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Brixerl
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Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:32 pm

This time, the news concerning BER revolves not around postponements of the opening date and technical problems. It deals with the urgently needed future extension.

A very interesting proposal seems to be on the table in the background, thanx to a suggestion of an agency of urban planning. Thomas Heilmann, former Berlin senator and candidate for Bundestag at the elections in autumn, uncovered this in an interview with the Berlin newspaper Tagesspiegel. He says, that in the medium term there needs to be built a third runway.

EXTRAORDINARY IDEA: The third runway should be built in Sperenberg, former candidate for the new airport, and opened for long haul traffic 24 hours/7 days. Runways one and two in Schönefeld - for short and medium haul - should be closed between 24 and 6. The idea: After the check in at BER a special high speed train line should bring the passengers to the waiting airplanes at Sperenberg. The distance? As the crow flies 29,9 km. On todays roads 39,2 km.

Something similar has been proposed for Zürich Kloten: A fourth runway at the Dübendorf-airport. Distance 6,8 km (beeline).

This new brainstorming includes the construction of additional terminals at BER. The aforementioned politician is cited in the interview, that there are intense discussions in the background, how the future expansion of Berlins airport system could look like:

BER:
Extension in some form is a must to cater to future needs. See above.

TXL:
Should be kept open after the BER-opening, till the necessary future expansions are finalized.

SXF:
Terminals should be rebuilt and integrated into BER. After that TXL might be closed.
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:43 pm

Interesting, but far from ideal for the traveler.
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg!

Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:48 pm

Sperenberg again. This guy does not know what he is talking about. A remote runway out in the contaminated Woods still Needs all the infrastructure that is necessary to Service an aircraft, including gates and waiting rooms. What about security? What about customs, what about cargo? All that for a Hand ful of Long haul flights double infrastructure and the extreme cost of a dedicated HSR line. This is the dumbest Thing I heard this year. To make that even remotely work medium haul flights would Need to be diverted to that external runway. in any case, passengers of more than one flight would Need to mix on one Train, again a security threat. Passengers would likely go through Screening again.

Dübendorf is an existing Airport with the complete infrastructure and it might relieve ZRH from GA and Biz traffic. Sperenberg is nothing but contaminated wasteland.
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:57 pm

This isn't a 3rd runway for BER as PanHAM notes, this is a 2nd airport with all the needs of a 2nd airport.

I'm all for building airports on 'contaminated wasteland.' But 39.2 km further away is just too far from the customer base. Not to mention planes fly in BER and out this other runway? Is there going to be a 40km long taxiway?
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:27 pm

A loooong time strategy, say 50 years out, would aim for something right between the cities of Berlin and Leipzig, next to some rail line. That's the way to go.
Redevelop the areas of some former prussian to soviet military firing ranges at Jüterbog for example. Sandy places not good for farms and owned by the federal government. Plus: In serious need of ammo cleaning. No tree hugging. Ready to build on.
 
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:43 pm

How's about they get BER open before starting to think outside of the box? If I recall correctly, outside the box thinking is exactly why BER has sat idle all these years.
 
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:10 pm

The basic concept is actually quite a good idea, really. You want an airport near to major population centres, but the population centre doesn't want the noise. So locate your terminal centrally in the city - fully integrated with the public transport system, and operate a bonded HSR link to the physical airfield for passengers and bags. When replacing airports, there's even the option to retain the primary 'airport' at the existing location.

The cost of the link would be high, but the further you travel from major cities the cheaper land gets, which is an important consideration, plus less opposition (cost) in the planning process. I'd also question whether a true HSR link would take longer than having to take regular transport to the airport, especially in the current drive to increase the use of public transport. Meanwhile cargo and service vehicles etc... can still access via the overland road network, and your workers can chose between either options.


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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:50 pm

First of all I don't really see how BER will need a 3rd runway so soon. Current estimates see the projected passenger count at around 35 million annually - MUC serves 43 million with 2 runways, in 2011 (before the opening of 07L/25R) FRA handled 56 million on technically 2.5 runways and let's not forget about LHR.

Second, this is beyond impractical and would probably carry an enormous price tag:
For the system to operate conveniently you'd need trains departing at least at 5 minute headways which would require at least 4- but probably 6-tracked termini at each end, all in the secure airside area. And those will have to be real trains not just your average APM terminal shuttle, best suited would be a Maglev train like the one connecting PVG with the city. That train has a travel time of 7-8 minutes over a pretty much equal distance which might make it seem somewhat realistic but let's not forget we're talking about Berlin and BER here.
They don't even manage to finish a regular airport so they should probably keep their hands off a revolutionary concept like that one... :duck:
Q400 E175 E190 CRJ7 CRJ9 CRJX MD88 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A359 B733 B73G B738 B739 B748 B764 B772 B77W B788 B789
FRA STR HAM TXL MUC ZRH ACE BRU BLL DUB MAN ARN MAD OPO LIS FNC AMS PHL RDU LGA CLT EWR ORD ATL SFO MDW IAD YYZ SJO PTY
 
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:38 pm

What an insane idea... it would be less costly to pay to wipe the towns in the flight path of BER.
 
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:39 pm

BER get's a 3rd runway before LHR and it's not even open! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:57 pm

lightsaber wrote:
This isn't a 3rd runway for BER as PanHAM notes, this is a 2nd airport with all the needs of a 2nd airport.

I'm all for building airports on 'contaminated wasteland.' But 39.2 km further away is just too far from the customer base. Not to mention planes fly in BER and out this other runway? Is there going to be a 40km long taxiway?


Similar situation in Brussels at the end of WWII:
"To take off with passengers the pilots had to drive their aircraft on the kilometres long taxiway from Haren to Melsbroek. Sometimes they flew empty between the two aerodromes."

Just a tad shorter taxiway than what is proposed here. :D

https://www.brusselsairport.be/en/corporate/history/melsbroek
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:01 am

C010T3 wrote:
What an insane idea... it would be less costly to pay to wipe the towns in the flight path of BER.

Would it actually?

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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:05 am

lugie wrote:
First of all I don't really see how BER will need a 3rd runway so soon. Current estimates see the projected passenger count at around 35 million annually - MUC serves 43 million with 2 runways, in 2011 (before the opening of 07L/25R) FRA handled 56 million on technically 2.5 runways and let's not forget about LHR.

Second, this is beyond impractical and would probably carry an enormous price tag:
For the system to operate conveniently you'd need trains departing at least at 5 minute headways which would require at least 4- but probably 6-tracked termini at each end, all in the secure airside area. And those will have to be real trains not just your average APM terminal shuttle, best suited would be a Maglev train like the one connecting PVG with the city. That train has a travel time of 7-8 minutes over a pretty much equal distance which might make it seem somewhat realistic but let's not forget we're talking about Berlin and BER here.
They don't even manage to finish a regular airport so they should probably keep their hands off a revolutionary concept like that one... :duck:


I agree.

When it comes to crazy ideas, I think I'm going to go with the circular runway concept... :lol:
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:46 am

I really don't understand the need for this. While I understand there is a terminal capacity shortage at BER, plenty of airports handle far more traffic than BER is expected to handle with a pair of independent parallel runways. This is especially true since BER isn't a hub and therefore doesn't need tightly scheduled banks. Moreover, a lot of its flights are LCC 737/A320s with relatively high passenger counts per aircraft, not small RJs.

Leaving all that aside, they clearly need to just get the terminal with a pair of runways working before they start talking about fanciful schemes to add further capacity.

It seems like the clear logical solution is to somehow fix the BER terminal, renovate SXF for the ULCC traffic, and once that's done, work on getting planning permission for a third runway (independent parallel if possible, close parallel otherwise). But doing the simple thing hasn't been the choice for BER so far.
 
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:48 am

Sounds like a very complicated version of boarding by bus.
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:23 am

ro1960 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
This isn't a 3rd runway for BER as PanHAM notes, this is a 2nd airport with all the needs of a 2nd airport.

I'm all for building airports on 'contaminated wasteland.' But 39.2 km further away is just too far from the customer base. Not to mention planes fly in BER and out this other runway? Is there going to be a 40km long taxiway?


Similar situation in Brussels at the end of WWII:
"To take off with passengers the pilots had to drive their aircraft on the kilometres long taxiway from Haren to Melsbroek. Sometimes they flew empty between the two aerodromes."

Just a tad shorter taxiway than what is proposed here. :D

https://www.brusselsairport.be/en/corporate/history/melsbroek

When HKG was doing the 3rd runway study, they've also considered putting the third runway to the west of Tuen Mun, just next to Shenzhen, or on the other side of Lantau Islands. I am not really sure about why are those listed as an option as a third runway of the airport instead of an airport of their own especially when those options include their own land side and air side facilities.
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:21 am

Reading anything about this Berlin airport as an outsider is downright hilarious.
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:29 am

Why not just build a taxiway to the "3rd runway"
 
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:44 am

lightsaber wrote:
This isn't a 3rd runway for BER as PanHAM notes, this is a 2nd airport with all the needs of a 2nd airport.

I'm all for building airports on 'contaminated wasteland.' But 39.2 km further away is just too far from the customer base. Not to mention planes fly in BER and out this other runway? Is there going to be a 40km long taxiway?


Well if they are building a high speed rail line and check in and security were at the main terminal, wouldn't they still need gates at this facility 30 or 40 kms away? So is the entire train connector going to be sterile from a security point of view a la KLIA satellite terminal?

TWA772LR wrote:
BER get's a 3rd runway before LHR and it's not even open! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


That made my day.

cskok8 wrote:
Why not just build a taxiway to the "3rd runway"


That's like at least 12 12,000 feet long runways laid end to end if in a straight line. The planes can just take of from this taxi way, if the pilot were adventurous.
 
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:57 am

This idea came from someone who obviously has no clue how aviation works. asically, such an "auxilliary field" must be an Airport of itself, with all the infrastructure. The guy behind this brain fart thinks that just a runway without terminals and an HSR line do the trick. It's lime assuming Tamiami Training field would solve capacity Problems at KMIA and all it would Need to realize that is a Gator Express
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:06 am

I don´t see the need to use Sperenberg when south of BER there´s virtually nothing and a third parallel runway can easily be built.
As many others pointed out above, before needing a third runway, BER will need more Terminal capacity. Let´s firt open BER, expand its Terminals and then we can talk about a third runway.
 
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Brixerl
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:18 am

Some basic informations:

BER: In the plan approval order for BER the maximum number of movements is defined as 360.000. With the mix of aircraft types used in TXL and SXF today that would translate into a capacity of 45 million passengers a year concerning the two runways. The terminal-infrastructure can handle 27 million passengers a year. To get to the max-number of 45 million passengers you need more terminals.

TXL and SXF today: In 2016 32,9 million passengers were cleared thru the two existing Berlin airports. As you can see, these are 5,9 million more than the max capacity of BER standalone.

BER standalone in the future: In 2016 there was a passenger-increase of 36,7 percent in SXF and 1,2 percent in TXL (even though already more than maxed out). Together the increase is 11,6 percent. This means - if those numbers stay the same, we are speaking of a plus of 3,8 million per year. If BER really opens in 2019 the capacity should be 40,5 million, but is 27 million (terminal-wise). The max capacity of 45 million runway-wise with more terminals (that need to be built) should be reached 2021. A little bit more than one year after opening.
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:00 am

The idea itself is nice and I see no reason to be so hostile and offensive against it, as many posters here.

Of course it will not be needed in the near future - the real bottleneck is terminal capacity for quite a long time. Even if the proposed idea does not work (which is quite expected), it makes sense to study all possible alternatives and compare their costs and benefits. Future innovations in technology and other restrictions may change the balance between alternatives.

I think one of the main reasons was to circumvent the night curfew. That is politically set and can be politically changed, for whichever direction.
 
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:13 am

Serenberg is not a nice idea but inpractical BS. Have you asked yourself who is going to pay for that? The aditionaöl costs for the HSR line alone would be gigantic and other than the Inventor thinks, it would have to be a mix of Long and medium haul. Not workable from the pricing alone.
Freight would have to be trucked in bond, Import as well as Export freight. The cost could not be added to the weight Charge. There are no positive aspects, not even noise. Whoever believes that there won't be NIMBYs in remote places should be Aware for some surprises. NIMBYs are growing on trees and there are plenty of trees in Sperenberg which will be defended at all costs.
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ro1960
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:40 am

BTW a similar topic has been active for a few days already with many ideas discussed here.

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1367685
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:03 am

Think BER needs to work out how to actually open before they need a third runway.
 
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:36 am

Balaguru wrote:
So is the entire train connector going to be sterile from a security point of view a la KLIA satellite terminal?


KLIA is exactly what I thought of as well. Looked at like that, it's not so crazy really - check in, passport control and security, board train, ten minutes later leave train and head for gate.

It just means they need some very good security fencing all along the track - but there was a secure corridor from the West to Berlin before so I'm sure they have the experience... :D
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:54 am

I have often thought that a similar system could work in London. Link Luton, Heathrow and Gatwick with a high-speed airside railway. You could check in at any airport for flights from any other and a 600m extension of the runway at Luton would allow some long-haul flights to operate to key destinations such as New York. This would negate the need for a third runway at LHR and the environmental impact of people from the North having to get to LHR or LGW would be vastly reduced.
 
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:14 am

There is somthing funny about airports here..
Our politicians in germany and airports is an endless and disappointing story. Brought up, every election-time. Saxony-anhalt rebuilt an former soviet Airfiled, now Cochstedt CSO, with millions. Now it sit´s there as an international airport doin´nothing at all. But the need for it was tremendous.And there where plans to connect it per rail to Magdeburg and even Berlin to serve as an Airport for Berlin!
 
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:14 am

It is frustrating to see politicians preferring to propose ideas like this that are out of touch with reality rather than supporting the obvious: simply keep -existing infrastructure- open! Berlin needs TXL.
 
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:47 am

Shouldn't BER learn to walk before it can run( or fly for that matter)!
 
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Balaguru wrote:
So is the entire train connector going to be sterile from a security point of view a la KLIA satellite terminal?


KLIA is exactly what I thought of as well. Looked at like that, it's not so crazy really - check in, passport control and security, board train, ten minutes later leave train and head for gate.

It just means they need some very good security fencing all along the track - but there was a secure corridor from the West to Berlin before so I'm sure they have the experience... :D


Thinking further - for those complaining that the new runway would effectively be a new airport - you could also make it more like the Schiphol Polderbaan - instead of having a satellite terminal complete with restaurant facilities and gates, put the gates in the main airport terminal and let them exit onto the trains... so you have trains dedicated to each flight. Then at the other end the same thing - train arrives and all passengers are guided to a single aircraft. That could be a system of doors opening to certain corridors to the airbridges, or the platform could exit straight to waiting buses.

This way you have minimum facilities at the satellite runway - basically just a station with a baggage terminal plus the necessary refueling, security and emergency services. And for passengers it will be rather like using the Polderbaan - just ten minutes in a train instead of twenty minutes taxiing.
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:03 pm

The point seems to be that different people have to build and manage every next airport whatever concept it might be. The same people might just mess it up all over again. I'd suggest to take some professional company, the ones that build refineries, car factories or whatever you want globally regardless of jungles or polar tundra. These guys would get it going.
 
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:35 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Thinking further - for those complaining that the new runway would effectively be a new airport - you could also make it more like the Schiphol Polderbaan - instead of having a satellite terminal complete with restaurant facilities and gates, put the gates in the main airport terminal and let them exit onto the trains... so you have trains dedicated to each flight. Then at the other end the same thing - train arrives and all passengers are guided to a single aircraft. That could be a system of doors opening to certain corridors to the airbridges, or the platform could exit straight to waiting buses.


Now I'm starting to imagine a small number of track terminations at each end, each with a platform to each side of the train, each platform serving a handful of gates. Commence boarding and hold passengers at the doors to the platform, then when the gate is closed and the train and platform are "clean", open the doors. Same situation in reverse at the other end. You can then have a couple of platforms occupied by trains ready for boarding / arrivals at any time. Use a couple of extra sidings for baggage and freight operations (with a different type of train).

Have two tracks dedicated to "regular" outbound/inbound passengers and baggage. Service trains (staff, aircrew, passengers under escort (late arrivals, wheelchair users, VIPs...), etc.) would either have to be slotted in between the regular trains or they could get their own third dedicated track.

The more I think about it the more I like it.
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Interflug74
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:11 pm

They could not even install the sprinkler system right in BER, and you talk about an trainsystem and extra sidings..^^
 
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:47 pm

Perhaps I am completely mistaken, but I thought they were merely expanding the existing facilities at Berlin Schönefeld Airport with new runways and terminal buildings, and rename the expanded airport complex as BER.

As I understand, the 2 runways meant for BER are already in use as a part of Schönefeld Airport, and that the only part of the expansion that is holding up the completion of the project is the newly built terminal building that does not meet the building/fire-safety regulations, and that it would cost more to bring the new terminal into compliance than to rebuild it from scratch. How long would it take to design and build a new airport terminal?

The option seems clear.

I think I'll crawl back under a rock now.
 
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:54 pm

Last time I checked Polderbaan was still connected to the AMS terminal complex.

An auxilliary runway might work for Military ops, it does not for civilian use. It would Need all the Services which are necessary to Service flights, from Tower to waste trucks, with buildings and all.. Train Transit times would Need to be added to total fligh times like the mobile Lounges at IAD. Another stupid System. You think you have arrived at your Destination just to be confined in another tube wasting 10 to 20 minutes. May be tolerable on a Long distance flight bt not on a medium haul. And the System would Need m(h flights, there simply ain't enough long haul connections in Berlin.

And again, customs, Immigration, cargo, security are issues which are unresolved. In a Police state, which the GDR was, a sterile corridor can be arranged. Besides that nobody wanted to flee into that state. in a Democracy it can't.. An illegal Immigrant or a terrorist simply pulls an emergency handle and jumps the Train, Nothing an nobody can prevent such a Situation. .
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A350
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:13 pm

We should keep in mind that there is another airport which alredy exists: Neuhardenberg / EDON. It was used in the 90s for government flights between Berlin and Bonn with Tu-154s. There have been plans to open it as LCC airport for Berlin, there even is a local group ("Bürgerinitiative") in favour of it. The only thing missing is political support, the government of Brandenburg is fighting it fiercly because it wants BER as the only airport in Brandenburg. FR was interested, however, it was a long time ago, in 2004. So, the airport capacity in the region of Berlin exists.

Wikipedia entry in german only: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flugplatz_Neuhardenberg
 
TRENT1000TEN
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:28 pm

Spiderguy252 wrote:
Reading anything about this Berlin airport as an outsider is downright hilarious.


seriously

cskok8 wrote:
Why not just build a taxiway to the "3rd runway"


Schiphol's 18R/36L Polderbaan comes to mind :rotfl:
 
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:50 pm

In 2016, SXF and TXL combined for 282,000 movements. With a 360,000 movement cap at BER, that still leaves plenty of room for growth. After that, with two independent parallel runways, BER can clearly handle considerably more than 360,000 movements. EWR and DXB, both of whose parallel runways are too close to operate independently, handle well over 400,000 movements. Raising the cap would surely be the more rational move, and it would likely be easier politically than getting an entire new runway built.
 
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:53 pm

PanHAM wrote:
Last time I checked Polderbaan was still connected to the AMS terminal complex.


Polderbaan is certainly physically separated from the main Schiphol area.

PanHAM wrote:
It would Need all the Services which are necessary to Service flights, from Tower to waste trucks, with buildings and all..


Polderbaan also has its own tower and emergency services buildings. And I mentioned that you would need some service buildings and staff at the remote runway for loading baggage, fuel and catering. But with all other terminal services being at the other end of the line, you can get away with a pretty minimalist set up - not unlike a military base. ;)

PanHAM wrote:
Train Transit times would Need to be added to total fligh times


I also mentioned that these would probably be less than the taxi times at Polderbaan... so again, how is this so different?

PanHAM wrote:
And again, customs, Immigration, cargo, security are issues which are unresolved.


I described how I imagine customs, immigration, cargo and security could be resolved... you continue to dismiss things I've already covered!

PanHAM wrote:
An illegal Immigrant or a terrorist simply pulls an emergency handle and jumps the Train, Nothing an nobody can prevent such a Situation. .


I would think that two rows of metres-high, razor-wire topped fencing with CCTV everywhere is more secure than your average airport perimeter (I was observing how easy it looked to jump over from the road next to the Polderbaan last time I was taxiing there...) - but in the most extreme case you can probably make a fencing "tunnel" along the whole route and it would still be relatively cheap in the BER scale of things... :)
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:21 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Polderbaan is certainly physically separated from the main Schiphol area.


What's taxiway V then, if it's not a physical connection?


The suggested scheme is more akin to Checking In at AMS and being ferried (ground transport) airside to RTM. (RTM being remote stands of AMS and the whole lot being called AMS)
 
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:31 pm

Runway 7R-25L at Schönefeld/Brandenburg is 13,000 feet long. If that is a runway restricted only for medium range traffic what constitutes one for long range, 18,000 feet?
 
horsepowerchef
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:08 pm

Who ever wrote this article must own a construction company. They couldn't get 1 airport right, now they want to see if they can get people on board to build a second one...
 
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ro1960
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:22 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Thinking further - for those complaining that the new runway would effectively be a new airport - you could also make it more like the Schiphol Polderbaan - instead of having a satellite terminal complete with restaurant facilities and gates, put the gates in the main airport terminal and let them exit onto the trains... so you have trains dedicated to each flight. Then at the other end the same thing - train arrives and all passengers are guided to a single aircraft. That could be a system of doors opening to certain corridors to the airbridges, or the platform could exit straight to waiting buses.

This way you have minimum facilities at the satellite runway - basically just a station with a baggage terminal plus the necessary refueling, security and emergency services.


You'll also need to duplicate most ancillary services. And what about checked bags? And cargo? Would they also travel on these trains?

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
And for passengers it will be rather like using the Polderbaan - just ten minutes in a train instead of twenty minutes taxiing.


Your math is wrong. You're comparing the time it takes to get passengers to the gate with taxiing time. Two different things! Taxiing would also be necessary at the remote field.
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:02 am

@somebodyinTLS - you have been corrected already, Polerbaan indeed is connected to the terminal area at AMS. FRA has 3 Towers and 3 fire statrions, the laest additions for the northern landing runway- These are all part of the Airport complex.
This brain fart idea we are discussing here would be an auxilliary field which would be unique in the world, except for Tamiami and some Training fields in the FL panhandle.. What the "Inventor" seems not to understand is that there are safety and security requirements which would be difficult to solve. I haven't seen practical Solutions iin your contributions either, sorry to say that. Barbed wire fencing of the Train tracks would be a safety risk for passengers in case of an accident and as such certainly not approved.

The additional costs would not be absorbed by Airlines and by passengers, so who's gonna pay for it?

We had this issue when politicians said that "cargo" could be transferred to HHN (from FRA= not knowing that 50% is carried on Pax aircraft. That was not the only issue. LHCargo would have needed to open a base at HHN with extra costs of 100 Million € p.a. and it would have needed 30000 truck movements p.a. which certanly the shippers would not have paid. If Governments regulate Governments eould have to pay. Lucky enough we have a Society where such brain farts cannot be forced upon the General public. At the end of the day the marked solves such Problems.
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:49 am

A350 wrote:
We should keep in mind that there is another airport which alredy exists: Neuhardenberg / EDON. It was used in the 90s for government flights between Berlin and Bonn with Tu-154s. There have been plans to open it as LCC airport for Berlin, there even is a local group ("Bürgerinitiative") in favour of it. The only thing missing is political support, the government of Brandenburg is fighting it fiercly because it wants BER as the only airport in Brandenburg. FR was interested, however, it was a long time ago, in 2004. So, the airport capacity in the region of Berlin exists.

Wikipedia entry in german only: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flugplatz_Neuhardenberg


Just checked this out on google maps. The Runway seems to be surrounded by solar panels. Is that what those are?
 
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:19 am

Perhaps I am completely mistaken, but I thought they were merely expanding the existing facilities at Berlin Schönefeld Airport with new runways and terminal buildings, and rename the expanded airport complex as BER.

No mistakes, that is actually a perfect sum-up. With only one thing to add: one of SXF's (perfectly usable) runways was bulldozed in the process. In other words, all that was needed for a third runway... was to not bulldoze the one that was already there.

But as I wrote before: the answer is already there, has been there for decades, and the only thing you need to do is keep it open just as it is, as opposed to shutting it down (THF) or bulldozing it (SXF north runway). It is called TXL.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:13 pm

PlymSpotter wrote:
The basic concept is actually quite a good idea, really. You want an airport near to major population centres, but the population centre doesn't want the noise. So locate your terminal centrally in the city - fully integrated with the public transport system, and operate a bonded HSR link to the physical airfield for passengers and bags. When replacing airports, there's even the option to retain the primary 'airport' at the existing location.

Really? What's so good about having to add the cost of building and operating a HSR to the budget? Right now the pax themselves pay to transport themselves to the airport. WHat you propose now adds a cost element to this new airport, one that its competition won't have to pay.

What about the need for all the travelers to add the time to embark and disembark and travel the 30 km even if it is at 300 km/hr? How many missed flights is that going to cause?

If you don't build out the facilities at the airport, then the person who happens to live next to the airport has to transport themselves to the city center just to use the airport they live right next to.

I agree with the poster who labeled this proposal as a brain fart. BER needs to be able to design escalators that do not terminate at a flight of stairs before they can hope to pull this kind of fantasy off.
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Re: Third runway for BER Airport proposed - check-in at BER, runway in distant Sperenberg (29,9 km)!

Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:56 pm

PanHAM wrote:
The additional costs would not be absorbed by Airlines and by passengers, so who's gonna pay for it?
I know it was a rhetorical question, but I'll just say it for emphasis: Of course it's the stupid tax payer who's paying for it in full. :banghead:

A runway 20 or 25 miles away from the actual airport shows how these people are far too incompetent to build a new airport. Even the Polderbaan isn't something as extreme as was proposed for BER. On a personal note, last time I departed from AMS, I feared that we'd depart from the Polderbaan but fortunately, I believe we departed from the Kaagbaan. :relieved:
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