https://www.economist.com/blogs/gullive ... /te/bl/ed/

Perhaps there are one or two that require 'comfortable shoes'

Not at all surprising considering the source. Why do people support these airlines again?

Old people are the worst, amirite? Such a shame airline execs can't just have their way with whatever flight attendant that catches their eye and then fire them if they don't put out and/or get pregnant.

Actually, the "aged" FA's usually provide better service and don't bitch as much as the middle aged ones going through a mid-life crisis and take it out on passengers. In my many years/flights with the regionals, AA, DL, US, NK, B6, WN, and VX, the "more seniored" FA's and the new hires provide excellent customer service while most of the "mid aged" ones I've come across gripe about their company and act like it's a hassle to have you on-board.

Aha... and employing young crew, offering supposedly exceptional service and running your mouth when you have almost nothing of value to say DOES NOT make you a good (even barely mediocre) CEO, your airline profitable or inspire respect for either you or your airline among the public...

Clown.

Talkin' bout kicking a hornet's nest!

His comments might not be politically correct, but he does have valid point.

Ultimately, airlines are a service industry, but the US because of various reasons (union contracts, labor laws, etc) has fallen in a trap of carrying indeed an older, and yes lets be honest often less enthused FA work force.
Also unlike other US travel industries, (lets think of top end hotel front desk staff) US FA's tend not to age out and move on to other jobs, so they sit doing the same job their entire careers.

Unlike many top global carriers which can employ FA's on fixed terms, with the ability to maintain youth, appearance, and enthusiasm, US airlines are almost jobs for life so long as employee does not commit some serious violation. There is a reason why airlines like SQ, VS, etc win best cabin service awards.

Sad, a very sexist comment.

Unrelated, I was just in an elevator with EY flight attendants yesterday...and

Also, unrelated, but judging from the size of her luggage she makes more money from her export/import business than being a flight attendant.

Why? Does QR have an eternal youth fountain and ther FA doesn´t age? otherwise i don´t think this comment from a CEO has any sense.

Gus
SKBO

Out of curiosity why does the US not utilize fixed term renewable contracts for employment? For any job on society, not just cabin crew??

But in case of cabin crew, if the US had fixed term contracts, people could come out of school, work maybe two 5-year contracts and then move onto other more permanent career fields.

LAXintl wrote:

His comments might not be politically correct, but he does have valid point.

Ultimately, airlines are a service industry, but the US because of various reasons (union contracts, labor laws, etc) has fallen in a trap of carrying indeed an older, and yes lets be honest often less enthused FA work force.
Also unlike other US travel industries, (lets think of top end hotel front desk staff) US FA's tend not to age out and move on to other jobs, so they sit doing the same job their entire careers.

Unlike many top global carriers which can employ FA's on fixed terms, with the ability to maintain youth, appearance, and enthusiasm, US airlines are almost jobs for life so long as employee does not commit some serious violation. There is a reason why airlines like SQ, VS, etc win best cabin service awards.

You really fell into the ageist / eye candy trap there, LAXintl.

There's nothing to correlate ability to provide service and show enthusiasm for flying that correlates with age. (There have been plenty of young-ish FAs from U.S. carrier XX who were just phoning it in, expecting to get paid for attendance instead of service.)

You're going to run into trouble with appearance standards (always subjective) if you demand that FAs be model-worthy. It won't just be the unions - there's federal law and the relevance of standards to the work being performed.

The boss of QR may be a (redacted) and woefully ignorant of U.S. law and custom but one expects better from you

LAXintl wrote:

His comments might not be politically correct, but he does have valid point.

Ultimately, airlines are a service industry, but the US because of various reasons (union contracts, labor laws, etc) has fallen in a trap of carrying indeed an older, and yes lets be honest often less enthused FA work force.
Also unlike other US travel industries, (lets think of top end hotel front desk staff) US FA's tend not to age out and move on to other jobs, so they sit doing the same job their entire careers.

Unlike many top global carriers which can employ FA's on fixed terms, with the ability to maintain youth, appearance, and enthusiasm, US airlines are almost jobs for life so long as employee does not commit some serious violation. There is a reason why airlines like SQ, VS, etc win best cabin service awards.

Well, i think airlines has always have been a service business. But in the core of your post is that older FA´s need to move to another business since certain age or that just cause they´re older they offer a bad service. But that line of reasoning is flawed since it tends to ignore several other reasons (country of origin, cultural changes, corporate changes, and many others that can be tought), and is by that way a litlle "deterministic" (older FA=bad service), i´ve received the worst treatment from very young FA and have received the best attention from old FAs, but even that can´t be used has a true argument to sustain any point. Bad service is an airline problem, but it doesn´t have anything to do with age.

If a person loves what they do and are motivated they will do an excellent job, no matter the age.

Gus
SKBO

mercure1 wrote:

Out of curiosity why does the US not utilize fixed term renewable contracts for employment? For any job on society, not just cabin crew??

But in case of cabin crew, if the US had fixed term contracts, people could come out of school, work maybe two 5-year contracts and then move onto other more permanent career fields.

The world outside the airlines largely is going to "fixed term renewable contracts for employment". It's one form of the "gig economy".

The world inside the airlines is more unionized than the world outside the airlines, so workers actually have some say in what happens, so no "fixed term renewable contracts for employment", at least at the airlines that have FA unions whose collective bargaining agreements disallow them.

And of course there is not a large supply of "other more permanent career fields" that one can jump in to in their late 20s in the US these days.

Apparently in some countries they allow age discrimination in their hiring practices.

While I have noticed a difference betw the quality of service regional v. mainline, there's been no corellation in my observation when the age of the FA is concerned. QR won't get my money, not like they're worried..

I call it like I see it.

I have worked for and with plenty of airlines(and other industries like hotels) in my career to have seen how there is a direct link between service delivery and the ability of the employer to foster and maintain certain workforce characteristic.
Top end hotels are actually an industry that does quite well with managing this actually.

Yes indeed US labor laws do stand in the way to large degree for U.S airlines, which I find sad they cant put their best foot forward, and must do the best they can with less than ideal employee pool often.

Anyhow for those that are in shock, was not too long ago that U.S. airlines could use criteria like appearance, weight, and age, something many of our global competitors employ as the most basic criteria.

And yes, I certainly welcome fixed term contracts in the U.S. Gives both the employer and employee flexibility knowing any commitment is for a fixed period along with clearly defined performance criteria.

ILNFlyer wrote:

Apparently in some countries they allow age discrimination in their hiring practices.

And in the case of these comments, not only do they allow age discrimination, they hugely subsidize unprofitable businesses, with no expectation of ever having a profitable company.

flight152 wrote:

Not at all surprising considering the source. Why do people support these airlines again?

Because they're blinded by the glitter & glamour.

"My airline only exists because of the billions my LNG rich little splinter of a country pumps in to it. Profits? Ha! We don't need that. Your flight attendants are old."

Every time I see a picture of this guy, he reminds me of Mr. Burns.....
Its a reflection of how people are treated in different parts of the world.

So the ME3 decided to jump into the rabbit hole again.

It seems to me many people who have not flown on many of these foreign airlines simply do not see or understand the poor state of service from crews at US major airlines. There is a reason why major US airlines do not win global customer service awards.

It takes a lot more than simply new planes, new cabins to deliver the best experience. It takes the soft touches which are largely the responsibility of cabin crew. Its starts with hiring and takes ongoing training the right person along with discipline and service precision, something that for whatever the reason seems not to be accomplishable by US majors.

LAXintl wrote:

His comments might not be politically correct, but he does have valid point.

Ultimately, airlines are a service industry, but the US because of various reasons (union contracts, labor laws, etc) has fallen in a trap of carrying indeed an older, and yes lets be honest often less enthused FA work force.
Also unlike other US travel industries, (lets think of top end hotel front desk staff) US FA's tend not to age out and move on to other jobs, so they sit doing the same job their entire careers.

Unlike many top global carriers which can employ FA's on fixed terms, with the ability to maintain youth, appearance, and enthusiasm, US airlines are almost jobs for life so long as employee does not commit some serious violation. There is a reason why airlines like SQ, VS, etc win best cabin service awards.

As long as the crew remains "properly and professionally groomed", there is ABSOLUTELY no issues with having an older flight attendant. Take Singapore Airlines In-flight Manager, Ms. Lim Suet Kwee. She is well in her 50's and still looks well groomed and elegant. It all boils down to pride and enthusiasm for the job, which in my opinion, is clearly lacking among U.S based crew.

It is a very offensive statement, to the grandmothers who are pleasant, loving and caring. Haven't heard of a grumpy, power trip and ready to call cops grandmother yet. Please take back your statement, Mr.AAB.

It really is not about age. Some years ago my wife and I were going through security at FRA and watched a bunch of attendants, all ages, of Lufthansa going through also. Uniforms perfect, nice designs, hair in place, well made up, no chubettes etc. Just a few minutes later in marched a US Air crew. Chubby, wrinkled uniforms, hair not nice, not well made up. They were an embarrassment to look at basically. Age issue? No. Pride and crew management issue? Almost certainly.

T54A wrote:

https://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2017/07/old-profession?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/ed/

Perhaps there are one or two that require 'comfortable shoes'

I can't say I disagree with him, a lot of these old warhorses should have been sent to pasture a long time ago. It's the same with SK, lots of older jaded staff that need to go.

There's no issues with "older personnel" providing your clients excellent service, unless, you're in charge and you don't want "older personnel" providing services to your clients. Simple as that.
Whether it's Qatar Airways, a hotel/resort, casino, nightclub, what have you, in the service industry, if the daddy in charge wants sex appeal, then that's what he brings in and he hires. He's calling the shots, he's writing the checks, he's keeping the lights on.

Slam Qatar Airways all you want, "this" continues to happen across all industries, it will continue to happen, and while you can bitch and moan about it, there's not much that will ever change.

Say what you want about his comments, but having flown QR and UA, AA etc., there is no comparison at all regarding service. They are not even the same universe.

QR just hasn't been around long enough to have aged FAs

TonyBurr wrote:

Say what you want about his comments, but having flown QR and UA, AA etc., there is no comparison at all regarding service. They are not even the same universe.

Thant´s more a thing of corporate culture than the age of their FAs

Gus
SKBO

I'm an old guy, so maybe I'm prejudiced on this matter, but age and ability are frequently positively correlated. I remember years ago, when airlines in the U.S. had age limits on in-cabin crew, that Delta seemed to put the more senior (older) attendants in F and the young, cute ones in Y. The service in F was great. From what I understand, the labor practices of the ME3 are not in keeping with what would be acceptable in the U.S. or Europe. There are labor issues with U.S. carriers, but they are not the result of the maturity of the staff.

mercure1 wrote:

It seems to me many people who have not flown on many of these foreign airlines simply do not see or understand the poor state of service from crews at US major airlines. There is a reason why major US airlines do not win global customer service awards.

It takes a lot more than simply new planes, new cabins to deliver the best experience. It takes the soft touches which are largely the responsibility of cabin crew. Its starts with hiring and takes ongoing training the right person along with discipline and service precision, something that for whatever the reason seems not to be accomplishable by US majors.

Probably because most of us here in the US just care about getting from A to B safely, in a reasonable amount of time, and on time.

I'm certainly not pampered outside the time I spend in the aluminum tube, so certainly don't need it for the few hours inside. In fact, because I can bring just about as much as whatever I want to eat/drink with me from the terminal in my bag, I'd just as well not even see a flight attendant for the duration of the trip except in the case of an emergency. Unfortunately, that just isn't possible.

I've seen Al-Baker at a few conferences over the past few years, and the man can't be an inch taller than maybe 5'4" (163cm). Maybe we should start proclaiming that his tiny stature hinders his ability to lead given he doesn't have the 'appearance' of someone in power?

That would be ridiculous no? And yet it's virtually no different from what he's said here. What a clown.

These comments are in no way surprising. Akbar's stance reflects his cultural backround.

This coming from the same man who trivialized and sought to shift the blame for one of the worst safety incidents suffered by a developed-country carrier in this century. Al-Baker is entertaining when he's trying to buy aircraft. But as an operational manager of an airline carrying flesh-and-blood passengers, he is a disgrace.

viewtopic.php?t=599331

Wow, and here I thought that we had left the Stone Age. Leave it to the head of a Middle Eastern airline to make statements like that. Then again, maybe I shouldn't be surprised. It's sad that people look at women this way. Look, I like pretty ladies just as much as the rest of the male population but in the end, where business is concerned all I care about is whether a worker can do the job, or not. I don't care what age the flight attendant is. I care that he or she can fulfill the job duties properly and responsibly.

Al Baker is a sexist idiot, plain and simple. There are several reasons I don't fly the ME3 when going international. Time to add another one.

Super80Fan wrote:

Actually, the "aged" FA's usually provide better service and don't bitch as much as the middle aged ones going through a mid-life crisis and take it out on passengers. In my many years/flights with the regionals, AA, DL, US, NK, B6, WN, and VX, the "more seniored" FA's and the new hires provide excellent customer service while most of the "mid aged" ones I've come across gripe about their company and act like it's a hassle to have you on-board.

I have found this to be true as well, but I have to think the 65-80 year olds working the milk run from Denver to Lihue twice a month don't have a lot of stressors in their work life, versus the folks working the less choice routes. *They* might even be stressed that no one ever seems to retire .

LAXintl wrote:

His comments might not be politically correct, but he does have valid point.

Ultimately, airlines are a service industry, but the US because of various reasons (union contracts, labor laws, etc) has fallen in a trap of carrying indeed an older, and yes lets be honest often less enthused FA work force.
Also unlike other US travel industries, (lets think of top end hotel front desk staff) US FA's tend not to age out and move on to other jobs, so they sit doing the same job their entire careers.

Unlike many top global carriers which can employ FA's on fixed terms, with the ability to maintain youth, appearance, and enthusiasm, US airlines are almost jobs for life so long as employee does not commit some serious violation. There is a reason why airlines like SQ, VS, etc win best cabin service awards.

That is an incredibly uninformed and ill-advised post. Perhaps, using your logic, we should apply that to pilots, too? Maybe we should age out all pilots at 45, because after that, they become less attractive and old....who cares if they have years of experience that will likely make the difference between you arriving alive or dead in a smoking crater.

But I see this age and appearance rule only applies to female flight attendants. Got it.

Personally I love older crew. I've enjoyed flights with NW, DL, ZB and BA - and I find the older crew instill something the younger crew do not. I've yet to meet however a crew member with a comb-over...

LAXintl wrote:

There is a reason why airlines like SQ, VS, etc win best cabin service awards.

Yes, as we all know, the UK does have very weak labor laws.........

LAXintl wrote:

I call it like I see it.

I have worked for and with plenty of airlines(and other industries like hotels) in my career to have seen how there is a direct link between service delivery and the ability of the employer to foster and maintain certain workforce characteristic.
Top end hotels are actually an industry that does quite well with managing this actually.

Yes we do and very happily I have a large number of employees who are over the age of 70....Yes 70 and without a doubt they provide some of the best service in our company, they also serve as great models for the youngsters just starting out.

mercure1 wrote:

It seems to me many people who have not flown on many of these foreign airlines simply do not see or understand the poor state of service from crews at US major airlines. There is a reason why major US airlines do not win global customer service awards.

Airlines flown in last year, in no real order.

Delta, Southwest, United, Swiss, Taca, AeroMexico, AA, LH, BA, VS, B6....All except WN in J or F...

Best service, Southwest and B6, nothing wrong with the others btw and yes, I have said this before, VS, on a good day is hard to beat service wise.

Age has very little to do with service, attitude, training and desire do....Actually, also leadership role models do as well, it's down to management to teach and lead, not make stupid statements regarding your competitors, if you offer a superior product in ALL parts you don't need to put down a competitor, the public figures it out pretty quickly.

We may snicker at his remarks. But, in many corners of the world a lot of people would agree with him. He wants to compete in those areas is my guess.

This coming from a man who regards his flight attendants as personal property, his pilots as his personal drivers.Female attendants are not allowed to "socialize" with men and live in dorms in Qatar.

I personally do not care if flight attendants are more senior or not, it depends on the level of service that they offer. I have often experienced great service from the more senior attendants as well as junior attendants. It all depends, everyone was at one time new to a job. That being said, "flight attendants are there to save your ass, not kiss it".

As to his statement of American carriers being "crap carriers", my cousin, who is a platinum member with Qatar Airways, and flew in business class, recently had to wait for 64 hours for his one piece of lost luggage, to a destination that Qatar and their OW partners serve daily.

Oh, well...one thing about ME3 Flight Attendants...they look the part and honor the profession. Always looking classy, respectable, sharp, professional and elegant. Most FAs in the USA look terrible, no pride...sad but very TRUE...always have an excuse to look messy. Age is not much of an issue...I think grooming appearance is the one US carriers need the most improvement.

What a douchebag this guy is. Just because there's a shred of truth to his point does not mean go out and say it aloud. However, every time I see this guy this is what I think:

+ =

mercure1 wrote:

It seems to me many people who have not flown on many of these foreign airlines simply do not see or understand the poor state of service from crews at US major airlines. There is a reason why major US airlines do not win global customer service awards.

It takes a lot more than simply new planes, new cabins to deliver the best experience. It takes the soft touches which are largely the responsibility of cabin crew. Its starts with hiring and takes ongoing training the right person along with discipline and service precision, something that for whatever the reason seems not to be accomplishable by US majors.

I don't think age matters. They need to be given the proper training and have the right amount of staff on the plane. Service/customer service training and the amount of personal to service the customers. These are costly and are the first things thrown out the window with cost cutting years ago. The way the public looks at FA has changed. To fly on a jet airplane in the 50s 60s And early 70s people for an awe with the technology.

The push for low airfares to me is a large determining factor in this issue it's very complicated. The rich/A listers fly private jets for proper service. To me it's a shame that some of the proper etiquette of the past Is Out of general society today. However more people are flying today then in the 50's -70's.

If you look at the picture in the article, it makes me wonder if this man has looked in the mirror recently....
No age limit or beauty requirements in his job description obviously ( or normal human manners either ).

I fly often on mostly U.S. carriers and remember particular F/A's by how well they perform their duties and interact with others. Not by their appearance. I agree that a lot of the senior flight attendants are more friendly and seem to enjoy their career compared to younger ones.

KFLLCFII wrote:

mercure1 wrote:

It seems to me many people who have not flown on many of these foreign airlines simply do not see or understand the poor state of service from crews at US major airlines. There is a reason why major US airlines do not win global customer service awards.

It takes a lot more than simply new planes, new cabins to deliver the best experience. It takes the soft touches which are largely the responsibility of cabin crew. Its starts with hiring and takes ongoing training the right person along with discipline and service precision, something that for whatever the reason seems not to be accomplishable by US majors.

Probably because most of us here in the US just care about getting from A to B safely, in a reasonable amount of time, and on time.

I'm certainly not pampered outside the time I spend in the aluminum tube, so certainly don't need it for the few hours inside. In fact, because I can bring just about as much as whatever I want to eat/drink with me from the terminal in my bag, I'd just as well not even see a flight attendant for the duration of the trip except in the case of an emergency. Unfortunately, that just isn't possible.

There is amoung many Americans this view get me to point A to B safe and cheap and anything else is a bonus.

Its easy for him to say that since he can essentially 'buy' new 'slaves' from poor countries ad infinitum.