dia77
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Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:15 pm

Denver has had a great year in attracting new international service. Edelweiss will start flying to Denver in June, 2018 with 2 weekly flights to Zurich (operated by A330-300). Local press announcement: http://denver.cbslocal.com/2017/07/05/e ... h-flights/
 
caverunner17
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:26 pm

I presume this will also be a code-share with UA and LX as WK is part of the LH group?

As a new resident to DEN (coming from ORD), this Intl expansion excites me. Hoping we get a CA or OZ flight at some time in the future.
 
kimimm19
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:29 pm

Great news!
 
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mooseofspruce
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:44 pm

It was only a month or so ago that it was mentioned in the Swiss Aviation thread that DEN was in talks with WK. Is the lead time normally this short?
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:52 pm

Three international flag carriers announced this year. Concourse A is going to be a congested place.
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slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:58 pm

DEN is growing, this will not be the last announcement!
 
manny
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:30 pm

So DEN now has Lufthansa, British Airways, Iceland Air, Edelweiss, Norwegian providing service to DEN.

Yet not a single transatlantic flight from United. All through these years United has treated DEN like a bastard child. Heck Delta has more transatlantic flights from Salt Lake which is a smaller airport with only a third of traffic.
 
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exunited
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:49 pm

manny wrote:
So DEN now has Lufthansa, British Airways, Iceland Air, Edelweiss, Norwegian providing service to DEN.

Yet not a single transatlantic flight from United. All through these years United has treated DEN like a bastard child. Heck Delta has more transatlantic flights from Salt Lake which is a smaller airport with only a third of traffic.


Not bad only 6 posts before the first DL is better post. Perhaps UA has the ability to connect their European pax via another hub and are not currently interested in or maybe have not been offered a comparable subsidy to run these flights.
 
kimimm19
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:52 pm

caverunner17 wrote:
I presume this will also be a code-share with UA and LX as WK is part of the LH group?

As a new resident to DEN (coming from ORD), this Intl expansion excites me. Hoping we get a CA or OZ flight at some time in the future.



You would very much think that there would be code-share! This would be nice as a Swiss passenger, not having to go through somewhere like ORD which is sort of the norm nowadays.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:54 pm

dia77 wrote:
Denver has had a great year in attracting new international service. Edelweiss will start flying to Denver in June, 2018 with 2 weekly flights to Zurich (operated by A330-300). Local press announcement: http://denver.cbslocal.com/2017/07/05/e ... h-flights/


:checkmark: Great News! Do they normally announce a year an advance?
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ty97
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:28 pm

exunited wrote:
manny wrote:
So DEN now has Lufthansa, British Airways, Iceland Air, Edelweiss, Norwegian providing service to DEN.

Yet not a single transatlantic flight from United. All through these years United has treated DEN like a bastard child. Heck Delta has more transatlantic flights from Salt Lake which is a smaller airport with only a third of traffic.


Not bad only 6 posts before the first DL is better post. Perhaps UA has the ability to connect their European pax via another hub and are not currently interested in or maybe have not been offered a comparable subsidy to run these flights.


FWIW, I did not read this as a 'DL is better' post, but rather a question from the poster about why UA can't/won't/doesn't support TATL service from DEN when another, smaller airport supports TATL service. The poster could have used RDU as a comparison instead of SLC, as an example, so I don't see this as UA vs DL.

Just my two cents.
 
Rdh3e
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:35 pm

manny wrote:
So DEN now has Lufthansa, British Airways, Iceland Air, Edelweiss, Norwegian providing service to DEN.

Yet not a single transatlantic flight from United. All through these years United has treated DEN like a bastard child. Heck Delta has more transatlantic flights from Salt Lake which is a smaller airport with only a third of traffic.


ty97 wrote:
but rather a question from the poster about why UA can't/won't/doesn't support TATL service from DEN when another, smaller airport supports TATL service

FWIW, you guys are just looking at it from a different perspective. For both UA and DL they are in metal-neutral joint ventures, from a revenue and profit standpoint, UA does fly to Europe, it's just done through the A++ JV.

In the DL JV they determined it made sense for DL to do the flying. In the UA JV they decided it was a more efficient use of resources for the LH group carriers to do the flying.
 
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intotheair
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:36 pm

exunited wrote:
manny wrote:
So DEN now has Lufthansa, British Airways, Iceland Air, Edelweiss, Norwegian providing service to DEN.

Yet not a single transatlantic flight from United. All through these years United has treated DEN like a bastard child. Heck Delta has more transatlantic flights from Salt Lake which is a smaller airport with only a third of traffic.


Not bad only 6 posts before the first DL is better post. Perhaps UA has the ability to connect their European pax via another hub and are not currently interested in or maybe have not been offered a comparable subsidy to run these flights.


But UA does by some standards have TATL nonstops from DEN — it's just not on UA metal. From a financial standpoint, it doesn't really matter who operates JV flights. All carriers share the revenue.

Sure, DL metal flies to their DL/VS/AF/KL hubs, though on nothing larger than a 767, and there's a 787 on KL 4x seasonally at the most. UA may not fly on their metal, but now there's 1x 744 to FRA, MUC alternating between the 333 and 346, and now 2x weekly to ZRH. That's a pretty healthy dose of capacity across the Atlantic nonstop. LHR will probably not happen anytime soon and it's not a JV hub unlike in DL's case, so what else do you expect from UA? BRU? VIE? GVA? CDG may be nice, but it would require a lot of connecting feed to support it, and it's an apples-to-oranges comparison with DL at SLC because it's not a Star hub.

If you consider all of that, plus UA's service to Mexico, the return of the PTY flight on CM, UA to NRT, and more service on AC, I think Star is doing pretty well at DEN, especially compared to its peer cities. And with all the international service on the other carriers, DEN currently has more international nonstop service than anytime in its history, and definitely more than SLC or PHX.

This is a time to celebrate if anything!
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manny
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:01 pm

exunited wrote:
manny wrote:
So DEN now has Lufthansa, British Airways, Iceland Air, Edelweiss, Norwegian providing service to DEN.

Yet not a single transatlantic flight from United. All through these years United has treated DEN like a bastard child. Heck Delta has more transatlantic flights from Salt Lake which is a smaller airport with only a third of traffic.


Not bad only 6 posts before the first DL is better post. Perhaps UA has the ability to connect their European pax via another hub and are not currently interested in or maybe have not been offered a comparable subsidy to run these flights.


You are deflecting away from the point I am making.
 
manny
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:04 pm

Rdh3e wrote:
manny wrote:
So DEN now has Lufthansa, British Airways, Iceland Air, Edelweiss, Norwegian providing service to DEN.

Yet not a single transatlantic flight from United. All through these years United has treated DEN like a bastard child. Heck Delta has more transatlantic flights from Salt Lake which is a smaller airport with only a third of traffic.


ty97 wrote:
but rather a question from the poster about why UA can't/won't/doesn't support TATL service from DEN when another, smaller airport supports TATL service

FWIW, you guys are just looking at it from a different perspective. For both UA and DL they are in metal-neutral joint ventures, from a revenue and profit standpoint, UA does fly to Europe, it's just done through the A++ JV.

In the DL JV they determined it made sense for DL to do the flying. In the UA JV they decided it was a more efficient use of resources for the LH group carriers to do the flying.


The LH-UA joint venture has been in place for like a couple of years. UA had the potential to have atleast one transatlantic flight from DEN for the better part of the last two decades. If other airlines can manage to do that from an airport with much smaller traffic surely UA could have done it as well given DEN has been a big hub for UA.
 
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:11 pm

manny wrote:
So DEN now has Lufthansa, British Airways, Iceland Air, Edelweiss, Norwegian providing service to DEN.

Yet not a single transatlantic flight from United. All through these years United has treated DEN like a bastard child. Heck Delta has more transatlantic flights from Salt Lake which is a smaller airport with only a third of traffic.


Find an airplane that is on a route that makes less money than a route from DEN. United does not have WB aircraft just sitting around, and all aircraft on order are spoken for at the moment. Maybe when the 787-10 shows up some of the 777 that are used from the east coast to Europe can be freed up to fly from DEN.

I promise you there is someone who watches all markets and knows what is profitable and what isn't from DEN. Your argument would carry more water if all these airlines were daily.
 
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exunited
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:17 pm

manny wrote:
exunited wrote:
manny wrote:
So DEN now has Lufthansa, British Airways, Iceland Air, Edelweiss, Norwegian providing service to DEN.

Yet not a single transatlantic flight from United. All through these years United has treated DEN like a bastard child. Heck Delta has more transatlantic flights from Salt Lake which is a smaller airport with only a third of traffic.


Not bad only 6 posts before the first DL is better post. Perhaps UA has the ability to connect their European pax via another hub and are not currently interested in or maybe have not been offered a comparable subsidy to run these flights.


You are deflecting away from the point I am making.


Not really. United has people looking at things all of the time and maybe they feel there is a better place to use their assets (aircraft) than TATL from Denver. Not to say they may not be profitable, but that's not the game, you put your assets where they will make the MOST profit. As others have mentioned, UA has JV and Star Alliance partners as well to cover things. I'm pretty confident that UA or any other airline has never seen a routing post on A-Net and thought "why didn't we think of that first".
 
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:28 pm

manny wrote:
The LH-UA joint venture has been in place for like a couple of years. UA had the potential to have atleast one transatlantic flight from DEN for the better part of the last two decades. If other airlines can manage to do that from an airport with much smaller traffic surely UA could have done it as well given DEN has been a big hub for UA.


I think one could make a convincing argument that UA flubbed DEN-TATL in the past. But I think UA had their reasons, and especially if you look at UA's history, it was not a healthy, expanding airline for most of the last two decades. Plus, what did they really miss out on? Most of the people lamenting the lack of DEN-TATL on UA metal seem to be predicating their argument on DEN-LHR/LGW, which has been a strong BA route for 20 years. But I'm willing to bet BA has a much easier time filling a plane profitably with LHR O&D than UA ever did with DEN O&D.

But that's only one route, and that's all in the past. What should UA (or Star, or LH Group) be doing differently now? As I see it, there isn't much to complain about as a DEN-based traveler with more nonstop options than ever, both on UA/LH Group airlines and others.
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jhsusman
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:43 pm

I don't believe Edelweiss is part of Star Alliance so I am unsure if code-shares are possible. I am hopeful that Swiss is successful on this route and that Denver gets daily service using the full-line Swiss product soon.

Any ideas of what's next for DEN? NZ to Auckland? A Chinese carrier? Air France? Emirates?
 
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intotheair
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:54 pm

jhsusman wrote:
I don't believe Edelweiss is part of Star Alliance so I am unsure if code-shares are possible. I am hopeful that Swiss is successful on this route and that Denver gets daily service using the full-line Swiss product soon.


You are right that Edelweiss is not a Star member. But it is a subsidiary of Swiss, which is a member of LH Group, and LH Group is part of the A++ JV with UA, so the revenue is still shared. UA also does have some codeshares and FF partnerships with Edelweiss. I don't think accrual and redemption is as good as it is with full Star members, but it's still possible to earn miles on Edelweiss so long as you're booked on UA ticket stock. As far as I know, this is the first time Edelweiss has flown into a UA hub, so it should be interesting to see how much FFP cooperation and codesharing happens on this flight.
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:10 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
DEN is growing, this will not be the last announcement!

The only remaining long haul flights I can see would be CDG on DL/AF (or even DY) and PEK/ICN on CA/OZ. I"m not confident an ME3 would work for a daily flight unless they flew a 788/789
 
dia77
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:27 pm

caverunner17 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
DEN is growing, this will not be the last announcement!

The only remaining long haul flights I can see would be CDG on DL/AF (or even DY) and PEK/ICN on CA/OZ. I"m not confident an ME3 would work for a daily flight unless they flew a 788/789


I think that CDG on DY would be a likely possibility.
 
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:04 pm

manny wrote:
So DEN now has Lufthansa, British Airways, Iceland Air, Edelweiss, Norwegian providing service to DEN.


That's impressive for a city such as DEN. I bet UA flyers would like a LHR flight, but Europe is definitely much stronger than before and not a weak link.

manny wrote:
Yet not a single transatlantic flight from United. All through these years United has treated DEN like a bastard child. Heck Delta has more transatlantic flights from Salt Lake which is a smaller airport with only a third of traffic.

There's likely very good reasons for it. LH and Edelweiss are JV partners with UA, so it doesn't matter financially who flies the route. UA doesn't have the TATL aircraft or crews for based in DEN, and one flight or two isn't worth a base. So either they would have to bring them into DEN with positioning flights or W aircraft routings. It could be much better to allow the European partner to fly the route instead.

Would you really want DEN to trade spots with SLC or even MSP? Where DL runs a monopoly or near monopoly and flight destinations and capacities are restricted? With these additions, in peak-season DEN will now serve more European airports and the same number of cities as MSP. That's impressive.
 
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787fan8
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:12 pm

In addition to Denver, Edelweiss is also resuming Orlando and starting service to Varadero as well. http://m.atwonline.com/airports-routes/ ... 18-network
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trexel94
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Will there be any entry level fare discounts? I poked around on SWISS.com (you have to book WK tickets there if you're American) and the cheapest economy seats nonstop DEN to ZRH from June 4th and onward were over $1,800! :( I know its non-stop and during summer but I thought WK was a leaisure carrier? I could save 40% by flying LH or LX with a layover. If i'm going to pay that much then I want the full-service product.

On a more positive note and as a Denver resident I am more than thrilled about the upcoming service. Any speculation for potential new airlines? How about SAS or Asiana? Both are *A

Also, since international service is picking up does DIA have any plans for a new international concourse similar to the likes of TBIT or at least expanding existing facilities? I know airport management has a laundry list of airlines they want to attract
 
caverunner17
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:15 pm

trexel94 wrote:

Also, since international service is picking up does DIA have any plans for a new international concourse similar to the likes of TBIT or at least expanding existing facilities? I know airport management has a laundry list of airlines they want to attract

Incoming flights all arrive at Terminal A where immigration is. Outbound is spread out between the terminals -- UA's NRT leaves from the UA terminal, I believe BA's leaves from the AA terminal, etc.

Very similar to how ORD does it where pretty much only non-partnered airlines leave from the international terminal.

edit: I stand corrected, LH stays at A
Last edited by caverunner17 on Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Rdh3e
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:20 pm

caverunner17 wrote:
Outbound is spread out between the terminals -- LH and UA's NRT leaves from the NRT terminal,

LH stays on A. Their turns are short, probably not long enough to tow over to B with UA.
 
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intotheair
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:42 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
UA doesn't have the TATL aircraft or crews for based in DEN, and one flight or two isn't worth a base. So either they would have to bring them into DEN with positioning flights or W aircraft routings. It could be much better to allow the European partner to fly the route instead.


UA is reopening its 757/767 pilot base at DEN. There's no 777 base there despite so many new domestic 777 flights. If UA were to do DEN-Europe nonstop again, the 787 would probably be the right plane. Currently, the DEN-NRT 788 is positioned from SFO (previously IAH).

trexel94 wrote:
Will there be any entry level fare discounts? I poked around on SWISS.com (you have to book WK tickets there if you're American) and the cheapest economy seats nonstop DEN to ZRH from June 4th and onward were over $1,800! :( I know its non-stop and during summer but I thought WK was a leaisure carrier? I could save 40% by flying LH or LX with a layover. If i'm going to pay that much then I want the full-service product.


I don't know too much about WK, but fares that far out are typically pretty high anyway, and a lot of new route adds don't have a lot of discount fare buckets open right away — or at least that's my experience from watching UA's new adds. Seeing as this is the (as far as I know) first time WK has flown into a UA hub, hopefully there will be some cooperation by way of at least a codeshare with some discount fares. I can't seem to get WK flights to show up on united.com, though you could theoretically book it (albeit full fare) from 1-800-UNITED-1.

On a more positive note and as a Denver resident I am more than thrilled about the upcoming service. Any speculation for potential new airlines? How about SAS or Asiana? Both are *A

Also, since international service is picking up does DIA have any plans for a new international concourse similar to the likes of TBIT or at least expanding existing facilities? I know airport management has a laundry list of airlines they want to attract


I'm not sure we'll see SK or OZ come to DEN anytime soon. They are in Star, but they are not JV partners with UA, so there's less incentive for them to come here. SK is effectively a UA competitor, and I would imagine FI gobbles up most of the DEN-Nordic traffic. Some people in the DL threads were speculating that KE would return to some previously-served markets, including BOS and DEN, which was served via a one-stop at SFO in the late 90s. That seems like a stretch to me, but then again, I did not expect all this international growth at DEN from all these carriers in the last two years.

As for expansion, they are adding gates in the near-term to A, B, and C. They have converted more A gates to FIS gates, and I think there may be plans for more. There's a $1.3bn proposal to renovate the terminal, but not much as far as concourses go. I think the preferred expansion plan, once all the existing concourses are maxed out, is to build concourses parallel and east and west of the terminal, but that's probably at least a decade out.
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:42 pm

trexel94 wrote:
Will there be any entry level fare discounts? I poked around on SWISS.com (you have to book WK tickets there if you're American) and the cheapest economy seats nonstop DEN to ZRH from June 4th and onward were over $1,800! :( I know its non-stop and during summer but I thought WK was a leaisure carrier? I could save 40% by flying LH or LX with a layover. If i'm going to pay that much then I want the full-service product.


Actually, it is a full-service product. WK is offering the same product as LX in Y,W and C (They are not offering F). Just the config and the destinations are more 'leisure' as are the frequencies.
 
jhsusman
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:49 pm

Terminal A is going to be really crowded in the evenings next year - BA 747 (LHR), LH 747 (FRA), LH 340-600 (MUC), Norwegian 787-9 (LGW), Edelweiss A330 (ZRH) - Friday evenings only, IcelandAir 757 (KEF) - 2 flights on certain days, all in the evenings, Copa 737 (PTY), plus the numerous late afternoon arrivals from Mexico (CUN, PVR, SJD, etc)
 
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:57 am

exunited wrote:
manny wrote:
So DEN now has Lufthansa, British Airways, Iceland Air, Edelweiss, Norwegian providing service to DEN.

Yet not a single transatlantic flight from United. All through these years United has treated DEN like a bastard child. Heck Delta has more transatlantic flights from Salt Lake which is a smaller airport with only a third of traffic.


Not bad only 6 posts before the first DL is better post. Perhaps UA has the ability to connect their European pax via another hub and are not currently interested in or maybe have not been offered a comparable subsidy to run these flights.

Right???

Obviously manny isn't aware of UAs DEN-NRT flight which is going gangbusters compared to DLs non-existent SLC-NRT. I flew on it 2 days ago, very nice flight.
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QueenoftheSkies
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:08 am

TWA772LR wrote:
exunited wrote:
manny wrote:
So DEN now has Lufthansa, British Airways, Iceland Air, Edelweiss, Norwegian providing service to DEN.

Yet not a single transatlantic flight from United. All through these years United has treated DEN like a bastard child. Heck Delta has more transatlantic flights from Salt Lake which is a smaller airport with only a third of traffic.


Not bad only 6 posts before the first DL is better post. Perhaps UA has the ability to connect their European pax via another hub and are not currently interested in or maybe have not been offered a comparable subsidy to run these flights.

Right???

Obviously manny isn't aware of UAs DEN-NRT flight which is going gangbusters compared to DLs non-existent SLC-NRT. I flew on it 2 days ago, very nice flight.


He specifically noted transatlantic. Last time I checked den-nrt is transpacific.
 
jhsusman
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:33 pm

I am guessing the DEN - AKL or DEN - DXB could be the next big international announcement. . .
 
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:05 pm

Rdh3e wrote:
manny wrote:
So DEN now has Lufthansa, British Airways, Iceland Air, Edelweiss, Norwegian providing service to DEN.

Yet not a single transatlantic flight from United. All through these years United has treated DEN like a bastard child. Heck Delta has more transatlantic flights from Salt Lake which is a smaller airport with only a third of traffic.


ty97 wrote:
but rather a question from the poster about why UA can't/won't/doesn't support TATL service from DEN when another, smaller airport supports TATL service

FWIW, you guys are just looking at it from a different perspective. For both UA and DL they are in metal-neutral joint ventures, from a revenue and profit standpoint, UA does fly to Europe, it's just done through the A++ JV.

In the DL JV they determined it made sense for DL to do the flying. In the UA JV they decided it was a more efficient use of resources for the LH group carriers to do the flying.


FWIW the LH JV isn't 'passenger experience neutral' for UA FF members. If you fly LH on a UA ticket, there is no mileage accrual in the cheapest fare classes and there is no seat selection prior to check in in any class of service. I found this to ample reason to choose to fly UA on my last TATL trip.
 
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intotheair
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Re: Edelweiss to start Denver-Zurich

Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:34 pm

mcg wrote:
FWIW the LH JV isn't 'passenger experience neutral' for UA FF members. If you fly LH on a UA ticket, there is no mileage accrual in the cheapest fare classes and there is no seat selection prior to check in in any class of service. I found this to ample reason to choose to fly UA on my last TATL trip.


That's not true. If you book an LH metal flight on UA ticket stock beginning with 016 and credit the itinerary to UA MP, then you will earn miles just as if the flight were operated by UA. RDMs earned in that case is a multiplication of the base fare. On the other hand, if you book that same flight but from LH directly and have it ticketed on LH stock, then yes, you earn based on distance flown multiplied by a percent as determined by fare class. The latter can result in some pretty crappy mileage accrual, yes, but in my experience, the UA codeshares are usually priced about the same as the LH-marketed itineraries, so there's not really any reason to book through LH anyway.

You are mostly right about seat selection though. You can choose a seat before check in, but you have to pay for it. But that's pretty much par for the course for most EU carriers longhaul, and UA probably isn't too far off from doing the same thing once Basic Economy rolls out to international markets.
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