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evanb
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:37 pm

DL777200LR wrote:
Well right now they have a A340 stranded in JFK for a week with no end in sight due to fuel additives geling the fuel system which will require extensive cleaning and possibly all 4 engines changed. It will be interesting to see how it plays out considering SAA’s financial difficulties. Shipping all the equipment, engines and other parts will be quite expensive.


Sounds like something that would be covered by insurance or someone else's insurance. How did this occur?
 
DL777200LR
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:16 pm

evanb wrote:
DL777200LR wrote:
Well right now they have a A340 stranded in JFK for a week with no end in sight due to fuel additives geling the fuel system which will require extensive cleaning and possibly all 4 engines changed. It will be interesting to see how it plays out considering SAA’s financial difficulties. Shipping all the equipment, engines and other parts will be quite expensive.


Sounds like something that would be covered by insurance or someone else's insurance. How did this occur?


Either too much additives were added or a bad batch of additives contaminated the fuel systems.
Nothing better than the sound of a 77W GE90-115B on engine start.
 
SelseyBill
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:10 pm

Slug71 wrote:
Geez.

Would joining IAG help them since they obviously can't find good management?


I'm sure WW would straighten them out given the chance; but I have always felt SAA joined the wrong alliance.

As a 'Oneworld' partner, SAA would have BA, QF, Latam, QR and AA for friends, offering some mouthwatering 'Gateways' for SAA; MIA for connections all over the USA; Latam for S.America, Doha for Middle East, LHR for Europe etc. 'Oneworld' seems to me a better 'fit' for SAA than 'Star'.
 
scotron11
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:25 pm

Well, I guess another question is why Dudu Myeni was allowed to chair SAA for so long? A school teacher heading a major airline...no wonder SAA is in trouble,
 
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LAXintl
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:45 pm

SAA finally published its long delayed 2016/2017 earnings. Carrier lost USD$484mil for the period ended March 2017 up from USD$136m year prior.

https://www.reuters.com/article/saa-res ... SJ8N1QO018
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:51 pm

"Jarana said a news conference that the airline was in talks with unions about reducing staff costs and expected the airline to break even by 2021."

Really, is there anyone here that believes that? :rotfl:
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Slug71
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:39 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
"Jarana said a news conference that the airline was in talks with unions about reducing staff costs and expected the airline to break even by 2021."

Really, is there anyone here that believes that? :rotfl:


Smh...

"Staff costs" are the least of their concerns. 2021 is also extremely unlikely/unrealistic. I suppose a lot will hinge on next year's election and whether more will be done to curb the corruption though.
 
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MoKa777
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:18 pm

Slug71 wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
"Jarana said a news conference that the airline was in talks with unions about reducing staff costs and expected the airline to break even by 2021."

Really, is there anyone here that believes that? :rotfl:


Smh...

"Staff costs" are the least of their concerns. 2021 is also extremely unlikely/unrealistic. I suppose a lot will hinge on next year's election and whether more will be done to curb the corruption though.


I believe staff costs are a very big concern.
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
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Slug71
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:30 pm

MoKa777 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
"Jarana said a news conference that the airline was in talks with unions about reducing staff costs and expected the airline to break even by 2021."

Really, is there anyone here that believes that? :rotfl:


Smh...

"Staff costs" are the least of their concerns. 2021 is also extremely unlikely/unrealistic. I suppose a lot will hinge on next year's election and whether more will be done to curb the corruption though.


I believe staff costs are a very big concern.


How much of that is at the top of the chain, with fat paychecks(part of the corruption) though?
 
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MoKa777
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:06 pm

Slug71 wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:

Smh...

"Staff costs" are the least of their concerns. 2021 is also extremely unlikely/unrealistic. I suppose a lot will hinge on next year's election and whether more will be done to curb the corruption though.


I believe staff costs are a very big concern.


How much of that is at the top of the chain, with fat paychecks(part of the corruption) though?


That is true. Undeniable. SAA has a lot of problems. A LOT. These problems run deep and require the kind of action that no one in the current government will allow. Sad. SAA can be better than this...
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
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Slug71
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:12 pm

MoKa777 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:

I believe staff costs are a very big concern.


How much of that is at the top of the chain, with fat paychecks(part of the corruption) though?


That is true. Undeniable. SAA has a lot of problems. A LOT. These problems run deep and require the kind of action that no one in the current government will allow. Sad. SAA can be better than this...


Agreed.
Sad to see how much (my once home airline) SAA has fallen. But that is just one of many things unfortunately. Just hope the elections next year swing the opposite way.

My parents are currently there visiting. And flew SAA. I'm interested to hear of their experience when they get back.
 
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MoKa777
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:34 pm

Slug71 wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:

How much of that is at the top of the chain, with fat paychecks(part of the corruption) though?


That is true. Undeniable. SAA has a lot of problems. A LOT. These problems run deep and require the kind of action that no one in the current government will allow. Sad. SAA can be better than this...


Agreed.
Sad to see how much (my once home airline) SAA has fallen. But that is just one of many things unfortunately. Just hope the elections next year swing the opposite way.

My parents are currently there visiting. And flew SAA. I'm interested to hear of their experience when they get back.


I hope your parents enjoy their visit and have a good time.

My last experience with SAA was a pleasant, albeit short, one from start to finish. So, I hope their service is consistent and not a hit and miss situation.
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
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Slug71
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:47 pm

MoKa777 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:

That is true. Undeniable. SAA has a lot of problems. A LOT. These problems run deep and require the kind of action that no one in the current government will allow. Sad. SAA can be better than this...


Agreed.
Sad to see how much (my once home airline) SAA has fallen. But that is just one of many things unfortunately. Just hope the elections next year swing the opposite way.

My parents are currently there visiting. And flew SAA. I'm interested to hear of their experience when they get back.


I hope your parents enjoy their visit and have a good time.

My last experience with SAA was a pleasant, albeit short, one from start to finish. So, I hope their service is consistent and not a hit and miss situation.


Thank you. So far they are enjoying it. :smile:

They are in Cape Town and flew SAA from Perth. Not sure if they are flying the same route back, or straight to AKL. I imagine it would be the same route though. Not sure of the airline between AKL and PER though. Will update once they are back. But yes, hopefully it's consistent. The flight to SA was delayed by a day, but they were compensated with a nice hotel and meals. No seat upgrade as far as I'm aware.
 
Galwayman
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:48 pm

The banks must love SAA , perfect loan candidates .
In the US they have the chapter 11 nonsense and the ME3 have some sort of government support so this is how South Africa deals with things ...
 
jfk777
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:48 am

SAA should dump all their A340's as the first measure to staballize the airline. Fly all long hauls with A330 even if extra stops are required. Flying to Perth, Hong Kong or Singapore is not a requirement foe SAA. Flying nonstop from Johannesburg to JFK is not required either, stopping in Dakar or Abidijan saves gas. A330 have the legs to make Europe nonstop.
 
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tjcab
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:01 am

kjeld0d wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
Most people only remember the ANC has freedom fighters and forget the hardcore Marxist ideology that was at the core of the group. God help SA


Exactly. Hating the white man became the national pastime but what they didn't realize was that he kept the country together.


Really? Wow, what a simplistic and offensive remark to make! More like hating Apartheid. We shall not get into the historical and political factors that have resulted in, and continue to affect, the political and economic landscape that continues to affect the region.

Now, it does not matter what race you are. You can be successful like Ethiopian Airlines, and Rwanda, or a failure like (as others have said) Alitalia, or Greece.
 
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william
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:11 am

What exactly is wrong with SAA?
 
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Slug71
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:20 am

jfk777 wrote:
SAA should dump all their A340's as the first measure to staballize the airline. Fly all long hauls with A330 even if extra stops are required. Flying to Perth, Hong Kong or Singapore is not a requirement foe SAA. Flying nonstop from Johannesburg to JFK is not required either, stopping in Dakar or Abidijan saves gas. A330 have the legs to make Europe nonstop.


The A340 is the least of their problems. A LOT of South Africans live in Perth. And in Australia And NZ in general. Hong Kong and Singapore are generally layovers/fuel stops.
Not sure on the JFK load factors, but NY seems to be a popular tourist destination for South Africans too.

Does SAA fly to Thailand? That seems to be another popular destination.

tjcab wrote:
kjeld0d wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
Most people only remember the ANC has freedom fighters and forget the hardcore Marxist ideology that was at the core of the group. God help SA


Exactly. Hating the white man became the national pastime but what they didn't realize was that he kept the country together.


Really? Wow, what a simplistic and offensive remark to make!


It's true though. And is happening in the US now too.

william wrote:
What exactly is wrong with SAA?


Corruption.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:25 am

The new government's policy will likely exacerbate the airline's problems as why would certain people even want to visit South Africa? This is on top of corruption.
 
402679
Posts: 223
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:43 am

Last week I spend 3 days in South Africa, flying JJ/SA. The first leg, GRU-JNB was with JJ and their 767, taking around 10:30 hours because of the route. The return flight was with SAA and their A330. They were both enjoyable experiences.
 
B-HOP
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:48 pm

jfk777 wrote:
SAA should dump all their A340's as the first measure to staballize the airline. Fly all long hauls with A330 even if extra stops are required. Flying to Perth, Hong Kong or Singapore is not a requirement foe SAA. Flying nonstop from Johannesburg to JFK is not required either, stopping in Dakar or Abidijan saves gas. A330 have the legs to make Europe nonstop.


A340 is least of SAA's problem, bear that in mind much of SAA's widebody spend much of daytime sitting in Europe and Hong Kong whilst away from base and does the same when returned to JNB, it may fly 10-11 hours per day, the fuel saved not enough to offset the much higher lease rate for A330 (A340 can be had for MUCH MUCH cheaper) and extra crew cost for the stop. SA are competing with CX, with extensive network from Hong Kong, would you think a stop in CMB be competitive for SA, not to mention the current flights connect perfectly to NRT,ICN etc and this flight does well in cargo with sea food and wine being loaded, a 340 is needed with better hot and high perfformance. For NY, if they can move to EWR to join other STAR members, it would be much better. SA really needed a partner in East Africa and set up a base there with longhaul flights to CAN, LHR and maybe FRA, HKG, to shorten the time from Congo, Zambia, Nigeria etc to Far East (esp China) or they really need more co-operation with ET and tap into their far east network.

Kev
Live life to max!!!
 
evanb
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:00 pm

B-HOP wrote:
A340 is least of SAA's problem, bear that in mind much of SAA's widebody spend much of daytime sitting in Europe and Hong Kong whilst away from base and does the same when returned to JNB, it may fly 10-11 hours per day, the fuel saved not enough to offset the much higher lease rate for A330 (A340 can be had for MUCH MUCH cheaper) and extra crew cost for the stop.


Agreed, low utilization of the A340s are not problematic since many of them are owned and already depreciated to zero and are on power by the hour engine deals. The remaining leased ones are very cheap. All the leases have been renewed in the last few years at very favorable rates. The newer A330s, which are all leased, are much more expensive, and it's noticeable how much more utilization SAA get out of them.

B-HOP wrote:
SA are competing with CX, with extensive network from Hong Kong, would you think a stop in CMB be competitive for SA, not to mention the current flights connect perfectly to NRT,ICN etc and this flight does well in cargo with sea food and wine being loaded, a 340 is needed with better hot and high perfformance. For NY, if they can move to EWR to join other STAR members, it would be much better. SA really needed a partner in East Africa and set up a base there with longhaul flights to CAN, LHR and maybe FRA, HKG, to shorten the time from Congo, Zambia, Nigeria etc to Far East (esp China) or they really need more co-operation with ET and tap into their far east network.


Adding stops doesn't solve anything. What you gain in traffic and revenue is offset by the higher costs. Additionally, you might end up canibalizing some of your own yield with a less competitive product to the final destination. SAA's problems are structural: fiddling with the routes and the network is likely to have only marginal effect.

I'm not sure moving from JFK to EWR would be of any benefit. SAA have a notoriously tricky relationship with United, and it's not clear that they would get access to more capacity at EWR from United than they already get from JetBlue at JFK. Keep in mind that anything they gain at the margin from United at EWR must also be compared to access they already have from United at IAD. I think we're also missing the stronger O&D market at JFK. That said, FRA/MUC/JFK/IAD are really the only strong points in SAA's long haul network at the moment. No need to play with fire and fiddle too much.
 
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mercure1
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Fri May 11, 2018 10:14 pm

More money again!

The South African government has agreed to make a further cash infusion into its loss-making national carrier, . An SAA spokesman confirmed the government has committed to making a R5 billion ($407 million) cash injection into the airline. The new payment is the latest in a series of bailouts for the carrier—the most recent was less than a year ago.


http://atwonline.com/airlines/south-afr ... h-infusion
mercure f-wtcc
 
evanb
Posts: 908
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Fri May 11, 2018 11:11 pm

mercure1 wrote:
More money again!

The South African government has agreed to make a further cash infusion into its loss-making national carrier, . An SAA spokesman confirmed the government has committed to making a R5 billion ($407 million) cash injection into the airline. The new payment is the latest in a series of bailouts for the carrier—the most recent was less than a year ago.


You're missing a trick, they're paying over the cash, but this is because, until the end of last year, all previous bail-outs were debt guarantees. Now they're actually fulfilling these guarantees. There is a lot of double-counting going on.
 
piedfly
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:02 pm

From the article "President Cyril Ramaphosa has transferred the administration of South African Airways (SAA) back to the public enterprises ministry, headed by Pravin Gordhan. The struggling airline previously fell under the administration of the finance ministry, where it had been moved to from public enterprises."

Pravin Gordhan is trusted by most South Africans, hopefully under his watch he can help influence a 'turn-around'.

https://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/ram ... y-16356458

IOL also decided to put an A380 in SAA colours... maybe to jinx everything.
 
evanb
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:21 pm

piedfly wrote:
From the article "President Cyril Ramaphosa has transferred the administration of South African Airways (SAA) back to the public enterprises ministry, headed by Pravin Gordhan. The struggling airline previously fell under the administration of the finance ministry, where it had been moved to from public enterprises."

Pravin Gordhan is trusted by most South Africans, hopefully under his watch he can help influence a 'turn-around'.

https://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/ram ... y-16356458

IOL also decided to put an A380 in SAA colours... maybe to jinx everything.


The move from Public Enterprises to Treasury was an emergency measure a while back, ultimately because of the need for emergency.immediate cash flow interventions. Hopefully this move back implies a significant stabilization of cash flow to such en extent that emergency/immediate cash flow interventions from the Treasury won't be required in the short term.
 
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janders
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:57 pm

This is more akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
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LamboAston
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Re: SAA bailed out by government again

Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:46 am

I was still impressed by their regional catering - better than Qantas's long haul catering to and from Johannesburg by a long shot.
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