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drdisque
Posts: 1418
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:57 am

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:01 pm

whatusaid wrote:
Modesto has service? To where?


Sorry, I had Modesto confused with Merced in my mind.
 
mtnwest1979
Posts: 2211
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:23 am

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:12 pm

Plus so many of the cities that no longer have service were served with the 18 or so pax Metros, BE1900, BE99, EMB, DHT and so on. There was a time when flying these was economical enough to actually make a small profit. But then rules changed, passengers snubbed them, and also roads/speed limits improved made it a lot harder for them to make anything.
I certainly don't think any pax would tolerate a multi-stop flight that made some operations do ok. I doubt anyone would do Grand Island-North Platte-Denver anymore just to have to connect at DEN.
I think rationalized usage has come as well. There is no reason Stockton AND Modesto should have service, especially the type back in the day when Pacific Express did a LAX-MOD-SCK-LAX route. Why spend double for landing fees, staff, equip, etc?
I do miss days of multi indy commtuers all doing the same thing- just getting by lol. I am really impressed Riverton ,WY has TWO carriers serve it- Great Lakes (?) and Denver Air Connection. I am assuming ZK isn't crapping up the market there too.
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2159
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Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:52 pm

DesertAir wrote:
The current state of mega carriers cannot respond to the smaller/underserved markets that is the point of the discussion. We need a new airline service model for these markets.


Maybe come full circle and back to local service carriers such as North Central, Allegheny, Mohawk, Southern etc.
 
jplatts
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Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:30 am

kbmiflyer wrote:
CanesFan wrote:
Unserved: ...,FTW, ...


Does FTW have the same Wright Amendment restrictions as DAL? If someone wanted to, could they serve FTW? Allegiant comes to mind as an airline that could start FTW someday.


The Wright Amendment did not prohibit commercial air service out of DFW-area airports other than Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport or Dallas Love Field, but did restrict nonstop service from Dallas Love Field to Texas, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Louisiana (plus Kansas, Mississippi, and Alabama through the Shelby Amendment and Missouri through an amendment made on November 30, 2005).

The provision of the 5-party agreement between the City of Dallas, the City of Fort Worth, American Airlines, Southwest Airlines, and the DFW International Airport Board that restricted commercial air service in the DFW area to DFW Airport and Dallas Love Field had expired on October 13, 2014, the day that the Wright Amendment was repealed. In addition, the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 does not prohibit commercial air service out of DFW-area airports other than Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport or Dallas Love Field.
 
330west
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Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:10 am

New Bedford, MA. At one time it had service to Laguardia, I assume with Northeast and/or Delta but now just Cape Air to Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket. It's 40 minutes from PVD and just over an hour from Boston by car so probably not on anyone's radar but I've always thought a connection to Newark or Philadelphia would be bankable.
Always fly first class, otherwise your heirs will.
 
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klm617
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Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:20 am

JBo wrote:
drdisque wrote:
MCD? Seriously? A 3000 ft runway, virtually no permanent population, and one hotel?


There are actually several hotels and resorts on Mackinac Island; The Grand Hotel is just the most well-known.

That said, Mackinac Island is within such close proximity to PLN and CIU that commercial service beyond an air taxi to St. Ignace really isn't necessary.



There was a time when in the summer there was hourly service to PLN and a couple of flights a day to TVC. But I think some high end operator could make this route work in the summer.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
cheapgreek
Posts: 566
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Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:31 am

Hanscom Field BED did have limited air service some years ago. With a 7000 foot runway, it could be a satellite airport for the Boston area. Logan is a hassle.
 
KentB27
Posts: 476
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:20 pm

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:48 am

zrs70 wrote:
Does Topeka have any air service these days?
Santa Fe?


UA used to have service to O'Hare from Topeka but honestly Topeka is still in the catchment area of MCI. MHK is also about an hour away and ICT is less than two hours away. I think most people just ended up driving to MCI or ICT because they have much more options.
 
hz747300
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Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:19 am

KSAD = Safford Regional Airport had service from Frontier in the 1950s but none since. It has a population of almost 8000 people, and a metro area, including Fort Thomas, Pima, Thatcher, and Solomonville, of at least 15-16k people; yet no air service. Who are the revenue department wizards that thought this was a great idea? It's at least 150 minutes to either Sky Harbor in PHX or TUS, and maybe 180 minutes to ELP.

Unbelievable.
Keep on truckin'...
 
TigerFlyer
Posts: 239
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:51 pm

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:02 pm

There's really too much service to communities that can't sustain it. The essential air service program (EAS) was supposed to be a temporary measure to transition into the deregulated era. Taxpayers pay hundreds of millions a year to fly small planes empty into cities like Hagerstown MD (70 miles from Washington Dulles) and Lancaster PA ( a short drive to BWI or PHL). If there's a viable market, it is being served.
 
masseybrown
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Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:30 pm

Mansfield, OH, used to have service (Lake Central and later Allegheny) and has a population that could support a couple of fifty-seater flights to a hub. However it's within an hour's drive of both CLE and CMH.
 
glfblz59
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:47 am

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:54 pm


Well, near ORD & MKE, RFD(Rockford)is an untapped gem. Should have at least 4x a week for Allegiant, and, maybe a few weekly flights for Spirit?
Back in the day, a wonderful restaurant in the terminal. Very good food we would drive to on a Sunday afternoon, and eat "good",
and watch a few planes in/out.
When I was a Passenger Service Co-ord., for AA, we had to land a 727-200 there, do to bad WX at ORD. Had to bus the psgrs back to ORD bcuz
they couldn't take off with psgrs & bags/freight. So, the psgrs got a ride and the bags "flew" back to ORD. OMG, those were the days.
 
KCaviator
Posts: 261
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:00 pm

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:01 am

klm617 wrote:
MCD and PTK in Michigan


I could see MCD served on a seasonal basis with a Caravan or something similar. Direct flights to/from the Chicago and Detroit areas.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6414
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Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:07 am

KCaviator wrote:
klm617 wrote:
MCD and PTK in Michigan


I could see MCD served on a seasonal basis with a Caravan or something similar. Direct flights to/from the Chicago and Detroit areas.


As I said in a different reply, according to Wiki, MCD does have service. Is that not correct?
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:11 am

cheapgreek wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
CXA330300 wrote:
Essentially unserved - HVN has three flights a day to PHL. I could see that expanding. 600,000 in the New Haven area.


You could say HVN is underserved, but they're not unserved, plus BDL is only about an hour away, which is shorter than the distance from one end of a major metro area to an airport in many instances.

TOL you could say also fits the underserved, but not unserved category.

As for unserved - Gary, Indiana!


On July 19th, the federal court trial will render a verdict in the New Haven's law suit against the state which opposes the expanding of its 5600 foot runway. Some years ago, New Haven was listed as the most underserved city in the country. NW tried twice to start service to DTW but the weight restrictions would have been too great, same for AA wanting to use the ERJ-145 to ORD. SW also surveyed the airport with the same ending. The city should win the case as the state's opposition violates federal interstate commerce laws. BDL is almost in Massachusetts, and at times traffic in Hartford is bumper to bumper. HVN has its own market to draw from which is quite large, over the years two nearby commercial airports have lost airline service, GON and BDR.
Several airlines are waiting for HVN to expand its runway to start service, one being Allegiant. The Dash-8 fleet is winding down very fast at Piedmont and without the runway extension, airline service service will end at New Haven.


I hope the lawsuit will favor New Haven/Tweed. However from what I am hearing (and this might be just rumors at this point) Once the Piedmont Dash 8's are retired PHL service will still be served by PSA CRJ-200's.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2931
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Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:59 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
cheapgreek wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:

You could say HVN is underserved, but they're not unserved, plus BDL is only about an hour away, which is shorter than the distance from one end of a major metro area to an airport in many instances.

TOL you could say also fits the underserved, but not unserved category.

As for unserved - Gary, Indiana!


On July 19th, the federal court trial will render a verdict in the New Haven's law suit against the state which opposes the expanding of its 5600 foot runway. Some years ago, New Haven was listed as the most underserved city in the country. NW tried twice to start service to DTW but the weight restrictions would have been too great, same for AA wanting to use the ERJ-145 to ORD. SW also surveyed the airport with the same ending. The city should win the case as the state's opposition violates federal interstate commerce laws. BDL is almost in Massachusetts, and at times traffic in Hartford is bumper to bumper. HVN has its own market to draw from which is quite large, over the years two nearby commercial airports have lost airline service, GON and BDR.
Several airlines are waiting for HVN to expand its runway to start service, one being Allegiant. The Dash-8 fleet is winding down very fast at Piedmont and without the runway extension, airline service service will end at New Haven.


I hope the lawsuit will favor New Haven/Tweed. However from what I am hearing (and this might be just rumors at this point) Once the Piedmont Dash 8's are retired PHL service will still be served by PSA CRJ-200's.


I'd imagine as long as AA's HVN services are pulling in high yields/margins in a monopoly environment, they'd want to stay.
 
SCHATC422
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2014 2:09 pm

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:08 pm

I'll add ILG as unserved. Too bad DOV can't build a terminal and allow flights there, otherwise I'd say DOV. But as far as DE is concerned, ILG for sure.
 
DariusBieber
Posts: 217
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Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:27 pm

Del Rio, TX comes to mind. It's a three hour drive to the nearest commercial service at SAT. It used to be served by the EMB-120s from IAH, which was a perfect plane for that route. With many airliners and aircraft manufacturers shying away from making smaller regional jets, places like DRT might not see commercial service again.
Aerospace Engineering student
 
globalcabotage
Posts: 534
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:42 pm

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:04 am

May not be unserved, but we know DTW is the most underserved airport in the world! When DTW-PHK or DTW-MLE is served hourly on a 380, than DTW will be real.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:37 am

The LCC market to ski resorts is underserved. EGE has alot of o&d and high fares for a very short amount of time for example. I think the biggest roadblocks have been plane types, not the seasonality part though the demand is huge in winter. The legacies don't add more seats because they make so much per seat, the demand is there. EGE, ASE, HDN, JAC the legacies have the perfect balance of high fares and number of seats to maximize revenue to a T but demand is super high at and they are underserved at peak times of winter.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:25 am

cheapgreek wrote:
Hanscom Field BED did have limited air service some years ago. With a 7000 foot runway, it could be a satellite airport for the Boston area. Logan is a hassle.


I believe this is where the original Shuttle America got started, isn't it? Obviously they did well enough to get noticed, though I don't know what the airport situation is there.

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
The LCC market to ski resorts is underserved. EGE has alot of o&d and high fares for a very short amount of time for example. I think the biggest roadblocks have been plane types, not the seasonality part though the demand is huge in winter. The legacies don't add more seats because they make so much per seat, the demand is there. EGE, ASE, HDN, JAC the legacies have the perfect balance of high fares and number of seats to maximize revenue to a T but demand is super high at and they are underserved at peak times of winter.


I do have to wonder what the room availability would be for LCC-style passengers. If G4 (for example) flew into one of these places, are there value-oriented places for their passengers to stay?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
HVNandrew
Posts: 558
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Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:09 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
cheapgreek wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:

You could say HVN is underserved, but they're not unserved, plus BDL is only about an hour away, which is shorter than the distance from one end of a major metro area to an airport in many instances.

TOL you could say also fits the underserved, but not unserved category.

As for unserved - Gary, Indiana!


On July 19th, the federal court trial will render a verdict in the New Haven's law suit against the state which opposes the expanding of its 5600 foot runway. Some years ago, New Haven was listed as the most underserved city in the country. NW tried twice to start service to DTW but the weight restrictions would have been too great, same for AA wanting to use the ERJ-145 to ORD. SW also surveyed the airport with the same ending. The city should win the case as the state's opposition violates federal interstate commerce laws. BDL is almost in Massachusetts, and at times traffic in Hartford is bumper to bumper. HVN has its own market to draw from which is quite large, over the years two nearby commercial airports have lost airline service, GON and BDR.
Several airlines are waiting for HVN to expand its runway to start service, one being Allegiant. The Dash-8 fleet is winding down very fast at Piedmont and without the runway extension, airline service service will end at New Haven.


I hope the lawsuit will favor New Haven/Tweed. However from what I am hearing (and this might be just rumors at this point) Once the Piedmont Dash 8's are retired PHL service will still be served by PSA CRJ-200's.

It has been reported quite a bit in the local media that once the Dash 8s are retired AA would have no other planes that COULD serve HVN, so service would end. But I don't really understand that...DL flew CRJs from HVN-CVG for a couple years. I'm guessing they might have taken weight restrictions, but a CRJ to PHL would also carry less fuel.
 
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Super80Fan
Posts: 1622
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Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:12 pm

HVNandrew wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
cheapgreek wrote:

On July 19th, the federal court trial will render a verdict in the New Haven's law suit against the state which opposes the expanding of its 5600 foot runway. Some years ago, New Haven was listed as the most underserved city in the country. NW tried twice to start service to DTW but the weight restrictions would have been too great, same for AA wanting to use the ERJ-145 to ORD. SW also surveyed the airport with the same ending. The city should win the case as the state's opposition violates federal interstate commerce laws. BDL is almost in Massachusetts, and at times traffic in Hartford is bumper to bumper. HVN has its own market to draw from which is quite large, over the years two nearby commercial airports have lost airline service, GON and BDR.
Several airlines are waiting for HVN to expand its runway to start service, one being Allegiant. The Dash-8 fleet is winding down very fast at Piedmont and without the runway extension, airline service service will end at New Haven.


I hope the lawsuit will favor New Haven/Tweed. However from what I am hearing (and this might be just rumors at this point) Once the Piedmont Dash 8's are retired PHL service will still be served by PSA CRJ-200's.

It has been reported quite a bit in the local media that once the Dash 8s are retired AA would have no other planes that COULD serve HVN, so service would end. But I don't really understand that...DL flew CRJs from HVN-CVG for a couple years. I'm guessing they might have taken weight restrictions, but a CRJ to PHL would also carry less fuel.


Yeah I was wondering that myself seeing how RJ's and even older 737's operated into/out of HVN in the past, but apparently the CRJ-200's need less runway than the E145's. Will be interesting to see if it does indeed go back to RJ's or if AA discontinues service until if/when the runway gets extended.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
polywad6963
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 1:50 am

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:25 pm

I dont believe Sheboygan, WI has air service, and MKE is an hr away, and ORD is 2+hr away.
 
nadavatar64
Posts: 270
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Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:38 pm

DTW to everywhere.
 
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jnev3289
Posts: 636
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Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:02 pm

Loving the DTW jokes.

On topic: Manassas, VA airport is 30 mi. from DC and has a 6,200 ft rwy
 
drdisque
Posts: 1418
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:57 am

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:42 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
KCaviator wrote:
klm617 wrote:
MCD and PTK in Michigan


I could see MCD served on a seasonal basis with a Caravan or something similar. Direct flights to/from the Chicago and Detroit areas.


As I said in a different reply, according to Wiki, MCD does have service. Is that not correct?


MCD does not have real scheduled air service. The service listed on Wiki is essentially air taxi.
 
cheapgreek
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:57 pm

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:06 pm

HVNandrew wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
cheapgreek wrote:

On July 19th, the federal court trial will render a verdict in the New Haven's law suit against the state which opposes the expanding of its 5600 foot runway. Some years ago, New Haven was listed as the most underserved city in the country. NW tried twice to start service to DTW but the weight restrictions would have been too great, same for AA wanting to use the ERJ-145 to ORD. SW also surveyed the airport with the same ending. The city should win the case as the state's opposition violates federal interstate commerce laws. BDL is almost in Massachusetts, and at times traffic in Hartford is bumper to bumper. HVN has its own market to draw from which is quite large, over the years two nearby commercial airports have lost airline service, GON and BDR.
Several airlines are waiting for HVN to expand its runway to start service, one being Allegiant. The Dash-8 fleet is winding down very fast at Piedmont and without the runway extension, airline service service will end at New Haven.


I hope the lawsuit will favor New Haven/Tweed. However from what I am hearing (and this might be just rumors at this point) Once the Piedmont Dash 8's are retired PHL service will still be served by PSA CRJ-200's.

It has been reported quite a bit in the local media that once the Dash 8s are retired AA would have no other planes that COULD serve HVN, so service would end. But I don't really understand that...DL flew CRJs from HVN-CVG for a couple years. I'm guessing they might have taken weight restrictions, but a CRJ to PHL would also carry less fuel.


The ERJ-145's operating out of ROA to both PHL and LGA only list 40 seats, that's quite a weight restriction, 20% and ROA has two runways, 6800 feet and 5810 feet. While the CRJ-200 is better off short runways, depending on the temperature,wind speed, direction and wet or dry runways, even PHL would probably take a hit on the number of seats. Also AA is going to be losing 65 CRJ-200's when Air Wisconsin becomes a United express carrier in 2018. The 19th of July can't come fast enough for me, for decades HVN has been hamstrung by local opposition and has lost out on many airlines starting new service such as Southwest and Northwest and American back in the late 90's and early 2000's. I hope to see AA add service to CLT as the first new service to augment PHL.
 
CanesFan
Posts: 161
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:49 pm

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:55 pm

cheapgreek wrote:
HVNandrew wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:

I hope the lawsuit will favor New Haven/Tweed. However from what I am hearing (and this might be just rumors at this point) Once the Piedmont Dash 8's are retired PHL service will still be served by PSA CRJ-200's.

It has been reported quite a bit in the local media that once the Dash 8s are retired AA would have no other planes that COULD serve HVN, so service would end. But I don't really understand that...DL flew CRJs from HVN-CVG for a couple years. I'm guessing they might have taken weight restrictions, but a CRJ to PHL would also carry less fuel.


The ERJ-145's operating out of ROA to both PHL and LGA only list 40 seats, that's quite a weight restriction, 20% and ROA has two runways, 6800 feet and 5810 feet. While the CRJ-200 is better off short runways, depending on the temperature,wind speed, direction and wet or dry runways, even PHL would probably take a hit on the number of seats. Also AA is going to be losing 65 CRJ-200's when Air Wisconsin becomes a United express carrier in 2018. The 19th of July can't come fast enough for me, for decades HVN has been hamstrung by local opposition and has lost out on many airlines starting new service such as Southwest and Northwest and American back in the late 90's and early 2000's. I hope to see AA add service to CLT as the first new service to augment PHL.


The biggest reason for the weight restrictions in ROA is due to the terrain surrounding the airport.
 
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knope2001
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Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:21 pm

polywad6963 wrote:
I dont believe Sheboygan, WI has air service, and MKE is an hr away, and ORD is 2+hr away.


Not since American Central flew EMB to Chicago in 1982/1983, and that struggled because MKE is just too close and easy to get to.

It's kind of a curious thread title..."Unserved markets in the US" kind of implies undeserved markets that could plausibly support service today and many responses have gone that direction. But a more literal take could include airports which at one time supported scheduled service but currently do not. I worked on compiling a list of airports in the lower 48 with scheduled air service since 1960 which no longer have it and I came up with over 400 airports. Just for Wisconsin...

AHH Amery
ASX Ashland
AUW Wausau (Downtown)
CLI Clintonville
FLD Fond du Lac
HYR Hayward
ISW Wisconsin Rapids
JVL Janesville/Beloit
MDZ Medford
MFI Marshfield
MTW Manitowoc
OSH Oshkosh
PDC Prairie du Chien
RNH New Richmond
RPD Rice Lake
STE Stevens Point
SUE Sturgeon Bay
SUW Superior
UES Waukesha
??? Lake Geneva -- not sure of the code at the airport where it operated

Few if any of these would support scheduled service these days even under ideal conditions because travel has changed so much. Faster roads and higher speed limits have made travel to big airports with far, far better service much easier than decades ago. And good old intertia is the enemy here as well. To use the example this post is replying to, people are so used to driving to Milwaukee for good fares and dozens of nonstop destinations that even frequent, relatively cheap RJ flights to Chicago from a place like Sheboygan would have a hard time breaking people’s current habit of driving to MKE. Witness the failure of St Cloud-Chicago and Topeka-Chicago in breaking people’s habit of driving to MSP and MCI.
 
Yflyer
Posts: 1737
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:05 am

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:55 pm

knope2001 wrote:
Faster roads and higher speed limits have made travel to big airports with far, far better service much easier than decades ago.


At least according to Wikipedia, when SMF first opened in 1967 it had a flight to Marysville, which nowadays is maybe a one hour drive straight up Highway 99. But like you say I imagine the roads probably weren't as good back then. Today that flight would make no sense at all; it would be crazy to show up at the airport 1.5-2 hours early to catch a flight somewhere you could drive to in an hour.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:10 pm

globalcabotage wrote:
May not be unserved, but we know DTW is the most underserved airport in the world! When DTW-PHK or DTW-MLE is served hourly on a 380, than DTW will be real.
Your comments are getting way out of hand...
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
cheapgreek
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Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:20 pm

CanesFan wrote:
cheapgreek wrote:
HVNandrew wrote:
It has been reported quite a bit in the local media that once the Dash 8s are retired AA would have no other planes that COULD serve HVN, so service would end. But I don't really understand that...DL flew CRJs from HVN-CVG for a couple years. I'm guessing they might have taken weight restrictions, but a CRJ to PHL would also carry less fuel.


The ERJ-145's operating out of ROA to both PHL and LGA only list 40 seats, that's quite a weight restriction, 20% and ROA has two runways, 6800 feet and 5810 feet. While the CRJ-200 is better off short runways, depending on the temperature,wind speed, direction and wet or dry runways, even PHL would probably take a hit on the number of seats. Also AA is going to be losing 65 CRJ-200's when Air Wisconsin becomes a United express carrier in 2018. The 19th of July can't come fast enough for me, for decades HVN has been hamstrung by local opposition and has lost out on many airlines starting new service such as Southwest and Northwest and American back in the late 90's and early 2000's. I hope to see AA add service to CLT as the first new service to augment PHL.


The biggest reason for the weight restrictions in ROA is due to the terrain surrounding the airport.


When the CRJ-200's were used on the routes, no weight restrictions. Piedmont's plans to use the ERJ-15's from SBY and its 6400 foot runway to PHL and CLT, it was reported that another 600 feet would have to be added for service to PHL and CLT. PHL is 107 miles away and CLT is 370 miles away.

http://salisburyindependent.net/wicomic ... jet-fleet/
http://www.delmarvanow.com/story/news/l ... /97689498/

Plain and simple the ERJ-145 is a runway hog. The worst preforming RJ.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:24 pm

flymco753 wrote:
globalcabotage wrote:
May not be unserved, but we know DTW is the most underserved airport in the world! When DTW-PHK or DTW-MLE is served hourly on a 380, than DTW will be real.
Your comments are getting way out of hand...


I think he's poking fun at another annoying A.net poster who derails every thread with his bizarre (and incorrect) drama about how DL is going to gut DTW as an international gateway.
 
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N776AU
Posts: 1015
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:18 am

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:25 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
brianK73 wrote:
State of Delaware comes to mind.


PHL, with 30 million passengers a year and ~500 scheduled flights a day, is within an hour's drive for a majority of DE's population.

And BWI for the other half to boot.
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CanesFan
Posts: 161
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:49 pm

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:52 pm

cheapgreek wrote:
CanesFan wrote:
cheapgreek wrote:

The ERJ-145's operating out of ROA to both PHL and LGA only list 40 seats, that's quite a weight restriction, 20% and ROA has two runways, 6800 feet and 5810 feet. While the CRJ-200 is better off short runways, depending on the temperature,wind speed, direction and wet or dry runways, even PHL would probably take a hit on the number of seats. Also AA is going to be losing 65 CRJ-200's when Air Wisconsin becomes a United express carrier in 2018. The 19th of July can't come fast enough for me, for decades HVN has been hamstrung by local opposition and has lost out on many airlines starting new service such as Southwest and Northwest and American back in the late 90's and early 2000's. I hope to see AA add service to CLT as the first new service to augment PHL.


The biggest reason for the weight restrictions in ROA is due to the terrain surrounding the airport.


When the CRJ-200's were used on the routes, no weight restrictions. Piedmont's plans to use the ERJ-15's from SBY and its 6400 foot runway to PHL and CLT, it was reported that another 600 feet would have to be added for service to PHL and CLT. PHL is 107 miles away and CLT is 370 miles away.

http://salisburyindependent.net/wicomic ... jet-fleet/
http://www.delmarvanow.com/story/news/l ... /97689498/

Plain and simple the ERJ-145 is a runway hog. The worst preforming RJ.


Interesting. I used to fly the 145 all of the time from Kalamazoo to O'hare and very rarely had a weight restriction (the max takeoff weight was almost always the max landing weight + enroute burn.) Kalamazoo's runway is 6500 ft and the distance from AZO to ORD is 123 miles as the crow flies. The runway length at SBY shouldn't affect the ability to serve PHL.
 
Northwest1988
Topic Author
Posts: 383
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:10 pm

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:04 pm

What about Burlington, Iowa? BRL had service on Braniff a long time ago. Currently it is served by Air Choice One with service to ORD and STL using Cessna 208s. I understand they run a pretty good operation... Would think American Eagle or United Express could run a twice daily ORD flight! It has two runways that are plenty long enough!
 
HVNandrew
Posts: 558
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:05 am

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:15 pm

cheapgreek wrote:
HVNandrew wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:

I hope the lawsuit will favor New Haven/Tweed. However from what I am hearing (and this might be just rumors at this point) Once the Piedmont Dash 8's are retired PHL service will still be served by PSA CRJ-200's.

It has been reported quite a bit in the local media that once the Dash 8s are retired AA would have no other planes that COULD serve HVN, so service would end. But I don't really understand that...DL flew CRJs from HVN-CVG for a couple years. I'm guessing they might have taken weight restrictions, but a CRJ to PHL would also carry less fuel.


The ERJ-145's operating out of ROA to both PHL and LGA only list 40 seats, that's quite a weight restriction, 20% and ROA has two runways, 6800 feet and 5810 feet. While the CRJ-200 is better off short runways, depending on the temperature,wind speed, direction and wet or dry runways, even PHL would probably take a hit on the number of seats. Also AA is going to be losing 65 CRJ-200's when Air Wisconsin becomes a United express carrier in 2018. The 19th of July can't come fast enough for me, for decades HVN has been hamstrung by local opposition and has lost out on many airlines starting new service such as Southwest and Northwest and American back in the late 90's and early 2000's. I hope to see AA add service to CLT as the first new service to augment PHL.

HVN could serve certain markets with the right runway and facility upgrades (DCA, CLT, ATL, ORD, maybe even some Florida), but I really don't see how it could ever fit into the WN business model, either now or in the 90s...

BDR was in the same boat back in the late 90s, with apparently strong local demand but too short a runway. After 10+ years without commercial service they finally demolished the old passenger terminal. I doubt they will ever see commercial service again.
 
User avatar
flymco753
Posts: 3507
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:41 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
globalcabotage wrote:
May not be unserved, but we know DTW is the most underserved airport in the world! When DTW-PHK or DTW-MLE is served hourly on a 380, than DTW will be real.
Your comments are getting way out of hand...


I think he's poking fun at another annoying A.net poster who derails every thread with his bizarre (and incorrect) drama about how DL is going to gut DTW as an international gateway.
It's not only this post but about 3 others in the last 24 hours.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
cheapgreek
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:57 pm

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:48 pm

HVNandrew wrote:
cheapgreek wrote:
HVNandrew wrote:
It has been reported quite a bit in the local media that once the Dash 8s are retired AA would have no other planes that COULD serve HVN, so service would end. But I don't really understand that...DL flew CRJs from HVN-CVG for a couple years. I'm guessing they might have taken weight restrictions, but a CRJ to PHL would also carry less fuel.


The ERJ-145's operating out of ROA to both PHL and LGA only list 40 seats, that's quite a weight restriction, 20% and ROA has two runways, 6800 feet and 5810 feet. While the CRJ-200 is better off short runways, depending on the temperature,wind speed, direction and wet or dry runways, even PHL would probably take a hit on the number of seats. Also AA is going to be losing 65 CRJ-200's when Air Wisconsin becomes a United express carrier in 2018. The 19th of July can't come fast enough for me, for decades HVN has been hamstrung by local opposition and has lost out on many airlines starting new service such as Southwest and Northwest and American back in the late 90's and early 2000's. I hope to see AA add service to CLT as the first new service to augment PHL.

HVN could serve certain markets with the right runway and facility upgrades (DCA, CLT, ATL, ORD, maybe even some Florida), but I really don't see how it could ever fit into the WN business model, either now or in the 90s...

BDR was in the same boat back in the late 90s, with apparently strong local demand but too short a runway. After 10+ years without commercial service they finally demolished the old passenger terminal. I doubt they will ever see commercial service again.


Back in the 90's Southwest came to survey HVN, when they asked if the airport could handle 300K yearly, the mayor froze like a deer in the headlights. Years back, SW would have at least 10 daily flights at a new station, since then they have airports with less than 10 daily flights. If the runway back then was long enough, I could see SW starting with 4 flights to BWI. Draw a circle from HVN 10 miles out and do the same for BDL and see the huge local catchment area that exists for HVN. With I-95 and I-91 being minutes away, I too see flights to CLT,ORD,ATL and DTW along with several weekly flights to Florida on either Allegiant or Frontier. Six more days till the federal court trial.
 
HVNandrew
Posts: 558
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:05 am

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:24 pm

cheapgreek wrote:
HVNandrew wrote:
cheapgreek wrote:

The ERJ-145's operating out of ROA to both PHL and LGA only list 40 seats, that's quite a weight restriction, 20% and ROA has two runways, 6800 feet and 5810 feet. While the CRJ-200 is better off short runways, depending on the temperature,wind speed, direction and wet or dry runways, even PHL would probably take a hit on the number of seats. Also AA is going to be losing 65 CRJ-200's when Air Wisconsin becomes a United express carrier in 2018. The 19th of July can't come fast enough for me, for decades HVN has been hamstrung by local opposition and has lost out on many airlines starting new service such as Southwest and Northwest and American back in the late 90's and early 2000's. I hope to see AA add service to CLT as the first new service to augment PHL.

HVN could serve certain markets with the right runway and facility upgrades (DCA, CLT, ATL, ORD, maybe even some Florida), but I really don't see how it could ever fit into the WN business model, either now or in the 90s...

BDR was in the same boat back in the late 90s, with apparently strong local demand but too short a runway. After 10+ years without commercial service they finally demolished the old passenger terminal. I doubt they will ever see commercial service again.


Back in the 90's Southwest came to survey HVN, when they asked if the airport could handle 300K yearly, the mayor froze like a deer in the headlights. Years back, SW would have at least 10 daily flights at a new station, since then they have airports with less than 10 daily flights. If the runway back then was long enough, I could see SW starting with 4 flights to BWI. Draw a circle from HVN 10 miles out and do the same for BDL and see the huge local catchment area that exists for HVN. With I-95 and I-91 being minutes away, I too see flights to CLT,ORD,ATL and DTW along with several weekly flights to Florida on either Allegiant or Frontier. Six more days till the federal court trial.

Interesting. But to your point, given the WN strategy in the 90s, I don't know how that would have worked even with a longer runway...that facility couldn't handle 10 flights per day. I haven't flown out of there in a few of years, but I doubt much has changed. That terminal is *tiny* - I only recall one security lane, and I think there's only room for one more (to go to the unused upper gates). The baggage claim is basically a garage door. That's a fine facility for three Dash 8 flights a day, but if the runway is extended and they want to attract service beyond a couple CRJs flights, that facility is going to need a major overhaul.

HVN might have a large potential catchment area, but the way it is distributed makes HVN less critical. The densest population lies to the west going down the coast. For them, the regional airport market can be served by HPN, which has really expanded traffic-wise over the last decade. And then a little bit further down are the NYC airports, from which you can basically go anywhere. The larger population centers to the north are not that far from BDL. It's the people to the east for whom HVN is the far more convenient option and who don't have any really viable, nearby alternative (BDL could be for some, but for others PVD comes into the picture). But population density falls off a cliff east of New Haven. Or at least it's not what you're seeing to the west and into Fairfield County.

Obviously I'd like for HVN to succeed. It was my hometown airport of sorts and it would be a very convenient option for me when I visit my family, but I recognize it has some inherent challenges beyond just the runway length.
 
2175301
Posts: 1989
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:18 pm

freakyrat wrote:
DesertAir wrote:
The current state of mega carriers cannot respond to the smaller/underserved markets that is the point of the discussion. We need a new airline service model for these markets.


Maybe come full circle and back to local service carriers such as North Central, Allegheny, Mohawk, Southern etc.


I doubt that... and in fact I'd actually say that their is an adequate model to support the smaller markets. It's called profitability. Show me a route where someone can likely make an actual profit serving,,, and I'll show you a served market. Show me a market that requires substantial government (rest of us) subsidies for the benefit of only a few with no general public benefit - and it should not exist within the USA per my understanding of what government is supposed to actually be doing.

People generally can chose where to live. Many people chose to live places without good air service for very good reasons for themselves. It's part of the trade-off. On the other hand... I met and talked to a person who lives less than 1 block from a "Blue Line" Train stop in the Minneapolis area because the fly so much. I believe they told me it's typically less than 20 minutes from the door of their condo to airport check-in, with no traffic or parking hassles (and just a few minutes outside in the weather). While I have been stable in the same location now for 17 years; I've personally moved about 20 times in my life to be near my new job or other opportunity; and would move again it it would noticeably benefit my life.

Where a person chooses to live... and how close to "handy" air travel is an individual choice. There is no requirement - anywhere - that the rest of us have to provide air travel (or even good roads) to people who chose to live away from those things.

Have a great day,
 
cheapgreek
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:57 pm

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:48 pm

HVNandrew wrote:
cheapgreek wrote:
HVNandrew wrote:
HVN could serve certain markets with the right runway and facility upgrades (DCA, CLT, ATL, ORD, maybe even some Florida), but I really don't see how it could ever fit into the WN business model, either now or in the 90s...

BDR was in the same boat back in the late 90s, with apparently strong local demand but too short a runway. After 10+ years without commercial service they finally demolished the old passenger terminal. I doubt they will ever see commercial service again.


Back in the 90's Southwest came to survey HVN, when they asked if the airport could handle 300K yearly, the mayor froze like a deer in the headlights. Years back, SW would have at least 10 daily flights at a new station, since then they have airports with less than 10 daily flights. If the runway back then was long enough, I could see SW starting with 4 flights to BWI. Draw a circle from HVN 10 miles out and do the same for BDL and see the huge local catchment area that exists for HVN. With I-95 and I-91 being minutes away, I too see flights to CLT,ORD,ATL and DTW along with several weekly flights to Florida on either Allegiant or Frontier. Six more days till the federal court trial.

Interesting. But to your point, given the WN strategy in the 90s, I don't know how that would have worked even with a longer runway...that facility couldn't handle 10 flights per day. I haven't flown out of there in a few of years, but I doubt much has changed. That terminal is *tiny* - I only recall one security lane, and I think there's only room for one more (to go to the unused upper gates). The baggage claim is basically a garage door. That's a fine facility for three Dash 8 flights a day, but if the runway is extended and they want to attract service beyond a couple CRJs flights, that facility is going to need a major overhaul.


HVN might have a large potential catchment area, but the way it is distributed makes HVN less critical. The densest population lies to the west going down the coast. For them, the regional airport market can be served by HPN, which has really expanded traffic-wise over the last decade. And then a little bit further down are the NYC airports, from which you can basically go anywhere. The larger population centers to the north are not that far from BDL. It's the people to the east for whom HVN is the far more convenient option and who don't have any really viable, nearby alternative (BDL could be for some, but for others PVD comes into the picture). But population density falls off a cliff east of New Haven. Or at least it's not what you're seeing to the west and into Fairfield County.

Obviously I'd like for HVN to succeed. It was my hometown airport of sorts and it would be a very convenient option for me when I visit my family, but I recognize it has some inherent challenges beyond just the runway length.




Granted the terminal is small but the former terminal was even smaller and it handled 4 737's daily and a mixture of turbo props. Several years had boarding totals of over 100K. The runway is the only impediment to increased service, There is land that could be used for a new terminal, but in the meantime the present terminal can handle far more than 3 Dash-8 flights. From Stratford to Old Saybrook on I-95, HVN is the nearest airport and from the Valley area Derby, Seymour, etc and up to Middletown, HVN is the most convenient airport.
Even for those towns where the distance is a toss up. the ease of using Tweed outweighs the hassles of BDL. I have used both and HVN is much more user friendly. HVN can support more service, not in the likes of BDL or HPN, but enough to meet the needs of most area travelers. For international flights, nothing beats JFK. Just the sheer numbers of flights, airlines and destinations offer the best value.
 
catiii
Posts: 3768
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:02 pm

CXA330300 wrote:
Essentially unserved - HVN has three flights a day to PHL. I could see that expanding. 600,000 in the New Haven area.


Problem with HVN is its proximity to BDL, HPN, NYC, and PVD. More choice and better fares has always been an issue stunting growth.
 
cheapgreek
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:57 pm

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:53 pm

catiii wrote:
CXA330300 wrote:
Essentially unserved - HVN has three flights a day to PHL. I could see that expanding. 600,000 in the New Haven area.


Problem with HVN is its proximity to BDL, HPN, NYC, and PVD. More choice and better fares has always been an issue stunting growth.


The bigger problem has been the lack on airlines and options in hub airports apart from PHL. Traffic to BDL and especially NYC airports can be very heavy at times on the parking lot known as I-95. It took me three hours to get to EWR due to traffic on I-95 and the Merritt parkway.and BDL is almost in Massachusetts. For many travelers the time to reach these other airports can be one or more hours and if someone is being dropped off or picked up, that can work out to a lot of road time. Allegiant has shown interest in HVN which could spur more flights and airlines. No one expects HVN to be another BDL or HPN, but with several more airlines and flights to 3-4 hub airports, it could be the answer for many travelers looking to avoid long ground travel time and using an airport in the local area. When one looks back on the history of HVN, the runway has been the single biggest issue that has stunted growth, the market is there, many area corporations would use a home town airport along with leisure travelers.
Five more days till the judge offers his verdict.
 
Guess
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:54 pm

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:47 pm

[quote="Northwest1988"]Hello all,

What are some of the unserved markets in the US, particularly in the lower 48 that have no commercial airline service? They may have been served in the past but airlines may have terminated the destination. With the ULCC airlines swooping in to cities like Punta Gorda, Florida for example, what else is left?

For example Anderson Regional Airport in South Carolina was once served by multiple small airlines. It's a significantly sized city that is still a decent drive away to ATL or CLT. GSP serves the upstate of South Carolina but there are many people that wish service would return to KAND.

What other cities are like this in the US? Is there anything left to tap or is everything that can have service, does? Thanks![/quote]

Houma/Thibodaux has a metro of around a quarter million people without any scheduled service. It's only about an hour drive from MSY. Outside of that, there are a few metros of 300k plus that are pretty underserved within a 3 hour drive of New Orleans because of leakage. The biggest being BTR also about an hour away which has over 800k in its metro and probably leaks 60%+ of it's traffic to MSY.
 
catiii
Posts: 3768
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:44 pm

cheapgreek wrote:
catiii wrote:
CXA330300 wrote:
Essentially unserved - HVN has three flights a day to PHL. I could see that expanding. 600,000 in the New Haven area.


Problem with HVN is its proximity to BDL, HPN, NYC, and PVD. More choice and better fares has always been an issue stunting growth.


The bigger problem has been the lack on airlines and options in hub airports apart from PHL. Traffic to BDL and especially NYC airports can be very heavy at times on the parking lot known as I-95. It took me three hours to get to EWR due to traffic on I-95 and the Merritt parkway.and BDL is almost in Massachusetts. For many travelers the time to reach these other airports can be one or more hours and if someone is being dropped off or picked up, that can work out to a lot of road time. Allegiant has shown interest in HVN which could spur more flights and airlines. No one expects HVN to be another BDL or HPN, but with several more airlines and flights to 3-4 hub airports, it could be the answer for many travelers looking to avoid long ground travel time and using an airport in the local area. When one looks back on the history of HVN, the runway has been the single biggest issue that has stunted growth, the market is there, many area corporations would use a home town airport along with leisure travelers.
Five more days till the judge offers his verdict.


Putting a high CASM RJ into a market that can't support higher fares isn't the answer, not when the market has shown it will not pay the premium. This isn't an issue of "they don't offer the service, so we don't know" this is an issue of "the market doesn't warrant the service, so they don't do it." The amount of analytics that are behind each market are staggering and have shown that the demand isn't there.
 
HOMER71
Posts: 2142
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:56 pm

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:00 pm

Chuska wrote:
...in New Mexico you have Gallup (GUP)


Flagstaff AZ, don't forget Wynona, Kingman, Barstow, San Bernardino...sorry
"On spaceship earth there are no passengers...only crew."
 
cheapgreek
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:57 pm

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:09 pm

catiii wrote:
cheapgreek wrote:
catiii wrote:

Problem with HVN is its proximity to BDL, HPN, NYC, and PVD. More choice and better fares has always been an issue stunting growth.


The bigger problem has been the lack on airlines and options in hub airports apart from PHL. Traffic to BDL and especially NYC airports can be very heavy at times on the parking lot known as I-95. It took me three hours to get to EWR due to traffic on I-95 and the Merritt parkway.and BDL is almost in Massachusetts. For many travelers the time to reach these other airports can be one or more hours and if someone is being dropped off or picked up, that can work out to a lot of road time. Allegiant has shown interest in HVN which could spur more flights and airlines. No one expects HVN to be another BDL or HPN, but with several more airlines and flights to 3-4 hub airports, it could be the answer for many travelers looking to avoid long ground travel time and using an airport in the local area. When one looks back on the history of HVN, the runway has been the single biggest issue that has stunted growth, the market is there, many area corporations would use a home town airport along with leisure travelers.
Five more days till the judge offers his verdict.


Putting a high CASM RJ into a market that can't support higher fares isn't the answer, not when the market has shown it will not pay the premium. This isn't an issue of "they don't offer the service, so we don't know" this is an issue of "the market doesn't warrant the service, so they don't do it." The amount of analytics that are behind each market are staggering and have shown that the demand isn't there.


Considering AA and US kept service at HVN and even with only 3 daily flights means 2 things, 1. The yields must be good and 2 AA feels there is a market there and is waiting for the runway issue to be settled. As far as fares, in the past I have found fares on some flights to be comparable with other airports. When one factors in the added cost and time of ground travel to reach out of state airports, and BDL is almost out of state, HVN fares are not that bad. The market will surely support more than 3 flights to PHL considering the population base near the airport. I feel AA is waiting with new flights in mind and as the sole carrier at HVN, they can get a head start in attracting new passengers. 2 more days till the trial.
 
CitrusCritter
Posts: 802
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 10:36 am

Re: Unserved markets in the US.

Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:15 pm

Two areas in Florida that are a just a bit too close to the major airports to have service -

Ocala (OCF) with a metro pop around 300k, but about 30 minutes from GNV and about an hour or so from MCO
Lakeland (LAL) with a metro pop just under 600k, but within an hour or so either way from TPA and MCO

Also, Naples (APF) has lost its major airline service. Very wealthy market, but not too far from RSW
- CitrusCritter
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