.
Image


Ha, thanks guys. Never thought their situation would be so bad. I remember every time someone shows a picture of that leased 737 (from PIA) saying this is what Emirates started as and this is what it became, whilst PIA has never really changed, this truly shows that neither has Emirates.

Reminds me of the car financing racket we have over here in the UK.

I'm used to looking at planespotters.net and see "ok EK have some aircraft leased, but these other ones without remarks must be theirs". Didn't even consider they could be financed by banks.
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Alias1024
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:53 am

I'm surprised so many on here lack the strategic sense to see that the US3 aren't really very concerned about the US-Middle East market. They're VERY concerned the ME3 will trash trans-Atlantic yields with fifth freedom flights from Europe to the US. They're trying to get ahead of the threat instead of waiting until it's too late.
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whatThe
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:05 pm

Not really taking an opinion, but adding some figures from Emirates's and Qatar's latest financial reports where a subsidy (meaning the owner/government putting in money) would most likely show up... Etihad does not provide any statements.

In each of the last two years Emirates has paid out AED2.1bln in dividends to its shareholder (that's about $571mm). This is from their cash flow statement (negative numbers mean outflows in case you aren't familiar with how to read them).

Image

Qatar on the other hand has received capital contributions from its shareholder in each of the last two years. They contributed about $1.2bln in 2016 and about $2.1bln in 2015. Note however that they were profitable in both years (barely) according to their income statement, but had been investing heavily to acquire planes and other things, not always with loans to finance them.

Image

The video makes an interesting point that these are essentially one arm of broader conglomerates. If Dubai's goal is to be a business and trade hub for the region (which it seems to be) then from a conglomerate standpoint, they might be willing to take a loss on the airline to make profits elsewhere (the rest of Dubai, inc). From a retail perspective, it's like Black Friday door busters where the retailer loses money on the items on sale, but wants to get the customer in the store to buy other things where they make it all back, and then some. However the US (and most other airlines) operate on a standalone basis where flying people (and cargo) from A --> B is their sole line of business.

Another interesting comparison might be Uber. They lose money left and right, but there are equity investors willing to subsidize those losses in the near-term with new equity investments in the hopes of long-term profitability. Meanwhile they put other business (taxis) out of business. Food for thought.

Some figures on Delta to close out for comparison and reference. They've been increasingly paying out more to investors, paying out $1.3bln in 2014, $2.6bln in 2015, and $3.1bln in 2016 in the form of dividends and stock repurchases.
 
gunnerman
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:22 pm

The fact is that many airlines get help in all sorts of ways. The ME3 carriers get big government support, but look at what has happened in the US. Delta bought Northwest which was rescued thanks to chapter 11. Delta itself was rescued thanks to chapter 11. Delta is being quite one-eyed about ME3 support.
 
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:56 pm

777GE90 wrote:
Never thought their situation would be so bad.


Help me understand why you think leasing most of their fleet puts EK in a "bad situation"?
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777GE90
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:06 pm

scbriml wrote:
777GE90 wrote:
Never thought their situation would be so bad.


Help me understand why you think leasing most of their fleet puts EK in a "bad situation"?


Well simply, they are not as well off as I thought they were. I always had the impression EK paid for most of it's fleet outright. As I mentioned in my previous post, I don't see them as much of a different airline as now compared to before. They just have wealthy backers and rightly so.
Last edited by 777GE90 on Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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GSPSPOT
Posts: 2489
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:08 pm

DL is behaving like the Donald Trump of the airline industry. Here's a novel idea.... How about they stop poking the hornets nest and just go about the business of being the best airline they can be?
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777GE90
Posts: 121
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:12 pm

GSPSPOT wrote:
DL is behaving like the Donald Trump of the airline industry. Here's a novel idea.... How about they stop poking the hornets nest and just go about the business of being the best airline they can be?


Agreed to be honest, DL is not a government organisation. They should stop being so childish and getting involved in what is not their business. If there are competition problems, that is a government issue, not Delta's. By all means file a complaint but that's where they should stop and carry on and focus on running their airline. Maybe spend the money on a proper advert instead of a hate campaign?

This video is just as bad as some of the videos the ME3 have posted in the past.
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scbriml
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:17 pm

777GE90 wrote:
Well simply, they are not as well off as I thought they were. I always had the impression EK paid for most of it's fleet outright.


It doesn't make a huge amount of sense to tie up $billions of capital when you can effectively use someone else's money to finance your planes, especially given EK's fleet roll-over strategy. Many airlines around the World do exactly the same.

I don't see it makes very much difference, but it does explain to some of the EK bashers how they can afford "trillions" worth of planes.
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VS11
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:24 pm

The video for sure is very effective. But it does fail to provide substantive arguments. What is it exactly that DL is complaining about? That the ME3 carriers have unrestricted access to the US? If so, what are they proposing? If you limit the Open Skies with the UAE, why don't you limit it with the EU? Where do you draw the line?

If DL is complaining about government assistance, assuming there is some, did DL complain about Alitalia?

DL is giving an example with Air Canada (and I remember the heated debates here when Canada was negotiating their bi-lateral with the UAE) but what would have been Canada's position if EK were buying hundreds of Bombardier's jets. DL claims that airline jobs are at stake. This is probably true but the jobs gained at Boeing or Airbus are probably better paid and have a deeper and wider economic overall impact.

DL wants to fly to India but if the protectionist argument prevails, there won't be that many US-based Indians to fly to India. You can't have it both ways.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:25 pm

Airlinerdude wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
They are cooking the books and it's so obvious it's painful. These are the ENRON's of the airline world. The difference is ENRON didn't have enough government officials ego's riding on their 'success'.


PwC are EK's auditors, if you know something that they don't, perhaps you should be contacting them about it.


I am sure they are aware, but here you go.

https://youtu.be/nlilRHAifgQ?t=104
 
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777GE90
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Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:26 pm

scbriml wrote:
777GE90 wrote:
Well simply, they are not as well off as I thought they were. I always had the impression EK paid for most of it's fleet outright.


It doesn't make a huge amount of sense to tie up $billions of capital when you can effectively use someone else's money to finance your planes, especially given EK's fleet roll-over strategy. Many airlines around the World do exactly the same.

I don't see it makes very much difference, but it does explain to some of the EK bashers how they can afford "trillions" worth of planes.


Well you clearly don't know who I am if you think I am a "EK basher" (have you seen my signature :)). I fly EK regularly and absolutely love the airline, infact at one point I thought it was the best airline in the world. I fly QR more these days (as they have risen above slightly in terms of service / product) but I still love flying on EK too.

However, that doesn't affect my judgement of the airline and I don't take sides blindly. I'm open to look at the pitfalls and criticize any airline, including ones I like.

I understand your point, it may be smarter to lease / finance rather than buy outright (especially if you want to keep a young fleet and minimize risk) but the fact still remains, they don't own them. So it is a worse position than I expected them to have. Obviously if they actually owned the aircraft then that would make the airline a lot more attractive in terms of assets on their balance sheet.
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