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jfklganyc
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Would NW have left JFK?

Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:20 pm

In the early 2000s NW served JFK with DC9s to MSP and DTW and a 747 to NRT. They Also had the JV with KL on their flights to AMS.

Both airlines were colocated in T4.

NW axed NRT during fallout after 9/11.

If DL never bought NW:

1. Would the NRT service have resumed when 787s arrived (as planned)?

2. Would they have followed UAs lead and left their token domestic presence at JFK to focus on larger ops at LGA and EWR?

Arguably, UA was in a much better position at JFK with their token presence because they actually had high frequency service to 2 beyond LGA perimeter cities.

On the other hand, NW has almost no presence in NY and would need to hang on to all they had.

Thoughts?
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Would NW have left JFK?

Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:25 pm

1. No
2. Maybe. They wouldn't of had much presence at JFK, but they also wouldn't have a large hub across the Hudson.
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Would NW have left JFK?

Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:44 pm

1. NW as a stand alone carrier with the hub at NRT probably would have plugged JFK into that.
2. For domestic purposes, JFK might have been a spoke for DTW and MSP, but not necessarily.

Interesting question.
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Cointrin330
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Re: Would NW have left JFK?

Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:18 pm

If NW had not merged with DL, it most likely would have cut JFK entirely, and not because of Delta. NW had a presence at JFK with flights to DTW and MSP to feed NYC originating/destination traffic to/from its TPAC flights from those two hubs. The AMS flight was simply added to rotate a 747 more efficiently through JFK rather than having one idle there for 12+ hours turning NRT.

As the NRT hub would eventually lose its competitive edge, with overflying making it less strategic and at the time, NW not having a strong partner in Asia, I suspect a lot of the TPAC would have been restructured to focus more on nonstop flights from DTW, MSP, and potentially, SEA since NW always had a sizable presence there.
 
bfitzflyer
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Re: Would NW have left JFK?

Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:46 pm

I think they would have kept JFK. I believe they also did at least part of the year AMS. They still were a part of skyteam and would have probably kept MSP/DTW connections for international.
 
ITB
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Re: Would NW have left JFK?

Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:26 am

jfklganyc wrote:
If DL never bought NW:

1. Would the NRT service have resumed when 787s arrived (as planned)?

2. Would they have followed UAs lead and left their token domestic presence at JFK to focus on larger ops at LGA and EWR?


1. Yes! NW was very focused on its Asian flying. As you noted, they flew JFK-NRT until shortly after 9-11. While NW was a relatively small player in the NYC market, the JFK-NRT flight with the 787 would have been attractive to many prospective passengers, not only for the direct flight to Tokyo, but also for the hub at NRT, which allowed a easy connection to most of the major cities of East Asia and Southeast Asia.

DL gave JFK-NRT a good try, but ultimately decided it was not worth continuing. It could have been the 747 was too much plane, and filling it was problematic. It didn't help either that JL began flying BOS-NRT with the 787, which likely decreased Delta's feed from the Boston area. Additionally, as DL drew down the NRT hub, the JFK-NRT flight became less attractive to some as there were less cities to connect to at NRT, for instance BKK. When Delta discontinued JFK-NRT, it was only a matter of days before JL announced JFK-NRT to complement their JFK-HND flight.

At this time, there are five daily direct flights between NYC and TYO. Four of the flights are flown by Japanese airlines, two each by JL and NH. The only U.S. representative is UA with EWR-NRT. Things, of course, change rapidly in the aviation industry, but in all likelihood NW would be flying JFK-NRT if the airline was still around today.

2. No. NW would have continued MSP-JFK and DTW-JFK, as those flights were hub and spoke. JFK is one of the principal airports in the U.S. with a large O/D catchment area. Even though the NW station at JFK was relatively small, it's very doubtful they would have pulled out completely. There are still a good number of people who are dismayed UA pulled out of JFK. Even UA exec Scott Kirby recently admitted leaving JFK was "a mistake."

Here's an interesting FAA report (link below) that analyzes the New York City region and its airports. It's from May 2007, a bit old, but still considerably useful to more fully understand the region's O/D, and so forth.

https://www.faa.gov/airports/eastern/pl ... y-2007.pdf
 
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usxguy
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Re: Would NW have left JFK?

Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:02 am

Interesting that you mention NW. I believe they flew ORD-NRT for some time as well, no?
xx
 
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deltacto
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Re: Would NW have left JFK?

Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:20 am

usxguy wrote:
Interesting that you mention NW. I believe they flew ORD-NRT for some time as well, no?


NW flew ORD-NRT for many many years ... going back to at least 1982

http://www.departedflights.com/NW080182p6.html

and prior to the JFK/NRT nonstop NW operated JFK-IAD-ORD-NRT ... imagine JFK-IAD-ORD on a 747!

http://www.departedflights.com/NW080182p22.html
 
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OA940
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Re: Would NW have left JFK?

Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:52 am

Tbh it is possible, though we can't know for sure.
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EMB170
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Re: Would NW have left JFK?

Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:43 pm

deltacto wrote:
usxguy wrote:
Interesting that you mention NW. I believe they flew ORD-NRT for some time as well, no?


NW flew ORD-NRT for many many years ... going back to at least 1982

http://www.departedflights.com/NW080182p6.html

and prior to the JFK/NRT nonstop NW operated JFK-IAD-ORD-NRT ... imagine JFK-IAD-ORD on a 747!

http://www.departedflights.com/NW080182p22.html


Not only did they fly NW 5/6 ORD-NRT, with a change of gauge, they also flew ORD-BOS with the same flight number. Varied between an A320 and a DC-9-50.
IND ORD ATL MCO PIT EWR BUF CVG DEN RNO JFK DTW BOS BDL BWI IAD RDU CLT MYR CHS TPA CID MSP STL MSY DFW IAH AUS SLC LAS
 
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RetiredNWA
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Re: Would NW have left JFK?

Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:08 pm

The addition of the 747-400 in the late 80's/early 90's made JFK-NRT nonstop a possibility. The route was withdrawn for a time post-9/11 but reactivated prior to the merger with Delta.

Had NW remained a stand-alone company and the 787 had been delivered as scheduled, JFK-NRT would have been operated by that equipment at some point. It is interesting to look back at the "what-if's" and speculate as to what NW would have done with the JFK operation -- remember, JFK and EWR each saw daily (seasonal) service to Amsterdam.

For many years, ORD had daily (or near-daily) Generic 747 service to Narita; it was discontinued in mid-2000. The BOS-ORD nonstop was discontinued around the same time period; it was operated mainly by the 727 fleet. Yes, for you sticklers out there, the DC9 and A320 made an appearance on the route.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Would NW have left JFK?

Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:33 pm

Had Northwest survived would they have left JFK? Certainly not. Northwest may have changed it's name from Northwest Orient, but it never lost it's identity as a real airline and a major player in the Pacific. You can't be a major player in the Pacific without some connection to one of the NYC airports, and you can't fly to the Pacific from LGA. So JFK would have definitely have remained.

Delta has a different business model -- not a major player in the Pacific and more of a virtual airline than a real airline. They will be content to sell tickets to the Pacific while Republic Airlines and others feed pax into JFK and Korean and China Eastern take them across the ocean.
 
RetiredWeasel
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Re: Would NW have left JFK?

Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:55 pm

RetiredNWA wrote:
The addition of the 747-400 in the late 80's/early 90's made JFK-NRT nonstop a possibility. The route was withdrawn for a time post-9/11 but reactivated prior to the merger with Delta.


During 89-95 the generic 747 flew most of the nonstop JFK-NRT flights. The 400 was used in 92 for almost a year but was pulled for other markets including a shortlived JFK-OSA-SYD. The classic occasionally made a fuel stop in ANC but that was uncommon.
 
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RetiredNWA
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Re: Would NW have left JFK?

Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:41 pm

RetiredWeasel wrote:
RetiredNWA wrote:
The addition of the 747-400 in the late 80's/early 90's made JFK-NRT nonstop a possibility. The route was withdrawn for a time post-9/11 but reactivated prior to the merger with Delta.


During 89-95 the generic 747 flew most of the nonstop JFK-NRT flights. The 400 was used in 92 for almost a year but was pulled for other markets including a shortlived JFK-OSA-SYD. The classic occasionally made a fuel stop in ANC but that was uncommon.


Perhaps I could have phrased my response better: "The introduction of the -400 provided for *consistent* non-stop operations on the JFK-NRT sector. I flew the generic many times on JFK-NRT and recall dropping into ANC for fuel more than a few times during my career. The -100 always required a fuel stop; the -200's once in a while. We almost always operated with a flight plan that included a re-release over ANC based on our fuel plan and progress. We had the best meteorologists and dispatchers in the industry, bar none.

It is worth noting that in the 80's and early 90's we had a sizable operation at JFK with many non-stops to cities in Europe.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Would NW have left JFK?

Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:02 pm

Did they?

Besides AMS, what cities in Europe were served and in what timeframe?

I know BOS was a mini hub for a while
 
bfitzflyer
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Re: Would NW have left JFK?

Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:27 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Did they?

Besides AMS, what cities in Europe were served and in what timeframe?

I know BOS was a mini hub for a while


In the early to mid 80's I know they did some of the Scandinavian routes from JFK - Oslo, Stockholm or Copenhagen. Not sure of exact cities, but I recall they used to do TPA,-JFK-Scandinavia.
 
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RetiredNWA
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Re: Would NW have left JFK?

Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:53 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Did they?

Besides AMS, what cities in Europe were served and in what timeframe?

I know BOS was a mini hub for a while


We sure did! There were non-stop and tag-on flights throughout Europe. Frankfurt, Copenhagen and Oslo come to mind. Hamburg, too. There were several other destinations as well - all of the Europe service was on DC10's and 747 Generics.

There was also a New York pilot domicile; it closed in the 90's.

Somewhere in my vast piles of junk, I have my crewmember activity statements from that time period. If anyone is interested, I'll find a schedule from that time period and post it.
 
RetiredWeasel
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Re: Would NW have left JFK?

Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:57 pm

RetiredNWA wrote:
Perhaps I could have phrased my response better: "The introduction of the -400 provided for *consistent* non-stop operations on the JFK-NRT sector. I flew the generic many times on JFK-NRT and recall dropping into ANC for fuel more than a few times during my career. The -100 always required a fuel stop; the -200's once in a while. We almost always operated with a flight plan that included a re-release over ANC based on our fuel plan and progress. ....


I never flew the JFK-NRT in a 100. Most of my 7 or 8 flights on this route (I was based in HNL) were on the 747-200B which had the JT9D-7R4G2 engines. Never had to stop in ANC, but do recall, I think, 1 stop in CTS due to an overburn. Again, this was all after 91.
 
USAirALB
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Re: Would NW have left JFK?

Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:30 pm

When NW suspended JFK-NRT in 2005, they announced it as a temporary measure IIRC, and said they would resume it when they received 787s.
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bfitzflyer
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Re: Would NW have left JFK?

Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:42 pm

I just remembered another JFK route by NW. Mid to late 80's, NW did JFK-OSA continuing on to SYD.. I believe Australian government got involved as this broke the air treaty, don't remember the details.
 
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deltacto
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Re: Would NW have left JFK?

Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:32 pm

bfitzflyer wrote:
I just remembered another JFK route by NW. Mid to late 80's, NW did JFK-OSA continuing on to SYD.. I believe Australian government got involved as this broke the air treaty, don't remember the details.


This thread from 2000 talks about Northwest flying JFK-Osaka-Sydney
Did NW Operate JFK-KIX?
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=53977

And from RoutesOnline
1992/93: Northwest Airlines International Network
http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... l-network/
 
drdisque
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Re: Would NW have left JFK?

Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:24 pm

They would have kept it as a contract station with 2-class Airlink service to DTW and MSP.

If JFK-NRT had started with the 787, it probably wouldn't have stuck.

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