Aither
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Re: AF/KL Managers Have No Confidence In Future Of Cooperation

Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:59 am

Amsterdam wrote:
Let me tell the essence:
These problems only exist because the French side doesn't want to work significantly harder for the same pay.
That's it.


I think there are a lot of preconceived ideas. Studies from the OECD show the opposite : more working hours for the french and more productivity per hour. I could find the Time magazine where I read that : http://time.com/4621185/worker-productivity-countries/

Even though we can criticize the methodology I think it's always tricky to compare between different countries and their regulations. There are officials working hours, holidays etc. and the real practices. Countries like Germany people would strictly stick to the regulations while in more latin countries you would see more people working overtime when needed. Also the working life is different : in the US it seems people have a life at work (buying things on Internet, having fun with the colleagues etc. during the working hours) - while in other places you would really work at work, in particular if you know in the evening you will have sufficient time to do your personal things and meet friends.
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Jetty
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Re: AF/KL Managers Have No Confidence In Future Of Cooperation

Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:27 am

Waterbomber wrote:
KL is one of the worst legacy carriers in the world in terms of on-time performance

Image
Sure, methodology does matter and you could come up with another legitimate ranking where KL isn't #1. But saying that KL is one of the worst is without any factual basis. Or can you provide me with any research that corroborates this?
 
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ro1960
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Re: AF/KL Managers Have No Confidence In Future Of Cooperation

Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:23 am

Jetty wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
KL is one of the worst legacy carriers in the world in terms of on-time performance

Image
Sure, methodology does matter and you could come up with another legitimate ranking where KL isn't #1. But saying that KL is one of the worst is without any factual basis. Or can you provide me with any research that corroborates this?


Thanks for bringing some factual info to this debate.
Like I said in a previous voluntarily sarcastic post, people in general and many on here turn their own experiences and beliefs into truths. Maybe Watercomber experienced one delay with KL and concluded that it has the worst on-time performance.
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keesje
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Re: AF/KL Managers Have No Confidence In Future Of Cooperation

Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:45 am

I think one of the 2 companies has been profitable over the last 25 years. They adjusted, outsourced, invested smartly and cut costs when neccesary. Leading to a big efficient airline with a relative small home market. Looking at the profit of the combined airlines over the last 10 years, they were created on one side, with the other side promising improvement and meanwhile trying to gain control. The other side is getting tired.
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JeremyB
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Re: AF/KL Managers Have No Confidence In Future Of Cooperation

Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:16 am

keesje wrote:
I think one of the 2 companies has been profitable over the last 25 years. They adjusted, outsourced, invested smartly and cut costs when neccesary. Leading to a big efficient airline with a relative small home market. Looking at the profit of the combined airlines over the last 10 years, they were created on one side, with the other side promising improvement and meanwhile trying to gain control. The other side is getting tired.


I agree completely with you Keesje. Even though the reorganization at KLM wasn't met with enthusiastic comments from the workforce they still did what they had to do. That is why KLM is moving forward and making big profits again while the guys at Air France have to think years about a way to save money. If the guys at Air France really care so much about the AF-KL Group they would have done what is necessary for the Group years ago, increased growth at Transavia, agreeing with Boost when the plan was first offered etc.
 
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Re: AF/KL Managers Have No Confidence In Future Of Cooperation

Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:30 am

Waterbomber wrote:
obelau24 wrote:
Ugh KLM and Air France are like night and day. It's such a pleasure to fly with KLM and with Air France it's a roll of the dice - more bad experiences than good. Not to mention AMS is a breeze compared to CDG and its plethora of terminals, rude ground staff and ATROCIOUS lounges. If I never fly AF again it will be too soon, which is a shame because I love France.


KL is one of the worst legacy carriers in the world in terms of on-time performance, on-board service, and hard product and so are their lounges, AMS as a noisy and exagerated duty-free hub.
AF isn't much but recently they have improved their lounge's services (yes the one in 2E), CDG is rather quiet and doesn't force you into looking at duty-free.

So overall, from a customer perspective, AF is the better airline.
In terms of efficiency as a business, KL scores better, but it's at the expense of their staff and the passengers.

The Netherlands have changed a lot in the past 2 decades. The culture has become excessively frugal and materialistic in daily life. They try to apply that to business which looks good on paper but it fails most of the time because they come over as arrogant or greedy. A quick look at Eindhoven Airport's destroyed parking building and you can see how this culture of cheapness is failing.
I've also worked under Dutch managers. They look presentable but they're incompetent at best. Also, they tend to purchase goods and services from suppliers in their home country despite having cheaper local options. What is that about?

Between AF and KLM, I think that KLM is the risky side of the business. Amsterdam is no Paris and the Netherlands is no France.
KLM is excessively relying on connecting traffic to fill their flights and any new competition is a serious threat.


I'm sorry Waterbomber but most of your remarks are not based on the truth. Yes Schiphol has been somewhat noisier in the past years then before, that is because the complete airport is getting an overhaul, the terminals at least. And the KL lounge is also being renovated. And if you don't want to go shopping just walk to the gate I don't see the issue.

The parking lot at Eindhoven was an accident it can happen everywhere, it's not because we are cheap or greedy that is just ridiculous.

It's true that KLM used to be all about connecting traffic, but you should take a look at the data that KLM publishes every year. The biggest part of the people passing through Schiphol and the same for KLM is O/D traffic.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: AF/KL Managers Have No Confidence In Future Of Cooperation

Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:49 am

winginit wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
Jetty wrote:
KL management about AF
"Many people still retire at their sixties. The 35-hour working week."

Nothing wrong with that.


As an American this one confused me a bit. Were KL management implying that it was a good thing or bad thing that the AF employees retire in their 60s? Versus their 50s? And aren't both the Dutch and French in a similar boat when it comes to a standard sub-40 hour work week?


Like the rest of Northern Europe, Dutch retirement age is pushing up - currently 67 I believe. Also most of Europe is still based on a 40 hour week (although that may include a half hour lunch break).
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: AF/KL Managers Have No Confidence In Future Of Cooperation

Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:56 am

Waterbomber wrote:
The [Dutch] culture has become excessively frugal and materialistic in daily life. They try to apply that to business which looks good on paper but it fails most of the time because they come over as arrogant or greedy. [...] They look presentable but they're incompetent at best. Also, they tend to purchase goods and services from suppliers in their home country despite having cheaper local options. What is that about?


The Dutch used to think of themselves as extremely down to Earth, sensible and tolerant people - they still do, really. But in my considerable experience (I lived there for many years) they are actually arrogant and self-centred. They always think they know best and have no shame in shouting their opinion over everyone else. The (unconscious?) nationalism you mention also surprised me at first - but having lived in several places now I'm sorry to say that petty tribalism is a common trait everywhere.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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Revelation
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Re: AF/KL Managers Have No Confidence In Future Of Cooperation

Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:02 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
The big north american mergers are a false comparison to AF and KL for too obvious reasons.


True, but I will point out that I've seen a similar clash of perceived work ethic in the US along north/south borders: northerners felt they were more industrious and hard working, southerners felt the northerners were too uptight and wasted a lot of energy. Who knows which was right?
aemoreira1981 wrote:
In a merger, one culture has to predominate for the merged entity to function. Here, I will say it hais the KLM culture has to win out here. That is not unlike what happened with the DL/NW merger...the DL culture won out as all of the non pilot unions were d certified to keep DL mostly nonunion. The merger would have failed had the NW culture dominated.

The union thing was a factor, but IMHO the main difference was that ATL was/is a gold mine and gave DL a stronger hand in the merger. If DL had the culture and the work rules but not the money I think things would look pretty different and probably not as successful. The DL/NW merger really has set the standard.
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Re: AF/KL Managers Have No Confidence In Future Of Cooperation

Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:53 pm

 
Amsterdam
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Re: AF/KL Managers Have No Confidence In Future Of Cooperation

Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:00 pm

Waterbomber wrote:

KL is one of the worst legacy carriers in the world in terms of on-time performance

They try to apply that to business which looks good on paper but it fails most of the time because they come over as arrogant or greedy.

I've also worked under Dutch managers. They look presentable but they're incompetent at best.


Slow your roll buddy.

1. Don't lie. Your first statement is factually wrong

2. You are calling a whole nation arrogant and greedy? Come to Amsterdam and say it to my face my friend

3. KLM is going to make it to it's 100th birthday. Incompetence won't get you that far, certainly not if you're from such a small nation.
 
Amsterdam
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Re: AF/KL Managers Have No Confidence In Future Of Cooperation

Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:07 pm

Anyway,

KLM is doing it's thing and going ok now, so why keep messing things up and wanting more French control? Why? Just let them do the thing they are doing.

It's like a marriage where the husband is going to the gym and training and getting fit, but the wife urges him to dont go to the gym anymore and stay on the couch with her and order pizza.

(The latter sounds actually quite good though, pizza+couch=win :-D)
 
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N717TW
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Re: AF/KL Managers Have No Confidence In Future Of Cooperation

Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:38 pm

seahawk wrote:
If you merge you need to really merge. One management, one organisation and in the end one brand. Everything should be AF today and it should be run from Paris.


Not sure about the Paris part but I completely agree with this otherwise. These two airlines have never really merged even through they have more or less identical missions as full service carriers (unlike, for example, one being a LCC). I sorta get the different national brands but otherwise things should be identical and the back-office should be the same. in the US, all the check-in should be managed by DL. I don't understand why KL does but AF doesn't. Similar situations occur elsewhere where AF staff is distinct from KL staff at the ground. That part should be fully integrated with single uniforms for on-the-ground staff; single levels of service; etc.



P.S. I like KLM but AF's inflight service is much better on the average. Having done many a long-haul on both, I'd take the AF catering over KLM everyday and twice on Sunday. Not sure what flights those of you who are flying KL and AF are getting but I don't see what you see.
 
Amsterdam
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Re: AF/KL Managers Have No Confidence In Future Of Cooperation

Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:07 pm

"I like KLM but AF's inflight service is much better on the average. Having done many a long-haul on both, I'd take the AF catering over KLM everyday and twice on Sunday."

Of course KLM can deliver the exact same catering as AF if they would want to, but I suspect that will raise the cost of the catering.
Norwegian can also serve that catering AF does. Any airline can.

The revenue of AF is around 16 billion euro right?
So 16 billion comes in and almost 16 billion goes out. Think about that. The money is there, but they cannot hold on to it.

But also KLMs profit margin is still too low. KLM still needs to get a lot leaner and lower its costs further; making profit in an industry upturn is not the art, but making a profit during a downturn thats what you want. And winter is coming for AF. The competition has just started.
 
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Re: AF/KL Managers Have No Confidence In Future Of Cooperation

Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:13 pm

AF managers about KL

"An underlying idea [of the Dutch] is that we are a little like Arabs: not to be completely trusted, work bad, are filthy. And that was really confirmed by all [French] colleagues. Talk loudly, say anything that comes to mind and take two hours to eat while the Dutch are finished in 20 minutes."

"Dutch people say: 'they are lazy at Air France, always on strike, complaining, expensive'."


Dutch people complain about a lot of things too. And they are really good at it.

I'm actually shocked by these comments. People in Spain take a siesta after lunch because it's too hot around noon. That doesn't mean they are lazy. It's called tradition. If the French people take two hours to eat, who are we to criticize their traditions?

If the French and Dutch cannot work together, perhaps it's time to split. But at least have some standards and show some respect to each other's traditions. Let's keep it business/professional and not make it personal.

:twocents:
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