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SCQ83
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The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:47 pm

How long for EK and EY (Qatar does not need to apply) landing in TLV?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... a-j513r5ie

Israel is trying to persuade Saudi Arabia to allow it to send special Hajj pilgrimage flights to Mecca, building on Trump administration efforts to strengthen cooperation between the two nations.

Instead of enduring the 1,000-mile bus route across the Jordan River and through the Saudi desert to reach Islam’s most sacred shrine, Israel hopes its Muslim citizens will be able to fly directly into the kingdom from Tel Aviv’s Ben Gurion International Airport, Communications Minister Ayoob Kara said. Just two months ago, Trump broke a longstanding taboo by flying between the two nations, which do not have formal diplomatic relations or airline links but have drawn closer in recent years due to a shared enemy, Iran.

“Reality has changed,” Kara said in an interview this week at his office in Jerusalem. “This is a good time to make the request, and I’m working hard on it.”
 
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777GE90
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:01 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
How long for EK and EY (Qatar does not need to apply) landing in TLV?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... a-j513r5ie

Israel is trying to persuade Saudi Arabia to allow it to send special Hajj pilgrimage flights to Mecca, building on Trump administration efforts to strengthen cooperation between the two nations.

Instead of enduring the 1,000-mile bus route across the Jordan River and through the Saudi desert to reach Islam’s most sacred shrine, Israel hopes its Muslim citizens will be able to fly directly into the kingdom from Tel Aviv’s Ben Gurion International Airport, Communications Minister Ayoob Kara said. Just two months ago, Trump broke a longstanding taboo by flying between the two nations, which do not have formal diplomatic relations or airline links but have drawn closer in recent years due to a shared enemy, Iran.

“Reality has changed,” Kara said in an interview this week at his office in Jerusalem. “This is a good time to make the request, and I’m working hard on it.”


I suppose anything that brings the Middle East closer to peace is a good move forwards.

Although, in reality I don't see it happening or lasting given history.
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trex8
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:10 pm

Here's a spot for those Malaysian A380s
 
FlyHappy
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:59 pm

my first read was the impossibility of any Israeli plane/crew making this flight, but then I realized what is probably being proposed are Arab or 3rd party charters (carriers otherwise accepted in KSA) who don't normally operate from TLV to make the flights. That seems like something within reach....
 
faucett
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:05 pm

And banking on the previous comment, maybe an airline that operates to both countries, like TK or RJ...
faucett
 
WorldFlier
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:21 pm

trex8 wrote:
Here's a spot for those Malaysian A380s


Hajj only happens once a year. Quite the waste, unless the State of Israel get a killer price for them.

However, they could also double-use it for "Birthright Israel" and save on money because I'm sure there are hundreds of people doing that every week!
 
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Devilfish
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:51 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
my first read was the impossibility of any Israeli plane/crew making this flight, but then I realized what is probably being proposed are Arab or 3rd party charters (carriers otherwise accepted in KSA) who don't normally operate from TLV to make the flights.

Well, with the suspension of a handful of ME routes, PR's and 5J's single-class A330s are not too busy these days. :crowded: Those would well suit the Hajj flights between the two countries. IIRC, Israel had encouraged PR before to start services to TLV. They only have to make the pilgrimage worth the airlines' efforts. :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign:
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Malayil
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:30 pm

Edit
 
berari
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:39 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Instead of enduring the 1,000-mile bus route across the Jordan River and through the Saudi desert to reach Islam’s most sacred shrine, Israel hopes its Muslim citizens will be able to fly directly into the kingdom from Tel Aviv’s Ben Gurion International Airport, Communications Minister Ayoob Kara said


Why does Israel make its citizens do a 1000 mile bus trek? Why can't they fly and connect in Cairo or Amman or Addis Ababa where connectivity already exist? With what Israel is able to pull for its citizens for other causes, why is this seemingly problematic?
 
tjh8402
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:40 pm

berari wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
Instead of enduring the 1,000-mile bus route across the Jordan River and through the Saudi desert to reach Islam’s most sacred shrine, Israel hopes its Muslim citizens will be able to fly directly into the kingdom from Tel Aviv’s Ben Gurion International Airport, Communications Minister Ayoob Kara said


Why does Israel make its citizens do a 1000 mile bus trek? Why can't they fly and connect in Cairo or Amman or Addis Ababa where connectivity already exist? With what Israel is able to pull for its citizens for other causes, why is this seemingly problematic?


From what I was reading, Israeli Muslims have to apply for a specialized Hajj passport from either Jordan or the Palestinian Authority, as KSA will not allow anyone with an Israeli passport to enter (or actually anyone from any country with an Israeli stamp on theirs). The Hajj passport is only a temporary one, which must be turned in immediately after completion of the Hajj. My guess is that this paperwork would make a normal connecting itinerary too difficult, or the passport itself wouldn't even allow travel to outside nations.
 
klakzky123
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:03 am

tjh8402 wrote:
berari wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:


Why does Israel make its citizens do a 1000 mile bus trek? Why can't they fly and connect in Cairo or Amman or Addis Ababa where connectivity already exist? With what Israel is able to pull for its citizens for other causes, why is this seemingly problematic?


From what I was reading, Israeli Muslims have to apply for a specialized Hajj passport from either Jordan or the Palestinian Authority, as KSA will not allow anyone with an Israeli passport to enter (or actually anyone from any country with an Israeli stamp on theirs). The Hajj passport is only a temporary one, which must be turned in immediately after completion of the Hajj. My guess is that this paperwork would make a normal connecting itinerary too difficult, or the passport itself wouldn't even allow travel to outside nations.


This. It boils down to citizenship. Arab Israelis are still Israelis and have to get a temporary passport from Jordan to get into Saudi Arabia (or any country that prohibits Israelis). However, that temporary passport for hajj can't be used for air travel currently and instead is only usable for hajj on very specific bus routes. There are other categories for the temporary passport that can be used for business and family travel that I believe can be used for actual air travel but the hajj one is an exception if I'm not mistaken.

The issue isn't Israel making Arab citizens do anything. But as long as Israeli citizens are banned from Saudi Arabia, Arab Israelis are forced into a fairly complex process to perform hajj.

There was a time when Palestinians in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and some Arab Israeli citizens could actually apply for Jordanian citizenship but that was ended when Jordan and Israel normalized relations. There are still some people who managed to get a true Jordanian passport and for them travel is far less of an issue.

Even for Palestinians, performing hajj is really hard. Palestinians technically do have access to the Palestinian Authority passport but getting visas on that is extremely hard (even to Arab countries). Jordan is the one exception to this rule as Palestinians can freely travel there without a visa.

As for the actual topic, I would suspect RJ would be the most likely airline as they already serve TLV. TK is an option but Turkey and Saudi Arabia aren't exactly on great terms and for that matter Israel and Turkey aren't doing so well either. Jordan seems to be well liked enough to where they could be the intermediary for something like this. I would think RJ could operate some hajj charters if it gained permission.
 
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CanadaFair
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:11 am

A chartered large yacht can take them from Eilat to Jeddah, and Saudi issue a temp document on arrival.
 
klakzky123
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:15 am

CanadaFair wrote:
A chartered large yacht can take them from Eilat to Jeddah, and Saudi issue a temp document on arrival.


Or Aqaba for that matter if the Saudis don't want to create the image of direct travel from Israel to Saudi Arabia. But the numbers of people who want to perform hajj might be too large.

If anything I'd think that even potential charters would still have to land in Amman just to technically preserve the ban on flights from Israel to Saudi Arabia.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:30 am

WorldFlier wrote:
trex8 wrote:
Here's a spot for those Malaysian A380s


Hajj only happens once a year. Quite the waste, unless the State of Israel get a killer price for them.

However, they could also double-use it for "Birthright Israel" and save on money because I'm sure there are hundreds of people doing that every week!


I think trex8 was suggesting *Malaysia* could operate those flights... Since that's exactly what Malaysia was proposing (just not necessarily from Israel).
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
ME720
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:23 pm

Will not happen! As unlikely as IR at LAX!
Not before a comprehensive peace treaty between Israel and Saudi Arabia. that peace is highly unlikely before Israel Recognises a viable Palestinian state.
 
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yowza
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:13 pm

Is the plan to only issue one way tickets? :)

Seriously though, regional dynamics being what they are there is no way the Saudis can soften up on Israel while they have the Qataris over a barrel. Right?
 
nadavatar64
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:09 pm

On paper it seems like a good idea, there are about a million and a half muslim citizens in Israel. But in reality, there is no way it is going to work unfortunately.
 
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CanadaFair
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:49 pm

yowza wrote:
Is the plan to only issue one way tickets? :)

Seriously though, regional dynamics being what they are there is no way the Saudis can soften up on Israel while they have the Qataris over a barrel. Right?

Its more like gulf states don't care about any other non-gulf Muslims, look what they did to one of their own during holy Ramadan.
 
klakzky123
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:24 pm

yowza wrote:
Is the plan to only issue one way tickets? :)

Seriously though, regional dynamics being what they are there is no way the Saudis can soften up on Israel while they have the Qataris over a barrel. Right?


Yeah I dont think anything is going to happen. This was a topic in 2014 as well. Israel thought they were close to getting hajj visas for Arab Israelis only to see that fall apart too. I did read that Arab Israelis with the temporary one month Jordanian passport can technically pay for flights now via Amman now but there are still no charters from TLV which is what Israel wants in addition to hajj visas. Plus crossing the Allenby Bridge to go to Amman can be quite a headache and is subject to closure fairly frequently. It makes flying commercially quite a challenge at times if you have to go to Amman instead of flying directly from Tel Aviv.
 
NichCage
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:40 pm

I don't think this will happen at all. Israel and Saudi Arabia may be warming up, but Saudi Arabia still doesn't recongize Israel. Along with that, I don't think flights between Israel and Saudi Arabia (even on a charter basis) will be allowed. But I will believe it if it happens.
 
c7aero
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:54 pm

"Instead of enduring the 1,000-mile bus route across the Jordan River and through the Saudi desert to reach Islam’s most sacred shrine..." Does that mean Israeli Muslim pilgrims may not be allowed into KSA if they fly from AMM to JED?
Lifetime miles flown so far: + – 3.2 million.
Airports in 2018 in cron order: BON CUR AUA MIA SCL JFK LHR HEL BKK HKT DEL IXM MAA VNS HJR UDR BOM IXU LIM MEX FLL ORD ZCO PUQ PMC DFW SNA SEA DUS RTM LCY DUB LGA EZE IGR AEP GRU MAD ARN GOT BRU CGN STN SNN
 
blacksoviet
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:06 am

WorldFlier wrote:
trex8 wrote:
Here's a spot for those Malaysian A380s


Hajj only happens once a year. Quite the waste, unless the State of Israel get a killer price for them.

However, they could also double-use it for "Birthright Israel" and save on money because I'm sure there are hundreds of people doing that every week!

Birthright Israel would be better served by dedicated 762s.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:44 am

I honestly believe that a third party might do the flying, with Israir selling the tickets, but someone like Hi Fly or EuroAtlantic providing the metal (I can't rule out a Turkish A343 in a Y354 configuration though). As it is currently, such special passports are handled by Jordan, the only country in the Levant with relations with Israel.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:58 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Birthright Israel would be better served by dedicated 762s.

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Welcome back bs!

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It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
solarflyer22
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:27 am

I hope they do. If anything they're going to radicalize their muslims like they do with everyone elses. The real irony is they wont let Qatar fly in, a tribe they are distantly related too.
 
raylee67
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:09 am

This is so not going to happen. A more realistic compromise would be Saudi allows Israeli Arabs to travel by plane via Amman with their special one-time Jordanian passport, either by flying on Royal Jordanian TLV-AMM and AMM-JED flights with two different tickets, or at best (if Saudi feels like to be generous) by direct charter TLV-AMM-JED flights operated by Jordanian air carriers.
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ME720
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:02 pm

And now suddenly Israel is. Inverness about the comfort of its Muslim citizens? Hypocracy is killing me!!
Israel can start by facilitating travel by land to the West Bank and Jordan before even considering requests from Saudi or other Arab countries.. keeping in mind that check points that keep people waiting and blocked at Allenby bridge are manned by Israeli soldiers..
 
ME720
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:07 pm

Best option remains travel via Jordan..
For Israeli citizens with duel Palestinian or Jordanian documents .. for those only carrying Israeli documents, tough luck!!
Exactly same scenario for millions of Middle Eastern Christians who can not visit Jerusalem. Only option is to wait for A peace treaty that will open borders for all.
 
OSUk1d
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:09 pm

ME720 wrote:
And now suddenly Israel is. Inverness about the comfort of its Muslim citizens? Hypocracy is killing me!!
Israel can start by facilitating travel by land to the West Bank and Jordan before even considering requests from Saudi or other Arab countries.. keeping in mind that check points that keep people waiting and blocked at Allenby bridge are manned by Israeli soldiers..


Citizens.. Israelis.. not "Palestinians."
who do you expect to man it? Mickey Mouse?
 
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Channex757
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Re: The State of Israel looking at Tel Aviv-Jeddah flights for Hajj pilgrims

Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:50 pm

One good sign.....the fact that they are "talking about it" means there is at least a backchannel open between Saudi Arabia and Israel. From such small beginnings can eventual agreements flow.

My personal take would be that KSA would consider a third party charter from a majority Muslim nation acceptable, which means Jordan Turkey or Egypt are in the running. For the sort of numbers a 738W might be the plane discussed.

As KSA wants to be seen to be more progressive these days with King Salman and a younger Crown Prince running the show, then maybe that passport issue isn't insurmountable. I certainly don't see a 4X- registered plane sat at Jeddah or Medina anytime soon but an SU- registered one might work.

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