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finnishway
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Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:50 am

Now that A321neo and B737MAX are being delivered to customers they open new route possibilities just like B787 has done.

I am interested in that kind of routes that could be profitable with narrowbody aircraft and B787 would be too large for them at least on daily basis.

Routes are also interesting, but I am more interested in which cities can benefit from this. We can take worldwide view, but personally I am most interested about cities in Europe and US.

So basically what are those cities that could one day in the near future see TATL flights or more TATL flights with narrowbody aircraft?

So please don't answer "that city already has TATL flights". I am interested in what NEW opportunities NARROWbody aircraft opens for these cities.

In Europe I think possible cities for new services are Birmingham, Liverpool, Cardiff, Hamburg, Berlin, Düsseldorf, Eindhoven/Lelystad (lack of slots & space at AMS), Lyon.

In US possible candidates could be Buffalo, Islip (Long Island), Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Portland (Maine), Cleveland, Cincinnati.
 
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PlaneCookies
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:19 am

Eastern/Central European capitals should be good candidates, Warsaw, Sofia, Prague, Belgrade, Budapest. As well as secondary northern European cities, Bergen, Stavanger, Gothenburg, to name a few.
 
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chrisnh
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:51 am

MHT (Manchester,NH) if the imbeciles running the place could realize that this new breed of airliners in upon us and that having a Customs/Immigration infrastructure is a necessary prerequisite to any service possibilities. But instead, this great airport 50 miles from Boston is ignored in favor of PWM, PVD, PSM, etc. That's fully on management at MHT, who are pulling in big paychecks while watching service (and revenue) levels plummet.
 
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:23 am

PlaneCookies wrote:
Eastern/Central European capitals should be good candidates, Warsaw, Sofia, Prague, Belgrade, Budapest. As well as secondary northern European cities, Bergen, Stavanger, Gothenburg, to name a few.

Op said not to include cities with TATL
services.Warsaw,Budapest,Prague and Bergen,Belgrade all have them or is getting them but they can get them in future well some could.
 
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klm617
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:05 am

I think YQG is a great candidate to get a flight to London in the summer months.
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Polot
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:21 am

PlaneCookies wrote:
Eastern/Central European capitals should be good candidates, Warsaw, Sofia, Prague, Belgrade, Budapest. As well as secondary northern European cities, Bergen, Stavanger, Gothenburg, to name a few.

TATL from most of those Eastern/Central European capitals just isn't possible with the Neo/Max. They need more range than what any Max and A321LR provide.
 
ZWTwinOtter
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:46 am

What about PWM-LGW. PWM-DEN NE Boston catchment area, its own large flow in summer and Autumn. Seasonal only
 
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:59 am

More BDL flights I'm pretty sure.
 
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:13 pm

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flyjoe
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:14 pm

ABE is a perfect candidate for TATL service to Western European destinations. It has such a large population base within an hour or drive to pull from the PHL suburbs and western and central NJ. They would have to solve for a permanent customs solution other than the pop up support for one off flights in the past. I've been away from ABE for a while, so maybe that's in a planning stage.

MDT could work to a lesser extent, but with BWI already known for being a lower fare alternative for the D.C. area, it becomes less likely.
 
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QuawerAir
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:18 pm

Helsinki is quite potential. Norwegian has around 40 destinations from HEL. A321neo and B737 MAX could reach cities in Northern India, Central Asia and Western Far East. Also Northeastern US, Eastern Canada and Northern Africa is reachable. A321neoLR could reach US cities such as New York, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia and Washington D.C. In Asia, A321neoLR could reach the whole Middle East, China, whole India, whole South Korea and Northern Japan (Sapporo).
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SCQ83
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:20 pm

- Bilbao
- Alicante or Valencia
- Palma de Mallorca
- Ibiza
- Málaga (already has DL to JFK)
- Las Palmas or Tenerife
- Porto (already has flights to the US and Canada)

I think all those markets could sustain new or additional service to New York and Boston and/or South Florida (in some cases like IBZ or PMI, on a seasonal basis).
 
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par13del
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:21 pm

Polot wrote:
TATL from most of those Eastern/Central European capitals just isn't possible with the Neo/Max. They need more range than what any Max and A321LR provide.

Other than the A321-NEO/LR, is TATL possible with the A320-NEO or any version of the MAX, and I am talking about normal operations not blocking off a number of seats and limiting payload.
 
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QuawerAir
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:24 pm

QuawerAir wrote:
Helsinki is quite potential. Norwegian has around 40 destinations from HEL. A321neo and B737 MAX could reach cities in Northern India, Central Asia and Western Far East. Also Northeastern US, Eastern Canada and Northern Africa is reachable. A321neoLR could reach US cities such as New York, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia and Washington D.C. In Asia, A321neoLR could reach the whole Middle East, China, whole India, whole South Korea and Northern Japan (Sapporo).

I have to add that Helsinki and Finland is quite small market and thus seat capacity of these narrowbodies (around 180 to 220 seats) is quite appropriate.
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DLHAM
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:43 pm

HAM to the US and Canada. (ORD/DTW, IAD, BOS, YYZ, Destinations like these).
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Natflyer
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:47 pm

QuawerAir wrote:
Helsinki is quite potential. Norwegian has around 40 destinations from HEL. A321neo and B737 MAX could reach cities in Northern India, Central Asia and Western Far East. Also Northeastern US, Eastern Canada and Northern Africa is reachable. A321neoLR could reach US cities such as New York, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia and Washington D.C. In Asia, A321neoLR could reach the whole Middle East, China, whole India, whole South Korea and Northern Japan (Sapporo).


You are exaggerating the range of the A321neoLR quite a bit... The best combination for the LR is 2 ACT's and about 185 seats. That's gives a real world range of about 3100nm + reserves.
 
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:48 pm

finnishway wrote:
So please don't answer "that city already has TATL flights". I am interested in what NEW opportunities NARROWbody aircraft opens for these cities.

In Europe I think possible cities for new services are Birmingham, Liverpool, Cardiff, Hamburg, Berlin, Düsseldorf, Eindhoven/Lelystad (lack of slots & space at AMS), Lyon.

In US possible candidates could be Buffalo, Islip (Long Island), Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Portland (Maine), Cleveland, Cincinnati.


You might constrain the problem two ways.

First, what city pairs are within the practical, reliable range given likely seating configs of operators, typical winds, and specific airport constraints (runway length.elevation, and seasonal temps)? Delta cites 4,705 sm miles as the range for a 75S config but hasn't (IIRC) operated it farther than JFK-PSA, 4,131sm. UA gave up on TXL-EWR with a 757; that was 3,980sm. Real range on a MAX might limit potential MKE services to DUB; LGW/LHR may be too far.

Second, what city pairs have adequate demand on either end -- that don't already face lots of competition from nearby airports? (Sorry MHT and PWM fans, but BOS is too close, with too many cities served by too many carriers. We have yet to see if PVD services can thrive outside of the unique Azores exception.)

Then you might think about what frequency and duration are enough to be meaningful. Is LGW-CVG once a week for the eight peak weeks of summer really worthy of claiming victory?

Boeing called it right with regards to route fragmentation: new routes on smaller, range-capable planes (787 successes) vs. big planes between mega-hubs (the A380 mission). However, I don't see NEO/MAX as TATL game-changers the way 767 ETOPS was. We've had a close analogue in TATL service for ~two decades - the 757. Subtract some CASM and subtract some range.
 
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:07 pm

Oporto to EWR seems to me the most logical. At least during summer tourist season. I'd hazard a guess that Goteberg to NYC might have possibilities, other than that can't think of anything that wasn't served or hasn't been served in the past.
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QuawerAir
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:14 pm

Natflyer wrote:
QuawerAir wrote:
Helsinki is quite potential. Norwegian has around 40 destinations from HEL. A321neo and B737 MAX could reach cities in Northern India, Central Asia and Western Far East. Also Northeastern US, Eastern Canada and Northern Africa is reachable. A321neoLR could reach US cities such as New York, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia and Washington D.C. In Asia, A321neoLR could reach the whole Middle East, China, whole India, whole South Korea and Northern Japan (Sapporo).


You are exaggerating the range of the A321neoLR quite a bit... The best combination for the LR is 2 ACT's and about 185 seats. That's gives a real world range of about 3100nm + reserves.

So only Northwestern India (Ahmedabad, New Delhi), the Middle East, Pakistan, Central Asia, Northwestern China, Mongolia, North Africa and maybe Ethiopia are reachable...
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ltbewr
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:17 pm

I see the A320NEO and B737MAX as eventual replacement on long-thin TATL routes that the 757 covers now where the 757 may be too large or as they age out. They could allow for in particular good yielding business travelers more non-stop services to/from mid-market European and eastern North American cities or secondary airports in major markets or to avoid overburdened hubs on both sides of the Atlantic. It also works where pax could be closer to their homes/destinations on both sides of the pond.
 
Jerry123
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:52 pm

Would love to see a MAX service from New York to Cardiff even if it was seasonal. I'm biased but I think an airline like Norwegian could possibly make it work and attract a lot of American tourists.
My personal preference though would be Delta to JFK but I just don't see them doing anymore UK regional airports.
With their new MAX aircraft i do hope Monarch looks at TATL again.
 
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:53 pm

Norwegian has expressed interest in SBN with the A321LR now that the airport has a Customs facility and will have FIS shortly (the delays were due to USDA incineration rules). SBN-DUB has been mentioned, and given on-airport train access to Chicago via the South Shore Line, I could see Norwegian pulling an SWF by linking tertiary UK cities to SBN. And not long after the A321LR is ready, South Shore Dual Track will cut the travel time to get from SBN to downtown Chicago from 2.5 to 1.5 hours.

I could also see Norwegian trying FWA, but not until there's an FIS here. We already have CBP for bizjets and cargo, but the facility isn't big enough for a large narrowbody. It's being relocated soon, though, and hopefully to a facility where FIS can easily be added.
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:25 pm

PlaneCookies wrote:
Eastern/Central European capitals should be good candidates, Warsaw, Sofia, Prague, Belgrade, Budapest. As well as secondary northern European cities, Bergen, Stavanger, Gothenburg, to name a few.


Eastern Europe is far out of range for the MAX or NEO, that just can't be done.

Billund is an airport that comes to my mind. It's the second-largest airport in Denmark and has quite a catchment area, yet there are no flights to anywhere in America from Billund. Copenhagen is the only airport in Denmark with flights to the USA.

Same is true for Göteborg as the second-largest airport in Sweden. Sweden is a much larger country than Denmark, but still Stockholm is the only airport in Sweden with TATL flights. Sure Göteborg could handle some, maybe even wide-body.

Another airport that comes to my mind is Knock, Ireland. Looking at Ireland Dublin already has plenty of TATL flights as well as Shannon and Cork is getting some with Norwegian too. But I think there's hardly any airport in Ireland that has a better geographical position than Knock. It's more western than Dublin and more northern than Shannon and therefor the closest to America.
 
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:46 pm

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Markie73
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:47 pm

How about EMA or LTN?, neither has TATL flights and bearing in mind that Ryanair has a strong presence at both airports and is getting the 737MAX and with LTN being U2's back yard and also getting the 321neo, it kind of makes me wonder which one of these two will be the first to join the party across the pond?.
 
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:22 pm

I think we'll see some more obscure South Pacific destinations get flights to LAX.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:25 pm

Sorry for disappointing you but I think you're all going way over the top. At best, the A321LR has a range comparable to the 757, which I will assume as 3460nm in real life conditions (UA's EWR-TXL route). So USA to anywhere east of a line connecting morroco with the baltic sea is out of the question. Sorry Poland. From DTW, you're looking at Portugal and the british isles as potential destinations. From HEL, the northern half of India, the middle east and central china are reachable. They are not tiny dreamliners.

Next, consider the demand. With all due respect to EMA, but I'm afraid an airport serving mere 4.5 mio passengers a year will struggle to even fill a weekly A321LR to New York. Unless the place has very special conditions - like Iceland - airports with less than ca. 10-15 mio PAX annually will simply not be feasible. Especially if a well connected hub is available nearby.

For illustration, consider this map with the mentioned 3460nm range circles around select airports worldwide.

Image
 
33lspotter
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:28 pm

chrisnh wrote:
MHT (Manchester,NH) if the imbeciles running the place could realize that this new breed of airliners in upon us and that having a Customs/Immigration infrastructure is a necessary prerequisite to any service possibilities. But instead, this great airport 50 miles from Boston is ignored in favor of PWM, PVD, PSM, etc. That's fully on management at MHT, who are pulling in big paychecks while watching service (and revenue) levels plummet.


You make a good point, particularly about the fact that there are narrow body aircraft that are capable of TATL service. I saw in a Portland Press Herald article the folks at PWM remarking that these new types of aircraft could open the door for TATL service out of PWM. Whether or not the airport is able to land such service remains to be seen, but at least the PWM airport management team is thinking about it.
 
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:37 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Billund is an airport that comes to my mind. It's the second-largest airport in Denmark and has quite a catchment area, yet there are no flights to anywhere in America from Billund. Copenhagen is the only airport in Denmark with flights to the USA.

Same is true for Göteborg as the second-largest airport in Sweden. Sweden is a much larger country than Denmark, but still Stockholm is the only airport in Sweden with TATL flights. Sure Göteborg could handle some, maybe even wide-body.

The US end is a problem for places like BLL and GOT. BOS and the traditional NYC airports are at best congested and at worst slot controlled, and I do not know that secondary-secondary (BLL-PVD or GOT-SWF) would work. If UA or DL orders a bunch of NEO/MAX and EWR or JFK magically gets another runway, maybe that changes, but that does not seem terribly likely.
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:44 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Next, consider the demand. With all due respect to EMA, but I'm afraid an airport serving mere 4.5 mio passengers a year will struggle to even fill a weekly A321LR to New York. Unless the place has very special conditions - like Iceland - airports with less than ca. 10-15 mio PAX annually will simply not be feasible. Especially if a well connected hub is available nearby.


But you forget that these well connected hubs are often more expensive than the smaller alternative airports nearby, plus it's far easier to obtain slots at smaller airports than it is at big ones. Specially for LCCs, who don't want to spend too much money and effort on slots, these alternative airports are very attractive. East Midlands is such an airport, making an excellent alternative for both Birmingham and Manchester.

Will they struggle to fill an A321 to New York? That totally depends on the fare. Sure, with the same fare people will prefer Birmingham or Manchester. But most likely the fare from East Midlands will be lower and that will attract passengers. Sure if they make it cheap enough they don't have any trouble filling it.
 
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Natflyer wrote:
QuawerAir wrote:
Helsinki is quite potential. Norwegian has around 40 destinations from HEL. A321neo and B737 MAX could reach cities in Northern India, Central Asia and Western Far East. Also Northeastern US, Eastern Canada and Northern Africa is reachable. A321neoLR could reach US cities such as New York, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia and Washington D.C. In Asia, A321neoLR could reach the whole Middle East, China, whole India, whole South Korea and Northern Japan (Sapporo).


You are exaggerating the range of the A321neoLR quite a bit... The best combination for the LR is 2 ACT's and about 185 seats. That's gives a real world range of about 3100nm + reserves.


Don't see the sense in that. That's the best combination for the standard A321NEO if it's looking for range.
The whole point of the extra 3.5t MTOW of the LR is to be able to accept 3 x ACT's (25.5 tonnes fuel) and still lift a 20t payload.
That should be equivalent to a late model 757-200

mxaxai wrote:
At best, the A321LR has a range comparable to the 757, which I will assume as 3460nm in real life conditions (UA's EWR-TXL route).


This sounds pretty representative - comparable to a 752 9in terms of range/payload). So 3 500Nm tops real life sounds realistic.

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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:06 pm

What is the realistic TATL range for B737MAX8?
 
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:34 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
- Porto (already has flights to the US and Canada)

csavel wrote:
Oporto to EWR seems to me the most logical. At least during summer tourist season.


OPO already has year-round flights to GIG, GRU and EWR (all 2x week by TP), YYZ (S4 and TS, 1x week each), and YUL (TS, 2x week).
I think that the arrival of the A321LR to TP in 2019 might see the increase of their frequencies to EWR (possibly going daily?), and a potential start of BOS and/or YYZ.
 
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:38 pm

finnishway wrote:
What is the realistic TATL range for B737MAX8?

About 2700nm after you account for the jetstream at its worst(this is assumes airlines that do not tolerate fuel diversions).
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:13 pm

TYO/SEL-ANC possible?
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YIMBY
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:46 pm

QuawerAir wrote:
QuawerAir wrote:
Helsinki is quite potential. Norwegian has around 40 destinations from HEL. A321neo and B737 MAX could reach cities in Northern India, Central Asia and Western Far East. Also Northeastern US, Eastern Canada and Northern Africa is reachable. A321neoLR could reach US cities such as New York, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia and Washington D.C. In Asia, A321neoLR could reach the whole Middle East, China, whole India, whole South Korea and Northern Japan (Sapporo).

I have to add that Helsinki and Finland is quite small market and thus seat capacity of these narrowbodies (around 180 to 220 seats) is quite appropriate.


Helsinki may be the last major city within Nordic countries to see 321LR long haul, at least TATL. All other Nordic capitals and secondary cities (Gothenburg, Billund, Bergen) are more suitable for that. I think that another step in range is required to make 321LR fly TATL from Helsinki except sporadically.

Finland as itself is too small a market to sustain any long-haul flight, but they rely on connecting traffic, for which a smaller widebody will suit better, though a 321LR or 320NEO might serve as route opener or experimental testbed for inland China, North India etc.

Scandinavia is more oriented in O&D for which 321LR suits well, given also the sorter distance to America. In some other thread I suggested that SAS would simplify their fleet to Airbus narrowbodies and use appropriately configured (business heavy) 321LR for most long-haul flights and just add frequency and destinations.
 
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QuawerAir
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:30 pm

YIMBY wrote:
QuawerAir wrote:
QuawerAir wrote:
Helsinki is quite potential. Norwegian has around 40 destinations from HEL. A321neo and B737 MAX could reach cities in Northern India, Central Asia and Western Far East. Also Northeastern US, Eastern Canada and Northern Africa is reachable. A321neoLR could reach US cities such as New York, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia and Washington D.C. In Asia, A321neoLR could reach the whole Middle East, China, whole India, whole South Korea and Northern Japan (Sapporo).

I have to add that Helsinki and Finland is quite small market and thus seat capacity of these narrowbodies (around 180 to 220 seats) is quite appropriate.


Helsinki may be the last major city within Nordic countries to see 321LR long haul, at least TATL. All other Nordic capitals and secondary cities (Gothenburg, Billund, Bergen) are more suitable for that. I think that another step in range is required to make 321LR fly TATL from Helsinki except sporadically.

Finland as itself is too small a market to sustain any long-haul flight, but they rely on connecting traffic, for which a smaller widebody will suit better, though a 321LR or 320NEO might serve as route opener or experimental testbed for inland China, North India etc.

Scandinavia is more oriented in O&D for which 321LR suits well, given also the sorter distance to America. In some other thread I suggested that SAS would simplify their fleet to Airbus narrowbodies and use appropriately configured (business heavy) 321LR for most long-haul flights and just add frequency and destinations.

I would say that if HEL didn't rely on connecting traffic, Helsinki would have scheduled services to New York and maybe Bangkok as well as charters to Phuket and Krabi (as we have today). HEL would also see services from Emirates and/or Qatar Airways due to lack of direct routes to Asia (Qatar Airways' DOH-HEL route has seen great demand). Services to Japan and China with few weekly frequencies would also be possible as there is little O/D traffic.

I can't understand why OSL has several long haul routes but HEL would not have any. Norway has around the same population as Finland.
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:28 pm

c933103 wrote:
TYO/SEL-ANC possible?

At 3000 and 3300 nm, respectively, this would seem to be possible. ANA has some A321 on order, so why not? Although the scarcity of slots especially at TYO could pose a problem. Would there be a market? Anchorage itself is not that large but it certainly is a gateway to and from Alaska, including its oil and tourism industry.
 
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bdlflyer
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:28 pm

If I am not mistaken, back in November of 2015, the new owners of TAP Portugal, a consortium headed by Mr. David Neeleman, announced the intention of starting a direct route between Lisbon and BDL in the future using the A321neo.
Bradley International Airport (BDL) | Gateway to New England | ❤️ Love The Journey | New England's second largest airport
 
finnishway
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:17 am

kelvin933 wrote:
finnishway wrote:
What is the realistic TATL range for B737MAX8?

About 2700nm after you account for the jetstream at its worst(this is assumes airlines that do not tolerate fuel diversions).


How did you come up with that range?

Boeing says on its website that B737MAX8 has a range of 3,515 nm with 162 two-class passengers and 82,2000-kg (181,200-lb) MTOW.

So you have 800 nm less than Boeing says it can do.
 
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LFLL
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:42 am

Lyon for sure is a good candidate
LFLL
 
finnishway
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:24 am

IND wants London service.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2017/06/26/indianapolis-airport-eyeing-london-expands-incentives-international-flights/427731001/

I have no doubts of that region getting London service, but there are a lot of competing cities like Cleveland, Cincinnati, Columbus and Pittsburgh.
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:19 pm

finnishway wrote:
IND wants London service.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2017/06/26/indianapolis-airport-eyeing-london-expands-incentives-international-flights/427731001/

I have no doubts of that region getting London service, but there are a lot of competing cities like Cleveland, Cincinnati, Columbus and Pittsburgh.


Indy actually sounds like a great place for Norwegian and a 1 to 2x weekly seasonal service if the 321lr can do it. It is also in the wheelhouse of a proposed MOM.
 
flyfresno
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:36 pm

Not sure if you all consider them to be "long haul", but SLC/DEN/AUS and other Midwest cities to HNL/KOA.
 
Sooner787
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:21 pm

flyfresno wrote:
Not sure if you all consider them to be "long haul", but SLC/DEN/AUS and other Midwest cities to HNL/KOA.


Could WN run KDAL- HNL nonstop flights with their new MAX-8's ?

Right now, AA has a momopoly on nonstop service out of DFW
 
UWPAviation
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:48 pm

I would LOVE for MKE to get a longhaul flight. I was hoping for Norwegian but obviously not with them going to ORD. Maybe an airline like WOW would be interested in MKE. I know right now they are doing a seasonal thing out of ORD, but once the new international terminal is built at MKE I think an airline like WOW would be perfect here.

MDW would also be very cool to see a longhaul flight at. Since the MAX and NEO are pretty much as big as you can get out of MDW it would be interesting for WOW to even Ryan air (I know it would never happen) to fly out of MDW and keep the low-cost vibe going out of MDW.

But MKE first since it's my home ;)
 
UWPAviation
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:51 pm

WaywardMemphian wrote:
finnishway wrote:
IND wants London service.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2017/06/26/indianapolis-airport-eyeing-london-expands-incentives-international-flights/427731001/

I have no doubts of that region getting London service, but there are a lot of competing cities like Cleveland, Cincinnati, Columbus and Pittsburgh.


Indy actually sounds like a great place for Norwegian and a 1 to 2x weekly seasonal service if the 321lr can do it. It is also in the wheelhouse of a proposed MOM.


MKE would be a great place for a low cost Europe flight. You get the large draw from Chicago as well as rest of WI. Plus the new international terminal going up at MKE, I think it would be a no brainier for a low cost airline. You get a shiny new terminal and still the Chicago draw without the ORD fees
 
2fly2furious
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:59 pm

WaywardMemphian wrote:
finnishway wrote:
IND wants London service.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2017/06/26/indianapolis-airport-eyeing-london-expands-incentives-international-flights/427731001/

I have no doubts of that region getting London service, but there are a lot of competing cities like Cleveland, Cincinnati, Columbus and Pittsburgh.


Indy actually sounds like a great place for Norwegian and a 1 to 2x weekly seasonal service if the 321lr can do it. It is also in the wheelhouse of a proposed MOM.


LGW - IND is 3490nm (6463 km) so it's probably right at the edge of what is possible with the a321lr. Do you think it can go that far against the jet stream? That would be an 8+ hour flight going west!
 
parapente
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:01 pm

Airbus say that the A321NEO LR can do a 757 but burn up to 30% less fuel.Perhaps that number changes everything?

Is it suddenly profitable to fly from a series of secondary airports between Europe and the USA?Is that why Boeing are being told by airlines that they don't want it bigger than 250 pax? What they (say they) want is the same (-30% sfc) but with an extra 1knm - so more city pairs can be reached (profitably)?
If so flying between these 2 continents would become unrecognisable from what we understand today.
 
finnishway
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Re: Cities that could see narrowbody longhaul flights with A321neo/B737MAX

Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:36 am

finnishway wrote:
kelvin933 wrote:
finnishway wrote:
What is the realistic TATL range for B737MAX8?

About 2700nm after you account for the jetstream at its worst(this is assumes airlines that do not tolerate fuel diversions).


How did you come up with that range?

Boeing says on its website that B737MAX8 has a range of 3,515 nm with 162 two-class passengers and 82,2000-kg (181,200-lb) MTOW.

So you have 800 nm less than Boeing says it can do.


Norwegian will operate Bergen - Newburgh and that is about 3000 nm.

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