vadodara
Posts: 1035
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: Would an AI IndiGo merger produce a global Giant?

Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:35 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Most of AI's current negative image is the result of

1) Unlimited ME3 PR budget
2) Mumbai's collective grudge for moving HQ to Delhi.
3) Indian journalists/bloggers writing bad news for free food
4) Unions using it as tool against management/owners
5) GoI deflecting blame to cover its own shortfalls
6) Spineless/teeth-less management.

Lets look at the future.
1) ME3 will continue to target whoever is their biggest competitor, name/owner doesn't matter.
2) Mumbai will continue to hold grudge, may be even more if the Private AI closes crew base and sells MRO business.
3) Indian journalists/bloggers will continue to write bad news for <imported> free food,
4) Unions (or whatever left over of it) will continue to fight


Looks like the only thing SQ needs to do is to unwrap the overweight Air India stewardess from their sarees with sarong's instead. Takes care off all of AI's problems.
 
Antarius
Posts: 1757
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Would an AI IndiGo merger produce a global Giant?

Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:18 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
It is hilarious to claim connections at DXB, AUH or DOH are better than DEL. Totally ignorant comment.


Have you been to them? AUH is pretty poor, although DXB and DOH wipe the floor with DEL. Seems like your "mera bharat mahaan" pride stops you from seeing things objectively.

That and your fact free claims about a secret media and AI bombay plot to undermine AI.
19:SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS DOH BLR KTM MFM MEX MSY BWI BNA
 
Antarius
Posts: 1757
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Would an AI IndiGo merger produce a global Giant?

Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:23 am

devmapper wrote:
Antarius wrote:
The nonstops are best for O&D traffic. AI would be better off going to a multi hub approach, such as BLR-SFO nonstop to try to grab as much O&D traffic as possible and eliminate the connections. As it stands, no one (maybe except for anshabhi and his ilk) would willingly choose AI over the ME3 for a 1 stop flight.

Where's the proof that a direct SFO-BLR will be a profitable route for any airline, let alone AI, without the network effects of a hub? O&D BLR-SFO cannot sustain a 6 times weekly flight, and AI does not have flights and domestic engineering resources (or the money) to create a new hub in BLR. As for BLR's potential as a hub, we've seen how well it did for IT.


AI would need to build a multi hub approach. India is a huge country in terms of population, and one hub is simply not going to work, especially when DXB, DOH and AUH are basically next door. The AI approach would be like funneling all traffic to JFK for long distant flights out of the US. People turn to other carriers. Also, the ME3 have better aircraft, better hubs, better service, so why would anyone choose to connect via DEL?

BLR-SFO may not work, but IMO, its a better strategy (the multi hub approach) with point to point ULH flying, to capture the premium NS traffic. If you have to stop once, the majority would choose to go through the ME3 hubs and have their much much better product.
19:SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS DOH BLR KTM MFM MEX MSY BWI BNA
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7215
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Would an AI IndiGo merger produce a global Giant?

Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:46 am

Antarius wrote:
Have you been to them? AUH is pretty poor, although DXB and DOH wipe the floor with DEL.

Read several posts and trip reports. Unlike DXB ground staff no help attitude and overall chaos, AI staff proactively help connecting passengers at DEL

DEL/BOM customs and immigration are world class, they are extremely professional and polite. Personal experience. Outbound at BOM was bit slow but nothing major.

Antarius wrote:
Seems like your "mera bharat mahaan" pride stops you from seeing things objectively.


Not applicable to me. My comments are based on US3 struggle. ME3 will eat 6E, SG and UK for breakfast. Hopefully, DL or KLM would buy 9W.

AI is like the freight car at both ends on a railroad train. It bears the brunt to save passenger cars(ie., private carriers) in the middle.

With no access to working capital loans, brutal customs, and excise duties, they will disappear one after another.
 
srbom
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:25 am

Re: Would an AI IndiGo merger produce a global Giant?

Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:27 am

BOM does not need AI to start any flights from BOM. When they dropped BOM from a primary hub to a secondary hub/ focus city we moved on. More flights from BOM by UK would be really appreciated.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3310
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Would an AI IndiGo merger produce a global Giant?

Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:40 am

anshabhi wrote:
yeah still. We are talking from a hub point of view. Not O&D.
No one can have 3 hubs in 500 km...


American Airlines: JFK, LGA, DCA

British Airways: LHR, LGW, LCY

Delta Airlines: BOS, JFK, LGA


Thats three with hub operations at 3 airports within 500km of each other. If the citys are large enough they can.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3310
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Would an AI IndiGo merger produce a global Giant?

Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:41 am

anshabhi wrote:
yeah still. We are talking from a hub point of view. Not O&D.
No one can have 3 hubs in 500 km...


American Airlines: JFK, LGA, DCA

British Airways: LHR, LGW, LCY

Delta Airlines: BOS, JFK, LGA


That is three with hub operations at 3 airports within 500km of each other. If the cities are large enough they can.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1104
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Would an AI IndiGo merger produce a global Giant?

Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:54 am

srbom wrote:
BOM does not need AI to start any flights from BOM. When they dropped BOM from a primary hub to a secondary hub/ focus city we moved on. More flights from BOM by UK would be really appreciated.


I think its because most people in BOM do not see things as a conspiracy.

To the other poster that said DXB and DOH are so great compared to DEL or BOM, why? Most people connecting don't care about shops, lounges etc. They want a fast, friendly and easy connection. DXB is huge and crowded. It is confusing for many. Not a bad airport but not everyone's cup of team. BOM and DEL are small airports and connecting between full service airlines is a breeze relative to EU or the US airports. Both airports also have all the normal amenities (not the super wow ones - but who cares - although BOM is a beautiful airport). This is not a nationalism thing because BOM for instance is still a flawed airport - it can't grow because of the slums (which shouldn't be there) and it lacks a global hub airline with nonstop connectivity. Btw that is DXB's best thing: EK.

Oh and what sense does a multi hub make when you don't have one strong hub. AI, btw has its main hub in DEL, a smaller hub in BOM. 9W is adding a BLR-CMB flight to connect with its AMS flight, but that is not a hub. You will see AI in DEL, 9W in BOM but both will have domestic hubs in other Indian cities and serve key domestic (mostly ME, SE Asia and EU hub flights) from other cities as well. It's rational and what many of us have wanted Indian aviation to be.
 
alyusuph
Posts: 162
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:38 am

Re: Would an AI IndiGo merger produce a global Giant?

Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:45 am

Never rule out the Tatas claiming back their territory through Vistara. I would personally like to see Vistara bidding to bring a more healthy competition and avoid an almost complete monopoly of Indigo for the Indian Skies. Nevertheless, Indigo already has the potential to grow without AI resources.
I am not an Airbus or Boeing fan, just an aircraft fan
 
devmapper
Posts: 219
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:15 pm

Re: Would an AI IndiGo merger produce a global Giant?

Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:44 am

Antarius wrote:
AI would need to build a multi hub approach. India is a huge country in terms of population, and one hub is simply not going to work, especially when DXB, DOH and AUH are basically next door. The AI approach would be like funneling all traffic to JFK for long distant flights out of the US. People turn to other carriers. Also, the ME3 have better aircraft, better hubs, better service, so why would anyone choose to connect via DEL?

BLR-SFO may not work, but IMO, its a better strategy (the multi hub approach) with point to point ULH flying, to capture the premium NS traffic. If you have to stop once, the majority would choose to go through the ME3 hubs and have their much much better product.

India is not large enough, nor does it have sufficient J class passengers to make a multi-hub approach work for ULH flights. For flights to ME or SE Asia, all airlines in India follow a multi-hub strategy because there is sufficient passenger demand, and there are aircraft available which can make the trip economically. For India-NA ULH flights, there are no 120-150 seat aircraft that can fly 7500nm economically to make a BLR-SFO, HYD-SEA, MAA-LAX type flight work.

AI was recently forced by the govt to start the AMD-LHR-EWR flight. I am sure @vadodara will contest this, but that flight has been widely regarded as one of AI's top loss making routes. That just goes to show that even with large diasporas in Greater London and New York-New Jersey urban areas, smaller cities in India cannot sustain long-haul flights without connecting traffic.

The other advantage of having one hub is that an airline doesn't need as many aircraft as it would otherwise need. For example, let's have three people each from BLR,HYD and MAA travel to SFO, LAX and SEA. An airline with multiple hubs in each of the Indian cities mentioned flying non-stop routes would need 9 aircraft carrying only 1 passenger per aircraft, while EK does it with just 3 (assuming arrival and departure banks), connecting at DXB and carrying 3 per aircraft. The net result is that EK can fly those routes profitably. So why is AI adopting a similar approach so anathema? For a country as large as USA, even UA funnels the majority of its China bound passengers through SFO.

With respect to people "simply" choosing ME3 over AI, that has not been the case. EY withdrew AUH-SFO flights because it didn't have sufficient passengers after AI increased the frequency of DEL-SFO to 6 times a week. Where did EY put the aircraft that was freed up by this withdrawal? DFW, where AI doesn't fly. Not to mention the fact that SFO-DEL-BLR is much closer to SFO-BLR non-stop than SFO-DXB-BLR.

I wonder why people expect AI to fly BLR-SFO non-stop yet never voice the same sentiment for 9W.

srbom wrote:
BOM does not need AI to start any flights from BOM. When they dropped BOM from a primary hub to a secondary hub/ focus city we moved on. More flights from BOM by UK would be really appreciated.

BOM hardly has any slots available to start new flights by any operator.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7215
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Would an AI IndiGo merger produce a global Giant?

Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:05 am

I am sure some of the loss making Gujarat air services are first to go under private management. Also, AI's participation in RCS would be minimal.

Indian carriers should do what Norwegian is doing. Use load restricted B737MAX/A32xNEO to feed a low-cost TATL carrier.
 
klakzky123
Posts: 665
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:05 am

Re: Would an AI IndiGo merger produce a global Giant?

Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:24 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
I am sure some of the loss making Gujarat air services are first to go under private management. Also, AI's participation in RCS would be minimal.

Indian carriers should do what Norwegian is doing. Use load restricted B737MAX/A32xNEO to feed a low-cost TATL carrier.


It has been said in the Norwegian thread but converting from an LCC to a carrier that interlines completely changes your business. Indigo, Spicejet and the others are all essentially following the same LCC business model. All of them are built around closed networks focused on point to point travel in India. They've added some international routes but those again follow the same model.

Once you start feeding, you're absorbing tons of new costs and business processes. And all of that to chase some low yield interline revenue. No way they would chase something like that. European carriers haven't started feeding Norwegian for the same reason. There are still plenty of growth opportunities within India and the surrounding region. Interline should only be considered when you've exhausted the easy growth opportunities which none of the Indian LCCs have done.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7215
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Would an AI IndiGo merger produce a global Giant?

Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:10 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
Once you start feeding, you're absorbing tons of new costs and business processes. And all of that to chase some low yield interline revenue. No way they would chase something like that. European carriers haven't started feeding Norwegian for the same reason. There are still plenty of growth opportunities within India and the surrounding region. Interline should only be considered when you've exhausted the easy growth opportunities which none of the Indian LCCs have done.


JV, codeshare or interline are the old way of connecting passengers. Self-connect has the future.

Why spend $$Millions on investing in software and integration, while a ground handler can do it for a small fee paid by the passenger. Marhaba at DXB is one such example. I think SIN will lead the self-connect way by allowing both full service and low-cost carriers at same hub.

If LH group want to segregate passengers by making FRA full-service hub and MUC as a low-cost hub, it will never achieve full potential. The cost of fragmentation will be higher than the revenue premium traffic is going to generate.

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