Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
TerminalD
Posts: 363
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:32 pm

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:31 pm

Airlinerdude wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Airlinerdude wrote:

I'll agree that EY and QR are likely not profitable, however to group EK in that bunch is, as you put it, 'ludicrous'.


Emirates has half a trillion in assets on order or on the line. Who finances that? Four hundred thousand million dollars. The same cost as the US military, from a country the size of Portugal. Get real dude. No bank in the world would foot that, which explains why the president of EK is also the president of the UAE's national bank.


I presume that if you're making naive statements such as that, you're definitely not aware of the financing vehicles EK uses. Not only has EK previously used many international banks in the past to finance orders, it mostly uses sales and leasebacks to finance a significant amount of their aircraft purchases. A 'staggering' two aircraft are actually owned outright by EK, 103 are on finance leases, and 139 are on operating leases - as per their last financials.

With the exception of two routes, they are flying back and forth to their own countries. They have the unlimited right to do that. End of story. ATH is barely served from the USA and Greece wanted them to fly the route. End of story. AZ shut their MXP hub and invited EK to fly the route. End of story. The U.S. does not have the unilateral right to decide what airlines fly what routes. Other countries have some say over routes to their own countries.

Over 50% of the world's ASM/ASKs are operated by airlines with full or partial government ownership including several SkyTeam partners of DL.
Last edited by TerminalD on Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1868
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:33 pm

777GE90 wrote:
Ha, thanks guys. Never thought their situation would be so bad.


I also don't understand what's bad... they have plenty of cash and make a big profit. In fact it makes them more flexible - if they need to make big changes to their fleet they're in a better position than if they owned everything.

777GE90 wrote:
Reminds me of the car financing racket we have over here in the UK.


As long as you're not being hoodwinked I don't see the problem. Soon after moving here all our money was in overseas accounts, so I took advantage of financing to purchase a new car. With half paid up front, and a bit of haggling with the dealer, we managed to get financing for the rest at a very low rate. Then after a few months, we paid that off too. I believe we only lost a couple of hundred for the convenience of getting the car we wanted when we wanted it. Just have to negotiate and consider the terms and conditions very carefully - which I'm certain EK do...
Last edited by SomebodyInTLS on Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
User avatar
jnev3289
Posts: 636
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:45 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:35 pm

On top of all the great points made, the thing that gets me is that AA is a cozy partner with Qatar and sells tickets on Etihad, while United is in an alliance with Turkish, and Delta has Saudia (And the biggest subsidy hog of them all, Alitalia) in their alliance...
 
User avatar
777GE90
Posts: 132
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:26 pm

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:41 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
777GE90 wrote:
Ha, thanks guys. Never thought their situation would be so bad.


I also don't understand what's bad... they have plenty of cash and make a big profit. In fact it makes them more flexible - if they need to make big changes to their fleet they're in a better position than if they owned everything.

777GE90 wrote:
Reminds me of the car financing racket we have over here in the UK.


As long as you're not being hoodwinked I don't see the problem. Soon after moving here all our money was in overseas accounts, so I took advantage of financing to purchase a new car. With half paid up front, and a bit of haggling with the dealer, we managed to get financing for the rest at a very low rate. Then after a few months, we paid that off too. I believe we only lost a couple of hundred for the convenience of getting the car we wanted when we wanted it. Just have to negotiate and consider the terms and conditions very carefully - which I'm certain EK do...


Check my other post on your first point.

For your second point, your not really the type of person that comes to mind when I think of the financing racket. You have a genuine need and you took advantage of it properly, the problem is the majority of people use financing to buy cars they can't afford and at the end of the agreement, they give the car back and finance another one they can't afford. It's a building bubble and it will only take a squeeze in the economy before those people realise they can no longer keep up repayments and start returning cars in the masses. I don't even need to mention the troubles that will cause. If you have big airlines like EK leasing out huge aircraft in the billions, imagine how big of a blow it would be if that airline was to die? It's not a nice situation for the world economy.

But anyway, we digress, lets talk planes :).
Last edited by 777GE90 on Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
 
VS11
Posts: 1673
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:34 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:42 pm

777GE90 wrote:
I understand your point, it may be smarter to lease / finance rather than buy outright (especially if you want to keep a young fleet and minimize risk) but the fact still remains, they don't own them. So it is a worse position than I expected them to have. Obviously if they actually owned the aircraft then that would make the airline a lot more attractive in terms of assets on their balance sheet.


Leasing assets/equipment instead of owning them is an extremely common situation in any industry, not just airlines. Corporate finance textbooks focus extensively on how to make those decisions. EK is not an outlier here. Their position is not worse at all. In fact, it allows them to return the aircraft if they don't need them - good risk management.
 
User avatar
777GE90
Posts: 132
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:26 pm

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:46 pm

VS11 wrote:
777GE90 wrote:
I understand your point, it may be smarter to lease / finance rather than buy outright (especially if you want to keep a young fleet and minimize risk) but the fact still remains, they don't own them. So it is a worse position than I expected them to have. Obviously if they actually owned the aircraft then that would make the airline a lot more attractive in terms of assets on their balance sheet.


Leasing assets/equipment instead of owning them is an extremely common situation in any industry, not just airlines. Corporate finance textbooks focus extensively on how to make those decisions. EK is not an outlier here. Their position is not worse at all. In fact, it allows them to return the aircraft if they don't need them - good risk management.


How does other airlines compare? BA? Delta? United? Would be interesting to see figures from other airlines too.

It may be good risk management and useful for EK, but at who's expense? EK is clearly pushing the boundaries with their fleet and I have always doubted how they can sustain their progress ever since they made that huge A380 order.
Last edited by 777GE90 on Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
 
TerminalD
Posts: 363
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:32 pm

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:47 pm

Speaking of breaking the law, the video does not have subtitles as required by the Americans with Disabilities Act which requires all videos online from U.S. public transportation company websites to provide subtitles for the hearing impaired.

http://www.3playmedia.com/2015/02/17/le ... -cvaa-fcc/
 
User avatar
jnev3289
Posts: 636
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:45 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:53 pm

Can't wait for the one on Air Berlin, Alitalia, and every Chinese airline, anyone know when that one is coming out?
 
TonyBurr
Posts: 1107
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:00 pm

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:23 pm

I just finished four segments on QATAR PHL-DOH-BKK-DOH-PHL in J. It has to be the best J experience I have ever had. I am sick and tired of the US airlines complaining about the ME3. If the US airlines EVER produces a hard/soft product or service by FA and staff, Lounges, etc that QR did, then complain,. Just because the US legacy's offer such a horrible product, don't complain about the ME3. Fix your own product (if you can).
 
jeffrey1970
Posts: 1481
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2001 1:41 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:25 pm

I think over all it was smart of Delta to make this video. It likely will not have a huge effect, but overall it could encourage Delta passengers to stick with Delta, and stay away from the ME3. I think that the best thing that Delta can do keep giving people a great customer experience from the beginning when they make their reservations until the end when they step off the airplane and collect their luggage.
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
sovietjet
Posts: 2686
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2003 12:32 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:27 pm

I also can't help but think the ME3 are getting subsidies either directly or indirectly. Don't ask me to "prove it", because do you really think if that is happening they would release any "proof"? Let's get real. The fact is that they really do have an extraordinary amount of large aircraft and routes that make no sense. Seattle to Dubai? Who the hell flies on that? But anyway, I will give the ME3 the benefit of a doubt. On the other hand, the US3 deserve this. They absolutely suck. United is so terrible, I cringe every time I have to fly them international. American isn't much better. As for Delta, I reserve judgement because I haven't flown them but I imagine it isn't much better. The terrible customer service, the constant nickel and diming, the crabby FAs, all of that leads to a bad experience. The onboard amenities can't match what the European or Asian airlines have to offer, let alone the ME3. They might have some right to cry about unfair competition, but on the other hand they have a lot to improve on to match what others offer. I hope the ME3 really do put the knife to the throat of the US3, maybe it will wake them up and make them realize what crap product they offer and that is why people avoid them. If not, then I hope United is the first to fail. Terrible airline.
 
User avatar
jnev3289
Posts: 636
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:45 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:31 pm

jeffrey1970 wrote:
I think over all it was smart of Delta to make this video. It likely will not have a huge effect, but overall it could encourage Delta passengers to stick with Delta, and stay away from the ME3. I think that the best thing that Delta can do keep giving people a great customer experience from the beginning when they make their reservations until the end when they step off the airplane and collect their luggage.

Yep, nothing says "great" like a flight on the MD80/90 or B717. That's treating customers right!*

*Unless there's weather and it takes an entire work week to reaccommodate everyone
 
jeffrey1970
Posts: 1481
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2001 1:41 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:44 pm

jnev3289 wrote:
jeffrey1970 wrote:
I think over all it was smart of Delta to make this video. It likely will not have a huge effect, but overall it could encourage Delta passengers to stick with Delta, and stay away from the ME3. I think that the best thing that Delta can do keep giving people a great customer experience from the beginning when they make their reservations until the end when they step off the airplane and collect their luggage.

Yep, nothing says "great" like a flight on the MD80/90 or B717. That's treating customers right!*

*Unless there's weather and it takes an entire work week to reaccommodate everyone


I do not mind an MD-80/90. I can't say anything about the 717 because I have never flown on it. It has been a while since I have flown on Delta, but last time I flew on them was when I flew to Alaska. I enjoyed the flight. I would like to try Alaska airlines though. I also had a wonderful experience a couple of months ago when I flew to Miami on American.
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
RightRudder
Posts: 166
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:04 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:44 pm

This video is humbling. The U.S. airlines need to take a good look at themselves. To what extent must the "necessary and proper clause" be enforce by Congress? There is a definite unfair Anti-Trust issue here. Yet, at what point is the civilian transport of the military still used for the "intent and purpose" that it was originally made out to be? Because if the airline industry is strictly transporting troops for commerce gain, then it is not competitive in nature and not for the defense of the country.
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana".
 
dmstorm22
Posts: 623
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:53 pm

30 seconds in, Ed Bastian says "they've [taken over the market] in Asia, done it in Europe, done it in Australia, and the next stop for [the ME3] is to do it in the US." Even if they are being propped-up by their government, how exactly are they going to do it in the US?

Unless there is some fear that somehow the ME3 is going to start flying domestic routes, isn't this mostly a smokescreen.

Are they going to waste valuable EU slots flying 2x/day TATL flights? The US is the one market that from an O&D perspective is quite well insulated from the ME3, apart from South Asia and some more budget-conscious US-Africa & US-Asia passengers - markets that the US3 don't really serve directly anyway.

Sure, Delta may be terrified on the impact the ME3 is having on its JV partners, but Delta itself is well positioned. Maybe they're losing VFR Indian passengers that they would feed through CDG/AMS to the ME3, but UA (and even moreso AI) have shown overflying the ME3 is an option.

This was a ridiculous video highlighting a, as of now, baseless claim. Very surprised DL would stoop to this.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:57 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Airlinerdude wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Seems pretty accurate. Believing these airlines are even remotely profitable is ludicrous.


I'll agree that EY and QR are likely not profitable, however to group EK in that bunch is, as you put it, 'ludicrous'.


Emirates has half a trillion in assets on order or on the line. Who finances that? Four hundred thousand million dollars. The same cost as the US military, from a country the size of Portugal. Get real dude. No bank in the world would foot that, which explains why the president of EK is also the president of the UAE's national bank.


very well said. Its preposterous to think otherwise. Please POTUS, if Canada could do it, so can you.

Ed Bastian said that if nothing is done about it than it is very likely that one of the big US3 will not be around. I wonder which one it will be?
 
User avatar
IrishAyes
Posts: 2435
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:04 pm

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:58 pm

Unfortunately, a lot of salient details are missing in this video.

Perfect example: blaming Air Frances' problems on the Gulf carriers is just wrong. Sure, the Gulf airlines don't HELP Air France, but its problems started long before the ME3 grew. Noticeably, the emphasis was heavy on AF rather than KL.

Qantas is also profitable again.

Canada has been proactive about limiting Gulf carrier growth simply because that's Canada's MO. They've done it to tons of other airlines and countries in the past (SQ anyone?)

Just one of many flagrant things missing in this story.
 
danj555
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:16 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:03 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
danj555 wrote:
Besides, they are trying to play catch up with the other blue chip players out there.

Catch up in what regard?



B747forever wrote:
and a monopoly on TATL flights with their respective JV partners

Seems you don't understand what the word "monopoly" actually means... at all.


Ayyy a post of mine doesn't go by without your notice.... *rolls eyes* hahah

But yea, catch up like getting destinations up and ac count up with the other major airlines, US3, British Air, Lufthansa, etc

I made another post, but there isn't really much network overlap between US3 and ME3. I doubt the US3 are complaining on behalf of another alliance airline... I just don't see why they are whining like no one else.
 
JayWings
Posts: 91
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:26 pm

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:07 pm

I just had to chuckle when they talked about poor Qantas getting backed into a corner and essentially turned into a regional feeder for the ME3.

So basically exactly what DL tried to do to AS 5 years ago in Seattle?

:stirthepot: :stirthepot: :stirthepot:
 
User avatar
spinotter
Posts: 803
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:14 pm

GSPSPOT wrote:
DL is behaving like the Donald Trump of the airline industry. Here's a novel idea.... How about they stop poking the hornets nest and just go about the business of being the best airline they can be?


I agree wholeheartedly and was about to post the same thought - Delta is using the perceived threat from that part of the world to maximize the dislike and fear that Trump has done so much to foment.
 
juliuswong
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:14 pm

I think US3 really need to wake up and smell the coffee. They REALLY need to provide proof, fact and figures, charts or whatever to make a substantive argument. It is too bad that your company can't afford 120 A380 and 135 B77W at same time, because others are better at providing better hard and soft products and they are smarter and have better financial acumen in not purchasing their fleet outright (thus leading to more cash outflow) and have taken lease instead. By the way, owning fleet outright is not a measurement how rich or poor your organisation is. Now, US3 please go fly kite far far away.........
Last edited by juliuswong on Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
winginit
Posts: 3051
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:16 pm

I'll set aside my feelings on the general tone of the video, but does anyone really doubt that either the ME3 or the US3 have and are receiving government subsidies be they direct capital injections or waived/discounted landing fees for new routes? If you believe that, and you should, shouldn't the Open Skies agreement be reviewed as any and all subsidies are in direct violation of the Open Skies language?

The governments should open it up for review, hash this issue out, and make an assessment. End this argument.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:17 pm

The Chinese and Canada stood there ground, which is probably why Emirates didn't put up a fight with the Chinese when several of their planes violated Chinese airspace rules. Time for the U.S.A. to fall in line behind China and Canada before its to late. Wake up people. The #'s just don't add up and shame on Jennifer Aniston for selling herself out to the devil; I will no longer watch anything that has her name in it.
 
N212R
Posts: 333
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:18 pm

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:19 pm

And by their fruits you shall know them. Did the story first break on CNN?
 
flyingcat
Posts: 530
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 10:33 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:28 pm

TerminalD wrote:
Speaking of breaking the law, the video does not have subtitles as required by the Americans with Disabilities Act which requires all videos online from U.S. public transportation company websites to provide subtitles for the hearing impaired.

http://www.3playmedia.com/2015/02/17/le ... -cvaa-fcc/



"If your video content never airs on TV, this law doesn’t apply to you"

Sounds like they are fine.
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8358
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:31 pm

The irony of all ironies is that Delta says nothing about the airlines with the biggest global subsidies - Air China, China Eastern and China Southern. These three airlines are totally distorting the Asia North American market.

DL says nothing as they want a piece of that pie. In China, US carriers have a product perception advantage over the ME3.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 2549
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:32 pm

Does the ME3 have EAS which the US3 love to use? What about when the airlines were bankrupt?What about the millions of dollars they get from local cities each time the launch a long haul flight? Its the pot calling the kettle black. The ME3 is just more blatant. Almost every government helps their airlines.
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2238
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:34 pm

juliuswong wrote:
I think US3 really need to wake up and smell the coffee. They REALLY need to provide proof, fact and figures, charts or whatever to make a substantive argument. It is too bad that your company can't afford 120 A380 and 135 B77W at same time, because others are better at providing better hard and soft products and they are smarter and have better financial acumen in not purchasing their fleet outright (thus leading to more cash outflow) and have taken lease instead. By the way, owning fleet outright is not a measurement how rich or poor your organisation is. Now, US3 please go fly kite far far away.........


The Me3 are flying clubs built on the egos of middle eastern royalty. They have no intentions of making money. Delta is a business. It makes money.

The Me3 have overstepped their welcome. Time to kick them to the curb like Canada and China.
 
User avatar
jnev3289
Posts: 636
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:45 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:40 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
I think US3 really need to wake up and smell the coffee. They REALLY need to provide proof, fact and figures, charts or whatever to make a substantive argument. It is too bad that your company can't afford 120 A380 and 135 B77W at same time, because others are better at providing better hard and soft products and they are smarter and have better financial acumen in not purchasing their fleet outright (thus leading to more cash outflow) and have taken lease instead. By the way, owning fleet outright is not a measurement how rich or poor your organisation is. Now, US3 please go fly kite far far away.........


The Me3 are flying clubs built on the egos of middle eastern royalty. They have no intentions of making money. Delta is a business. It makes money.

The Me3 have overstepped their welcome. Time to kick them to the curb like Canada and China.

Solid, fact-based argument there. :roll:
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 2549
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:48 pm

jnev3289 wrote:
On top of all the great points made, the thing that gets me is that AA is a cozy partner with Qatar and sells tickets on Etihad, while United is in an alliance with Turkish, and Delta has Saudia (And the biggest subsidy hog of them all, Alitalia) in their alliance...

Don't forget about AA and RJ, commonly overlooked Middle Eastern airline. In fact, they are the ones that steal most of the US3's flights as they ship people to Europe via Amman.
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
aeropix
Posts: 272
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:08 pm

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:49 pm

Well, my POV after watching the video is, if DL keeps claiming that the M.E. carriers are stealing all their traffic, why not start their own flights from the USA to India, Dubai, Doha, and Abu Dhabi?

There is almost no route overlap between Delta and Emirates, and the argument that the M.E. carriers are somehow stealing the traffic from them is therefore ludicrous. The fact is that all airlines are geographically limited to a certain market catchment, and for example the Middle Eastern carriers will never take passengers from New York to South America, Europe to Hawaii, Japan to the USA etc.

The few routes that DL has chosen to delete i.e. USA->India is much more about their joint venture with KLM than any competition from the Middle East, and I see this as a smokescreen for them to continue to export US Jobs to their European and Asian Alliance partners while also deflecting the employee anger for the job losses from the Delta Management who willingly give away the prime flying to KLM and Korean through the consumer fraud called airline alliances and trying to blame it all on some far away company that has nothing to do with the Management decision to outsource.

If I were a Delta employee I'd be outraged at the Delta management for outsourcing my Job to overseas alliance partners rather than some mythical evil empire a half world away. This whole ME3 kerfuffle is just a hoax to distract the employees from the far more pervasive evil practice of outsourcing all the long haul flying to SkyTeam partners under the guise of "economic synergies".

So, will they be screening the new movie "Despicable ME3" with Hitler-esque voice-overs to gin up even more unrest?
Last edited by aeropix on Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
AirbusCanada
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:14 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:01 pm

777GE90 wrote:
Airlinerdude wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

Emirates has half a trillion in assets on order or on the line. Who finances that? Four hundred thousand million dollars. The same cost as the US military, from a country the size of Portugal. Get real dude. No bank in the world would foot that, which explains why the president of EK is also the president of the UAE's national bank.


I presume that if you're making naive statements such as that, you're definitely not aware of the financing vehicles EK uses. Not only has EK previously used many international banks in the past to finance orders, it mostly uses sales and leasebacks to finance a significant amount of their aircraft purchases. A 'staggering' two aircraft are actually owned outright by EK, 103 are on finance leases, and 139 are on operating leases - as per their last financials.


EK owns only 2 of it's aircraft? Source?


The source is already in the text. Are you that delusional that you are attacking without reading them!!!!
 
dmstorm22
Posts: 623
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:08 pm

Had to watch it in two parts. Just reached where Delta is expressing sadness that they don't fly to India. They stopped their two US-BOM fligts in 2008 (JFK) and 2009 (ALT). At that point the ME3 was tiny in the US. Those flights were not stopped because of ME3 competition. This is just wrong.

Also, if you want to fly to India. Then fly there. UA, for all its problems, has made it work to DEL and BOM. DL, you have a hub in JFK. Launch JFK-BOM if you care about India so much.
 
User avatar
gatibosgru
Posts: 1775
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:48 pm

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:14 pm

I love me some Delta, but that was cringe worthy.
@DadCelo
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8475
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:32 pm

VS11 wrote:
Leasing asset/equipment instead of owning them is an extremely common situation in any industry, not just airlines. Corporate finance textbooks focus extensively on how to make those decisions. EK is not an outlier here. Their position is not worse at all. In fact, it allows them to return the aircraft if they don't need them - good risk management.


Funds outflow for lease and finance is same for first 12 years, in one case you return the frame to the owner and in another case you get the lien released.

If you have good maintenance plan owning frames is always better in the long run for standard builds,

But with paid pundits drumming up leasing is the greatest thing ever happened in aviation, everyone has to jump on the bandwagon.

Interiors need to refurbished every six years, with a leased plane you are in a conundrum, pay to refurbish someone else plane or live with dirty/broken interiors. You also pay interior condition penalty at lease end.

EK lease costs went up by 30% YoY. Could be bigger planes replacing smaller planes, or lessors charging more for B77W with tanked resale value and A380s with no secondary market.

In 2016 EK took 32?? frames but was able to flip only 7.
All posts are just opinions.
 
User avatar
yowza
Posts: 4508
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:01 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:38 pm

If the intent was for this to go viral and get the message pushed far and wide then this video is a disaster. Very few people not interested in aviation are going to endure a 15 minute long video.

I think one thing the video should have included but didn't was a mention of how these carriers are instruments of the state first and businesses second. Just look at what the UAE and Saudi is doing to inflict pain on QR. If the UAE is willing to violate the terms of air treaties it has signed why should anyone grant UAE carriers carte blanche?

YOWza
 
VTORD
Posts: 748
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:38 pm

dmstorm22 wrote:
Had to watch it in two parts. Just reached where Delta is expressing sadness that they don't fly to India. They stopped their two US-BOM fligts in 2008 (JFK) and 2009 (ALT). At that point the ME3 was tiny in the US. Those flights were not stopped because of ME3 competition. This is just wrong.

Also, if you want to fly to India. Then fly there. UA, for all its problems, has made it work to DEL and BOM. DL, you have a hub in JFK. Launch JFK-BOM if you care about India so much.


+1.
I can speak from personal experience flying both EK as well as DL to India that EK product as well as service was much much better than DL's. Yes it was 10-abreast in EK but I am not a big guy so I was fine. I had a complaint about my IFE problems on one leg, and my email elicited a detailed explanation of the problem and corrective actions taken from EK!

Also I find the correlation of 1 Flight cancelled = 1500 jobs lost a bit unbelievable and the comment about "offshoring" US Aviation has to be the hyperbole of the year!
 
TerminalD
Posts: 363
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:32 pm

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:49 pm

flyingcat wrote:
TerminalD wrote:
Speaking of breaking the law, the video does not have subtitles as required by the Americans with Disabilities Act which requires all videos online from U.S. public transportation company websites to provide subtitles for the hearing impaired.

http://www.3playmedia.com/2015/02/17/le ... -cvaa-fcc/



"If your video content never airs on TV, this law doesn’t apply to you"

Sounds like they are fine.

I see you didn't read the article at all. That's the 21st Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act (CVAA). I'm talking about the ADA.

While the ADA doesn’t specifically address online video (it was written in 1990, after all), legal precedent set by a 2012 law suit categorized Netflix, a purely virtual business, as a ‘place of public accommodation’ and therefore required video captioning.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10091
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:02 pm

Flew US carriers international (UA) and domestic (UA, DL and WN) earlier this year.

No problems, except WN when I got pain in the ears every time.

However, if ME3 are providing a better product, then perhaps the US3 need to address this.
 
User avatar
PerfectGriffin
Posts: 539
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:35 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:24 pm

IrishAyes wrote:

Canada has been proactive about limiting Gulf carrier growth simply because that's Canada's MO. They've done it to tons of other airlines and countries in the past (SQ anyone?)

Just one of many flagrant things missing in this story.


Canada'a protectionist policies is a reason why AC and Westjet can get away with high fares on many routes. We need more competition in our market.
 
chiki
Posts: 370
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:32 pm

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:00 pm

I like the guy who says the flights are nearly empty, this is like a Zanu PF propaganda video and putting staff in it is so low. I don't care about subsidies as long as i get a cheap ticket i am ok. whether its a 17.5 in Boeing or 18 in airbus. I want to get from A to B cheaply and safely.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2630
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:02 pm

danj555 wrote:
I'm an American. I hate propaganda. Sure they are getting money from the government. Who hasn't? You're telling me none of the US3 has received a penny from the govt?


American taxpayers' money is given to US airlines every day. It's called the EAS program. Are Delta and the Delta Connection carriers going to stop accepting EAS payments and call for an end to the EAS program? Or are they going to continue their hypocrisy of protesting subsidies for other airlines while taking subsidies themselves?
 
User avatar
lesfalls
Posts: 3380
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:08 pm

JayWings wrote:
I just had to chuckle when they talked about poor Qantas getting backed into a corner and essentially turned into a regional feeder for the ME3.

So basically exactly what DL tried to do to AS 5 years ago in Seattle?

:stirthepot: :stirthepot: :stirthepot:

And I find it funny that they talk about Qantas as they are in bed with EK :lol:
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
tu154m
Posts: 613
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 4:52 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:13 pm

I think the US3, and especially Delta, have bigger needs-such as legroom in coach, elder flight attendants, and updating their fleet. Having said that, when I fly I look at price and the quickest way to get from A to B. I am loyal to no one, but I will say that the foreign carriers are light years ahead of the US carriers for comfort and service. I honestly don't think any of the ME3 will go anywhere and I think this has gotten stupid. Maybe Delta should focus their efforts on luring a partnership with say, Emirates-use their "unlimited" cash to fly to places Delta doesn't(and won't). Use the cash and resources to feed their passengers to Emirates flights, with new 777s and A380s instead of trying to fly to India with a 767 or A330 stopping in AMS or CDG.(I know they did the US-BOM routes with a DL 777-just comparing). Fact is, customers want the lowest price and the fastest trip-especially over long distances. Maybe Delta and SkyTeam should try to gain membership with some of these wealthy carriers and benefit from the resources they provide, instead of wasting $$$$$ on propaganda videos, and getting smaller partners(i.e-Saudia) who basically bring little to the table. They have to realize that the ME3 are here to stay one way or another.

Also-explain to me how an International route lost costs 1500 US jobs???? By those numbers, Delta should only be able to operate 53 International routes with their 80,000 strong workforce. 1500 jobs per International route seems steep-even if you count pilots, flight attendants, ground handlers, mechanics, caterers, cleaners, etc, etc. Just wondering.
CEOs should swim with cement flippers!
 
777Mech
Posts: 1019
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:17 pm

BestWestern wrote:
The irony of all ironies is that Delta says nothing about the airlines with the biggest global subsidies - Air China, China Eastern and China Southern. These three airlines are totally distorting the Asia North American market.

DL says nothing as they want a piece of that pie. In China, US carriers have a product perception advantage over the ME3.


Does China have an Open Skies agreement with the US?

Right...
 
User avatar
PerfectGriffin
Posts: 539
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:35 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:54 pm

chiki wrote:
I like the guy who says the flights are nearly empty, this is like a Zanu PF propaganda video and putting staff in it is so low. I don't care about subsidies as long as i get a cheap ticket i am ok. whether its a 17.5 in Boeing or 18 in airbus. I want to get from A to B cheaply and safely.


That was the most petty part of that video. If they are indeed flying empty planes than why not back it up with some actual numbers and not the opinion of some ramp worker.
 
FlyUSAir
Posts: 387
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:26 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:23 pm

PerfectGriffin wrote:
chiki wrote:
I like the guy who says the flights are nearly empty, this is like a Zanu PF propaganda video and putting staff in it is so low. I don't care about subsidies as long as i get a cheap ticket i am ok. whether its a 17.5 in Boeing or 18 in airbus. I want to get from A to B cheaply and safely.


That was the most petty part of that video. If they are indeed flying empty planes than why not back it up with some actual numbers and not the opinion of some ramp worker.


Yep, I flew on a half-empty Delta plane before, they must be going bankrupt!
A319/A320/A321/A333 712/732/733/734/735/737/738/752/753/762/763 C172 CR2/CR7/CR9 E145/E170/E175/E190
MD82/MD83/MD88/MD90 Q100/Q400
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19298
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:30 pm

777GE90 wrote:
Well you clearly don't know who I am if you think I am a "EK basher" (have you seen my signature ).


No, I certainly wasn't referring to you, but other posters in this (and every other) EK thread.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2630
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:41 pm

tu154m wrote:
I think the US3, and especially Delta, have bigger needs-such as legroom in coach, elder flight attendants, and updating their fleet.


Don't forget about upgrading their IT so they don't have a global shutdown for a week every time it rains in Atlanta.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2630
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: DL releases anti-ME3 video

Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:45 pm

slinky09 wrote:
I've always believed that if you have to trash your opposition as a marketing ploy, you have no belief in the value of your own offering. On just how many routes do DL and the ME3 compete again?


It's not a marketing video. It's a video to "educate" DL employees on the competition. Which means reductions in headcount and pay cuts are likely coming soon. This is just prep work in hopes that employees blame the ME3 and unfair subsidies when it happens.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos