FlyHappy
Topic Author
Posts: 1071
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:11 pm

This is a sincere inquiry, to which I seek out information and thoughtful opinions.
This is not about the domestically Oligopolistic US4, the reputation for poor service, or the state of US airports.

It is about barring of non-US carriers flying US domestic routes.

I consistently read, and am occasionally told, that all kinds of ills are attributed to the protected position US carriers enjoy in their domestic market. Everything from their hypocrisy on ME3 subsidies (real or not), to why customer service is poor, to why fares are high, etc, etc. I am not questioning these particular points, but the initial assumption that there is something odd about domestic protection.

What other countries have a large domestic aviation market, which is open to foreign carriers? When I think about comparable markets, I think:

Russia
China
India
Australia

stretching a bit further, I can add:

Brazil
Japan
Indonesia

Do any of these countries have legitimate competition in their markets from foreign carriers? (I really don't know, I want to understand better)

Finally, that leaves the EU.
Yes, I get both that the EU/EFTA has a highly competitive open market, with sensible regulation, which has spawned loads of good LCC choices and seemingly healthy operations. RyanAir, EasyJet, Norwegian, et al. But if the EU/EFTA is viewed as a single "domestic" market does it really have foreign competition? I can appreciate what the EU has done (aviation and otherwise), but still fail to see it as a differing from the US in this respect.

I believe there are all kinds of reasons to love, hate or be indifferent towards the US3, but why is a protected domestic US market one of them, and isn't it more or less similar in the rest of the world?

Thoughtful insights welcomed.
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2143
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:11 pm

there​ was a discussion on this recently...:
viewtopic.php?t=1360993
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2075
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:19 pm

It's not unique and it's not unreasonable. The population density of the US is significantly less that the Europe or China. Foreign carriers would only be interested in flying trunk routes between major cities, not serving the population at large like the US3+WN do.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
FlyHappy
Topic Author
Posts: 1071
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:27 pm

anshabhi wrote:
there​ was a discussion on this recently...:
viewtopic.php?t=1360993


thank you for the reference, but I'm not sure this is exactly the same thing.

I am not raising the question of airline ownership rules (though I get that obviously allowing foreign ownership would automatically entitle domestic flying). Besides, I see that you brought up Vistara in India - isn't that Tata 51%, SIA 49% ? Doesn't really seem very different. Also, the reference to Switzerland, they operate within the EFTA framework right, so it isn't really like they are doing anything beyond just fully participating in the idea of "Europe as a single market" (also not significantly different from the US, as far as I can tell).
 
kalvado
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:42 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_ ... r#Cabotage
The unofficial eighth freedom is the right to carry passengers or cargo between two or more points in one foreign country and is also known as cabotage.[6]:31 It is extremely rare outside Europe.
 
SeaDoo
Posts: 285
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:58 pm

I would somewhat disagree with the higher fares. Recently fares are noticeably higher than they had been a few years ago. Around 1995 or 1996 I flew to MSY. That require a stop and the tickets were around $300. Earlier this year when I flew NK to MSY, it was around $124 one way. This was non-stop, but I had to fly NK. Recently I flew to IND. Almost as long as a flight to MSY. Adjusted for inflation, the tickets would work out to a little more than I paid to fly to MSY 20 years ago. Today I can fly there non-stop, but one may have to pay for checked luggage and you don't get a free meal. I could find examples where clearly things are cheaper than years ago, but it was easier to do that a few years ago.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3639
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:59 pm

I can't think of any large market outside of Europe that allows foreign carriers to have majority stake foreign ownership or foreign airlines in their domestic markets. Southeast Asia might be an example. Same with South America.

Canada, US, Mexico, etc don't allow foreign carriers to fly domestic service.

I think it would be terrible if aviation turned into the shipping industry where all the ships are registered in countries like Panama, Bahamas, Liberia, etc where they have the most favorable regulations. The FAA is a tough regulatory authority and an airline competing against US carriers without that regulatory burden would have a significant competitive advantage. Safety alone can be used by politicians to block it.
Last edited by Newbiepilot on Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Socrates17
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2003 3:47 am

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:03 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
It's not unique and it's not unreasonable. The population density of the US is significantly less that the Europe or China. Foreign carriers would only be interested in flying trunk routes between major cities, not serving the population at large like the US3+WN do.


The EU is certainly densely populated, but in China population is concentrated mostly along the coast. Cities in the interior and far west are much more spread out. There was recently a thread here about China Southern opening a hub in Ürümqi, which was seen by some as a radical move. (I thought it was a great idea.) Of course, the economy and competition are completely controlled. I'm actually surprised that the CAAC lets the Hainan Group do as well as it does. Flying domestically in China, I always found fares in business class (equivalent to intra-EU business class, but sometimes with slightly better seats) to be cheaper than on mainline EU airlines or the roughly equivalent "1st" with US airlines. Service was equivalent to the EU and slightly superior to the US.

The OP also asked about Russia. It's true that much of the population is in Moscow or St. Petersburg, but large population centers such as Volgograd & Yekaterinburg (let alone Irkutsk and Vladivostok) are more spread out than in the US. I'd assume that Russia doesn't allow foreign ownership given how picky they are about who even transits their airspace, so I'm wondering how fares and service are. I'm curious about domestic service from anyone who has actually experienced it. Given recent experiences on US metal I'm not prepared to assume Russia is any worse just because it's Russia. Airline ownership seems, from what I can tell, to be almost as concentrated as in the US.

As a US citizen, anything that gets more competition into the US market would be fine by me. I don't care if the airline is owned by Martians.
You Can't Take the Sky from Me
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14504
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:14 pm

This is a matter of protecting the 'turf' of USA based airline companies as well as the need to segregate for border control purposes. To allow a domestic flight within the USA on a foreign airline would mean a major potential security and customs hassle along with costs no airline and the TSA wouldn't want.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4114
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:17 pm

ltbewr wrote:
This is a matter of protecting the 'turf' of USA based airline companies as well as the need to segregate for border control purposes. To allow a domestic flight within the USA on a foreign airline would mean a major potential security and customs hassle along with costs no airline and the TSA wouldn't want.

It's not a security issue. It's just a protection of US industry. Qantas flies LAX JFK but they can't add anyone on in LAX that didn't come in from Australia on QANTAS
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1184
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:21 pm

It would be far better to open domestic airlines to greater foreign ownership than to allow cabotage. I don't think this industry should be subjected to the same labor arbitrage that the IT industry has experienced. I also think this would be hard to allow unless several countries enacted it at once. Additionally, I agree with the point above about foreign carriers wanting to focus on lucrative trunk routes. It's important to have a healthy domestic market that covers the broadest range of routes the market will bear.
 
BostonBeau
Posts: 546
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 11:55 pm

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:29 pm

Do most US airlines still belong to CRAF? I don't think the US government would want to have to contract with "foreign" airlines to carry US troops and equipment.
 
cschleic
Posts: 1747
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:47 pm

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:00 pm

32andBelow wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
This is a matter of protecting the 'turf' of USA based airline companies as well as the need to segregate for border control purposes. To allow a domestic flight within the USA on a foreign airline would mean a major potential security and customs hassle along with costs no airline and the TSA wouldn't want.

It's not a security issue. It's just a protection of US industry. Qantas flies LAX JFK but they can't add anyone on in LAX that didn't come in from Australia on QANTAS


EVA Air used to fly SEA to I believe JFK as well, with a combi so maybe mostly a freight issue. Plus, aren't those types of routes really continuations of the first leg so they're intended to be sold as a flight from the origin to final destination, not the city in the middle? It might become moot with more ULH planes available now.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2075
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:02 pm

BostonBeau wrote:
Do most US airlines still belong to CRAF? I don't think the US government would want to have to contract with "foreign" airlines to carry US troops and equipment.


Yes they are.

Let's just destroy a million careers in the name of cheap airfares while we're at it. This board sounds less insightful and more like flyertalk every day.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2252
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:35 pm

Ohhh nooo, not flyertalk. a.net must resist listing the elite rental car, hotel, airline, and childcare statuses of posters.
 
c933103
Posts: 3924
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:44 pm

Searched Japanese domestic flight with search engine results including transfer outside Japan(in some routes they are #1 search result), but both KE, TG, CI and EVA website's booking system said those tickets can't be booked with online booking system so not sure if that really work.
Searched JKT-DPS with results from airlines like MH and CZ but both of them said dial their booking center in order to make a booking.
Seached MAA-DEL with results from e.g. Gulf Air and Sri Lankan but situation same as above.
Seached TAO-PEK with results from KE but situation same as above.
Searched MEL-CNS with results from Air NZ but situation same as above.
Searched UUS-DME with results from Asiana and Etihad but Etihad website said there are difficulty in processing the transaction.
The message in signature have been removed according to demand.
 
lancelot07
Posts: 1084
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:22 pm

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:46 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
I can't think of any large market outside of Europe that allows foreign carriers to have majority stake foreign ownership or foreign airlines in their domestic markets. Southeast Asia might be an example. Same with South America.

Europe (i.e. the EU) does not allow that. "Foreign" in that case is "from outside the EU", with a few European exceptions.
 
c933103
Posts: 3924
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:51 pm

ltbewr wrote:
This is a matter of protecting the 'turf' of USA based airline companies as well as the need to segregate for border control purposes. To allow a domestic flight within the USA on a foreign airline would mean a major potential security and customs hassle along with costs no airline and the TSA wouldn't want.

Once upon a time certain airlines in Asia tried to sold tickets between GUM and points in the US, everything was fine until US authority stopped and fined them.
The message in signature have been removed according to demand.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14175
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:54 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
BostonBeau wrote:
Do most US airlines still belong to CRAF? I don't think the US government would want to have to contract with "foreign" airlines to carry US troops and equipment.


Yes they are.

Let's just destroy a million careers in the name of cheap airfares while we're at it. This board sounds less insightful and more like flyertalk every day.


I'm not sure that it cabotage would have as large an impact as people believe. Stuff like LAX-CHI/NYC is already super competitive, and the US is relatively isolated from most large potential pools of cheap pilots. I have an acquitance who lives in middle America and flies cargo for CX. It works for him, but it's a very different lifestyle than what most pilots, especially pilots with his seniority, have.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2583
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:13 pm

The short of the long is, that nobody allows 'foreign' airlines to operate domestic services in their country. For a lot of purposes, including commerce, the EU is considered a single, domestic, market. An analogy, albeit far from correct, would be the union of states making up the USA; an airline incorporated in Michigan is free to offer services within, to and from the state of Georgia - and vice versa.

The only reason the US market carries so much attention, is the sheer size of it. Well, some might add the service is also sub-par but, in reality, a domestic flight within the US is neither worse or better than a 'domestic' flight within the EU. In fact, if you pony you the cash it can be a whole lot better - flat seats on transcons does not exist in Europe. And before you kick off, I know it's 6 hours across the US and 'only' up to 5 across EU, but mainly between 2 and 3.

Lots of people make noise about how good it would be, if non-US airlines were given 8th freedom rights, envisioning sarong clad Singapore girls offering up champers and fish eggs up and down the Eastern corridor. Thing is, Singapore Airlines would - if able - at most offer seats on the JFK-LAX sector of a service terminating in SIN. But what you'd really get would be the AirAsia, Ryanair, Volotea and TIgerair's of the world offering up even crappier product, sh1ttier conditions for the employees and more frequent visits to Ch. 11 courts. Once the carnage would be over, homegrown US airlines would have consolidate even further, offering the same crappy product and the same sh1tty conditions but at vastly inflated prices.
Signature. You just read one.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3639
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:25 pm

c933103 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
This is a matter of protecting the 'turf' of USA based airline companies as well as the need to segregate for border control purposes. To allow a domestic flight within the USA on a foreign airline would mean a major potential security and customs hassle along with costs no airline and the TSA wouldn't want.

Once upon a time certain airlines in Asia tried to sold tickets between GUM and points in the US, everything was fine until US authority stopped and fined them.


Asiana put an advertisement in a Guam newspaper for flights to the US mainland with a short shopping layover in Seoul. They got caught for cabotage laws and got a 750k fine.

http://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News ... otage-laws



The DOT also said it is "not likely to pursue enforcement action except in straightforward cases."
Those "straightforward cases" could include:
• Continuous transportation, including short stopovers that are incidental to or otherwise do not break the continuity of the trip.
• Transportation conducted pursuant to a single ticket.
• A carrier or its agents knowingly selling two tickets covering cabotage service.
• A carrier or its agents promoting cabotage service via the Internet or other advertising.
• A carrier explicitly or tacitly accepting, benefiting from or participating in a "substantial arrangement" with a third party to conduct cabotage operations.
 
classicjets
Posts: 261
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:15 am

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:51 pm

Australia and New Zealand have an agreement allowing airlines of each country to operate domestic services in the other. For example, Jetstar operates domestic NZ services from its AKL base and Air New Zealand operates a service to BNE and SYD from Norfolk Island.
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 851
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Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:52 pm

B777LRF wrote:
The short of the long is, that nobody allows 'foreign' airlines to operate domestic services in their country. For a lot of purposes, including commerce, the EU is considered a single, domestic, market. An analogy, albeit far from correct, would be the union of states making up the USA; an airline incorporated in Michigan is free to offer services within, to and from the state of Georgia - and vice versa.

The only reason the US market carries so much attention, is the sheer size of it. Well, some might add the service is also sub-par but, in reality, a domestic flight within the US is neither worse or better than a 'domestic' flight within the EU. In fact, if you pony you the cash it can be a whole lot better - flat seats on transcons does not exist in Europe. And before you kick off, I know it's 6 hours across the US and 'only' up to 5 across EU, but mainly between 2 and 3.

Lots of people make noise about how good it would be, if non-US airlines were given 8th freedom rights, envisioning sarong clad Singapore girls offering up champers and fish eggs up and down the Eastern corridor. Thing is, Singapore Airlines would - if able - at most offer seats on the JFK-LAX sector of a service terminating in SIN. But what you'd really get would be the AirAsia, Ryanair, Volotea and TIgerair's of the world offering up even crappier product, sh1ttier conditions for the employees and more frequent visits to Ch. 11 courts. Once the carnage would be over, homegrown US airlines would have consolidate even further, offering the same crappy product and the same sh1tty conditions but at vastly inflated prices.


Great post! I was going to type up something very similar but you covered it well.

If you think Emirates is going to serve ORD-DSM you are dreaming big. And if they do serve it it won't be with 777-300s with first class suites. It's going to be with a fly Dubai 737 with the same or less service as United and American.
 
c933103
Posts: 3924
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:53 pm

B777LRF wrote:
The short of the long is, that nobody allows 'foreign' airlines to operate domestic services in their country. For a lot of purposes, including commerce, the EU is considered a single, domestic, market. An analogy, albeit far from correct, would be the union of states making up the USA; an airline incorporated in Michigan is free to offer services within, to and from the state of Georgia - and vice versa.

The only reason the US market carries so much attention, is the sheer size of it. Well, some might add the service is also sub-par but, in reality, a domestic flight within the US is neither worse or better than a 'domestic' flight within the EU. In fact, if you pony you the cash it can be a whole lot better - flat seats on transcons does not exist in Europe. And before you kick off, I know it's 6 hours across the US and 'only' up to 5 across EU, but mainly between 2 and 3.

Lots of people make noise about how good it would be, if non-US airlines were given 8th freedom rights, envisioning sarong clad Singapore girls offering up champers and fish eggs up and down the Eastern corridor. Thing is, Singapore Airlines would - if able - at most offer seats on the JFK-LAX sector of a service terminating in SIN. But what you'd really get would be the AirAsia, Ryanair, Volotea and TIgerair's of the world offering up even crappier product, sh1ttier conditions for the employees and more frequent visits to Ch. 11 courts. Once the carnage would be over, homegrown US airlines would have consolidate even further, offering the same crappy product and the same sh1tty conditions but at vastly inflated prices.

But is there many countries that forbid foreign carrier from handling passengers by arranging them to transfer at a hub outside a country? That seems to be more relevant in the US case, which would have allowed for example airlines in Caribbean or Canada to compete against hub in US mainland
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DfwAussie
Posts: 147
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:03 pm

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:54 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
This is a sincere inquiry, to which I seek out information and thoughtful opinions.
This is not about the domestically Oligopolistic US4, the reputation for poor service, or the state of US airports.

It is about barring of non-US carriers flying US domestic routes.

I consistently read, and am occasionally told, that all kinds of ills are attributed to the protected position US carriers enjoy in their domestic market. Everything from their hypocrisy on ME3 subsidies (real or not), to why customer service is poor, to why fares are high, etc, etc. I am not questioning these particular points, but the initial assumption that there is something odd about domestic protection.

What other countries have a large domestic aviation market, which is open to foreign carriers? When I think about comparable markets, I think:

Russia
China
India
Australia

stretching a bit further, I can add:

Brazil
Japan
Indonesia

Do any of these countries have legitimate competition in their markets from foreign carriers? (I really don't know, I want to understand better)

Finally, that leaves the EU.
Yes, I get both that the EU/EFTA has a highly competitive open market, with sensible regulation, which has spawned loads of good LCC choices and seemingly healthy operations. RyanAir, EasyJet, Norwegian, et al. But if the EU/EFTA is viewed as a single "domestic" market does it really have foreign competition? I can appreciate what the EU has done (aviation and otherwise), but still fail to see it as a differing from the US in this respect.

I believe there are all kinds of reasons to love, hate or be indifferent towards the US3, but why is a protected domestic US market one of them, and isn't it more or less similar in the rest of the world?

Thoughtful insights welcomed.


While a large nation is area, Australia has less that 25 million people. Aviation plays a big role given the lack of motorways, especially in the NT and WA. Still, it cannot be compared to the other nations listed.
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 851
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:57 pm

c933103 wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
The short of the long is, that nobody allows 'foreign' airlines to operate domestic services in their country. For a lot of purposes, including commerce, the EU is considered a single, domestic, market. An analogy, albeit far from correct, would be the union of states making up the USA; an airline incorporated in Michigan is free to offer services within, to and from the state of Georgia - and vice versa.

The only reason the US market carries so much attention, is the sheer size of it. Well, some might add the service is also sub-par but, in reality, a domestic flight within the US is neither worse or better than a 'domestic' flight within the EU. In fact, if you pony you the cash it can be a whole lot better - flat seats on transcons does not exist in Europe. And before you kick off, I know it's 6 hours across the US and 'only' up to 5 across EU, but mainly between 2 and 3.

Lots of people make noise about how good it would be, if non-US airlines were given 8th freedom rights, envisioning sarong clad Singapore girls offering up champers and fish eggs up and down the Eastern corridor. Thing is, Singapore Airlines would - if able - at most offer seats on the JFK-LAX sector of a service terminating in SIN. But what you'd really get would be the AirAsia, Ryanair, Volotea and TIgerair's of the world offering up even crappier product, sh1ttier conditions for the employees and more frequent visits to Ch. 11 courts. Once the carnage would be over, homegrown US airlines would have consolidate even further, offering the same crappy product and the same sh1tty conditions but at vastly inflated prices.

But is there many countries that forbid foreign carrier from handling passengers by arranging them to transfer at a hub outside a country? That seems to be more relevant in the US case, which would have allowed for example airlines in Caribbean or Canada to compete against hub in US mainland


There is nothing preventing Air Canada from scoping up traffic in the US and sending them through YYZ/YUL/YVR etc. Air Canada has a substantial US presence and pre clearance.
 
Sightseer
Posts: 972
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:04 am

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:10 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:

There is nothing preventing Air Canada from scoping up traffic in the US and sending them through YYZ/YUL/YVR etc.


As long as their ticketed destination is outside the US. You can't fly AC BOS-YYZ-SEA, for example, since that would be an eighth freedom ticket.
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 851
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:25 pm

Sightseer wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

There is nothing preventing Air Canada from scoping up traffic in the US and sending them through YYZ/YUL/YVR etc.


As long as their ticketed destination is outside the US. You can't fly AC BOS-YYZ-SEA, for example, since that would be an eighth freedom ticket.


That is true thanks for clarifying I wasn't thinking about that type of connection when I wrote my post.
Last edited by CriticalPoint on Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Sightseer
Posts: 972
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:04 am

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:31 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
Sightseer wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

There is nothing preventing Air Canada from scoping up traffic in the US and sending them through YYZ/YUL/YVR etc.


As long as their ticketed destination is outside the US. You can't fly AC BOS-YYZ-SEA, for example, since that would be an eighth freedom ticket.


That is true thanks for clarifying I wasn't think about that type of connection when I wrote my post.


No worries. I imagine that is also why the Japanese & Indonesian domestic city-pairs mentioned upthread didn't allow for foreign-carrier connections; those would also be eighth-freedom itineraries.
 
c933103
Posts: 3924
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:34 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
Sightseer wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

There is nothing preventing Air Canada from scoping up traffic in the US and sending them through YYZ/YUL/YVR etc.


As long as their ticketed destination is outside the US. You can't fly AC BOS-YYZ-SEA, for example, since that would be an eighth freedom ticket.


That is true thanks for clarifying I wasn't think about that type of connection when I wrote my post.

Which is what my original post was about. Sure, it is uncommon for airlines around the world to operate eighth freedom flight directly and governments around the world usually won't allow this, but how about with connection outside the countries? Is there any restricitions enforced by other countries about this, and if there are, how many countries are enforcing those restrictions?
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Sightseer
Posts: 972
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Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:52 pm

c933103 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Sightseer wrote:

As long as their ticketed destination is outside the US. You can't fly AC BOS-YYZ-SEA, for example, since that would be an eighth freedom ticket.


That is true thanks for clarifying I wasn't think about that type of connection when I wrote my post.

Which is what my original post was about. Sure, it is uncommon for airlines around the world to operate eighth freedom flight directly and governments around the world usually won't allow this, but how about with connection outside the countries? Is there any restricitions enforced by other countries about this, and if there are, how many countries are enforcing those restrictions?


I think most countries, if not all of them, take the same approach the US does.
 
Adipocere
Posts: 282
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:35 am

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:09 pm

In my opinion, it would be beneficial if policy would allow foreign crews to fly on US flights much like the cruise industry does.
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 851
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:11 pm

Adipocere wrote:
In my opinion, it would be beneficial if policy would allow foreign crews to fly on US flights much like the cruise industry does.


Would you really be willing to sacrifice the safety?
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14175
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:20 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
Adipocere wrote:
In my opinion, it would be beneficial if policy would allow foreign crews to fly on US flights much like the cruise industry does.


Would you really be willing to sacrifice the safety?


Why would it necessarily be a safety sacrifice? FAA could say that all domestic flights are subject to FAA rules and oversight regardless of operator.

The fact that the cruise industry is spineless on safety in no way suggests that that is the only way forward.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 851
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:28 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Adipocere wrote:
In my opinion, it would be beneficial if policy would allow foreign crews to fly on US flights much like the cruise industry does.


Would you really be willing to sacrifice the safety?


Why would it necessarily be a safety sacrifice? FAA could say that all domestic flights are subject to FAA rules and oversight regardless of operator.

The fact that the cruise industry is spineless on safety in no way suggests that that is the only way forward.


I assume the only reason anyone would want foreign crews is because they would be cheaper. There is only 3 ways to save money training, regulations and unions.

If you do not change the training and regulations of the United States then the only option is to union bust. If you bust the union you end up with an industry filled with minimum wage workers. Pay attracts talent......talent has a better safety rating.

The cheapest option is always the worst option. Just look how people blast the US airlines for being cheap. It's funny that you all want luxury service but you want your pilots to be from Congo and paid $2 an hour. It doesn't make sense.
 
c933103
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Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:37 pm

Sightseer wrote:
c933103 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

That is true thanks for clarifying I wasn't think about that type of connection when I wrote my post.

Which is what my original post was about. Sure, it is uncommon for airlines around the world to operate eighth freedom flight directly and governments around the world usually won't allow this, but how about with connection outside the countries? Is there any restricitions enforced by other countries about this, and if there are, how many countries are enforcing those restrictions?


I think most countries, if not all of them, take the same approach the US does.

It would be nice if your suspection can be confirmed by actual evidence as the search I performed as included in one of my earlier reply seems to suggest otherwise.

CriticalPoint wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

Would you really be willing to sacrifice the safety?


Why would it necessarily be a safety sacrifice? FAA could say that all domestic flights are subject to FAA rules and oversight regardless of operator.

The fact that the cruise industry is spineless on safety in no way suggests that that is the only way forward.


I assume the only reason anyone would want foreign crews is because they would be cheaper. There is only 3 ways to save money training, regulations and unions.

If you do not change the training and regulations of the United States then the only option is to union bust. If you bust the union you end up with an industry filled with minimum wage workers. Pay attracts talent......talent has a better safety rating.

The cheapest option is always the worst option. Just look how people blast the US airlines for being cheap. It's funny that you all want luxury service but you want your pilots to be from Congo and paid $2 an hour. It doesn't make sense.

The most major difference in crew wage is probably caused by variable cost of living in different part of the world.
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Adipocere
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Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:48 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
Adipocere wrote:
In my opinion, it would be beneficial if policy would allow foreign crews to fly on US flights much like the cruise industry does.


Would you really be willing to sacrifice the safety?


Why would it affect safety? As you said pay attracts talent, so pay just enough to attract the best of the best from low cost countries, and expect compliance to the same regulations from them.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:49 pm

Adipocere wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Adipocere wrote:
In my opinion, it would be beneficial if policy would allow foreign crews to fly on US flights much like the cruise industry does.


Would you really be willing to sacrifice the safety?


Why would it affect safety? As you said pay attracts talent, so pay just enough to attract the best of the best from low cost countries, and expect compliance to the same regulations from them.


the day you cut pay to "just enough" 60,000 pilots will walk out the door. You think that knowledge and safety is replaceable?
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:53 pm

c933103 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

Why would it necessarily be a safety sacrifice? FAA could say that all domestic flights are subject to FAA rules and oversight regardless of operator.

The fact that the cruise industry is spineless on safety in no way suggests that that is the only way forward.


I assume the only reason anyone would want foreign crews is because they would be cheaper. There is only 3 ways to save money training, regulations and unions.

If you do not change the training and regulations of the United States then the only option is to union bust. If you bust the union you end up with an industry filled with minimum wage workers. Pay attracts talent......talent has a better safety rating.

The cheapest option is always the worst option. Just look how people blast the US airlines for being cheap. It's funny that you all want luxury service but you want your pilots to be from Congo and paid $2 an hour. It doesn't make sense.

The most major difference in crew wage is probably caused by variable cost of living in different part of the world.


Yup. Would anyone argue with a straight face that LA and SA are less safe than LH or SQ just because they pay less?
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CriticalPoint
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Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:59 pm

Cubsrule wrote:

Yup. Would anyone argue with a straight face that LA and SA are less safe than LH or SQ just because they pay less?


Of course not, but it would be hard to argue that hiring LA and SA pilots in the USA would lower wages that much. Would it be enough to make it worth while?
 
Sightseer
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Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:08 pm

c933103 wrote:
I think most countries, if not all of them, take the same approach the US does.

It would be nice if your suspection can be confirmed by actual evidence as the search I performed as included in one of my earlier reply seems to suggest otherwise.


CX won't sell any domestic Chinese itineraries, and US carriers can't sell YYZ-YVR tickets. I think we're saying the same thing.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14175
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Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:10 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

Yup. Would anyone argue with a straight face that LA and SA are less safe than LH or SQ just because they pay less?


Of course not, but it would be hard to argue that hiring LA and SA pilots in the USA would lower wages that much. Would it be enough to make it worth while?


Consider the case of a hub in northern Mexico with eighth freedom rights. Perhaps pilots would not be imported.
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c933103
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Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:24 pm

Sightseer wrote:
c933103 wrote:
I think most countries, if not all of them, take the same approach the US does.

It would be nice if your suspection can be confirmed by actual evidence as the search I performed as included in one of my earlier reply seems to suggest otherwise.


CX won't sell any domestic Chinese itineraries, and US carriers can't sell YYZ-YVR tickets. I think we're saying the same thing.

If CX won't sell any domestic Chinese itineraries then I don't know why I can get this
Image
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DiamondFlyer
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Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:25 pm

Adipocere wrote:
In my opinion, it would be beneficial if policy would allow foreign crews to fly on US flights much like the cruise industry does.


Because, as everyone has pointed out, myself, and nearly every other ALPA member would walk off the job tomorrow. You want to see this country grind to a halt? Wait until every pilot walks away because of penny pinchers like yourself.
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superjeff
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Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:29 pm

c933103 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
This is a matter of protecting the 'turf' of USA based airline companies as well as the need to segregate for border control purposes. To allow a domestic flight within the USA on a foreign airline would mean a major potential security and customs hassle along with costs no airline and the TSA wouldn't want.

Once upon a time certain airlines in Asia tried to sold tickets between GUM and points in the US, everything was fine until US authority stopped and fined them.



1. When?
2. Which non U.S. airline?
 
c933103
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Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:35 pm

superjeff wrote:
c933103 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
This is a matter of protecting the 'turf' of USA based airline companies as well as the need to segregate for border control purposes. To allow a domestic flight within the USA on a foreign airline would mean a major potential security and customs hassle along with costs no airline and the TSA wouldn't want.

Once upon a time certain airlines in Asia tried to sold tickets between GUM and points in the US, everything was fine until US authority stopped and fined them.



1. When?
2. Which non U.S. airline?

You can read more about the incident from reply #21 of this thread which described the case in details.
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XRadar98
Posts: 57
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Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:42 pm

Adipocere wrote:
In my opinion, it would be beneficial if policy would allow foreign crews to fly on US flights much like the cruise industry does.

Listen to Liveatc.net, you will hear plenty of foreign accents on UA,DL,AA,WN and all of the other US airlines.
 
Tango-Bravo
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Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:28 pm

FlyHappy wrote:

...Do any of these countries have legitimate competition in their markets from foreign carriers? (I really don't know, I want to understand better)
.


To answer the question above which also answers the question raised by the topic's title, the answer is "none of the above" (7 nations listed in the original post) have domestic route competition from airlines based outside their borders. As best I can recall it has been several decades since cabotage rights have existed (if ever) within nations having reasonably well-established airlines.

In the distant past, there were a relative handful of countries that permitted cabotage on a limited basis until their own national airline(s) were "up to the task" of providing reliable, sustained domestic air service, or due to unique circumstances (think Intra-German services of PA, BA and AF prior to reunification). More recently and now virtually non-existent were flights listed in timetables with the notation "online international connecting (or stopover) traffic only" which meant an airline from country A could carry passengers between points within country B subject to the aforementioned self-explanatory restrictions, which is not in any way the same thing as cabotage (ie airline from country A carrying pax whose trip is entirely between two points within country B).
 
Sightseer
Posts: 972
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Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:28 am

c933103 wrote:
Sightseer wrote:
c933103 wrote:
I think most countries, if not all of them, take the same approach the US does.

It would be nice if your suspection can be confirmed by actual evidence as the search I performed as included in one of my earlier reply seems to suggest otherwise.


CX won't sell any domestic Chinese itineraries, and US carriers can't sell YYZ-YVR tickets. I think we're saying the same thing.

If CX won't sell any domestic Chinese itineraries then I don't know why I can get this
Image


Beats me. CAN-WUH-CAN is literally the only itinerary I've found (of the dozens that I've tried) that CX's website will look up. WUH-CAN-WUH, for instance, is not permitted. Regardless, I still think we're making the same point; that flying between two airports in one country by connecting in another country is generally not allowed. Your various Asian lookups lead to that conclusion, as does the situation in the US and Canada.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Is protected US domestic market really unique?

Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:09 am

I completely understand protection for US carriers and why we can't have airlines like Norwegian, Emirates, Lufthansa etc flying JFK-LAX, BOS-MCO, DFW-ORD etc, but for the life of me I can't understand why we can't book eighth freedom flights. If I want to fly LGA to YYZ to SEA on Air Canada/one ticket, I should be able to.
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