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PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:57 pm

n7371f wrote:
A contact at OO told me they're making "great" money to help bail out AAG..


Ah, yes. Another of your contacts with all the dirt on Alaska.

MIflyer12 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
They have time to fix this. Their reputation is still one of overall reliability so as long as they are subbing flying in rather than just canceling, it might help.


Objective facts are going to undermine that reputation for operational performance very quickly. From the June 2017 traffic release,

Alaska on time: 82.9%, down 3.6 points from a year earlier

Horizon on-time: 79.8%, down 4.8 points

Virgin America on-time: 67.1%, down 5.4 points


Absolutely. However, this is still fixable. If they use contract flying to help in the fall, those numbers should improve. It'll be interesting to see if they do, though.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
amcnd
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:19 am

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:45 pm

Looks like OO will add 5 more 175's in mid 2018. Announced on the quarterly call today.
 
n7371f
Posts: 1861
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:12 am

intotheair wrote:
n7371f wrote:
Several of the mothballed CR7's the OO flew for AS have been moved back into the TUS hangar for RTS. A couple of CRJ's in SkyWest liveries will also be transferred to the Pac NW. A contact at OO told me they're making "great" money to help bail out AAG.

Just atrocious management at QX and, honestly AS, for taking the Embraer order to the last second to squeeze concessions and leave QX with no wiggle room to deploy new aircraft. Heads should roll.


Has OO really not reassigned those CR7 frames to other carriers? How many of them are left?

It certainly is sad. I used to live in EUG and enjoyed all those Q400 flights up to PDX and SEA to connect onward. I lived in SFO before then, and I now live in LAX. AS is a great airline, and I want to see them succeed. As I understand the regional sector in US aviation, I thought AS was in someways ahead of the curve by having an in-house regional operation. But seeing all these issues now, I can't help but wonder if the legacies are in for these same problems down the road, especially considering that they are all pretty much maxed out on scope with all those sexy 76-seat RJs.


About 3 weeks ago there were 7 of them parked in temporary storage outside the TUS hangar.
 
n7371f
Posts: 1861
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Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:13 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
n7371f wrote:
A contact at OO told me they're making "great" money to help bail out AAG..


Ah, yes. Another of your contacts with all the dirt on Alaska.

MIflyer12 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
They have time to fix this. Their reputation is still one of overall reliability so as long as they are subbing flying in rather than just canceling, it might help.


Objective facts are going to undermine that reputation for operational performance very quickly. From the June 2017 traffic release,

Alaska on time: 82.9%, down 3.6 points from a year earlier

Horizon on-time: 79.8%, down 4.8 points

Virgin America on-time: 67.1%, down 5.4 points


Absolutely. However, this is still fixable. If they use contract flying to help in the fall, those numbers should improve. It'll be interesting to see if they do, though.


Haha. Yeah made up, again. You got me. Of course if you think remotely that OO isn't charging AS a premium (regardless of what I posted), then you have little understanding of the desperate situation on Angle Lake.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:22 am

n7371f wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
n7371f wrote:
A contact at OO told me they're making "great" money to help bail out AAG..


Ah, yes. Another of your contacts with all the dirt on Alaska.

MIflyer12 wrote:

Objective facts are going to undermine that reputation for operational performance very quickly. From the June 2017 traffic release,

Alaska on time: 82.9%, down 3.6 points from a year earlier

Horizon on-time: 79.8%, down 4.8 points

Virgin America on-time: 67.1%, down 5.4 points


Absolutely. However, this is still fixable. If they use contract flying to help in the fall, those numbers should improve. It'll be interesting to see if they do, though.


Haha. Yeah made up, again. You got me. Of course if you think remotely that OO isn't charging AS a premium (regardless of what I posted), then you have little understanding of the desperate situation on Angle Lake.


1. I didn't say "made up".
2. I didn't say it isn't costing them a pretty penny.
3. Waiting for the "My contact at American confirmed that Alaska was horrible to work with, and DP refused to work with them anymore."
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Oykie
Posts: 1987
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:21 am

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:43 am

WF has a pilot shortage and had to cancel 352 flights so far in July. While they do not fly Q300 they smaller DHC-8 and the Q400. I am sure they would like to have someone pilot their planes as a short term solution.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
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usxguy
Posts: 1902
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Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:50 am

Btw Alaska doesnt have scope restrictions for regional jets. Horizon flew Fokker 28s for Alaska many, many moons ago.
xx
 
n7371f
Posts: 1861
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:46 am

N227AG was OO owned by sold to an outfit in Manitoba. The remaining CR7's with Chester on the tail are AAG controlled, correct.

amcnd wrote:
[quote="

Has OO really not reassigned those CR7 frames to other carriers? How many of them are left?

.


No, they are the AG tail numbers that Alaska had control of.. 8 left that i can see.[/quote]
 
dc10lover
Topic Author
Posts: 1594
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:11 pm

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:53 am

amcnd wrote:
Looks like OO will add 5 more 175's in mid 2018. Announced on the quarterly call today.

I think separately Skywest and Horizon Air ordered E175's. Hope they have pilots for all the jets coming online.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
n7371f
Posts: 1861
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:21 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
n7371f wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

Ah, yes. Another of your contacts with all the dirt on Alaska.



Absolutely. However, this is still fixable. If they use contract flying to help in the fall, those numbers should improve. It'll be interesting to see if they do, though.


Haha. Yeah made up, again. You got me. Of course if you think remotely that OO isn't charging AS a premium (regardless of what I posted), then you have little understanding of the desperate situation on Angle Lake.


1. I didn't say "made up".
2. I didn't say it isn't costing them a pretty penny.
3. Waiting for the "My contact at American confirmed that Alaska was horrible to work with, and DP refused to work with them anymore."


Do your research. You're living in AS fantasy land if you don't believe the Richard Anderson story & Brad trying to save face.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:56 am

n7371f wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
n7371f wrote:

Haha. Yeah made up, again. You got me. Of course if you think remotely that OO isn't charging AS a premium (regardless of what I posted), then you have little understanding of the desperate situation on Angle Lake.


1. I didn't say "made up".
2. I didn't say it isn't costing them a pretty penny.
3. Waiting for the "My contact at American confirmed that Alaska was horrible to work with, and DP refused to work with them anymore."


Do your research. You're living in AS fantasy land if you don't believe the Richard Anderson story & Brad trying to save face.


AS fantasy land? You really like your drama, don't you?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
amcnd
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:19 am

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:58 pm

OO starts AS 700's operation tomorrow. Covering QX 175 routes. (That was quick!)
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:47 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
fortytwoeyes wrote:
What "major international airline" is still flying Q300s?


Air Canada and Qantas immediately come to mind.


Since they referenced "overseas" I believe in the article, I'm guessing QantasLink would be a good guess.

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Maverick623 wrote:

Generally this is taken care of by a contract that has the airline cover the costs as a "loan" to the pilot, and the pilot has to stay employed for X number of years, or else pay back the costs.


Ah yes, training contracts, the sure sign of a shit employer. If they throw a training contract on it, it's only going to make their situation worse.


These guys won't be getting jobs anywhere due to their hours. If Alaska says "We'll get you flying NOW and cover those costs IF you work for us X number of years", I see nothing wrong with that. I have a friend who is a doctor - she signed a contract to live in a remote village in Alaska for four years in exchange for her tuition expenses. She didn't have to do it, but it was a good fit for her so she did. Who cares? It's the predicament that AS is in, so if they are getting creative to get them out of it, so be it.



We Must be missing something, I just read the hours were an FAA MANDATE!! NO USA Airline gets around it. If you need Pilots?
Then they Have to meet the minimum and an Airline has NO say in the matter! throwing More Money at them is not going to make the matter better .
Even if pilots are leaving the military, they have to have the minimums. If they HAVE the required hours??
They Might not work for Horizon Anyway!! Especially if they can find a job flying Mainline equipment for equivalent salary.
Years ago I had to work my way up as a mechanic through the Military, commuters, and night freight until I could get on with a major. And? it took me some years (about 7)
My nephew just got hired at Delta and he HAS no Experience other than military. So? Times have changed..
The Regional Airlines will BE "jumping through hoops" until the next downturn that allows them to hire more experienced pilots off the street 'Till then?
"Got to Do what you Got to DO"!
 
717atOGG
Posts: 896
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:41 am

amcnd wrote:
OO starts AS 700's operation tomorrow. Covering QX 175 routes. (That was quick!)

Just out of curiosity, will the 700s be painted in the new Alaska livery? I doubt it, but it would look pretty nice in my mind, and the 1992-2015 livery didn't really suit them very well IMO.
A320/321, A332, 712, 73G/8/9ER, 744, 752/3, E145, E175, CR9
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:52 am

This is a dumb question, but why does Horizon Air still exist? Why wasn't it simply absorbed into Alaska or rebranded as "Alaska Express" or something like that?
 
ucdtim17
Posts: 627
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:38 pm

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:01 am

amcnd wrote:
OO starts AS 700's operation tomorrow. Covering QX 175 routes. (That was quick!)


What routes?
 
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TransWorldOne
Posts: 364
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 12:13 am

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:33 am

amcnd wrote:
OO starts AS 700's operation tomorrow. Covering QX 175 routes. (That was quick!)


That's quite a downgrade in terms of equipment (no first class, no premium economy, no wifi, no power ports, no hot food, only 1 lavatory, etc.), but it's better than a canceled flight I guess? I had assumed (yes, I know) that these frames were being brought in to cover Q400 flying, not E175 flying.
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 5341
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:29 am

Yes...QX is not having issues with the E-175 flights. The CRJ-700's are coming in the help with the Q400 flights.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:17 am

ADrum23 wrote:
This is a dumb question, but why does Horizon Air still exist? Why wasn't it simply absorbed into Alaska or rebranded as "Alaska Express" or something like that?


I believe they are being rebranded this fall. Still 'Horizon" but more in line with the Alaska branding. The aircraft say Alaska Horizon while the SkyWest aircraft say Alaska SkyWest. That's just the approach they're taking I guess.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:23 am

ADrum23 wrote:
This is a dumb question, but why does Horizon Air still exist? Why wasn't it simply absorbed into Alaska or rebranded as "Alaska Express" or something like that?


Here is a current example. It actually looks about as much "Alaska" as you can get while still noting the actual operator.

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Alaska-A ... LR/4487941
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
amcnd
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:19 am

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:49 pm

wedgetail737 wrote:
Yes...QX is not having issues with the E-175 flights. The CRJ-700's are coming in the help with the Q400 flights.



SEA-ONT is a Q route???(those are listed QX175 routes) Also today is SEA-FAT. In the past OO covering was the "Milk run" SEA-PDX..

Tomorrow is the same flights.
 
dc10lover
Topic Author
Posts: 1594
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Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:21 pm

wedgetail737 wrote:
Yes...QX is not having issues with the E-175 flights. The CRJ-700's are coming in the help with the Q400 flights.

Seattle to Reno should be jet service.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 5341
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:26 pm

amcnd wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
Yes...QX is not having issues with the E-175 flights. The CRJ-700's are coming in the help with the Q400 flights.



SEA-ONT is a Q route???(those are listed QX175 routes) Also today is SEA-FAT. In the past OO covering was the "Milk run" SEA-PDX..

Tomorrow is the same flights.


Interesting. I would have thought the SkyWest 700's would be working the flights to GEG and BOI, as well as the SEA-PDX runs. It's weird that they would fly them to ONT or FAT.
 
User avatar
usxguy
Posts: 1902
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Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:40 pm

actually I'm hearing Horizon is having a FEW issues with the E175s as well. It was reported on Flyertalk that last week only 2 of the 6 QX E175s were flying that day.
xx
 
jonair8
Posts: 107
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:10 am

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:52 pm

From what I understand, OO is reactivating former AS CR7s that were stored. They eventually will cover routes like SEA-GEG, BOI, PDX, etc. For now, one OO E75 is being used to cover a QX E75, and one OO CR7 is being used to cover a QX E75. A lot of the times, OO is even covering former routes they used to have that were switched over to QX, like SEA-COS, one of the SEA-FAT flights, and PDX-STL. Doesn't help that AS planned on downgrading a bunch of routes from 737s to QX E75s for July and August, such as SEA-ONT. OO is also planning on deploying at least one house colored CRJ-200 to help with these issues as well.
 
ucdtim17
Posts: 627
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:38 pm

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:58 pm

dc10lover wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
Yes...QX is not having issues with the E-175 flights. The CRJ-700's are coming in the help with the Q400 flights.

Seattle to Reno should be jet service.


All the long Q400 routes that most people think should be jet service seem to be at the back of the line for E175 service. Perhaps next year when they start returning Q400s. They prioritized expansion over a. flying their existing routes and b. putting appropriate planes on SEA-RNO, SEA-STS, PDX-OAK, PDX-SMF, etc. I guess they figure if people have tolerated the Q's to date on those routes they can tolerate another year. New customers are more important than existing customers (something we also saw in the efforts to woo VX elites and newcomers while AS elites have been totally ignored).
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:50 pm

ucdtim17 wrote:
dc10lover wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
Yes...QX is not having issues with the E-175 flights. The CRJ-700's are coming in the help with the Q400 flights.

Seattle to Reno should be jet service.


All the long Q400 routes that most people think should be jet service seem to be at the back of the line for E175 service. Perhaps next year when they start returning Q400s. They prioritized expansion over a. flying their existing routes and b. putting appropriate planes on SEA-RNO, SEA-STS, PDX-OAK, PDX-SMF, etc. I guess they figure if people have tolerated the Q's to date on those routes they can tolerate another year. New customers are more important than existing customers (something we also saw in the efforts to woo VX elites and newcomers while AS elites have been totally ignored).


I'd argue that adding routes is also about retaining existing customers rather than lose them to Delta (for example). I'm sure that all things being equal, they'd prefer to put the jets on the longer flights. All things aren't equal, though. Delta is pushing them into expansion mode and the Horizon hiring issues are holding them back from doing more than they already are. It's just going to take time to mesh everything out.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
chrisair
Posts: 2171
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2000 11:32 pm

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:28 pm

ucdtim17 wrote:
I guess they figure if people have tolerated the Q's to date on those routes they can tolerate another year. New customers are more important than existing customers (something we also saw in the efforts to woo VX elites and newcomers while AS elites have been totally ignored).


Kind of hard to woo new customers, and for existing customers to "tolerate [the Qs for] another year," when they're cancelling Q400 flights left and right and not just cancelling them for a few weeks--these disappear for months sometimes with very little notice.
 
ucdtim17
Posts: 627
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:38 pm

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:32 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
ucdtim17 wrote:
dc10lover wrote:
Seattle to Reno should be jet service.


All the long Q400 routes that most people think should be jet service seem to be at the back of the line for E175 service. Perhaps next year when they start returning Q400s. They prioritized expansion over a. flying their existing routes and b. putting appropriate planes on SEA-RNO, SEA-STS, PDX-OAK, PDX-SMF, etc. I guess they figure if people have tolerated the Q's to date on those routes they can tolerate another year. New customers are more important than existing customers (something we also saw in the efforts to woo VX elites and newcomers while AS elites have been totally ignored).


I'd argue that adding routes is also about retaining existing customers rather than lose them to Delta (for example). I'm sure that all things being equal, they'd prefer to put the jets on the longer flights. All things aren't equal, though. Delta is pushing them into expansion mode and the Horizon hiring issues are holding them back from doing more than they already are. It's just going to take time to mesh everything out.


Well it's some combo of both obviously. Existing customers that are happy to have a new PDX-JFK flight are still going to be pissed when their PDX-SMF flights keep getting cancelled.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:23 pm

ucdtim17 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
ucdtim17 wrote:

All the long Q400 routes that most people think should be jet service seem to be at the back of the line for E175 service. Perhaps next year when they start returning Q400s. They prioritized expansion over a. flying their existing routes and b. putting appropriate planes on SEA-RNO, SEA-STS, PDX-OAK, PDX-SMF, etc. I guess they figure if people have tolerated the Q's to date on those routes they can tolerate another year. New customers are more important than existing customers (something we also saw in the efforts to woo VX elites and newcomers while AS elites have been totally ignored).


I'd argue that adding routes is also about retaining existing customers rather than lose them to Delta (for example). I'm sure that all things being equal, they'd prefer to put the jets on the longer flights. All things aren't equal, though. Delta is pushing them into expansion mode and the Horizon hiring issues are holding them back from doing more than they already are. It's just going to take time to mesh everything out.


Well it's some combo of both obviously. Existing customers that are happy to have a new PDX-JFK flight are still going to be pissed when their PDX-SMF flights keep getting cancelled.


Absolutely. Hopefully, though, the addition of the OO flying will remedy a good portion of that problem.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
PMUA787
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:35 pm

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:41 pm

Here is an idea. How about an ab-intio program for folks who have no hours but have a lot of experience in the airline and aviation field and are willing to learn. I would love to become a pilot but the costs are just too high and you would be pushing up the daisies and saddling the debt on your heirs before you get any ROI on the investment.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5062
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:00 pm

PMUA787 wrote:
Here is an idea. How about an ab-intio program for folks who have no hours but have a lot of experience in the airline and aviation field and are willing to learn. I would love to become a pilot but the costs are just too high and you would be pushing up the daisies and saddling the debt on your heirs before you get any ROI on the investment.

You'd have to change the laws first. You'd have to fly a 172 around for 1500 hours before your first FO flight which is prohibitive.
 
amcnd
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:19 am

Re: Horizon Air scheduling havoc will continue into the fall

Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:43 pm

The problem will be ongoing.. the guys/gals today have a bright future at the majors waiting.. gone are the days were you stayed 10-15 years at the regionals before moving on.. not to mention the lateral moves between regionals going on right now..

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