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CanadaFair
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No Europe services from Gibraltar?

Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:01 am

Surprised only UK airlines fly there to/from the UK and nothing else for EU, why so?
 
LXwing
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Re: No Europe services from Gibraltar?

Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:28 am

Being a tiny territory inhabited by little more than 30k people mostly having ties with either the UK (thus the direct flights) or Spain (accessible by land), who else would find a market to serve?
 
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tommyarias
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Re: No Europe services from Gibraltar?

Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:29 am

Iberia, BA and Ándalus operated flights to Barcelona and Madrid but terminated them because of lack of demand, same with flights to the UK and reduce services to others. Guess it's just lack of interest in visiting Gibraltar, which is understandable.
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redadeco
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Re: No Europe services from Gibraltar?

Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:02 am

The airport is designed to handle only a handful of flights a day. Check out GIB's runway on youtube it crosses the main street in town that leads to the border, if landings/takeoffs were to occur every 15 or 30 minutes no one would be able to cross in or out by foot/car.

GIB is connected to the UK and TNG by air and Spain by land, these places are by far the most linked to the enclave. GIB can't accommodate mass tourism and even British workers over there elect to overnight across the border in Spain because of high accommodation costs as in every city-"state" I know.
 
flyfresno
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Re: No Europe services from Gibraltar?

Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:20 am

redadeco wrote:
The airport is designed to handle only a handful of flights a day. Check out GIB's runway on youtube it crosses the main street in town that leads to the border, if landings/takeoffs were to occur every 15 or 30 minutes no one would be able to cross in or out by foot/car.

GIB is connected to the UK and TNG by air and Spain by land, these places are by far the most linked to the enclave. GIB can't accommodate mass tourism and even British workers over there elect to overnight across the border in Spain because of high accommodation costs as in every city-"state" I know.


Not that this will lead to any appreciable changes in flights, but there is a new tunnel *under* the runway (almost a decade in the making) that is set to open next year. After that, no more driving across. So, if you have ever wanted to legally bike or drive across a runway that commercial aircraft regularly use, better get there soon!
 
MalevTU134
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Re: No Europe services from Gibraltar?

Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:30 am

flyfresno wrote:
redadeco wrote:
The airport is designed to handle only a handful of flights a day. Check out GIB's runway on youtube it crosses the main street in town that leads to the border, if landings/takeoffs were to occur every 15 or 30 minutes no one would be able to cross in or out by foot/car.

GIB is connected to the UK and TNG by air and Spain by land, these places are by far the most linked to the enclave. GIB can't accommodate mass tourism and even British workers over there elect to overnight across the border in Spain because of high accommodation costs as in every city-"state" I know.


Not that this will lead to any appreciable changes in flights, but there is a new tunnel *under* the runway (almost a decade in the making) that is set to open next year. After that, no more driving across. So, if you have ever wanted to legally bike or drive across a runway that commercial aircraft regularly use, better get there soon!

...or get over to Funafuti, with its airport code of FUN, in Tuvalu, and you can drive, bike, walk or even play ball on a runway that commercial aircraft regularly use...
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: No Europe services from Gibraltar?

Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:39 am

redadeco wrote:
The airport is designed to handle only a handful of flights a day. Check out GIB's runway on youtube it crosses the main street in town that leads to the border, if landings/takeoffs were to occur every 15 or 30 minutes no one would be able to cross in or out by foot/car.

GIB is connected to the UK and TNG by air and Spain by land, these places are by far the most linked to the enclave. GIB can't accommodate mass tourism and even British workers over there elect to overnight across the border in Spain because of high accommodation costs as in every city-"state" I know.


There is a tunnel being built. However, there is still the issue of the runway's length---at only 5500 feet, the largest aircraft it can accept are the A320 and the B737-800. Any extension would have to be similar to Madeira.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: No Europe services from Gibraltar?

Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:56 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
redadeco wrote:
The airport is designed to handle only a handful of flights a day. Check out GIB's runway on youtube it crosses the main street in town that leads to the border, if landings/takeoffs were to occur every 15 or 30 minutes no one would be able to cross in or out by foot/car.

GIB is connected to the UK and TNG by air and Spain by land, these places are by far the most linked to the enclave. GIB can't accommodate mass tourism and even British workers over there elect to overnight across the border in Spain because of high accommodation costs as in every city-"state" I know.


There is a tunnel being built. However, there is still the issue of the runway's length---at only 5500 feet, the largest aircraft it can accept are the A320 and the B737-800. Any extension would have to be similar to Madeira.

That argument is moot for the purpose of this thread, as you can easily get to almost anywhere in Europe with those aircraft types from a 5500 ft runway at sea level. Nobody is suggesting longhaul flights from GIB.
As has been said, the reason is lack of demand.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: No Europe services from Gibraltar?

Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:42 am

flyfresno wrote:
redadeco wrote:
The airport is designed to handle only a handful of flights a day. Check out GIB's runway on youtube it crosses the main street in town that leads to the border, if landings/takeoffs were to occur every 15 or 30 minutes no one would be able to cross in or out by foot/car.

GIB is connected to the UK and TNG by air and Spain by land, these places are by far the most linked to the enclave. GIB can't accommodate mass tourism and even British workers over there elect to overnight across the border in Spain because of high accommodation costs as in every city-"state" I know.


Not that this will lead to any appreciable changes in flights, but there is a new tunnel *under* the runway (almost a decade in the making) that is set to open next year. After that, no more driving across. So, if you have ever wanted to legally bike or drive across a runway that commercial aircraft regularly use, better get there soon!


The crossing will still be open, I'm fairly certain you'll still be able to walk and cycle across.
 
Jerry123
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Re: No Europe services from Gibraltar?

Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:58 am

The airport is only small and Gibraltar has only 30,000 people so only enough for a couple of routes to the UK. Only LHR and LGW are daily i believe. Gibraltar does get a lot tourism but most arrive via Spain or on cruise ships.
 
jmmadrid
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Re: No Europe services from Gibraltar?

Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:46 pm

tommyarias wrote:
Iberia, BA and Ándalus operated flights to Barcelona and Madrid but terminated them because of lack of demand, same with flights to the UK and reduce services to others. Guess it's just lack of interest in visiting Gibraltar, which is understandable.


I agree with the lack of interest in visiting Gibraltar, HOWEVER, let's not forget that next to Gibraltar lies the spanish district of CAMPO DE GIBRALTAR, with a population of more than 250.000 people, including the super busy spanish port of Algeciras with a continuous racking of people, mostly seafarers. Also, the very posh spanish resort of Sotogrande, home to millionaires form all over the world is a barely 30 minutes drive from Gibraltar Airport. All these people should find this airport way more convenient than the closest alternative, Málaga.

By the way, Gibraltar Airport has convenient and direct access from Spain, and there's no need to cross the border by land.

Taking all this into consideration, it is very strange that not even a daily flight to Madrid in Air Nostrum's CRJ-100 exists.
 
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reidar76
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Re: No Europe services from Gibraltar?

Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:54 pm

jmmadrid wrote:
tommyarias wrote:
Iberia, BA and Ándalus operated flights to Barcelona and Madrid but terminated them because of lack of demand, same with flights to the UK and reduce services to others. Guess it's just lack of interest in visiting Gibraltar, which is understandable.


I agree with the lack of interest in visiting Gibraltar, HOWEVER, let's not forget that next to Gibraltar lies the spanish district of CAMPO DE GIBRALTAR, with a population of more than 250.000 people, including the super busy spanish port of Algeciras with a continuous racking of people, mostly seafarers. Also, the very posh spanish resort of Sotogrande, home to millionaires form all over the world is a barely 30 minutes drive from Gibraltar Airport. All these people should find this airport way more convenient than the closest alternative, Málaga.

By the way, Gibraltar Airport has convenient and direct access from Spain, and there's no need to cross the border by land.

Taking all this into consideration, it is very strange that not even a daily flight to Madrid in Air Nostrum's CRJ-100 exists.


It's about 1 1/2 hour by car to Malaga airport, which is a relatively large airport with intercontinental connections. Even closer is Jerez international, which is located close to Cádiz.

If you are going from Gibraltar to Madrid, I would take the high speed, very comfortable, AVE trains. It is about 2 hours and 20 minutes from Malaga to Madrid, and the trains runs every hour or so.

Image
Last edited by reidar76 on Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ChrisKen
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Re: No Europe services from Gibraltar?

Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:05 pm

Gib - Spain flights are hampered by the wee spat Spain's government insist on continuing.
That aside, the airlines also know it's fairly pointless with Malaga and Cadiz within a short drive.
 
smallvoyageur
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Re: No Europe services from Gibraltar?

Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:50 pm

reidar76 wrote:
jmmadrid wrote:
tommyarias wrote:
Iberia, BA and Ándalus operated flights to Barcelona and Madrid but terminated them because of lack of demand, same with flights to the UK and reduce services to others. Guess it's just lack of interest in visiting Gibraltar, which is understandable.


I agree with the lack of interest in visiting Gibraltar, HOWEVER, let's not forget that next to Gibraltar lies the spanish district of CAMPO DE GIBRALTAR, with a population of more than 250.000 people, including the super busy spanish port of Algeciras with a continuous racking of people, mostly seafarers. Also, the very posh spanish resort of Sotogrande, home to millionaires form all over the world is a barely 30 minutes drive from Gibraltar Airport. All these people should find this airport way more convenient than the closest alternative, Málaga.

By the way, Gibraltar Airport has convenient and direct access from Spain, and there's no need to cross the border by land.

Taking all this into consideration, it is very strange that not even a daily flight to Madrid in Air Nostrum's CRJ-100 exists.


It's about 1 1/2 hour by car to Malaga airport, which is a relatively large airport with intercontinental connections. Even closer is Jerez international, which is located close to Cádiz.

If you are going from Gibraltar to Madrid, I would take the high speed, very comfortable, AVE trains. It is about 2 hours and 20 minutes from Malaga to Madrid, and the trains runs every hour or so.

Image


Seat61.com can let you know about how to get to the Rock by train (& bus).
https://www.seat61.com/Gibraltar.htm
 
SCQ83
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Re: No Europe services from Gibraltar?

Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:05 pm

GIB does not only serve Gibraltar.

La Linea (which I think is Spain's poorest city) is literally across the road from the airport and is about 60,000. Algeciras (relatively wealthy) and one of the largest ports in Spain and a city of 120,000, is half an hour away. What is more interesting, Sotogrande, a very wealthy 2nd home enclave in Cádiz, is about 20 minutes away (this is where many Gibraltarians actually live). And Manilva and Casares (trillions of 2nd residences) are also much closer to GIB than to AGP. Also GIB is the closest airport to Tarifa which is a very well known area for windsurfers.

ChrisKen wrote:
Gib - Spain flights are hampered by the wee spat Spain's government insist on continuing.
That aside, the airlines also know it's fairly pointless with Malaga and Cadiz within a short drive.


It is 1h30' in the best of times from AGP to Gibraltar. However the AP-7 and A-7 motorways from the airport to Estepona are usually heavy in traffic, specially in summer (and increasingly due to more and more tourists, residents and 2nd home owners). So GIB would be the best location for areas located West of Estepona.

I think GIB could become a niche airport with some additional flights to Germany or Switzerland. A very good example is XRY. It is relatively far from the coast and quite close to SVQ (1h by train or car to Seville), however they see a number of destinations in German-speaking countries (Condor, TUI, Eurowings...) specially for holiday makers in Costa Ballena. Maybe some flights to ZRH, DUS or FRA could work more on a holiday-basis.

However with all the politics involved and specially now with the Brexit (so it is not anymore about Spain VS Gibraltar/UK, but about EU VS Gibraltar/UK), I doubt this will happen anytime soon even if there was an economic case once the tunnel opens.
 
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Channex757
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Re: No Europe services from Gibraltar?

Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:14 pm

Another issue is that any airline wanting to operate into GIB also has to maintain a pool of trained pilots similar to those for LCY. Gibraltar approach can be brutal at times and only experienced, trained crews are permitted to fly into there.

There are regular high speed coaches running to Malaga from Gibraltar as well, so the Rock is in the catchment for AGP. Malaga seems to attract all the High Net Worth corporate/private jets too for people with business on Gibraltar. There's a ramp full of them most of the time, for visitors to Marbella and the golf gin palaces as well as low-tax Gibraltar.

Current activity at GIB is between seven and ten commecial flights a day.
 
Bealine251
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Re: No Europe services from Gibraltar?

Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:16 pm

Don't know if it has anything to do with the runway in Gib apparently being owned by the UK Ministry of Defence and technically for use by the RAF. It's also known as RAF Gibraltar. Maybe this also has an influence on civil flights and who uses it.
 
jmmadrid
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Re: No Europe services from Gibraltar?

Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:40 pm

reidar76 wrote:
jmmadrid wrote:

It's about 1 1/2 hour by car to Malaga airport, which is a relatively large airport with intercontinental connections. Even closer is Jerez international, which is located close to Cádiz.

If you are going from Gibraltar to Madrid, I would take the high speed, very comfortable, AVE trains. It is about 2 hours and 20 minutes from Malaga to Madrid, and the trains runs every hour or so.



The topic that we are debating is the lack of flights from GIB to Europe.

No one is disputing that there are MANY MANY options to get to and from Gibraltar/Campo de Gibraltar, including other airports, high speed trains and ultimately the motorways. No one is disputing that the high speed trains that run from Malaga to Madrid are very comfortable.

The point SCQ83 and myself are trying to make is that GIB's catchment area is much larger than just the Rock's, including some wealthy places, and for the people who live in that catchment area, GIB would be way more convenient than other airports or trains. We are talking about a 5, 10, 15 minute drive compared to nearly 2 hours to AGP. Besides, being GIB such a small and friendly airport, you could probably go from your car to the gate in 15 minutes.

I asume that you haven't been to GIB and its surroundings, otherwise you wouldn´t be comparing flying out of GIB with travelling to Malaga to catch the train.
 
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ro1960
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Re: No Europe services from Gibraltar?

Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:08 pm

AT also serves Casablanca and Tangier from GIB. Like said by others all other attempts at linking GIB with Spain failed by lack of demand.
You may like my airport photos:
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PatrickZ80
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Re: No Europe services from Gibraltar?

Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:11 pm

From Wikipedia:

Since then, Spain successfully excluded Gibraltar from European wide de-regulation initiatives, such as the Single European Sky programme preventing direct links from Gibraltar to the rest of the European Union (except the United Kingdom), on the grounds that no regulation that somehow recognises the sovereignty of the United Kingdom over the Gibraltar peninsula may be implemented without a previous agreement on the airport.


I know Wikipedia is not a reliable source, but I think in this they're correct. Gibraltar is not part of the Single European Skies and therefor airlines that are not from either Spain or the UK would have to go through a lot of trouble to get to serve Gibraltar and mostly that's not worth the effort.
 
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ro1960
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Re: No Europe services from Gibraltar?

Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:59 pm

flyfresno wrote:

Not that this will lead to any appreciable changes in flights, but there is a new tunnel *under* the runway (almost a decade in the making) that is set to open next year. After that, no more driving across. So, if you have ever wanted to legally bike or drive across a runway that commercial aircraft regularly use, better get there soon!


Here's a sight of the terminal while crossing the runway on foot (October 2015):

Image
You may like my airport photos:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/aeroports

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