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AAlaxfan
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:58 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
william wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
My point is I think AS is making a mistake sticking to solely Boeing.


What about SWA?


Southwest is a totally different airline with a different product. Southwest also doesn't have the nonsense of a regional product.

I don't understand your point. How can you say Southwest has a different product? A 737 is a 737. It's internal configuration doesn't matter. Southwest and Ryanair are 737 only operators and have seen no need, or have any desire, to fly an Airbus plane at this time. If you're saying Alaska needs Airbus you should extend your reasoning to all the other 737 only operators.

Again, please explain why AS needs Airbus and WN doesn't?
Grumpy. Not a dwarf, not an attitude. It's a lifestyle.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:26 pm

AAlaxfan wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
william wrote:

What about SWA?


Southwest is a totally different airline with a different product. Southwest also doesn't have the nonsense of a regional product.

I don't understand your point. How can you say Southwest has a different product? A 737 is a 737. It's internal configuration doesn't matter. Southwest and Ryanair are 737 only operators and have seen no need, or have any desire, to fly an Airbus plane at this time. If you're saying Alaska needs Airbus you should extend your reasoning to all the other 737 only operators.

Again, please explain why AS needs Airbus and WN doesn't?


It's bizarre. I can't follow the logic either but it might be because logic is lacking.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:32 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
AAlaxfan wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:

Southwest is a totally different airline with a different product. Southwest also doesn't have the nonsense of a regional product.

I don't understand your point. How can you say Southwest has a different product? A 737 is a 737. It's internal configuration doesn't matter. Southwest and Ryanair are 737 only operators and have seen no need, or have any desire, to fly an Airbus plane at this time. If you're saying Alaska needs Airbus you should extend your reasoning to all the other 737 only operators.

Again, please explain why AS needs Airbus and WN doesn't?


It's bizarre. I can't follow the logic either but it might be because logic is lacking.


Southwest has an all 737 fleet because it works for them. They aren't arrogant about it nor do they trash a competitor's airplane just because it isn't a Boeing.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
bigb
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:23 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
AAlaxfan wrote:
I don't understand your point. How can you say Southwest has a different product? A 737 is a 737. It's internal configuration doesn't matter. Southwest and Ryanair are 737 only operators and have seen no need, or have any desire, to fly an Airbus plane at this time. If you're saying Alaska needs Airbus you should extend your reasoning to all the other 737 only operators.

Again, please explain why AS needs Airbus and WN doesn't?


It's bizarre. I can't follow the logic either but it might be because logic is lacking.


Southwest has an all 737 fleet because it works for them. They aren't arrogant about it nor do they trash a competitor's airplane just because it isn't a Boeing.


And it didn't work for Alaska previously?
 
bigb
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:24 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
AAlaxfan wrote:
I don't understand your point. How can you say Southwest has a different product? A 737 is a 737. It's internal configuration doesn't matter. Southwest and Ryanair are 737 only operators and have seen no need, or have any desire, to fly an Airbus plane at this time. If you're saying Alaska needs Airbus you should extend your reasoning to all the other 737 only operators.

Again, please explain why AS needs Airbus and WN doesn't?


It's bizarre. I can't follow the logic either but it might be because logic is lacking.


Southwest has an all 737 fleet because it works for them. They aren't arrogant about it nor do they trash a competitor's airplane just because it isn't a Boeing.


And it didn't work for Alaska previously?
 
bob75013
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:26 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
AAlaxfan wrote:
I don't understand your point. How can you say Southwest has a different product? A 737 is a 737. It's internal configuration doesn't matter. Southwest and Ryanair are 737 only operators and have seen no need, or have any desire, to fly an Airbus plane at this time. If you're saying Alaska needs Airbus you should extend your reasoning to all the other 737 only operators.

Again, please explain why AS needs Airbus and WN doesn't?


It's bizarre. I can't follow the logic either but it might be because logic is lacking.


Southwest has an all 737 fleet because it works for them. They aren't arrogant about it nor do they trash a competitor's airplane just because it isn't a Boeing.


PlanesNTrains said it best earlier in the thread "It's bizarre. I can't follow the logic either but it might be because logic is lacking.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:27 pm

bigb wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

It's bizarre. I can't follow the logic either but it might be because logic is lacking.


Southwest has an all 737 fleet because it works for them. They aren't arrogant about it nor do they trash a competitor's airplane just because it isn't a Boeing.


And it didn't work for Alaska previously?


Yes, it certainly has. However, the Alaska of yesterday isn't the Alaska of today. They have to realize that with the VX acquisition comes some changes/consequences.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
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ElroyJetson
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News Report Says AS Likely to Make Announcement About an All Boeing Fleet in the 4th Quarter

Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:00 pm

A news report today suggests AS will make an announcement about going to an all Boeing fleet in the 4 Quarter of this year. In addition, AS is supposed to announce the acquisition of additional 737-Max jets at this time.....specifically focusing on the 737-10 Max.


A Key Quote from the Story:


"Alaska Air has said it will announce a decision on its long-term fleet strategy by the end of 2017. At the company's investor day back in March, management described the key factors that could impact this decision.

On one hand, keeping an Airbus subfleet would cost about $20 million to $25 million annually, according to company estimates, mainly because of lower pilot productivity and higher overhead costs. On the other hand, Alaska Air might be able to negotiate lower aircraft purchase prices by forcing Airbus and Boeing to compete for each and every sale.

Whatever the ultimate decision, Alaska has indicated that the Airbus fleet will remain for many years to come. The vast majority of Virgin America's fleet is leased, with most of those leases set to expire between 2021 and 2024. It would be prohibitively expensive to terminate those leases early.

Alaska Air is leaning toward retiring Virgin America's fleet and becoming an all-Boeing carrier again, according to CEO Brad Tilden's comments at a business breakfast in Seattle last week. Tilden acknowledged that Alaska still had some work to do on the mechanics of replacing a significant proportion of its fleet, but said that the Airbus planes probably wouldn't be around forever."


https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/07/ ... ng-ag.aspx
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jbs2886
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Re: News Report Says AS Likely to Make Announcement About an All Boeing Fleet in the 4th Quarter

Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:03 pm

This is merely a repackaging of the article that caused so much ruckus last week. Further, it is the author's speculation on the MAX 10.

Nothing to see here.
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: News Report Says AS Likely to Make Announcement About an All Boeing Fleet in the 4th Quarter

Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:09 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
This is merely a repackaging of the article that caused so much ruckus last week. Further, it is the author's speculation on the MAX 10.

Nothing to see here.



I disagree. The fact a decision is coming this year and the costs associated with AS maintaining an Airbus fleet appear to be new facts that go beyond the statements made by the AS CEO last week.

It appears fleet commonality is an important issue for AS, but you never know....maybe Airbus can make them an offer they can't refuse. :smile:
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jbs2886
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Re: News Report Says AS Likely to Make Announcement About an All Boeing Fleet in the 4th Quarter

Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:13 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
This is merely a repackaging of the article that caused so much ruckus last week. Further, it is the author's speculation on the MAX 10.

Nothing to see here.



I disagree. The fact a decision is coming this year and the costs associated with AS maintaining an Airbus fleet appear to be new facts that go beyond the statements made by the AS CEO last week.

It appears fleet commonality is an important issue for AS, but you never know....maybe Airbus can make them an offer they can't refuse. :smile:


Those were facts we have known for quite some time. Motley Fool is not a "news" site, its an opinion site where they aggregate some news.
 
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AAlaxfan
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:41 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
bigb wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:

Southwest has an all 737 fleet because it works for them. They aren't arrogant about it nor do they trash a competitor's airplane just because it isn't a Boeing.


And it didn't work for Alaska previously?


Yes, it certainly has. However, the Alaska of yesterday isn't the Alaska of today. They have to realize that with the VX acquisition comes some changes/consequences.


The Alaska of yesterday is still the Alaska of today. I'm pretty sure that during the entire process of acquiring VX that AS was looking at the changes/consequences. The fleet planning is not something that just came up. The decision to keep or remove the A320's was probably not made at fleet planning meeting just before the breakfast. It is something AS has looked at the entire time since they started the acquisition. Hell, they've probably looked at each Airbus model as it was introduced to see if it was a viable option. To not do so would be irresponsible. To say they are blindly all Boeing is ridiculous. To say that the must keep the A320's now because VX has them is just stupid.

AS has done their homework. They may take the aircraft on order because financially it would cost them too much to cancel. They will remove the A320's as it becomes economically viable

Alaska has determined that an all Boeing fleet is what works for them. Just like Southwest, Ryanair and others.
Grumpy. Not a dwarf, not an attitude. It's a lifestyle.
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:45 pm

AAlaxfan wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
bigb wrote:

And it didn't work for Alaska previously?


Yes, it certainly has. However, the Alaska of yesterday isn't the Alaska of today. They have to realize that with the VX acquisition comes some changes/consequences.


The Alaska of yesterday is still the Alaska of today. I'm pretty sure that during the entire process of acquiring VX that AS was looking at the changes/consequences. The fleet planning is not something that just came up. The decision to keep or remove the A320's was probably not made at fleet planning meeting just before the breakfast. It is something AS has looked at the entire time since they started the acquisition. Hell, they've probably looked at each Airbus model as it was introduced to see if it was a viable option. To not do so would be irresponsible. To say they are blindly all Boeing is ridiculous. To say that the must keep the A320's now because VX has them is just stupid.

AS has done their homework. They may take the aircraft on order because financially it would cost them too much to cancel. They will remove the A320's as it becomes economically viable

Alaska has determined that an all Boeing fleet is what works for them. Just like Southwest, Ryanair and others.






That is certainly the way it appears. Fleet commonality certainly has worked for WN and Ryanair among others. It looks like this is the direction AS wants to move in.
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ikolkyo
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:57 pm

It's crazy how emotionally invested some people get over an airline operating an airplane.
 
tjh8402
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:20 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
bigb wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:

Southwest has an all 737 fleet because it works for them. They aren't arrogant about it nor do they trash a competitor's airplane just because it isn't a Boeing.


And it didn't work for Alaska previously?


Yes, it certainly has. However, the Alaska of yesterday isn't the Alaska of today. They have to realize that with the VX acquisition comes some changes/consequences.


Comes with changes and consequences? You sound like a parent teaching tough life lessons to a child and saying they have no choice but to permanently operate a mixed fleet now, which makes no sense. AS likes the commonality being all 737. They like the relationship they have with Boeing. They haven't found the Airbus product to offer enough of an advantage to making giving up either of those worthwhile. Same reason WN got rid of the 717s, only it sounds like AS won't ditch the A320s quite as quickly. they'll let attrition take care of that and replace them with 737s as they go along. Aside from the A321, the A320 and A319 don't bring them much, if any, capability that their 737s can't do for them, and they apparently feel the A321's extra capability isn't enough to make it worth adding to the fleet.
 
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keesje
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:05 am

Alaska could have well very used the added capability of the A321's. But now the 737-10 is around the corner that opportunity will diminish and the advantages of fleet commonality will probably beat performance advantages of the A321s (that probably aren't required by AS). However the -10 is some time away so they'll probably hold onto the A321 as long as required. Given that, it makes sense to keep the A320 also some longer to have economies of scale.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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RWA380
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:31 am

Super80Fan wrote:
My point is I think AS is making a mistake sticking to solely Boeing.


Your obvious Airbus fascination aside, your comments are vague & offer no substantiation. If AS was making such a huge mistake with being Boeing since the 60's, with the exception of their M80's, which AS states were a mistake, this small carrier is now the 5th largest in the country & one of the most profitable. So explain why if AS is making such a big mistake, why they are making tons of cash, being a most favored carrier & ever expanding?

It's already been determined that the new 321's offer nothing that would help AS expand, the additional range is useless for AS for their routes, both current & yes, for their future based upon their plans.

The sub fleets operated by QX & OO are the perfect match for the air carrier they have become. Airbus are not in the AS future, it won't change.
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mjoelnir
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:51 am

AS was an all Boeing airline, except some Embraer. For a midsized airline, flying only narrow bodies, it seems to be reasonable to go for only one producer. Some airlines have shown that you get good deals out of Boeing while staying all Boeing, like for example RyanAir, Southwest and even Icelandair. Now AS bought VX with it's all Airbus A320 family fleet. So what if AS gets rid of all the Airbus? Fastest way would be a deal with a leasor, taking the Airbus and providing 737. What if As keeps the A320 family aircraft and has a second pool of frames, being now big enough to be able to do it, getting experience with running Airbus frames. One point is that it needs 3 to 4 years to replace A321 with 737-10.
What is the point to this discussion? Yes I am an Airbus fan, but I also have sometimes to explain why my home airline Icelandair stays all Boeing and we should expect quite a few airlines to stay all Boeing.
 
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keesje
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:16 am

I don't think the A321NEO capabilities; (LR range, pallet/container capability, wider cabin, lower noise levels or airfield performance are as relevant to AS as maybe to their competitors. They have already been pushing out MAX-9 deliveries so they will probably convert them to -10's, buying some time. With the right incentives from Seattle, chances of AS going the A321 route longer term, like DL, AA, Frontier, JetBlue, HA, Spirit, are very slim. If you ignore the MD80s, Q400's and Embraers they were really always a single type operator.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: News Report Says AS Likely to Make Announcement About an All Boeing Fleet in the 4th Quarter

Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:32 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
A news report today suggests AS will make an announcement about going to an all Boeing fleet in the 4 Quarter of this year.


You seem to be jumping to conclusions. All they said was:

Alaska Air has said it will announce a decision on its long-term fleet strategy by the end of 2017


Which is exactly the same they said in early 2017.

Of course, there is nothing that would stop AS from ditching the Airbus fleet. As discussed before, AS could get rid of the A320 family fleet in 10-15 years from now: the A320ceo leases are due to expire in 2024, the A320neo order (due in 2020) may get axed and the brand new A321neo leases should expire from 2029. Alternatively AS could terminate the lease contracts earlier, but that's an expensive venture not many airlines are willing to do.

AAlaxfan wrote:
Alaska has determined that an all Boeing fleet is what works for them. Just like Southwest, Ryanair and others.


Note that AS operates Embraer aircraft, there is no such thing as "all Boeing fleet".
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
Nicoeddf
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:10 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
It's crazy how emotionally invested some people get over an airline operating an airplane.


Yes, like a religion. And that hasn't brought a lot of good stuff on humanity.
Enslave yourself to the divine disguised as salvation
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Deception justified for your holy design
High on our platform spewing out your crimes
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william
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:29 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
AAlaxfan wrote:
I don't understand your point. How can you say Southwest has a different product? A 737 is a 737. It's internal configuration doesn't matter. Southwest and Ryanair are 737 only operators and have seen no need, or have any desire, to fly an Airbus plane at this time. If you're saying Alaska needs Airbus you should extend your reasoning to all the other 737 only operators.

Again, please explain why AS needs Airbus and WN doesn't?


It's bizarre. I can't follow the logic either but it might be because logic is lacking.


Southwest has an all 737 fleet because it works for them. They aren't arrogant about it nor do they trash a competitor's airplane just because it isn't a Boeing.


You must not have heard of old "Herb" of SWA.
 
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william
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:35 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
It's crazy how emotionally invested some people get over an airline operating an airplane.


True. With that stated, why is going all Airbus accepted as normal and smart yet going all Boeing is bad or retro? Its so humorous reading the double standard. Airbus has 60% of the narrow body market and growing, a cash cow called the A321NEO and yet some are offended by what a CEO of a relatively small airline says?
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:42 pm

william wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
It's crazy how emotionally invested some people get over an airline operating an airplane.


True. With that stated, why is going all Airbus accepted as normal and smart yet going all Boeing is bad or retro? Its so humorous reading the double standard. Airbus has 60% of the narrow body market and growing, a cash cow called the A321NEO and yet some are offended by what a CEO of a relatively small airline says?


Airbus does not have 60% of the narrowbody market and growing. Airbus has 55.8% of the Backlog when only looking at 737s and A320s.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:44 pm

william wrote:
True. With that stated, why is going all Airbus accepted as normal and smart yet going all Boeing is bad or retro?


It's not normal. When a Boeing operator goes "all Airbus", a.net literally explodes. Remember that JAL A350 order? Popcorn guaranteed.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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AAlaxfan
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Re: News Report Says AS Likely to Make Announcement About an All Boeing Fleet in the 4th Quarter

Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:22 pm

KarelXWB wrote:

AAlaxfan wrote:
Alaska has determined that an all Boeing fleet is what works for them. Just like Southwest, Ryanair and others.


Note that AS operates Embraer aircraft, there is no such thing as "all Boeing fleet".


However Alaska main line does not operate these aircraft. They are operated by Skywest for Alaska. So technically speaking Alaska has determined that the main line fleet should remain all Boeing.
Grumpy. Not a dwarf, not an attitude. It's a lifestyle.
 
ucdtim17
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Re: News Report Says AS Likely to Make Announcement About an All Boeing Fleet in the 4th Quarter

Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:34 pm

AAlaxfan wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:

AAlaxfan wrote:
Alaska has determined that an all Boeing fleet is what works for them. Just like Southwest, Ryanair and others.


Note that AS operates Embraer aircraft, there is no such thing as "all Boeing fleet".


However Alaska main line does not operate these aircraft. They are operated by Skywest for Alaska. So technically speaking Alaska has determined that the main line fleet should remain all Boeing.


Also by Horizon, which is owned by Alaska
 
jbs2886
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Re: News Report Says AS Likely to Make Announcement About an All Boeing Fleet in the 4th Quarter

Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:40 pm

ucdtim17 wrote:
AAlaxfan wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:



Note that AS operates Embraer aircraft, there is no such thing as "all Boeing fleet".


However Alaska main line does not operate these aircraft. They are operated by Skywest for Alaska. So technically speaking Alaska has determined that the main line fleet should remain all Boeing.


Also by Horizon, which is owned by Alaska


Incorrect. Alaska Airlines and Horizon Airlines are separate companies owned by Alaska Air Group. Alaska Airlines does not own Horizon Airlines. Further, Alaska Air Group does not claim to be "all Boeing" - only Alaska Airlines.
 
ucdtim17
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Re: News Report Says AS Likely to Make Announcement About an All Boeing Fleet in the 4th Quarter

Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:47 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
ucdtim17 wrote:
AAlaxfan wrote:

However Alaska main line does not operate these aircraft. They are operated by Skywest for Alaska. So technically speaking Alaska has determined that the main line fleet should remain all Boeing.


Also by Horizon, which is owned by Alaska


Incorrect. Alaska Airlines and Horizon Airlines are separate companies owned by Alaska Air Group. Alaska Airlines does not own Horizon Airlines. Further, Alaska Air Group does not claim to be "all Boeing" - only Alaska Airlines.


:roll: If they don't want "Alaska" to refer to "Alaska Air Group" they should rename the parent company so as to avoid confusion with "Alaska Airlines"
 
jbs2886
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Re: News Report Says AS Likely to Make Announcement About an All Boeing Fleet in the 4th Quarter

Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:51 pm

ucdtim17 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
ucdtim17 wrote:

Also by Horizon, which is owned by Alaska


Incorrect. Alaska Airlines and Horizon Airlines are separate companies owned by Alaska Air Group. Alaska Airlines does not own Horizon Airlines. Further, Alaska Air Group does not claim to be "all Boeing" - only Alaska Airlines.


:roll: If they don't want "Alaska" to refer to "Alaska Air Group" they should rename the parent company so as to avoid confusion with "Alaska Airlines"


If you don't understand how corporate structures work, that's your problem. The poster said "Alaska mainline" which can only refer to Alaska Airlines, not Alaska Air Group - so the poster didn't just say "Alaska" as you contend.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:42 pm

RWA380 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
My point is I think AS is making a mistake sticking to solely Boeing.


Your obvious Airbus fascination aside, your comments are vague & offer no substantiation. If AS was making such a huge mistake with being Boeing since the 60's, with the exception of their M80's, which AS states were a mistake, this small carrier is now the 5th largest in the country & one of the most profitable. So explain why if AS is making such a big mistake, why they are making tons of cash, being a most favored carrier & ever expanding?

It's already been determined that the new 321's offer nothing that would help AS expand, the additional range is useless for AS for their routes, both current & yes, for their future based upon their plans.

The sub fleets operated by QX & OO are the perfect match for the air carrier they have become. Airbus are not in the AS future, it won't change.


I'm a Boeing guy, that being said AS's fetish for Boeing is disturbing. If they try out the A32X fleet and see it doesn't work for their business, that is one thing. Immediately planning on getting rid of the A32X fleet and sticking to an all 737 fleet is a completely other situation.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:47 pm

I find it humorous that folks talk about the "performance advantages of the A321 Neo." What specific advantages are being referenced? Per every independent industry analysis I have seen...(and you can find the links to many of these in the 737-10 Max thread), The 737-10 Max is extremely competitive with the A321 Neo in CASM, fuel burn, etc.

I would think the large number of orders/conversions for the 737-10 Max at the Paris Airshow would make this obvious. Airlines do not make these decisions frivolously. I think it is safe to assume an airline as profitable and well run as AS will make the best business decision for their needs. That would not include ditching the A321 Neo if it clearly has "performance advantages" over the 737-10 Max.
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milemaster
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:08 pm

Image

The level of nerd in this thread is at the maximum level.
 
tjh8402
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:25 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
I find it humorous that folks talk about the "performance advantages of the A321 Neo." What specific advantages are being referenced? Per every independent industry analysis I have seen...(and you can find the links to many of these in the 737-10 Max thread), The 737-10 Max is extremely competitive with the A321 Neo in CASM, fuel burn, etc.

I would think the large number of orders/conversions for the 737-10 Max at the Paris Airshow would make this obvious. Airlines do not make these decisions frivolously. I think it is safe to assume an airline as profitable and well run as AS will make the best business decision for their needs. That would not include ditching the A321 Neo if it clearly has "performance advantages" over the 737-10 Max.


I'm a Boeing fanboy, but even I'll admit the 321 NEO and LR can do things the -10 can't (primarily involving payload and capacity over long ranges). The -10 is great if you don't need to carry its load of passengers very far or carry much cargo. It can probably cover a majority of A321 routes just fine, but just as the 757 offers a performance edge over the A321 on a select few routes, so does the A321 over the -10.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:49 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
My point is I think AS is making a mistake sticking to solely Boeing.


Your obvious Airbus fascination aside, your comments are vague & offer no substantiation. If AS was making such a huge mistake with being Boeing since the 60's, with the exception of their M80's, which AS states were a mistake, this small carrier is now the 5th largest in the country & one of the most profitable. So explain why if AS is making such a big mistake, why they are making tons of cash, being a most favored carrier & ever expanding?

It's already been determined that the new 321's offer nothing that would help AS expand, the additional range is useless for AS for their routes, both current & yes, for their future based upon their plans.

The sub fleets operated by QX & OO are the perfect match for the air carrier they have become. Airbus are not in the AS future, it won't change.


I'm a Boeing guy, that being said AS's fetish for Boeing is disturbing. If they try out the A32X fleet and see it doesn't work for their business, that is one thing. Immediately planning on getting rid of the A32X fleet and sticking to an all 737 fleet is a completely other situation.


I'm a Boeing guy (hahaha!), that being said your lack of understanding of fleet planning is disturbing. Airlines don't "try out" fleets and see if they like them. They do thorough analysis of all of the factors and make their best possible business decision. These are billion dollar fleet decisions. They aren't made by "fetishes". Apparently, AS has made a long term fleet decision that they feel best supports their business needs.

What do you think, this is like REI where you can try out a tent for a month and decide whether you want to keep it?
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:10 pm

keesje wrote:
I don't think the A321NEO capabilities; (LR range, pallet/container capability, wider cabin, lower noise levels or airfield performance are as relevant to AS as maybe to their competitors. They have already been pushing out MAX-9 deliveries so they will probably convert them to -10's, buying some time. With the right incentives from Seattle, chances of AS going the A321 route longer term, like DL, AA, Frontier, JetBlue, HA, Spirit, are very slim. If you ignore the MD80s, Q400's and Embraers they were really always a single type operator.


Lol You get A for consistency. :-)

KarelXWB wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
A news report today suggests AS will make an announcement about going to an all Boeing fleet in the 4 Quarter of this year.


You seem to be jumping to conclusions. All they said was:

Alaska Air has said it will announce a decision on its long-term fleet strategy by the end of 2017


Which is exactly the same they said in early 2017.

Of course, there is nothing that would stop AS from ditching the Airbus fleet. As discussed before, AS could get rid of the A320 family fleet in 10-15 years from now: the A320ceo leases are due to expire in 2024, the A320neo order (due in 2020) may get axed and the brand new A321neo leases should expire from 2029. Alternatively AS could terminate the lease contracts earlier, but that's an expensive venture not many airlines are willing to do.

AAlaxfan wrote:
Alaska has determined that an all Boeing fleet is what works for them. Just like Southwest, Ryanair and others.


Note that AS operates Embraer aircraft, there is no such thing as "all Boeing fleet".


I don't see them ending any of the non-A321neo contracts early - no reason to. However, as the Airbus leases start unwinding and the A321neo gets closer to being an orphan in an otherwise all-737 fleet, I imagine a deal could be made to swap out new-build MAXs through the lessor in exchange for returning the much-desired A321neos for someone else to take on. There might be a cost involved but I can't imagine it would be so great as to override another 5 years of having 10 or fewer A321neos hanging out.

Super80Fan wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
My point is I think AS is making a mistake sticking to solely Boeing.


Your obvious Airbus fascination aside, your comments are vague & offer no substantiation. If AS was making such a huge mistake with being Boeing since the 60's, with the exception of their M80's, which AS states were a mistake, this small carrier is now the 5th largest in the country & one of the most profitable. So explain why if AS is making such a big mistake, why they are making tons of cash, being a most favored carrier & ever expanding?

It's already been determined that the new 321's offer nothing that would help AS expand, the additional range is useless for AS for their routes, both current & yes, for their future based upon their plans.

The sub fleets operated by QX & OO are the perfect match for the air carrier they have become. Airbus are not in the AS future, it won't change.


I'm a Boeing guy, that being said AS's fetish for Boeing is disturbing. If they try out the A32X fleet and see it doesn't work for their business, that is one thing. Immediately planning on getting rid of the A32X fleet and sticking to an all 737 fleet is a completely other situation.


What is this mystery that they need to figure out? They've already stated what having a dual fleet would cost, they know what the lease rates are on the A320s (and what the deal was on the A320neos), and they know what Boeing is offering them on the MAXs. They also have access now to every single data point that VX has on operating the type. I guess I'm at a loss how this is something they still need to work through?

And, again, we don't hear a word about Indigo ordering hundreds of A320s, AirAsia ordering hundreds of A320s, etc. Are those unhealthy fetishes as well? I think people are putting way too much weight into a decal and comments to the local Seattle business community.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:01 pm

tjh8402 wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
I find it humorous that folks talk about the "performance advantages of the A321 Neo." What specific advantages are being referenced? Per every independent industry analysis I have seen...(and you can find the links to many of these in the 737-10 Max thread), The 737-10 Max is extremely competitive with the A321 Neo in CASM, fuel burn, etc.

I would think the large number of orders/conversions for the 737-10 Max at the Paris Airshow would make this obvious. Airlines do not make these decisions frivolously. I think it is safe to assume an airline as profitable and well run as AS will make the best business decision for their needs. That would not include ditching the A321 Neo if it clearly has "performance advantages" over the 737-10 Max.





The reference made was to the A321 neo. Not the LR variant which AS does not have. Boeing states the 737-10 MAX has a range equal to or greater than the A321 neo. If fact, the claim was made by Boeing's chief engineer.

Do you have evidence to refute this claim?
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Newbiepilot
Posts: 3638
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:07 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
My point is I think AS is making a mistake sticking to solely Boeing.


Your obvious Airbus fascination aside, your comments are vague & offer no substantiation. If AS was making such a huge mistake with being Boeing since the 60's, with the exception of their M80's, which AS states were a mistake, this small carrier is now the 5th largest in the country & one of the most profitable. So explain why if AS is making such a big mistake, why they are making tons of cash, being a most favored carrier & ever expanding?

It's already been determined that the new 321's offer nothing that would help AS expand, the additional range is useless for AS for their routes, both current & yes, for their future based upon their plans.

The sub fleets operated by QX & OO are the perfect match for the air carrier they have become. Airbus are not in the AS future, it won't change.


I'm a Boeing guy, that being said AS's fetish for Boeing is disturbing. If they try out the A32X fleet and see it doesn't work for their business, that is one thing. Immediately planning on getting rid of the A32X fleet and sticking to an all 737 fleet is a completely other situation.


I find your comment about Alaska's fleet planning being a fetish to be what is disturbing. Airlines evaluate the total life cycle cost of an airplane. Acquisition price, lease fees, maintenance, spare parts provisioning and repair, reliability, fuel burn, range, payload, capacity, etc, to determine what is the appropriate fleet type. They don't need to try out a plane to evaluate it.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:21 pm

You all can't sit here then and defend AS's hostile takeover of VX. They don't plan on keeping anything VX except for maybe the employees, if even. This was 110% an acquisition to dispose of a competitor, nothing more, nothing less. People complain of DL and B6 fanboys but AS fanboys are on a different planet. Here's hoping B6 or DL takes over AS eventually and "disposes" of them.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
jbs2886
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:52 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
You all can't sit here then and defend AS's hostile takeover of VX. They don't plan on keeping anything VX except for maybe the employees, if even. This was 110% an acquisition to dispose of a competitor, nothing more, nothing less. People complain of DL and B6 fanboys but AS fanboys are on a different planet. Here's hoping B6 or DL takes over AS eventually and "disposes" of them.


Ahh yes, that is why they are dismantling VX's entire network. Wait....
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:02 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
You all can't sit here then and defend AS's hostile takeover of VX. They don't plan on keeping anything VX except for maybe the employees, if even. This was 110% an acquisition to dispose of a competitor, nothing more, nothing less. People complain of DL and B6 fanboys but AS fanboys are on a different planet. Here's hoping B6 or DL takes over AS eventually and "disposes" of them.


Ahh yes, that is why they are dismantling VX's entire network. Wait....


All those flights they just added from SFO and DAL that are part of VX's core network, are a sure sign that AS is 110% [sic] intent on disposing of a competitor, nothing more.

You're like that guy who posts every day how DL is disposing of their DTW hub. Pure fantasy.
 
gmcc
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:04 pm

On the conference call today AS stated that they are working on getting the A321neo etops certified and operating in Hawaii by the end of the year
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:07 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
You all can't sit here then and defend AS's hostile takeover of VX. They don't plan on keeping anything VX except for maybe the employees, if even. This was 110% an acquisition to dispose of a competitor, nothing more, nothing less. People complain of DL and B6 fanboys but AS fanboys are on a different planet. Here's hoping B6 or DL takes over AS eventually and "disposes" of them.


Well at least we know who we're dealing with now. :-)

As for the A321neos to Hawaii - that'd be a great way of facing the coming HA narrowbody challenge.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
tjh8402
Posts: 957
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:40 pm

[photoid]l[/photoid]
ElroyJetson wrote:
tjh8402 wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
I find it humorous that folks talk about the "performance advantages of the A321 Neo." What specific advantages are being referenced? Per every independent industry analysis I have seen...(and you can find the links to many of these in the 737-10 Max thread), The 737-10 Max is extremely competitive with the A321 Neo in CASM, fuel burn, etc.

I would think the large number of orders/conversions for the 737-10 Max at the Paris Airshow would make this obvious. Airlines do not make these decisions frivolously. I think it is safe to assume an airline as profitable and well run as AS will make the best business decision for their needs. That would not include ditching the A321 Neo if it clearly has "performance advantages" over the 737-10 Max.





The reference made was to the A321 neo. Not the LR variant which AS does not have. Boeing states the 737-10 MAX has a range equal to or greater than the A321 neo. If fact, the claim was made by Boeing's chief engineer.

Do you have evidence to refute this claim?


The 737-10 has longer legs than the A321 NEO when neither have ACTs. Add them in and the A321 goes further (googling says ~3200 nm for the -10 and 3700 nm for the 321. the 321 has more available payload. This is the conventional NEO, not the LR.
 
CX747
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:40 am

ikolkyo wrote:
william wrote:
Funny how we don't see this angst when an airline goes full Airbus. Its treated as the "normal" thing to do. I don't believe SWA gets the shaft from Boeing when it comes to deals on 737s.


It's honestly a joke at how some people react to an airline not wanting A320s and especially A321s. Act like it's the end of world.


Exactly. The 737 is just as good of an aircraft as it's competitors, if not better. The aircraft has held it's own in the manner Boeing wants for quite sometime and continues to shine.

I like the fact that the CEO mentioned his Dad and some personal thoughts. He is being honest in that his loyalties in this arena are with the hometown company. Decisions are not made in a vacuum, that's reality. The A320 would not be where it is today if the major airlines of it original ownership consortium in Germany, France, England and Spain didn't some how dump massive fleets of US produced 737s or MD-80s in favor of the hometown product.

AS has a business model that works well with the 737 and they want to grow that while phasing out Airbus products in a timely manner that makes sense. The CEO didn't say he hates Airbus and that the company would dump the aircraft in a way that hurt the bottom line. Nor did VX's all Airbus fleet stop them from purchasing the airline (funny how the British backed company had an all Euro aircraft fleet that didn't raise any eyebrows). A sequenced phasing out is scheduled and the company's chosen horse will be procured as the fleet moves forward. Sounds like a good business plan for a profitable company.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:04 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
I find it humorous that folks talk about the "performance advantages of the A321 Neo." What specific advantages are being referenced? Per every independent industry analysis I have seen...(and you can find the links to many of these in the 737-10 Max thread), The 737-10 Max is extremely competitive with the A321 Neo in CASM, fuel burn, etc.


Uses less runway, flies further, carries more payload. Performance is not the same as efficiency. The 777-200LR is very high performance but not high efficiency. As long as you don't need the range and your runways are long, the MAX 10 is competitive.


ElroyJetson wrote:

The reference made was to the A321 neo. Not the LR variant which AS does not have. Boeing states the 737-10 MAX has a range equal to or greater than the A321 neo. If fact, the claim was made by Boeing's chief engineer.

Do you have evidence to refute this claim?


You'll want to take the Boeing Chief Engineer's words with a pinch of salt. The MAX 10 has a range of 5960km as per Boeing's website, the A321neo has 6850km as per Airbus' website.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/737max10/index.page

http://www.aircraft.airbus.com/aircraft ... y/a321neo/
 
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flee
Posts: 955
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:17 am

CX747 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
william wrote:
Funny how we don't see this angst when an airline goes full Airbus. Its treated as the "normal" thing to do. I don't believe SWA gets the shaft from Boeing when it comes to deals on 737s.


It's honestly a joke at how some people react to an airline not wanting A320s and especially A321s. Act like it's the end of world.


Exactly. The 737 is just as good of an aircraft as it's competitors, if not better. The aircraft has held it's own in the manner Boeing wants for quite sometime and continues to shine.

I like the fact that the CEO mentioned his Dad and some personal thoughts. He is being honest in that his loyalties in this arena are with the hometown company. Decisions are not made in a vacuum, that's reality. The A320 would not be where it is today if the major airlines of it original ownership consortium in Germany, France, England and Spain didn't some how dump massive fleets of US produced 737s or MD-80s in favor of the hometown product.

AS has a business model that works well with the 737 and they want to grow that while phasing out Airbus products in a timely manner that makes sense. The CEO didn't say he hates Airbus and that the company would dump the aircraft in a way that hurt the bottom line. Nor did VX's all Airbus fleet stop them from purchasing the airline (funny how the British backed company had an all Euro aircraft fleet that didn't raise any eyebrows). A sequenced phasing out is scheduled and the company's chosen horse will be procured as the fleet moves forward. Sounds like a good business plan for a profitable company.

As a neutral observer (i.e. not Boeing nor Airbus fanboy), I think that there are indeed differences between Airbus and Boeing aircraft. However, they are very small and not significant enough to swing it one way or another.

It is a fact that neither Boeing nor Airbus is able to supply the WHOLE narrow body market. As such it is good that airlines have a choice to suit their needs. More often than not, it all boils down to delivery slots, price and the commercial terms of purchase as the performance and efficiency of the A320/B737 are so close.

I am sure that Alaska will make good profits, whether it has an all Boeing or all Airbus fleet.
 
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RWA380
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:18 am

Super80Fan wrote:
You all can't sit here then and defend AS's hostile takeover of VX. They don't plan on keeping anything VX except for maybe the employees, if even. This was 110% an acquisition to dispose of a competitor, nothing more, nothing less. People complain of DL and B6 fanboys but AS fanboys are on a different planet. Here's hoping B6 or DL takes over AS eventually and "disposes" of them.


Wow, a pissy fit, it's been a while. I'm setting you straight once nicely. AS didn't acquire VX by hostile takeover, VX put themselves up for sale & AS had the deepest pockets & won the bidding, the VX board approved the acquisition, nothing hostile about it at all.

As has been discussed here ad nauseum, is that AS wanted more than a token presence at SFO & wanted to grow it's LAX presence. They bought VX to obtain those things all at once, instead of trying to organically grow those presences, they have now done exactly that & their plan is no secret.

Yes, we do complain about DL fanboys & B6 fanboys & AS fanboys too, but just because your arguments & wording are piss poor doesn't mean that AS will be taken over, or that you should wish that upon those fine AS employees.

Now act civil going forward & listen a bit more when people are responding to you, instead of lashing out, you'll have a happier time here if you do.
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oosnowrat
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:18 am

keesje wrote:
If you ignore the MD80s, Q400's and Embraers they were really always a single type operator.


How quickly we forget the Convairs.
 
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ElroyJetson
Posts: 648
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Re: Alaska CEO on Airbus

Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:35 am

tjh8402 wrote:
[photoid]l[/photoid]
ElroyJetson wrote:
tjh8402 wrote:





The reference made was to the A321 neo. Not the LR variant which AS does not have. Boeing states the 737-10 MAX has a range equal to or greater than the A321 neo. If fact, the claim was made by Boeing's chief engineer.

Do you have evidence to refute this claim?


The 737-10 has longer legs than the A321 NEO when neither have ACTs. Add them in and the A321 goes further (googling says ~3200 nm for the -10 and 3700 nm for the 321. the 321 has more available payload. This is the conventional NEO, not the LR.




You are correct. The 737-10 MAX has more range than the A321 Neo. The figures Airbus often uses are very misleading as they include two aux belly tanks. Straight up, the 737-10 MAX has more range and CASM and fuel burn are very, very close.

Boeing also claims more range than the A321 Neo if they also include aux tanks on their plane.

Bottom line: The 737-10 Max and the A321 Neo are highly competitive. For posters to imply the A321 Neo has a clear superiority simply do not know what they are talking about.
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