AF Pilots Approve the Creation of LCC Subsidiary Joon

jnev3289 · Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:38 pm

The odd thing is that they don't even seem to indicate this is going to be a LCC... They're using AF pilots, so they're saving very minimal money on staff it seems like

airbuster · Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:27 pm

How many of these conversations are we going to have?:

A "So who are you flying with?"

B "I'm flying with Joon"

A "No I meant which airline but anyway you're going in June I thought you were going in September?"

B "Yeah I'm flying Joon"

A still puzzled at the end.

Amsterdam · Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:56 pm

Well at least they didnt call it Jooly, that would be really bad

OO-VEG · Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:59 pm

Is it only me to notice this looks quite a lot like the Transavia branding. Icons / A few bright colors and a very ugly white/color livery. I wouldn't be surprised if JOON and Transavia are going for the same style and approach (yes I know JOON is supposed to have an AF service level).

I am not over the moon, but let's see what they are going to make of it. Good service, and no pilot strikes may actually give them a good position in the market. And the name, doesn't make a lot of sense to me.. sounds like JOONever know.

Amsterdam · Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:05 pm

OO-VEG wrote:
Good service, and no pilot strikes may actually give them a good position in the market.

Its not low cost, so it cant compete for the lowest prices
Its not ME3 level of service, so it cant compete in that aspect

So what market do they target?
O/D traffic?
Is this basically AF with new cabin crew?
We need to see what the ticket pricing will be.

Polot · Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:10 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
Is this basically AF with new cabin crew?

Sounds like it, with the packaging wrapped up under a different name and branding to make AF crews feel better.

Yflyer · Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:26 am

airzona11 wrote:
A defining characteristic of "Millennials" is not being brand loyal.

From what I read somewhere once, this is exactly why 18-30 year olds are such a key demographic for advertisers. They're not brand loyal, therefore they're more likely to actually give a new product a try rather than just sticking with what they've always used. This is not unique to "millennials", by the way, it's applied to every generation during the time period they would have fallen into that age group.

VirginFlyer · Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:59 am

For me, Joon is a Persian word meaning "dear" or "darling". "Joonam, shall we fly with Joon or Escoot?"
:lol:

As for the while targeted at millennials thing, as a 33 year old it really leaves me cold.

Joon is especially aimed at a young working clientele, the millennials (18 to 35 year-olds), whose lifestyles revolve around digital technology. This new brand has been entirely designed to meet their requirements and aspirations, with an authentic and connected offering that stands out in the world of air transport.

Joon is a lifestyle brand and a state of mind. Short, punchy and international, the name Joon is designed to address a worldwide audience.

The first word that comes to mind is "lame". The next thing that comes to mind is the committee of corporate types so well parodied on The Simpsons.

V/F

leleko747 · Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:04 am

Awful name and awful livery. Mannnn... I thought Iberia's "Level" was bad enough.

edmaircraft · Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:49 am

KarelXWB wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Hmm, will we see a come-back of the old UTA-livery?

Should look like this:

https://twitter.com/TheHusbandInTow/sta ... 5206715392

Sigh...another uninspiring livery.

I'm interested to see where this goes.

ac888yow · Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:20 am

Astonishingly bad name and rationale for the name. I'm offended that people made money, a lot of money probably, coming up with this.

KTPAFlyer · Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:26 am

dfwneedsqf wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Interesting. In US English slang, "boost" is to steal ( http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=boost ). Not sure if this is the angle they're going for, but perhaps they want people to think they're getting such a good price it is a steal?

Maybe Urban Dictionary isn't the best source

"Dude, you wanna boost?"

MrBretz · Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:58 am

I like Boost. It is French. Just add a couple letters and it is Boostie....how appropriate.

hoons90 · Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:48 am

Did they name it after a Korean guy?

Aither · Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:10 am

Polot wrote:
As a millennial myself Joon just comes across as Korean to me. .

Yes, or Chinese (like Loong Air)

Polot wrote:
Might as well just named the company iJoon if they wanted to continue "old man out of touch with youth trying to be cool" theme.

My feeling as well. I fear many of these spin off airlines have been advised by consultants in communication rather than being based on purely business and economic sense. For example one of the first long haul route is expected to be to Haneda. What is the point of adding more costs with another flight rather than increasing the size of the current flight ? it's more staff, more ground staff, another slot, more fleet complexity, more maintenance, more marketing costs etc. etc.

OO-VEG · Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:16 am

Perhaps we need to consider JOON in a more French like pronounciation, which could resemble JEUNE, which means YOUNG.

According to a French paper, it has to Resemble JUNE though (as a statement that millenials don't fly during the busy summer months), they choose they type it with 2 O's to resemble... gOOgle and yahOO

MaverickM11 · Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:41 am

Why can't we have a separate thread re: Joon? It's a totally different topic from the pilot agreement for "Boost".

OA940 · Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:14 am

Boost would be a better name, but Joon screams LCC to me. This airline actually has potential, but I hope they don't use that crappy livery that a 12 year-old can make on MSPaint

airbuster · Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:16 am

There are some changes that were negotiated between SNPL union and AF about the distribution of work between AF and KL pilots. NO ONE at KLM, be it management or unions was part of these negotiations. As it has everything to do with them expect this to be the tip of the iceberg.

Aesma · Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:58 am

32andBelow wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Interesting. In US English slang, "boost" is to steal ( http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=boost ). Not sure if this is the angle they're going for, but perhaps they want people to think they're getting such a good price it is a steal?

Wrong, fake news, alternative facts. I've never heard it used this way.

I've heard of boosting cars. In US TV series/movies probably, as I never set foot in the country.

CaliguyNYC · Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:33 am

So if its just low operating cost rather than low fare, why have a separate name? If they don't give Skyteam benefits, miles and a proper business class seat, aren't even less people going to fly them then currently to what ever routes this will be on. And what ever they say people will think its like Norwegian. Also it's frustrating that as AF/KL convert more routes to transavia you can't always fly from the US to say JMK or other euro beach destinations on one Skyteam ticket. I can deal with no free food, little leg room, but I want one ticket, free seat select and priority boarding (when on a transatlantic ticket).

SomebodyInTLS · Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:57 am

LXwing wrote:
Wow, such a creative livery!
As for the name Joon, some of the possible meanings are hottie, gay asian man, and others. Check it out on http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=joon
I would rather prefer something like Joke or Kjoon...

Yep - that's the Urban Dictionary we know and "love"...

JeremyB · Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:58 am

edmaircraft wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Hmm, will we see a come-back of the old UTA-livery?

Should look like this:

https://twitter.com/TheHusbandInTow/sta ... 5206715392

Sigh...another uninspiring livery.

I'm interested to see where this goes.

So they had a long time to come up with a name and a livery and this is it... :roll:

Aesma · Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:59 am

N14AZ wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
No idea how to pronounce it. Here's the press release, in French:

http://corporate.airfrance.com//fr/actu ... uvrez-joon

Thanks, they also have a buttom to switch to English. From that link:

Joon is especially aimed at a young working clientele, the millennials (18 to 35 year-olds), whose lifestyles revolve around digital technology. This new brand has been entirely designed to meet their requirements and aspirations, with an authentic and connected offering that stands out in the world of air transport.

Joon is a lifestyle brand and a state of mind. Short, punchy and international, the name Joon is designed to address a worldwide audience.

Maybe the word JOON comes from jeunne (young) and connect...

Wants to appeal to millennials.

Puts two "O" in the name, something that was all the rage when those same millennials were barely born !

djxxa · Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:14 pm

Boost, Joon, both don't really sound attractive. Yes a simple one syllable word, i hope they have fun marketing it..
If you want to participate in an international community, don't get so hung up on US english.

Irehdna · Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:54 pm

They should have made it a low-cost brand, not a full-service leisure spin-off IMO.

Keith2004 · Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:43 pm

This looks like a failure out the gate

As a millennial I feel like no millenials were on the team that came up with this.

TATL market is:

LLC - WOW, Norwegian, Level (fastest growing sector)
Middle market- Iceland air, la compagne

Legacy- US3, IAG, Airfrance/Klm etc.

Where the hell is JOON in all this...waste of money, most millennials will go to Google and find LCC or a good sale from legacy or middle of the road. Few millenials who are Loyalist will stay with their legacy carriers

s.p.a.s. · Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:12 pm

Joon... Loon .. Loo ...

Case closed

ro1960 · Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:51 pm

VirginFlyer wrote:
For me, Joon is a Persian word meaning "dear" or "darling". "Joonam, shall we fly with Joon or Escoot?"

Apparently there is a Persian dating app called "Joon". Plus a couple of other brands but in different markets. Article in French here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.fr/2017/07/20/joon-air-france-nest-vraiment-pas-le-premier-a-choisir-cette-m_a_23039224/

ro1960 · Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:59 pm

OO-VEG wrote:
Perhaps we need to consider JOON in a more French like pronunciation, which could resemble JEUNE, which means YOUNG.

The trendy way to say "jeune" in French is "Djeun". Basically giving the initial "J" the same sound as in English. But it doesn't sound like "Joon". I don't think there is any relation, though.

by738 · Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:40 pm

Joon of arc
Terry and Joon
Joon Collins
Sand Joons
Flaming Joon

aldrigsomandre · Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:15 am

How are they going to compete with ME3 and European LLC's if this is not a low cost initiative? I don't understand. They are simply relaunching Air France aimed at millenials?

2Holer4Longhaul · Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:45 pm

This is probably the dumbest idea I've seen come out of anywhere, and that includes Baltia.
AF management claims that it will reduce costs by appealing to millennials. They think that an experience-based product and a really stupid name are going to do that.
That, to me, seems like the model that VX tried and failed with. Millennials are more price-concsious than anything else, which means ideas like LEVEL (IAG's Low Fare product) and actual LCCs are bound to work, while Joon just drags AF down.

coolian2 · Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:20 pm

airzona11 wrote:
A defining characteristic of "Millennials" is not being brand loyal. They will google

Hehehe.

airbuster · Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:17 pm

It's not going to work because AF and the French union SNPL made new rules on the division of flying between AF and KLM, the only thing they forgot is to include the KLM part in those négociations leading to that new division. There are a set of rules on how the flying is divided between the 2 airlines, these rules date from the beginning of the merger and it is to be expected they are aheard to by both parties. Now AF added a new rule stating that for every 1 widebody added to the KL fleet AF must then add 2. If not AF pilots get compensated in money and extra time off. Once again this is a rule set by the AF side whilst obviously also having far fetched implications for KL.

In other words this means that not only are the rules being changed by AF one sidedly, it also means if better performing KL wants to grow because of successfully implemented cost reduction programs on their side AF has to grow too. Even if it means adding aircraft that are not needed and if this is not done pilots get more time off and money at AF. In both cases a very unhealthy situation.

This will bring more tension to the relationship between AF and KLM.

goldorak · Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:24 am

Aither wrote:
Polot wrote:
For example one of the first long haul route is expected to be to Haneda. What is the point of adding more costs with another flight rather than increasing the size of the current flight ?

There is absolutely 0 chance that HND will be a Joon destination.

JannEejit · Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:43 am

by738 wrote:
Joon of arc
Terry and Joon
Joon Collins
Sand Joons
Flaming Joon

Maybe they could rebrand Hop as 'Thierry' and we could all enjoy travelling with Thierry and Joon !

Dutchy · Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:52 am

airbuster wrote:
It's not going to work because AF and the French union SNPL made new rules on the division of flying between AF and KLM, the only thing they forgot is to include the KLM part in those négociations leading to that new division. There are a set of rules on how the flying is divided between the 2 airlines, these rules date from the beginning of the merger and it is to be expected they are aheard to by both parties. Now AF added a new rule stating that for every 1 widebody added to the KL fleet AF must then add 2. If not AF pilots get compensated in money and extra time off. Once again this is a rule set by the AF side whilst obviously also having far fetched implications for KL.

In other words this means that not only are the rules being changed by AF one sidedly, it also means if better performing KL wants to grow because of successfully implemented cost reduction programs on their side AF has to grow too. Even if it means adding aircraft that are not needed and if this is not done pilots get more time off and money at AF. In both cases a very unhealthy situation.

This will bring more tension to the relationship between AF and KLM.

Indeed, untenable situation. How can this agreement have been made without KLM-personnel? Without consulting KLM. They should just fire all SNPL union members. They are set on killing Air France apparently. No connection between profitability and pay or growth.

mercure1 · Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:16 pm

AF have updated fleet plans for Joon. Per recent staff notice

W17 - 6 x A321
S18 - 11 x A321 + 4 A340
W18 - 4 x A320 + 11 A321 + 4 A340
S19 - 6 x A320 + 12 A321 + 4 A340
W19 - 6 x A320 + 11 A321 + 4 A340 + 3 A350
S20 - 6 x A320 + 12 A321 + 4 A340 + 5 A350
W20 - 6 x A320 + 11 A321 + 3 A340 + 7 A350
S21 - 6 x A320 + 12 A321 + 10 A350

anstar · Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:35 pm

So their strategy in France is
AF - Full service short / mid / long haul
Hop! - Regional Airline
Transavia - Low Cost short / Mid haul
Joon - Full Service Short / Mid / Long but for melennial customers?

Seems like a lot of brands with some duplications... interesting strategy but not one that I think will be successful - but time will tell.

mercure1 · Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:42 am

Well its seems the pilots are not very excited about Joon.

The SPAF union has urged French Ministry of Transport to intervene in the establishment of Joon brand which robs any symbol or affiliation with Air France or French nation. Union highlights the poor media reception to choice of name of branding of Joon, suggesting something instead like Air France Soleil (Sun) while retaining well know image of France using colors of red, blue and white.

SomebodyInTLS · Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:01 am

mercure1 wrote:
Well its seems the pilots are not very excited about Joon.

The SPAF union has urged French Ministry of Transport to intervene in the establishment of Joon brand which robs any symbol or affiliation with Air France or French nation. Union highlights the poor media reception to choice of name of branding of Joon, suggesting something instead like Air France Soleil (Sun) while retaining well know image of France using colors of red, blue and white.

Oh sheesh... while I think Joon is a colossal waste of time, there's no need to go all nationalist on the issue!

AirInterCRV · Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:50 am

I wouldn't pay too much attention to what is essentially noise rather than substance. There were similar rants a few months ago in France when national railways operator SNCF re-branded its TGV high speed service.
I think AF is actually considering the association of the brand to France and to its symbols (national colors in particular) as a very valuable asset ("France is in the air", etc.).

lesfalls · Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:32 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Well its seems the pilots are not very excited about Joon.

The SPAF union has urged French Ministry of Transport to intervene in the establishment of Joon brand which robs any symbol or affiliation with Air France or French nation. Union highlights the poor media reception to choice of name of branding of Joon, suggesting something instead like Air France Soleil (Sun) while retaining well know image of France using colors of red, blue and white.

Oh sheesh... while I think Joon is a colossal waste of time, there's no need to go all nationalist on the issue!

Um it's france. What is there to expect. It is "Le grand nacion "

SomebodyInTLS · Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:49 pm

lesfalls wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Well its seems the pilots are not very excited about Joon.

The SPAF union has urged French Ministry of Transport to intervene in the establishment of Joon brand which robs any symbol or affiliation with Air France or French nation. Union highlights the poor media reception to choice of name of branding of Joon, suggesting something instead like Air France Soleil (Sun) while retaining well know image of France using colors of red, blue and white.

Oh sheesh... while I think Joon is a colossal waste of time, there's no need to go all nationalist on the issue!

Um it's france. What is there to expect. It is "Le grand nacion "

They speak spanish there?! :eyebrow:

FlyRow · Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:53 pm

Moved

The french pilot union SPAFdoens't agree with the name of JOON... while every a.netter agrees, they have found a more interesting reason.....

"It doens't sound french"...

The other problem is that the french tricolour isn't represented in the paint scheme of the airline...and french pride has to be represented in this new airline according to the pilot union. I understand the use/find unions usefull in some situations, but if a union has to worry about this they really have nothing better to do.

I think a new Air France strike should be announced, this name can't stand... *sigh*

Source (in Dutch) :
https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... chter-joon

2Holer4Longhaul · Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:33 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Well its seems the pilots are not very excited about Joon.

The SPAF union has urged French Ministry of Transport to intervene in the establishment of Joon brand which robs any symbol or affiliation with Air France or French nation. Union highlights the poor media reception to choice of name of branding of Joon, suggesting something instead like Air France Soleil (Sun) while retaining well know image of France using colors of red, blue and white.

Oh sheesh... while I think Joon is a colossal waste of time, there's no need to go all nationalist on the issue!

The pilots don't want to fly under a stupid name like Joon, and why would they?
Joon (n): An ill-conceived and ill-advised business venture whose existence stems entirely from the senility of a corporation's executives and consultants.

Although millennials (and most passengers, really) are just going to go for the cheapest tickets, a brand with elements of French culture is much more appealing than a nonce word and a fancy shade of blue.

MesabaF27 · Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:57 am

Can someone think of a good airline name these days? I mean really, "Boost" ?? That's as bad as TUIfly, WOW air, and Scoot ...

mercure1 · Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:55 pm

AF has set up event on September 25th where Joon will reveal more details about its launch and likely details about first routes.

LAXintl · Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:50 pm

Lets see what they announce as first routes.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKVh_7dWkAEm_He.jpg

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