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nitepilot79
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Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:54 am

I'm kind of surprised 100 bullets made it through security leaving the US. Anyway, she's 60+ so I'd imagine that she'll probably just get a slap on the wrist...

http://www.newsweek.com/us-woman-dumps- ... can-633130

Article quote:

"For one U.S. citizen in her 60s, that something was 100 live bullets. Aftering arriving at Tokyo’s International Haneda Airport Wednesday with her husband to transfer to a flight to Southeast Asia, she noticed the bullets were in her bag and dumped them in a trash can, Japan Times reported. Police arrested the woman, who has not yet been named, on suspicion of bringing 100 live bullets into to the country, which is in violation of Japan’s Firearm And Sword Control Law."
 
CO953
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:30 am

Very interesting. A couple months ago on a thread where someone asked about transporting firearms, I described something like this happening to me.

At LAX back about 2004 I was at the ticketing counter checking in and while reaching into my backpack for the printed itinerary I discovered a single stray bullet in the pocket which had somehow become folded into a seam due to a gap in the stitching. I immediately declared it to the ticketing agent (it was United Airlines if I recall correctly) and asked what I should do. She said that it was up to me ..... As I had been dropped off - had no ride or vehicle- I asked if the airport had a disposal procedure or whether I should throw it in a trash can or what? The agent repeated her non-response. I was not too happy because it was not that long after 9/11 and I figured that the airports should have some sort of procedure. I would have been happy to wait a few minutes and turn it over to an airport policeman or something.

Faced with the unhelpful non-response, and not being in a position to transport myself out of the airport, I simply walked to the curb and dropped it into a trash can, then returned to the counter and checked in.

With so many conflicting and overlapping weapons laws across the world, I don't approve of anyone being detained or charged for an an honest oversight, if they immediately declare the mistake. There has to be some room still reserved for the human factor in air travel, and the occasional human mistake. Same thing applies to anyone not aware of New York's repeated (unconstitutional) detention of passengers who have legally checked a firearm in another state of flight origin and then transited through a New York airport on the way to somewhere else and been ambushed by police during the stop-over. This violates the transit protections of the Commerce clause of the Constitution that allows your Pennsylvania driver's license, for example, to be valid for driving through Wyoming on a vacation. It should apply to a passenger in transit, but of course certain American states nowadays feel free to make their own laws just like in 1861. :old:

I hope that the situation in Japan will be solved sensibly and quickly. Every man-hour applied to something like this detracts from man-hours applied to true threats......
 
spacecadet
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:04 am

CO953 wrote:
With so many conflicting and overlapping weapons laws across the world, I don't approve of anyone being detained or charged for an an honest oversight,


It's your responsibility to know the laws of the countries you're visiting before you get there. If you make a mistake, take responsibility for it. Yes, people make mistakes - that doesn't mean there are no consequences for them.

Having firearms or ammunition in Japan without being properly licensed is a serious offense. The US takes a laissez-fare attitude towards this, but any American who travels needs to understand that almost universally, the rest of the world is not like this. And Japan has some of the most draconian weapons laws anywhere (believe it or not, they were mainly written by us!). In Japan, a person carrying 100 live bullets around is considered a major threat to public safety. It would be like somebody walking around with a baggie full of anthrax at JFK Airport, dumping it in the middle of the terminal, then claiming ignorance when they were arrested. We would (rightly) tell that person that we really don't care if they knew our laws or not - if they didn't, they should have.

I'm not saying she should have the book thrown at her, but *as an American*, I get sick of the attitude a lot of my fellow countrymen have that we should be allowed to get away with whatever we want wherever we go just because we happen to be ignorant of other cultures and their laws. That ignorance is *her fault*! She should pay a price for that.
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FlyHappy
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:14 am

I love this story for nothing more than the "Firearm And Sword Control Law" ! So cool, and feudal and just plain Japanese !
 
undertheradar
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:51 am

It's a common joke in the travel industry when we hear of Amercans who get 'into trouble' overseas, OR get asked to fill out a form for whatever reason, whilst in another country and their response/defence is ... "But. I am an American" ROFL
 
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KTPAFlyer
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:55 am

nitepilot79 wrote:
I'm kind of surprised 100 bullets made it through security leaving the US."


This is definitely not a surprise. Any chance she was flying from MSP? :duck:

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/ ... tems-minn/
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:08 am

CO953 wrote:
Very interesting. A couple months ago on a thread where someone asked about transporting firearms, I described something like this happening to me.

At LAX back about 2004 I was at the ticketing counter checking in and while reaching into my backpack for the printed itinerary I discovered a single stray bullet in the pocket which had somehow become folded into a seam due to a gap in the stitching. I immediately declared it to the ticketing agent (it was United Airlines if I recall correctly) and asked what I should do. She said that it was up to me ..... As I had been dropped off - had no ride or vehicle- I asked if the airport had a disposal procedure or whether I should throw it in a trash can or what? The agent repeated her non-response. I was not too happy because it was not that long after 9/11 and I figured that the airports should have some sort of procedure. I would have been happy to wait a few minutes and turn it over to an airport policeman or something.

Faced with the unhelpful non-response, and not being in a position to transport myself out of the airport, I simply walked to the curb and dropped it into a trash can, then returned to the counter and checked in.

With so many conflicting and overlapping weapons laws across the world, I don't approve of anyone being detained or charged for an an honest oversight, if they immediately declare the mistake. There has to be some room still reserved for the human factor in air travel, and the occasional human mistake. Same thing applies to anyone not aware of New York's repeated (unconstitutional) detention of passengers who have legally checked a firearm in another state of flight origin and then transited through a New York airport on the way to somewhere else and been ambushed by police during the stop-over. This violates the transit protections of the Commerce clause of the Constitution that allows your Pennsylvania driver's license, for example, to be valid for driving through Wyoming on a vacation. It should apply to a passenger in transit, but of course certain American states nowadays feel free to make their own laws just like in 1861. :old:

I hope that the situation in Japan will be solved sensibly and quickly. Every man-hour applied to something like this detracts from man-hours applied to true threats......


Countries not being the USA, do not accept "ups" in regards to guns and ammunition, simple.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:33 am

Americans have a laissez faire attitude towards guns, and it at times gets Americans into trouble. This happened a few days ago on the US-Canada border:

https://www.canada.ca/en/border-service ... aveg0.html

The Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) is reminding United States (U.S.) travellers to educate themselves on Canadian firearm laws, following an incident at the Chief Mountain border crossing.

On July 3, CBSA officers seized four undeclared handguns from a Minnesota man who had been referred for a routine examination. All of these firearms were found in luggage stored inside a pickup truck box:

a .45-calibre revolver;
a .50-calibre revolver;
a .40-calibre pistol (loaded); and,
a .45-calibre pistol.

The traveller was arrested and his vehicle was also seized, as it had been used to unlawfully import goods. He had to pay a $4,000 penalty to get it back. As per standard CBSA procedure, the handguns will be destroyed.

The CBSA strongly recommends that travellers not carry their firearms when travelling to Canada or transiting through Canada to Alaska. However, should you choose to travel with your firearms, you must declare all firearms in your possession at the first Canadian designated port of entry. You must also have all the necessary permits and have your firearm appropriately stored.

Firearms are high-risk commodities and their interdiction is a CBSA enforcement priority. Travellers who do not declare firearms upon arrival can face arrest, seizure, monetary penalties, and criminal prosecution. Failing to declare firearms can also make visitors inadmissible to enter Canada.


And this happened a few months ago:

https://www.canada.ca/en/border-service ... earms.html

CBSA officers at the Lansdowne (Thousand Island) port of entry arrested two men and seized three firearms in separate incidents on May 3 and May 9.



On May 3, 2017, a 53-year-old commercial driver and resident of Florida sought entry to Canada and was referred for a secondary examination. During the exam, officers discovered an undeclared firearm in a duffle bag in his truck. The driver was arrested and admitted to being in possession of another firearm in another bag in his vehicle. Both weapons were loaded and in holsters, one of them with an additional overcapacity magazine. The driver had a permit to carry a concealed weapon in Florida but failed to declare any weapons at primary inspection.

A total of 13 charges were laid against the traveller, which include three counts of Fail to Report Imported Goods, three counts of Smuggling and one count of Making False Statements under the Customs Act, as well as two counts of Unauthorized Possession of a Firearm, two counts of Possession of a Loaded Prohibited Firearm and two counts of Careless Transportation of a Firearm under the Criminal Code. His next court appearance is scheduled for June 2, 2017, in Brockville, Ontario.

On May, 9, 2017, a 26-year-old resident of North Carolina sought entry to Canada to attend a funeral. He was referred for a secondary examination, during which officers discovered a rifle round in the door of his vehicle. Upon further examination, officers also discovered a firearm and a loaded magazine under the back seat.

The traveller was arrested and charged with Fail to Report Imported Goods, Making False Statements, Evading Compliance and Smuggling under the Customs Act, as well as Unauthorized Possession of a Firearm, Possession of a Loaded Weapon and Careless Transportation of a Firearm under the Criminal Code. His next court appearance is scheduled for June 30, 2017, in Brockville, Ontario.
 
kimimm19
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:00 am

KTPAFlyer wrote:
nitepilot79 wrote:
I'm kind of surprised 100 bullets made it through security leaving the US."


This is definitely not a surprise. Any chance she was flying from MSP? :duck:

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/ ... tems-minn/



An absolute disgrace, especially TSA's response on the matter.
 
QueenoftheSkies
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:06 am

nitepilot79 wrote:
I'm kind of surprised 100 bullets made it through security leaving the US. Anyway, she's 60+ so I'd imagine that she'll probably just get a slap on the wrist...

http://www.newsweek.com/us-woman-dumps- ... can-633130

Article quote:

"For one U.S. citizen in her 60s, that something was 100 live bullets. Aftering arriving at Tokyo’s International Haneda Airport Wednesday with her husband to transfer to a flight to Southeast Asia, she noticed the bullets were in her bag and dumped them in a trash can, Japan Times reported. Police arrested the woman, who has not yet been named, on suspicion of bringing 100 live bullets into to the country, which is in violation of Japan’s Firearm And Sword Control Law."


Imagine again. Japan is very strict with this sort of thing and the fact is she didn't voluntarily turn them over. She tried to get away with it by disposing of them. Knee jerk reaction? Sure but nonetheless doesn't paint an old "innocent" lady picture.
 
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OA940
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:01 am

CO953 wrote:
Very interesting. A couple months ago on a thread where someone asked about transporting firearms, I described something like this happening to me.

At LAX back about 2004 I was at the ticketing counter checking in and while reaching into my backpack for the printed itinerary I discovered a single stray bullet in the pocket which had somehow become folded into a seam due to a gap in the stitching. I immediately declared it to the ticketing agent (it was United Airlines if I recall correctly) and asked what I should do. She said that it was up to me ..... As I had been dropped off - had no ride or vehicle- I asked if the airport had a disposal procedure or whether I should throw it in a trash can or what? The agent repeated her non-response. I was not too happy because it was not that long after 9/11 and I figured that the airports should have some sort of procedure. I would have been happy to wait a few minutes and turn it over to an airport policeman or something.

Faced with the unhelpful non-response, and not being in a position to transport myself out of the airport, I simply walked to the curb and dropped it into a trash can, then returned to the counter and checked in.

With so many conflicting and overlapping weapons laws across the world, I don't approve of anyone being detained or charged for an an honest oversight, if they immediately declare the mistake. There has to be some room still reserved for the human factor in air travel, and the occasional human mistake. Same thing applies to anyone not aware of New York's repeated (unconstitutional) detention of passengers who have legally checked a firearm in another state of flight origin and then transited through a New York airport on the way to somewhere else and been ambushed by police during the stop-over. This violates the transit protections of the Commerce clause of the Constitution that allows your Pennsylvania driver's license, for example, to be valid for driving through Wyoming on a vacation. It should apply to a passenger in transit, but of course certain American states nowadays feel free to make their own laws just like in 1861. :old:

I hope that the situation in Japan will be solved sensibly and quickly. Every man-hour applied to something like this detracts from man-hours applied to true threats......


I guess you dodged a bullet by not getting arrested :duck: :spin:
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Andy33
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:11 am

I'm British. The UK has no restrictions at all on people bringing small amounts of fresh fruit into the country in their hand baggage, and no concept at all of Customs Declaration Forms.
The US has strict, and pretty impenetrable, regulations about personal imports of fresh fruit, to the extent that you're advised to declare it, and let CBP sort it out. If they think the fruit is banned coming from a particular country, you lose it. But if you don't declare it, you get fined.
When I visit the USA I'm expected to know this, even though it is totally different from how my own country works. If I don't, I pay the price.

I really don't see why, given the US imposes (for good biosecurity reasons) restrictions on what I can bring into the USA and exacts penalties if I don't follow the correct procedure, which I'm expected to know or find out for myself, other countries can't impose (in the interests of the safety of their citizens) restrictions on what can be taken into their country, and impose penalties if they fail to follow the correct procedure. This lady certainly didn't walk up to a Japanese customs officer and say that she'd accidentally brought the bullets with her, which would certainly have avoided most of the trouble she found herself in.

I can think of many countries where depositing live bullets in a waste bin at an airport would initially be regarded as potentially part of a terrorist incident and result in several hours or days of unpleasant interviews before "forgetfulness" would be accepted as the reason.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:33 am

Americans don't own the world, so when traveling abroad they should be aware of this. Firearms with foreigners are problematic at best.

But let me ask another question, why would anyone feel the need to travel with 100 bullets anyway. That is an overkill by any standards.

FlyHappy wrote:
I love this story for nothing more than the "Firearm And Sword Control Law" ! So cool, and feudal and just plain Japanese !


:checkmark:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
smokeybandit
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:02 pm

What threat are the bullets? She going to throw them at people?
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:07 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
What threat are the bullets? She going to throw them at people?


It is banned, simple. It is not different from taking your stash of marijuana travelling.

And anyway, somebody else could be travelling with the gun.
Last edited by mjoelnir on Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
fsabo
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:21 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
KTPAFlyer wrote:
nitepilot79 wrote:
I'm kind of surprised 100 bullets made it through security leaving the US."


This is definitely not a surprise. Any chance she was flying from MSP? :duck:

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/ ... tems-minn/



An absolute disgrace, especially TSA's response on the matter.


It is a disgrace, especially when considering the new stricter screening for USA bound flights.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:07 pm

Andy33 wrote:
I really don't see why, given the US imposes (for good biosecurity reasons) restrictions on what I can bring into the USA and exacts penalties if I don't follow the correct procedure, which I'm expected to know or find out for myself, other countries can't impose (in the interests of the safety of their citizens) restrictions on what can be taken into their country, and impose penalties if they fail to follow the correct procedure. This lady certainly didn't walk up to a Japanese customs officer and say that she'd accidentally brought the bullets with her, which would certainly have avoided most of the trouble she found herself in.


The issue is the lack of owning up to the mistake and contrition as much as anything. The articles posted upthread about incidents at the US-Canada border are instructive. In each case, most of the charges relate to smuggling and lying to authorities, not to the prohibited item. I cannot remember the last time that I drove into Canada and did not get a question or two about whether I had firearms with me.

Likewise, I've had US customs officials look the other way when I told them honestly that I was slightly over the duty free limit. I'm sure the experience would have been much less pleasant if they had found out on their own during a secondary search. In my experience, the very different consequences between owning up to the mistake or ignorance and trying to hide it is pretty much universal.
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Dutchy
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:14 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
What threat are the bullets? She going to throw them at people?


It is banned, simple. It is not different from taking your stash of marijuana travelling.


:checkmark: :checkmark:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
nitepilot79
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:50 pm

KTPAFlyer wrote:
nitepilot79 wrote:
I'm kind of surprised 100 bullets made it through security leaving the US."


This is definitely not a surprise. Any chance she was flying from MSP? :duck:

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/ ... tems-minn/


It's amazing what gets through and what doesn't. At SAV they have a section of wall with all kinds of confiscated weapons (back in 1998, anyway). Knives, guns. Grenade too.
 
Natflyer
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:31 pm

I guess the lady never thought her purse was on the heavy side? I know my wife would'nt notice if I put a brick into one of her gargantuan purses (aka black holes)...
 
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c933103
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:44 pm

CO953 wrote:
With so many conflicting and overlapping weapons laws across the world, I don't approve of anyone being detained or charged for an an honest oversight, if they immediately declare the mistake.

What conflicting and overlapping weapons laws? If my understanding is correct, UN via IATA have relevant regulations that disallow bringing ammunition onto flight in carry on bag.
I hope that the situation in Japan will be solved sensibly and quickly. Every man-hour applied to something like this detracts from man-hours applied to true threats......

smokeybandit wrote:
What threat are the bullets? She going to throw them at people?

Are you trying to imply this is not a threat? It could have been picked up by others and smuggle into Japan.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate.
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777PHX
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:40 pm

QueenoftheSkies wrote:
nitepilot79 wrote:
I'm kind of surprised 100 bullets made it through security leaving the US. Anyway, she's 60+ so I'd imagine that she'll probably just get a slap on the wrist...

http://www.newsweek.com/us-woman-dumps- ... can-633130

Article quote:

"For one U.S. citizen in her 60s, that something was 100 live bullets. Aftering arriving at Tokyo’s International Haneda Airport Wednesday with her husband to transfer to a flight to Southeast Asia, she noticed the bullets were in her bag and dumped them in a trash can, Japan Times reported. Police arrested the woman, who has not yet been named, on suspicion of bringing 100 live bullets into to the country, which is in violation of Japan’s Firearm And Sword Control Law."


Imagine again. Japan is very strict with this sort of thing and the fact is she didn't voluntarily turn them over. She tried to get away with it by disposing of them. Knee jerk reaction? Sure but nonetheless doesn't paint an old "innocent" lady picture.


:sarcastic:

Yeah, ok. I don't think a 60 year old lady who inadvertently left some cartridges in her bag is public enemy number one. She still would have been charged if she had turned them over so she had nothing to lose by trying to dump them.
 
johns624
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:47 pm

This leads me to believe that Haneda must have some pretty good high definition closed circuit TV cameras in operation. If she didn't notice the weight, it must have been 22 rimfire. That's why I never use my range bags for traveling or vice versa.
 
Bostrom
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:03 pm

777PHX wrote:
Yeah, ok. I don't think a 60 year old lady who inadvertently left some cartridges in her bag is public enemy number one. She still would have been charged if she had turned them over so she had nothing to lose by trying to dump them.


I'm not sure about the Japanese laws, but she might have had a lot to lose. Had it been in Europe it could have turned a minor crime into a major crime.
 
777PHX
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:04 pm

johns624 wrote:
This leads me to believe that Haneda must have some pretty good high definition closed circuit TV cameras in operation. If she didn't notice the weight, it must have been 22 rimfire. That's why I never use my range bags for traveling or vice versa.


I'm curious how they caught her, I would think it would have had to have been in the act, no?

Next time, go to the bathroom and flush them down the toilet or just throw them away.
 
Armodeen
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:08 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
What threat are the bullets? She going to throw them at people?


Dead drop them in the bin for some unsavory character to collect later. This might have been an innocent mistake, but you have to come down hard to prevent the less innocent from trying their hand.
 
luftaom
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:19 pm

777PHX wrote:

Yeah, ok. I don't think a 60 year old lady who inadvertently left some cartridges in her bag is public enemy number one. She still would have been charged if she had turned them over so she had nothing to lose by trying to dump them.


Agree with you on public enemy number 1 comment but not on the nothing to lose comment. Unless Japan has mandatory sentences for offences like this - I would imagine that reporting the bullets (and your mistake) and handing them in (rather than just dumping them in the bin) would go a long way towards reducing the penalty. It certainly would in England and Australia. Heck in England or Australia it wouldn't be outside the realms of possibility for the end result to be just a (police) caution. Dumping 100 bullets in an airport bin is quite different to calmly finding the airport police office and declaring (for want of a better word) them.
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CO953
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:37 pm

Regarding the posts upthread about crossing into Canada with firearms: (Sorry, the quote feature somehow isn't working for me):

I wonder if Canadian entry law has changed since 1999? I was traveling alone by car on an extended sightseeing trip, which is why I had a pistol with me for personal protection (America is very VERY large, and there are plenty of lonely roads which have no cell service or any hope of assistance in an emergency, which makes a legal weapon as sensible as packing extra radiator hoses and fan belts.)

I ended up touring the Olympic Peninsula in far northwestern Washington state, and stayed overnight in Port Angeles, which is a ferry ride away from Vancouver Island. I really, REALLY wanted to take the ferry to Victoria, B.C., as I had already toured the San Juan Islands that week. However, I had researched Canadian law, and I could not find any legal way to bring my legal firearm with me on the ferry, even in a locked case in my trunk., and read some severe warnings of vehicle inspections and what would happen were I caught. I wished there were at least something simple like some rentable lockers at the ferry terminal. However, I could figure out no way to visit Victoria without resorting to something like digging a hole in the woods off a Washington-state back road and temporarily leaving the weapon there as I toured Vancouver Island. :sorry:

Does Canada now allow entry of firearms by sea or by air at all?
 
CO953
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:41 pm

Armodeen wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
What threat are the bullets? She going to throw them at people?


Dead drop them in the bin for some unsavory character to collect later. This might have been an innocent mistake, but you have to come down hard to prevent the less innocent from trying their hand.


I had this exact thought back in '04 at LAX as I discarded my single bullet I found in a backpack pocket in a curbside trash can. I was innocent, but I could see a bad actor doing something else. Which is why I think that some procedure should be put in place, worldwide, to consider airports an "amnesty" zone - in which travelers who have mistakenly transported a weapon or ammunition from a place where it was allowed to a place where it wasn't allowed, are allowed to throw a "flag" on themselves and immediately declare the mistake to security. Accidental transportation does happen, and I see no benefit in spending security resources in prosecuting someone who immediately in good faith owns up.

(Obviously, to prevent abuse and to prevent temptation for security to collude with a bad actor, some database record would have to be kept of the mistake so that an individual would not be allowed to repeatedly make such "mistakes" without consequence.)
 
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c933103
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:08 pm

CO953 wrote:
Armodeen wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
What threat are the bullets? She going to throw them at people?


Dead drop them in the bin for some unsavory character to collect later. This might have been an innocent mistake, but you have to come down hard to prevent the less innocent from trying their hand.


I had this exact thought back in '04 at LAX as I discarded my single bullet I found in a backpack pocket in a curbside trash can. I was innocent, but I could see a bad actor doing something else. Which is why I think that some procedure should be put in place, worldwide, to consider airports an "amnesty" zone - in which travelers who have mistakenly transported a weapon or ammunition from a place where it was allowed to a place where it wasn't allowed, are allowed to throw a "flag" on themselves and immediately declare the mistake to security. Accidental transportation does happen, and I see no benefit in spending security resources in prosecuting someone who immediately in good faith owns up.

(Obviously, to prevent abuse and to prevent temptation for security to collude with a bad actor, some database record would have to be kept of the mistake so that an individual would not be allowed to repeatedly make such "mistakes" without consequence.)

Instead of telling every other countries in the world to setup a special policy to accomodate travellers from relatively minor portion of the world which are used to guns and have lax security check that caused troubles everywhere, I think it would be easier if those countries tries to tighten its security measures.
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:24 pm

CO953 wrote:
Regarding the posts upthread about crossing into Canada with firearms: (Sorry, the quote feature somehow isn't working for me):

I wonder if Canadian entry law has changed since 1999? I was traveling alone by car on an extended sightseeing trip, which is why I had a pistol with me for personal protection (America is very VERY large, and there are plenty of lonely roads which have no cell service or any hope of assistance in an emergency, which makes a legal weapon as sensible as packing extra radiator hoses and fan belts.)

I ended up touring the Olympic Peninsula in far northwestern Washington state, and stayed overnight in Port Angeles, which is a ferry ride away from Vancouver Island. I really, REALLY wanted to take the ferry to Victoria, B.C., as I had already toured the San Juan Islands that week. However, I had researched Canadian law, and I could not find any legal way to bring my legal firearm with me on the ferry, even in a locked case in my trunk., and read some severe warnings of vehicle inspections and what would happen were I caught. I wished there were at least something simple like some rentable lockers at the ferry terminal. However, I could figure out no way to visit Victoria without resorting to something like digging a hole in the woods off a Washington-state back road and temporarily leaving the weapon there as I toured Vancouver Island. :sorry:

Does Canada now allow entry of firearms by sea or by air at all?


Was it the Canadian laws that prevented you from visiting Vancouver island, or the ferry operator's own rules on what you could bring on board?
 
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:33 pm

CO953 wrote:
Very interesting. A couple months ago on a thread where someone asked about transporting firearms, I described something like this happening to me.

At LAX back about 2004 I was at the ticketing counter checking in and while reaching into my backpack for the printed itinerary I discovered a single stray bullet in the pocket which had somehow become folded into a seam due to a gap in the stitching. I immediately declared it to the ticketing agent (it was United Airlines if I recall correctly) and asked what I should do. She said that it was up to me ..... As I had been dropped off - had no ride or vehicle- I asked if the airport had a disposal procedure or whether I should throw it in a trash can or what? The agent repeated her non-response. I was not too happy because it was not that long after 9/11 and I figured that the airports should have some sort of procedure. I would have been happy to wait a few minutes and turn it over to an airport policeman or something.

Faced with the unhelpful non-response, and not being in a position to transport myself out of the airport, I simply walked to the curb and dropped it into a trash can, then returned to the counter and checked in.

With so many conflicting and overlapping weapons laws across the world, I don't approve of anyone being detained or charged for an an honest oversight, if they immediately declare the mistake. There has to be some room still reserved for the human factor in air travel, and the occasional human mistake. Same thing applies to anyone not aware of New York's repeated (unconstitutional) detention of passengers who have legally checked a firearm in another state of flight origin and then transited through a New York airport on the way to somewhere else and been ambushed by police during the stop-over. This violates the transit protections of the Commerce clause of the Constitution that allows your Pennsylvania driver's license, for example, to be valid for driving through Wyoming on a vacation. It should apply to a passenger in transit, but of course certain American states nowadays feel free to make their own laws just like in 1861. :old:

I hope that the situation in Japan will be solved sensibly and quickly. Every man-hour applied to something like this detracts from man-hours applied to true threats......


You dropped a live bullet into a trash can. I would say that is the wrong thing to do. So no regard for gun safety on your part. You should know better as a gun owner. You should have "bit the bullet and told security what happened and asked them to despose of it safely.
 
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:48 pm

spacecadet wrote:
In Japan, a person carrying 100 live bullets around is considered a major threat to public safety. It would be like somebody walking around with a baggie full of anthrax at JFK Airport, dumping it in the middle of the terminal, then claiming ignorance when they were arrested. We would (rightly) tell that person that we really don't care if they knew our laws or not - if they didn't, they should have.

Bad comparison. Anthrax is a biological material, not the same as a bullet, which sits around doing nothing until the primer is struck.

Natflyer wrote:
I guess the lady never thought her purse was on the heavy side? I know my wife would'nt notice if I put a brick into one of her gargantuan purses (aka black holes)...

Same with my wife, but then she goes through tiny purse phases.
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:57 pm

c933103 wrote:
Instead of telling every other countries in the world to setup a special policy to accomodate travellers from relatively minor portion of the world which are used to guns and have lax security check that caused troubles everywhere, I think it would be easier if those countries tries to tighten its security measures.

You are right that TSA should have detected the bullets.

Puzzled by your "minor part of the world" comment.
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VSMUT
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:05 pm

CO953 wrote:
With so many conflicting and overlapping weapons laws across the world,


What do you mean with "many and conflicting"? There are only 2 ways across the world when it comes to guns, the guns/ammuntion forbidden places, and the US+Somalia. Pretty much the entire world has agreed not to go the American way when it comes to guns.
 
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:07 am

VSMUT wrote:
CO953 wrote:
With so many conflicting and overlapping weapons laws across the world,


What do you mean with "many and conflicting"? There are only 2 ways across the world when it comes to guns, the guns/ammuntion forbidden places, and the US+Somalia. Pretty much the entire world has agreed not to go the American way when it comes to guns.


Clearly the rest of the world isn't as enlightened as the US and Somalia when it comes to firearms and ammunition. ;)
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LamboAston
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:25 am

bgm wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
CO953 wrote:
With so many conflicting and overlapping weapons laws across the world,


What do you mean with "many and conflicting"? There are only 2 ways across the world when it comes to guns, the guns/ammuntion forbidden places, and the US+Somalia. Pretty much the entire world has agreed not to go the American way when it comes to guns.


Clearly the rest of the world isn't as enlightened as the US and Somalia when it comes to firearms and ammunition. ;)

More like the rest of the world has more than a grain of sense in their heads. Other places around the world, pistols aren't even legal to own (New Zealand), and shooting injuries are far lower per 100,000 people. Maybe the US and Somalia aren't as enlightened as the rest of the world when it comes to firearm safety and ownership
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UltimoTiger777
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:49 am

VSMUT wrote:
CO953 wrote:
With so many conflicting and overlapping weapons laws across the world,


What do you mean with "many and conflicting"? There are only 2 ways across the world when it comes to guns, the guns/ammuntion forbidden places, and the US+Somalia. Pretty much the entire world has agreed not to go the American way when it comes to guns.


That's a bit of strange statement. Lots of countries allow firearms ownership and the differences in legislation between them can vary massively. Japan is an example of somewhere with very strict firearms laws. On the other hand, you could go to the Czech Republic where people can carry concealed firearms. Then you could fly to the UK where people can own shotguns but due to a ban on handguns, the Olympic shooting team has to practice overseas.

The US certainly has the most liberal gun laws but that doesn't make them the exception in terms of allowing ownership.
 
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:06 am

johns624 wrote:
This leads me to believe that Haneda must have some pretty good high definition closed circuit TV cameras in operation. If she didn't notice the weight, it must have been 22 rimfire. That's why I never use my range bags for traveling or vice versa.

I never put a gun or ammo in anything but the proper case, ammo can, or my range bag. I couldn't tell you within a hundred rounds of how much ammo is in some cans, but I can tell you exactly what locked container every round I possess is in.(I have kids, curious kids.)

This makes gun owners look bad.

But as to the weight, a hundred rounds of most pistol is pretty light. I wouldn't notice that much weight in my laptop bag.

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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:16 am

LamboAston wrote:
Other places around the world, pistols aren't even legal to own (New Zealand), and shooting injuries are far lower per 100,000 people.

Except for the fact that handguns are legal in New Zealand, they just require a special license. There goes that argument...
http://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-co ... ealand.php
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_New_Zealand
 
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:24 am

smokeybandit wrote:
What threat are the bullets? She going to throw them at people?


No, put them in someone else's gun. If she's actually a bad actor, then she may not be acting alone. Others in her little bad actor band might have the firearm, or other weapons. Now yes, I know she seems to have just been a little old lady but to security types, they can't let things like this just lapse. We had a situation where I work where one person threatened to kill a staffer. He brought the gun. Other people were supposedly going to bring the bullets. The local sheriff was running around interviewing and investigating multiple people even though only one person actually had the weapon. It all comes down to what you have access to. It may sound farfetched, but that's actually the concern.
 
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:24 am

CO953 wrote:
Regarding the posts upthread about crossing into Canada with firearms: (Sorry, the quote feature somehow isn't working for me):
Does Canada now allow entry of firearms by sea or by air at all?
Yes they do. They are quite restricted, though. Rifles and shotguns for hunting purposes have to be declared on entry. Handguns are much harder. You must be at least a seasonal resident and have a Canadian firearms ownership license (PAL). You might also be able to get in if you are going to an official target competition and have paperwork proving it. It's something that has to be planned well ahead of time. Your best bet, if you are ever in that situation again, is to find a local gun dealer who will take your gun in for "cleaning".
 
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:28 am

rbavfan wrote:
CO953 wrote:
Very interesting. A couple months ago on a thread where someone asked about transporting firearms, I described something like this happening to me.

At LAX back about 2004 I was at the ticketing counter checking in and while reaching into my backpack for the printed itinerary I discovered a single stray bullet in the pocket which had somehow become folded into a seam due to a gap in the stitching. I immediately declared it to the ticketing agent (it was United Airlines if I recall correctly) and asked what I should do. She said that it was up to me ..... As I had been dropped off - had no ride or vehicle- I asked if the airport had a disposal procedure or whether I should throw it in a trash can or what? The agent repeated her non-response. I was not too happy because it was not that long after 9/11 and I figured that the airports should have some sort of procedure. I would have been happy to wait a few minutes and turn it over to an airport policeman or something.

Faced with the unhelpful non-response, and not being in a position to transport myself out of the airport, I simply walked to the curb and dropped it into a trash can, then returned to the counter and checked in.

With so many conflicting and overlapping weapons laws across the world, I don't approve of anyone being detained or charged for an an honest oversight, if they immediately declare the mistake. There has to be some room still reserved for the human factor in air travel, and the occasional human mistake. Same thing applies to anyone not aware of New York's repeated (unconstitutional) detention of passengers who have legally checked a firearm in another state of flight origin and then transited through a New York airport on the way to somewhere else and been ambushed by police during the stop-over. This violates the transit protections of the Commerce clause of the Constitution that allows your Pennsylvania driver's license, for example, to be valid for driving through Wyoming on a vacation. It should apply to a passenger in transit, but of course certain American states nowadays feel free to make their own laws just like in 1861. :old:

I hope that the situation in Japan will be solved sensibly and quickly. Every man-hour applied to something like this detracts from man-hours applied to true threats......


You dropped a live bullet into a trash can. I would say that is the wrong thing to do. So no regard for gun safety on your part. You should know better as a gun owner. You should have "bit the bullet and told security what happened and asked them to despose of it safely.



Instead of biting the bullet and risking arrest just tell a leo, omg look what I just found on the sidewalk, your welcome
 
Virtual737
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:36 am

I'm always intrigued when a US citizen gets anywhere close to the "ignorance of the law of a foreign country" argument. USA itself is a single country, but in reality it is not in terms of the law. Driving from Lake Havasu back to Las Vegas in the late 1990s I was stopped by police soon after crossing into California (I took a different route on the way back). The officer asked me if I had anything to declare or anything illegal on me. As always, I replied very politely that I didn't. Then ensued a reasonably stern lecture that the orange sat on my passenger seat (which I had purchased at the roadside not 5 minutes earlier) was the greatest threat to humanity the officer had seen that day and clearly I was stupid.

What I'm getting at is... if there is any nation that should be aware of differing laws to the ones of their own residence, it's probably the USA, where an orange needs to be destroyed because it wasn't purchased in the same State. I was scolded for an orange, damned right she should be scolded for 100 live bullets.
 
CO953
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:12 am

[/quote]

You dropped a live bullet into a trash can. I would say that is the wrong thing to do. So no regard for gun safety on your part. You should know better as a gun owner. You should have "bit the bullet and told security what happened and asked them to despose of it safely.[/quote]


I did report the bullet. I did ask to dispose of it safely. I was told that it was my problem and that there was no policy.
 
CO953
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:16 am

LamboAston wrote:
bgm wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

What do you mean with "many and conflicting"? There are only 2 ways across the world when it comes to guns, the guns/ammuntion forbidden places, and the US+Somalia. Pretty much the entire world has agreed not to go the American way when it comes to guns.


Clearly the rest of the world isn't as enlightened as the US and Somalia when it comes to firearms and ammunition. ;)

More like the rest of the world has more than a grain of sense in their heads. Other places around the world, pistols aren't even legal to own (New Zealand), and shooting injuries are far lower per 100,000 people. Maybe the US and Somalia aren't as enlightened as the rest of the world when it comes to firearm safety and ownership


Maybe some of we Americans are enlightened as to the fact that the police are only minutes away when seconds count to save your life. You'd think that with the mass killings going on around the world where not one citizen has a weapon to protect themselves and others, that self-satisfied smug people might start taking another look at the height of their horses.... and asking themselves exactly what is enlightened about surrendering the right to self-defense. :smile:
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:02 am

CO953 wrote:
LamboAston wrote:
bgm wrote:

Clearly the rest of the world isn't as enlightened as the US and Somalia when it comes to firearms and ammunition. ;)

More like the rest of the world has more than a grain of sense in their heads. Other places around the world, pistols aren't even legal to own (New Zealand), and shooting injuries are far lower per 100,000 people. Maybe the US and Somalia aren't as enlightened as the rest of the world when it comes to firearm safety and ownership


Maybe some of we Americans are enlightened as to the fact that the police are only minutes away when seconds count to save your life. You'd think that with the mass killings going on around the world where not one citizen has a weapon to protect themselves and others, that self-satisfied smug people might start taking another look at the height of their horses.... and asking themselves exactly what is enlightened about surrendering the right to self-defense. :smile:


In other high-income countries, gun homicides are unusual events, even with the recent increase in terrorist activity. In the US, gun homicides are a significant public health concern. For men 15 to 29, they are the third-leading cause of death, after accidents and suicides.

With guns being as common as they are in the US, with a very low bar for access to guns, I'm not surprised at the frequency of Americans getting caught whenever they go overseas with firearms. The rest of the world does not take lightly the possession of firearms in their country, and tightly control access and availability of firearms.

Witness how many times Americans get caught at the Canadian border with undeclared firearms (with the charges that result) as I noted before, and it is getting to the point where CBSA launches frequent awareness campaigns in American media outlets to warn American travelers to leave their guns at home. A couple of CBSA officers I know of that work the land border crossings tell me about the frequency of them turn Americans away when the visitor tells them they have a gun in the vehicle. It happens way more often than you think.

johns624 wrote:
CO953 wrote:
Regarding the posts upthread about crossing into Canada with firearms: (Sorry, the quote feature somehow isn't working for me):
Does Canada now allow entry of firearms by sea or by air at all?
Yes they do. They are quite restricted, though. Rifles and shotguns for hunting purposes have to be declared on entry. Handguns are much harder. You must be at least a seasonal resident and have a Canadian firearms ownership license (PAL). You might also be able to get in if you are going to an official target competition and have paperwork proving it. It's something that has to be planned well ahead of time. Your best bet, if you are ever in that situation again, is to find a local gun dealer who will take your gun in for "cleaning".

For a unrestricted firearm, you will need form RCMP 5589 Non-Resident Firearm Declaration, with a $25 dollar processing fee, plus a valid reason for bringing the weapon into the country (e.g. hunting, use in competitions, repair, re-enactments, in-transit movements, and protection against wildlife in remote areas).

For a restricted firearm, you will need the above, plus a authorization to transport, which you will need to get from the Canadian Firearms Program or from the nearest CBSA office.

Prohibited firearms, devices and weapons are just that; prohibited. Not allowed into Canada, period.
 
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bgm
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:14 am

CO953 wrote:
LamboAston wrote:
bgm wrote:

Clearly the rest of the world isn't as enlightened as the US and Somalia when it comes to firearms and ammunition. ;)

More like the rest of the world has more than a grain of sense in their heads. Other places around the world, pistols aren't even legal to own (New Zealand), and shooting injuries are far lower per 100,000 people. Maybe the US and Somalia aren't as enlightened as the rest of the world when it comes to firearm safety and ownership


Maybe some of we Americans are enlightened as to the fact that the police are only minutes away when seconds count to save your life. You'd think that with the mass killings going on around the world where not one citizen has a weapon to protect themselves and others, that self-satisfied smug people might start taking another look at the height of their horses.... and asking themselves exactly what is enlightened about surrendering the right to self-defense. :smile:


Most other countries don't have guns to begin with, so there is less danger. Then you have countries like Australia who used to be like the US and realised that it was madness and changed their laws and severely restricted firearm ownership.
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mjoelnir
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:48 am

CO953 wrote:
LamboAston wrote:
bgm wrote:

Clearly the rest of the world isn't as enlightened as the US and Somalia when it comes to firearms and ammunition. ;)

More like the rest of the world has more than a grain of sense in their heads. Other places around the world, pistols aren't even legal to own (New Zealand), and shooting injuries are far lower per 100,000 people. Maybe the US and Somalia aren't as enlightened as the rest of the world when it comes to firearm safety and ownership


Maybe some of we Americans are enlightened as to the fact that the police are only minutes away when seconds count to save your life. You'd think that with the mass killings going on around the world where not one citizen has a weapon to protect themselves and others, that self-satisfied smug people might start taking another look at the height of their horses.... and asking themselves exactly what is enlightened about surrendering the right to self-defense. :smile:


Perhaps some USA citizen do not get it. The USA is the country with the most gun violence, the most gun suicides and the most gun accidents per 100,000 inhabitant in the western world. Terrorism, some are so worried about, is nothing compared with the weekly or daily mass shooting. When somebody drives to slowly in front of you, you shoot him.

There seems to be one solution in the USA add more guns to the mix, with more gun death, more gun suicides and more gun accidents. Repeat and repeat.

Albert Einstein said insanity is doing the same over and over again and expecting a different result.

Be happy, have your guns in your USA, kill each other, but do not try to export your gun culture, we do not want it. And start to realise, that forgetting your gun and or your ammunition in your luggage, is bringing something that is banned on your travel when you do it internationally and authorities take it badly when you smuggle it over borders.
It is banned, simply, like heroin or your marijuana stash, or trying to smuggle the wrong kind of food into the USA.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Woman Ditches Bullets In Haneda Trashcan And Gets Detained

Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:54 am

The US can do what they like with their gun laws. I'm not a citizen and I now rarely visit. However, when US citizens want to preach that in their opinion they are safer or feel better or feel bigger or whatever because of their rights under the 2nd amendment then perhaps they should also listen to differing opinion. That differing opinion may or may not change their minds, but, OIMHO, listening to differing opinions and first asking oneself if perhaps that opinion has merit BEFORE shouting it down as a total violation of a right that their ancient relatives (that they never met and might not like if they did) fought for gives validation to the opinion and, perhaps, shows intelligence.

For me it's the "I'm right and you're wrong and I'm so sure of it that I wont even listen to differing opinion" attitude (that we can all be guilty of) that I find more comical than the actual topic itself. I find it comical rather than irritating / annoying because it's better for my health.
Last edited by Virtual737 on Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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