BravoOne
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:20 pm

Chemist wrote:
KentB27 wrote:
Honestly a 5 hour + flight on WN to Hawaii seems pretty damn miserable though so I wouldn't even be interested if there was such a service.

.


Honestly I'd rather fly on WN with somewhat decent seat pitch and a generally customer-friendly crew than the tight-pitch US3 and surly flight attendants.


What bunch of crap. Save you BS stories for some other thread.
 
swafa
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:33 am

Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:30 pm

I know talk of mergers/acquisitions are near anathema for some on this sight, but...it seems like a WN/AS union could have significant benefits for both parties. Not least of which would be an immediate, and fairly large, presence for WN in Hawaii; a market that some believe is saturated.
 
commavia
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:45 pm

swafa wrote:
I know talk of mergers/acquisitions are near anathema for some on this sight, but...it seems like a WN/AS union could have significant benefits for both parties. Not least of which would be an immediate, and fairly large, presence for WN in Hawaii; a market that some believe is saturated.


I think any such "significant benefits" for Southwest - undoubtedly the acquirer in this hypothetical scenario - would be more than offset by the costs. To begin with the obvious, a hypothetical Southwest acquisition of Alaska would, absent dramatic (and unlikely) changes at Southwest, render a huge portion of Alaska's network non-viable. Plus, the integration costs and challenges of integrating two carriers that different would be immense - incredibly, it would dwarf the cultural mismatch of Alaska/Virgin. And beyond all that, given the intense overlap between these two airlines in the western U.S., I highly doubt it would ever get regulatory approval without such significant regulatory concessions required so as to, again, render the entire underlying economic logic of the deal moot.

Bottom line - if (when?) Southwest wants into Hawaii, it's likely going to have to do so itself. But that's going to necessitate some hard work - just like what Southwest is now dealing with in the Mexico, Central America and Caribbean. That's what comes of being very late to a "party" where multiple of your lowest-cost, most established and/or most nimble competitors were also invited, and all showed up "on time" instead of "(un)fashionably late."
 
DfwAussie
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:45 pm

XRadar98 wrote:
rph99 wrote:
How far inland will the A32l LR be able to fly from Hawaii? LAS! KPHX? KDEN???


And this question belongs in this thread why?


Perhaps because HA will be flying them, and likely with increased frequency, to just about any city WN would offer service from. They didn't order those Airbii to fly to Japan. It's likely they'll be mixed with 332's on the routes with the most pax, and on some cities, change out the 332 with a couple of more 321s. Hows that?
 
BravoOne
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:53 pm

Chemist wrote:
KentB27 wrote:
Honestly a 5 hour + flight on WN to Hawaii seems pretty damn miserable though so I wouldn't even be interested if there was such a service.

.


Honestly I'd rather fly on WN with somewhat decent seat pitch and a generally customer-friendly crew than the tight-pitch US3 and surly flight attendants.


Well I'll explain it once more. SW infight sub service is just that, and regarding surely flight attendants on UAL, DAL or AA I suspect that in your case you get back what you project. I travel on SW at least one a week and believe there is nothing special about this in flight service when compared to the three airlines you just besmirched. I would take any of them over SW and this is from someone who spent over $14,000 my own money on them in 2016. Wait until SW starts this service as I suspect that every old and surly FA that SWA has will bid to fly it.

On another note, several years ago SW engaged the the services of the ETOPS SME that had been working with Alaska for number of years. Not sure what happened, but they have been back seeking advice from Boeing again within the last few months according to sources within the industry, so things would appear to be picking up once again, be it with the -8 or the 700-800. The -700 is actually a better ETOPS performer than the -800. You need to recall that the mainland to HNL is one of the more demanding 180' ETOPS routes today as you will need to demonstrate a single engine diversion, which is the most benign of the three, plus a single engine and decompression at 10,000'.and lastly a decompression with 2 engines at 10,000. The later two are typically more restrictive.
 
hiflyeras
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:54 pm

Agree that AS service to Hawaii could be affected by a WN entry but I think they'll hold their own, except maybe out of OAK and SMF. AS growth out of Calif markets is only increasing, adding more loyalty among Mileage Plan members. A flight to Hawaii is a lot of miles to be blowing on a program (Rapid Rewards) severely lacking when it comes to redemption opportunities.
 
XRadar98
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:10 pm

DfwAussie wrote:
XRadar98 wrote:
rph99 wrote:
How far inland will the A32l LR be able to fly from Hawaii? LAS! KPHX? KDEN???


And this question belongs in this thread why?


Perhaps because HA will be flying them, and likely with increased frequency, to just about any city WN would offer service from. They didn't order those Airbii to fly to Japan. It's likely they'll be mixed with 332's on the routes with the most pax, and on some cities, change out the 332 with a couple of more 321s. Hows that?


Not good, it is about WN, and they won't have any A321's.
 
swafa
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:35 pm

BravoOne wrote:


On another note, several years ago SW engaged the the services of the ETOPS SME that had been working with Alaska for number of years. Not sure what happened, but they have been back seeking advice from Boeing again within the last few months according to sources within the industry, so things would appear to be picking up once again, be it with the -8 or the 700-800. The -700 is actually a better ETOPS performer than the -800. You need to recall that the mainland to HNL is one of the more demanding 180' ETOPS routes today as you will need to demonstrate a single engine diversion, which is the most benign of the three, plus a single engine and decompression at 10,000'.and lastly a decompression with 2 engines at 10,000. The later two are typically more restrictive.


Thank you for mentioning this point as it seems to be forgotten or unknown to people who only consider an aircraft's published range when talking about etops operations.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:42 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Not sure what happened, but they have been back seeking advice from Boeing again within the last few months according to sources within the industry, so things would appear to be picking up once again, be it with the -8 or the 700-800. The -700 is actually a better ETOPS performer than the -800.


737-700 CASM would get eaten alive by AS 738s, AA 321s, and DL's 199-seat 757s. If WN isn't confident of reliable range with 738s, it's gotta be MAX8s.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:38 pm

Given Southwest's longstanding history of flying from outlying, more minor airports (at least initially), what I'm wondering is if they'll start service to Hawaii from major airports like LAX and SAN, or from lesser airports lacking regular Hawaii service like ONT, SNA, or even (pipe dream) SBD if the economic condition of the Inland Empire improves? I have to believe that there is a market for folks like me who despise the drive to LAX (we'll do it in search of a cheap fare, but we hate it) but who live nearer to a smaller airport. Instead of competing head to head with the big boys on the California-Hawaii routes, perhaps a softer approach flying from underserved airports where Southwest could essentially corner the local market might be an attractive strategy?
 
BravoOne
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:43 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
Not sure what happened, but they have been back seeking advice from Boeing again within the last few months according to sources within the industry, so things would appear to be picking up once again, be it with the -8 or the 700-800. The -700 is actually a better ETOPS performer than the -800.


737-700 CASM would get eaten alive by AS 738s, AA 321s, and DL's 199-seat 757s. If WN isn't confident of reliable range with 738s, it's gotta be MAX8s.


My only point was that the -700 makes for a better ETOPS scenario that the -800. The economics are something else. I'm sure the MAX will work just fine. PS when your talking ETOPS it's not all about range.
 
travaz
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:51 pm

Does anyone think WN would set up inter island operation? I can see tag flights but a full blown inter island operation?
 
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SANFan
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:54 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
Given Southwest's longstanding history of flying from outlying, more minor airports (at least initially), what I'm wondering is if they'll start service to Hawaii from major airports like LAX and SAN, or from lesser airports lacking regular Hawaii service like ONT, SNA, or even (pipe dream) SBD if the economic condition of the Inland Empire improves? I have to believe that there is a market for folks like me who despise the drive to LAX (we'll do it in search of a cheap fare, but we hate it) but who live nearer to a smaller airport. Instead of competing head to head with the big boys on the California-Hawaii routes, perhaps a softer approach flying from underserved airports where Southwest could essentially corner the local market might be an attractive strategy?

It depends on whether WN is interested in O&D traffic or connections from the rest of their route network. Since they're rather late to the party -- even G4 and VX beat WN to the HI markets -- I would think WN would be more interested in connecting their entire network to the Islands. That, to me, would lean toward their large west coast gateways such as LAX, OAK, SAN, and LAS and PHX if the range is possible with the a/c they use. And of course that would still allow WN to get in the O&D traffic from those large cities as well as connecting opportunities from much of WN's network.

bb
 
WPvsMW
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:49 pm

WN will be just another seagull here unless they fully commit as the new AQ.

WN should buy WP and keep the Island Air brand for a while. Trade the Qs for CS100s ( :D ) or SSJ100s( :D :D ) or A400s ( :D :D :D ) ... anything that can take the cycles and hot turns, and "fly on the opposite 30 min.", just like AQ.

I have no affiliation with, or investment in, WP.
 
barney captain
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:20 pm

There's nothing in the pilot's contract that prevents red eyes.

Red eyes are not a requisite for HI operations.

The ETOP's program has recently been resurrected and I would suspect HI will happen within 18 months.

When it does happen, it will not be a secret as the ETOPS certification will be be common knowledge.
Last edited by barney captain on Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
Chemist
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:20 pm

commavia wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
Much like what WN could have had at JFK (NYC) pre-B6...WN is going to be very late to the Hawaii party.


Yep, agreed - I'll believe it when I see it. This is an example of yet another "party" Southwest is late to.


You are correct. The "party" that WN was early to was staying profitable for decades.
 
DfwAussie
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:22 pm

travaz wrote:
Does anyone think WN would set up inter island operation? I can see tag flights but a full blown inter island operation?


No. HA has sufficient traffic to the major cities and the smaller carriers use their props. I was on RT of like 20+ flights HNL-OGG and on both, the 717's were maybe 50% full.
 
Chemist
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:25 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Chemist wrote:
KentB27 wrote:
Honestly a 5 hour + flight on WN to Hawaii seems pretty damn miserable though so I wouldn't even be interested if there was such a service.

.


Honestly I'd rather fly on WN with somewhat decent seat pitch and a generally customer-friendly crew than the tight-pitch US3 and surly flight attendants.


What bunch of crap. Save you BS stories for some other thread.


There is a reason that WN consistently polls with better customer service than the US3. I'm not making that up, nor insulting you or your post. Try staying constructive.
And I believe it was American who recently backed off a plan to "Spirit-ify" their legroom in certain rows. Do all of the US3 have equal legroom to WN in all of their coach rows?
 
commavia
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:31 pm

Chemist wrote:
You are correct. The "party" that WN was early to was staying profitable for decades.


Indeed but, to horribly over-extend this metaphor, Southwest was so happy at its own party that it didn't realize the larger party was moving to another club.

Thus why Southwest is just now introducing technological and market innovations that other airlines have had for, in some cases, literally decades. And thus why Southwest's labor costs are now the highest in the industry and its labor relations among the worst in the company's history, all while, as Gary Kelly himself acknowledged, Southwest has seen its overall cost advantage dramatically deteriorate. And thus why Southwest's profitability is now solidly middle-of-the-pack among its peer group as opposed to consistently leading said group, as in the past.

Trust me - you'll get no argument from me about what an exceptionally innovate, well-run and overall impressive airline Southwest is. It is a company for which I have tremendous respect and admiration. But any sober, objective analysis of Southwest's present strategic position relative to its industry has to conclude that Southwest has missed not one but several critical "parties" over the last 10-15 years and several of those strategic "misses" are now starting to really become glaringly obvious. I have no doubt in my mind that Southwest's smart and capable management team and workforce will figure all this stuff out. But to the point of this thread, Southwest's absence from Hawaii, like its belated - and competitively challenged - first steps into Latin America, underscore how behind Southwest has been in some key areas.
 
Chemist
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:50 pm

commavia wrote:
Chemist wrote:
You are correct. The "party" that WN was early to was staying profitable for decades.


Indeed but, to horribly over-extend this metaphor, Southwest was so happy at its own party that it didn't realize the larger party was moving to another club.

Thus why Southwest is just now introducing technological and market innovations that other airlines have had for, in some cases, literally decades. And thus why Southwest's labor costs are now the highest in the industry and its labor relations among the worst in the company's history, all while, as Gary Kelly himself acknowledged, Southwest has seen its overall cost advantage dramatically deteriorate. And thus why Southwest's profitability is now solidly middle-of-the-pack among its peer group as opposed to consistently leading said group, as in the past.

Trust me - you'll get no argument from me about what an exceptionally innovate, well-run and overall impressive airline Southwest is. It is a company for which I have tremendous respect and admiration. But any sober, objective analysis of Southwest's present strategic position relative to its industry has to conclude that Southwest has missed not one but several critical "parties" over the last 10-15 years and several of those strategic "misses" are now starting to really become glaringly obvious. I have no doubt in my mind that Southwest's smart and capable management team and workforce will figure all this stuff out. But to the point of this thread, Southwest's absence from Hawaii, like its belated - and competitively challenged - first steps into Latin America, underscore how behind Southwest has been in some key areas.


The question is - if WN is late to the Hawaii party, and it is high competition lower margin flyers, then why should they do it at all? Perhaps their best bet is just continuing expansion to the south and forget Hawaii altogether.
 
Judge1310
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:55 pm

barney captain wrote:
There's nothing in the pilot's contract that prevents red eyes.

Red eyes are not a requisite for HI operations.

The ETOP's program has recently been resurrected and I would suspect HI will happen within 18 months.

When it does happen, it will not be a secret as the ETOPS certification will be be common knowledge.



Thank you for your voice of reason in an otherwise maelstrom of opinion, hehe ;-)
 
commavia
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:00 pm

Chemist wrote:
The question is - if WN is late to the Hawaii party, and it is high competition lower margin flyers, then why should they do it at all?


I don't agree with the characterization or presumption that Hawaii is "high competition lower margin flyers." But nonetheless, to be clear, I'm not saying Southwest necessarily should rush to fly to Hawaii. In fact, at this point, given that many of the most obvious and logical Mainland-Hawaii markets for Southwest to enter have been carved up by competitors (particularly Alaska and Hawaiian), I tend to agree that Southwest probably should - at least for the time being - focus elsewhere.

Chemist wrote:
Perhaps their best bet is just continuing expansion to the south and forget Hawaii altogether.


Very well may be. There, too, there are challenges though. Virtually every single plausible U.S. jumping off point and virtually every single plausible market in Latin America from those gateways is already served, in some cases by multiple competitors, including low-fare airlines. Southwest will use the brute force of its scale and still lower-than-network costs to muscle in, but it's not going to be easy. Again - it's the price of being the last one to enter.

To that end, it's actually a pretty intriguing "what if" to consider what the South Florida aviation market would look like today if Southwest had had the ability and motivation to start flying international out of FLL 10-12 years ago, possibly short-circuiting one of the major growth engines over that period for not one but two of the largest low-cost competitors it faces today.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:18 pm

WN is interested but in no rush to fly to Hawaii. Not a big deal.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
hiflyeras
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:46 pm

barney captain wrote:

Red eyes are not a requisite for HI operations.



Flying to Hawaii without redeye service would be a fool's errand. A/C utilization would be crap.
 
77H
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:58 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
barney captain wrote:

Red eyes are not a requisite for HI operations.



Flying to Hawaii without redeye service would be a fool's errand. A/C utilization would be crap.


Plenty of flights operate to and from the mainland everyday as a turn, that are not redeye flights at least to the West Coast which is where WN would be operating from.

77H
Last edited by 77H on Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
barney captain
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:26 pm

77H wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:
barney captain wrote:

Red eyes are not a requisite for HI operations.



Flying to Hawaii without redeye service would be a fool's errand. A/C utilization would be crap.


Plenty of flights operate to and from the mainland everyday as a turn, that are not redeye flights at least to the West Coast which is where WN would be operating from.

77H


Precisely.

AS operates a very successful west coast HI operation without redeyes (there may be one to SEA however) as does a majority of HA's operation. Flights depart @ 9am, spend approximately one hour on the ground, and return around 9pm. A/C utilization is far from crap.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
rbavfan
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:22 am

ADrum23 wrote:
So when exactly do you think we will see WN (Southwest) fly to Hawaii? And how far will the 737 MAX be able to go from the mainland (i.e, would they only be able to fly nonstop from the west coast with the 737 MAX? Or could they go further inland to PHX, LAS, DEN?)


PHX & LAS have to high a heat in the summer. Denver has too high an altitude. All three would have greater restrictions on capacity. WN like their planes full. Can't see tehm sacrificing seats to fly farther inland.
 
rbavfan
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:23 am

BravoOne wrote:
Chemist wrote:
KentB27 wrote:
Honestly a 5 hour + flight on WN to Hawaii seems pretty damn miserable though so I wouldn't even be interested if there was such a service.

.


Honestly I'd rather fly on WN with somewhat decent seat pitch and a generally customer-friendly crew than the tight-pitch US3 and surly flight attendants.


What bunch of crap. Save you BS stories for some other thread.


True that. WN seat pitch is better. Can you imagine AA's new 30" pitch to Hawaii.
 
737tanker
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:28 am

Rdh3e wrote:
737tanker wrote:

The lack of red-eyes has nothing to do with the WN pilot contract.

What is the reason? I appreciate the correction, but let's take it a step further..

To get the reason for lack of WN red-eyes you would have to ask Gary Kelly as that is a management decision. All that I know is that the reason is not the pilots contract as that hurdle was accommodated in the last contract.
 
DfwAussie
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:41 am

737tanker wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
737tanker wrote:

The lack of red-eyes has nothing to do with the WN pilot contract.

What is the reason? I appreciate the correction, but let's take it a step further..

To get the reason for lack of WN red-eyes you would have to ask Gary Kelly as that is a management decision. All that I know is that the reason is not the pilots contract as that hurdle was accommodated in the last contract.


I've never quite understood the lack of red-eyes at WN. However, I don't think there are really all that many markets (currently served) that they need them. Some of the transcon routes, but they seem content RON'ing a boatload of 737s around the country. I still don't think they need to serve HI, but if they do, they don't need red-eyes.
 
rbavfan
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:35 am

SeaDoo wrote:
The Max should be able to make it from the West coast. Supposedly the Max has3500and3800 nmi range. I don't know about the moderate elevation and sometimes extreme heat, but LAS and PHX are, distance wise, well within range.

If the range spec's are correct, maybe DAL is even within range. Perhaps some with more expertise could confirm that.


ETOPS at those ranges would be about 3089nm & 3353nm still air range. That does not take into account WN's 174 seats vs 162 on the 738 & not sure what their 737-7 will seat yet so can't guess. Does not take into account high altitude/heat of Denver or high heat of LAS/PHX. DAL would also be out of range when you add headwinds & extra seats.
 
rbavfan
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:47 am

barney captain wrote:
There's nothing in the pilot's contract that prevents red eyes.

Red eyes are not a requisite for HI operations.

The ETOP's program has recently been resurrected and I would suspect HI will happen within 18 months.

When it does happen, it will not be a secret as the ETOPS certification will be be common knowledge.


It's not the pilot contract. It's the computer systems controlling scheduling that wont be full online till 2018-2019 time frame. Till that is fixed there is a problem to solve.
 
BravoOne
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:23 am

I suspect you git these numbers from GCM? If so they are suspect.
 
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precure787
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:06 am

Chemist wrote:
KentB27 wrote:
Honestly a 5 hour + flight on WN to Hawaii seems pretty damn miserable though so I wouldn't even be interested if there was such a service.

.


Honestly I'd rather fly on WN with somewhat decent seat pitch and a generally customer-friendly crew than the tight-pitch US3 and surly flight attendants.

I would agree. Likewise, having to study WN's business model and customer service friendliness, one social media user made up Southwest's unofficial slogan "We beat the competition. Not you." in the aftermath of the doctor dragged off UA3411. I am one of the people that liked Southwest Airlines, even wanting it to fly to Hawaii sometime.
Edward Zen/Precure 787
 
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KanaHawaii
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:09 am

Another factor that I have brought up before in other discussions of WN coming to Hawaii has been the issue of space at the airport for WN Operations. As some know here, HNL is currently undergoing some renovations and rehabilitation of the terminals and ticket counter areas. One of the larger issues that has come up has been how to move WP and the other small operators to either the interisland terminal or another area while the commuter terminal is demolished and rebuilt as part of the interisland terminal extension that will allow larger plane ops (addressing a want by HA) in that area.

That issue, as far as I know has not been fully addressed yet.

For WN to come into Hawaii, I am sure that they will want to come in with its full operation. That means it will want gate and operation space for everything from below wing vehicles to staff areas and even, possibly, its own maintenance area. I cannot see (and if I am wrong that they do this more often, please be nice and inform me) that they will be happy with just using contract ops for above and below wing servicing, including cargo and ticketing services, like how US Air used HA for their ground ops.

So that means that they need space. With the renovations happening at HNL, and the amount of ops they probably will want to have (not what VA is doing, one or two a day services to one or two cities) I am sure that will also has become a factor in their decision to come here to Hawaii.

Needless to say they won't fly here as a novelty, they will want to fly here to make money. And therefore, it's got to be the right circumstances on both sides - WN's and the Hawaii Airport Authority - to make it work for everyone.
 
irelayer
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:38 am

Judge1310 wrote:
enilria wrote:
Not for a while. Their ops software still doesn't support red eyes. It's queued for replacement, but I haven't heard a date. 2018 or 2019 I suspect. I doubt they would launch Hawaii without red eyes.


Can we please stop with the whole "WN software (etc.) can't support red-eyes..." already? There have been plenty of times where WN indeed operated a flight that would be considered a red-eye due to operational difficulties. The "software" already recognizes arrival times in the next day. This concept has been perpetuated on this site ad infinitum and it's a total fallacy. How do you think that WN was able to operate the former AirTran red-eye flights to meet with the daytime WN flights. BOTH systems had to be able to recognize what was being booked.


I find it hard to believe as well. What kind of shop the size of WN has software that can't recognize that?

By the way, do you have any idea where this came from?

-IR
 
asteriskceo
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:40 am

Also—despite being "satellite wifi," WN's wifi does not operate beyond the contiguous United States. A 6 hour flight with no wifi or TV? No thanks.
 
barney captain
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:24 am

asteriskceo wrote:
Also—despite being "satellite wifi," WN's wifi does not operate beyond the contiguous United States. A 6 hour flight with no wifi or TV? No thanks.


Oh the horror! :eyebrow:

However that's not entirely accurate. The wifi/live TV work most of the way to places like PVR and SJD - I've actually had it work the entire way. I know there were issues going to the Caribbean in spots, but have heard it works as far east as SJU - so it's certainly possible that the satellite placement would allow it to work to HI.

Btw, even when the satellite service stops the wifi and live TV, the pre-recorded TV and movies will still function as those are stored on servers onboard the aircraft.

Additionally, I don't believe AS or HA offer this across the Pacific.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
jpetekyxmd80
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:45 am

The idea that WN would be worse to Hawaii than any of the majors is utter nonsense. At least on comparable equipment from the west coast.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
jplatts
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:52 pm

The range of the Boeing 737 MAX 7 is 4400 miles, and Southwest might have the capability to serve HNL nonstop from DAL, HOU, and MCI with the upcoming Boeing 737 MAX 7 planes.
 
Judge1310
Posts: 354
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:55 pm

Re: WN to Hawaii?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:32 pm

irelayer wrote:
Judge1310 wrote:
enilria wrote:
Not for a while. Their ops software still doesn't support red eyes. It's queued for replacement, but I haven't heard a date. 2018 or 2019 I suspect. I doubt they would launch Hawaii without red eyes.


Can we please stop with the whole "WN software (etc.) can't support red-eyes..." already? There have been plenty of times where WN indeed operated a flight that would be considered a red-eye due to operational difficulties. The "software" already recognizes arrival times in the next day. This concept has been perpetuated on this site ad infinitum and it's a total fallacy. How do you think that WN was able to operate the former AirTran red-eye flights to meet with the daytime WN flights. BOTH systems had to be able to recognize what was being booked.


I find it hard to believe as well. What kind of shop the size of WN has software that can't recognize that?

By the way, do you have any idea where this came from?

-IR


Thank you. I think that this thought stemmed from previous software iterations at WN. They routinely have flights that leave the one day and arrive the next. To a computer program it doesn't matter whether one arrives at 0130 or 0430, they're both +1 from the departure date. For the longest while there were restrictions stipulated in various work group collective bargaining agreements but those have been resolved years ago. The only restriction that I can think of is the fact that WN likes to perform a lot of the MX during the night time in the various MX bases and a change to this strategy would greatly complicate aircraft routing schedules; that being said, however, red-eyes can be and are currently operated, just not as normal operations.
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 4306
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:50 pm

enilria wrote:
Not for a while. Their ops software still doesn't support red eyes..


Tell us more!! :roll:


And even if that were true, its no reason not to fly to Hawaii if they wanted. Very few of Alaska's Hawaii flights are red eyes.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
jplatts
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:13 pm

The range of the Boeing 737 MAX 8 is 4045 miles, and the distance between DEN and HNL is 3356 miles. Southwest could serve HNL nonstop from DEN on 737 MAX planes (even though Southwest might possibly need to add auxiliary fuel tanks to 737 MAX 8 planes that are used for DEN-HNL nonstop flights).
 
TEY1330
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:46 am

Re: WN to Hawaii?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:20 pm

DesertAir wrote:
Last Wednesday I was on a flight from SAN to SMF. At the gate was the thank you wagon with WN agents handing out snacks and gifts. As we were entering the plane Hawaiian music was playing. The WN agent said that last year when the CEO was asked about Hawaii the answer was not so sure; this year when asked the answer was it is a priority.[i][/I].

So some WN aircraft have boarding music?
 
77H
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Re: WN to Hawaii?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:49 pm

jplatts wrote:
The range of the Boeing 737 MAX 8 is 4045 miles, and the distance between DEN and HNL is 3356 miles. Southwest could serve HNL nonstop from DEN on 737 MAX planes (even though Southwest might possibly need to add auxiliary fuel tanks to 737 MAX 8 planes that are used for DEN-HNL nonstop flights).


If I'm not mistaken that range quote is still-air and assuming standard atmospheric conditions (read: not real world conditions). Moreover, I imagine that figure does not account for the higher density configuration WN will use on their 73M8 equipment. DEN is a mile above sea level and in the summer, temperatures often reach above 90 degrees F. I think the MAX8 would get its wings wet before touch down in Hawaii from DEN. I would be surprised if WN could reliably deploy them from LAX or PHX given prevailing conditions at those two stations let alone DEN.

Moreover, I doubt WN would use aux tanks on the MAX planes. WN strives for fleet commonality and the ability to deploy their fleet all across the system. Having a small amount of aircraft with aux tanks for Hawaii flying creates a subfleet that is hauling around aux tanks for no reason if deployed anywhere else.

When WN starts Hawaii, I imagine they will start from their strongest California stations. IF the MAX performs well in real world conditions in their configuration I could see them being deployed from LAS and PHX. WN could also add through flights from points farther east. It is my understanding that many of their flights today operate this way. We could perhaps see routes like MDW-OAK-HNL or DEN-LAX-HNL.

As KanaHawaii brought up, I think one of the biggest hurdles WN will face is gate space at HNL. As mentioned there is a lot of construction happening at HNL currently and it is not uncommon to see aircraft waiting for a gate to open for 10-30 minutes after arrival at current service levels. KOA, OGG and LIH also have limitations. When WN starts Hawaii, I don't imagine them having a token presence like VX with 1-2 flights a day. Their operation will be significant and there is very little space for another large operation.

77H
 
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usxguy
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:28 pm

Re: WN to Hawaii?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:59 am

Kana -

there is no "Hawaii Airport Authority" -- that is a DREAM, my friend.

It is all Hawai'i DOT. bureaucrat after bureaucrat after bureaucrat. Airports are in shambles. No room to expand. HNL is already years behind. And as you mentioned, they don't know where to put WP & MW - so how are they going to find room for WN?
xx
 
travaz
Posts: 862
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: WN to Hawaii?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:27 am

asteriskceo wrote:
Also—despite being "satellite wifi," WN's wifi does not operate beyond the contiguous United States. A 6 hour flight with no wifi or TV? No thanks.


Oh you mean like my flight in March from CLT to PHX on an AA 752.
 
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usxguy
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:28 pm

Re: WN to Hawaii?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:31 am

And if some of you don't remember- WN had full access to ATA's books when they purchased them. Included a codeshare to the islands. If it was *that* lucrative, they would be flying Hawai'i now.
xx
 
Xtremespeed01
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:59 pm

Re: WN to Hawaii?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:49 am

XRadar98 wrote:
KentB27 wrote:
Xtremespeed01 wrote:
For a brief time, AQ did have a direct flight from LAS to HNL.


They most certainly did, because I took that flight in 2005.


Or was it nonstop?



Yup it was a nonstop flight for a while until they returned to tagged flight via OAK, BUR, or SNA. They also had OGG nonstop flights to OAK, SNA, BUR, SMF.
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2116
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: WN to Hawaii?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:59 pm

WN should buy WP, and renegotiate the Q leases for C-series. Feed + TPAC. Instant success, i.e., immediate acceptance by locals and WN's mainland pax.

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