Geoff1947
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:33 am

This is the confirmation that Virgin Atlantic is finished as an independent airline, although that's been clear since the Delta takeover. They have very few assets apart from Heathrow slots. They don't even own the brand.

Geoff
 
oldannyboy
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:50 am

Brokkenpiloot wrote:
I always wondered what DL/Skyteam saw in VS. They barely add any cities to the SkyTeam-network they don't already serve. Is it just for the London O&D market?


Absolutely, yes. It's a very rich and prestigious market...
 
Bongodog1964
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:06 am

theginge wrote:
So Willie Walsh may be getting nearer to being right almost 5 years ago:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/news ... rvive.html


Oh please, let it be so.
 
jomur
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys a significant stake in Virgin Atlantic

Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:13 am

KLDC10 wrote:
SelseyBill wrote:
EddieDude wrote:
It does not work like that. AF-KL Group having DL and MU as minority shareholders does not (or should not) change its status as an entity controlled by European Union investors. In this sense, VS will continue to be 49% owned by foreign investors (i.e., by DL).


If it were my decision; post Brexit, I would be putting a cap of 24% ownership by American companies of British companies in the aviation sector, and telling DL to divest 25%;

Seems only fair to me; as a British company would not be permitted to purchase more than 24% of any US carrier.


I doubt that any government would seek to apply a law like that retroactively. It could be written in such a way that would require any future share sales to work towards an ownership cap, but writing a law which forces a company to sell shares which they have legally already bought would leave business leaders with a sour taste in their mouths.



Happens all the time. It's happened in the UK in the past when private companies have been nationalised against the owners wishes so not a big problem as you think.
 
Jerry123
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:26 am

AirbusA322 wrote:
Does anyone see the VS brand going in the medium term? We saw what happened over at VX so can't be ruled out.

Virgin Australia could be the last Virgin standing.

And what would they replace it with? Delta Airlines UK?
 
AirbusA322
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:34 am

Jerry123 wrote:
AirbusA322 wrote:
Does anyone see the VS brand going in the medium term? We saw what happened over at VX so can't be ruled out.

Virgin Australia could be the last Virgin standing.

And what would they replace it with? Delta Airlines UK?


V Atlantic could be a clever workaround.

Remember back to when Virgin Aus started 77W ops last decade they called that arm 'V Australia'. They didn't need to pay royalties to the Virgin group for that airline. Everyone knew it was still Virgin.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... go.svg.png
 
Geoff1947
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:37 am

Jerry123 wrote:
AirbusA322 wrote:
Does anyone see the VS brand going in the medium term? We saw what happened over at VX so can't be ruled out.

Virgin Australia could be the last Virgin standing.

And what would they replace it with? Delta Airlines UK?


A pretty straightforward commercial decision. How much is the Virgin brand worth and how much does Branson want paying for continued use ?

Geoff
 
global1
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:51 am

If the speculation of Delta and Jet Airways having discussions about Delta taking an equity stake in Jet come to fruition, might Jet be the next JV partner and Skyteam member?
When you factor in joint ventures with KE, Am, and Virgin Austtralia and look ahead to growing cooperation with GOL and AR, Delta's scope is truly impressive.
 
Arion640
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:26 pm

Geoff1947 wrote:
Jerry123 wrote:
AirbusA322 wrote:
Does anyone see the VS brand going in the medium term? We saw what happened over at VX so can't be ruled out.

Virgin Australia could be the last Virgin standing.

And what would they replace it with? Delta Airlines UK?


A pretty straightforward commercial decision. How much is the Virgin brand worth and how much does Branson want paying for continued use ?

Geoff


A fair bit, probably more so on the disney run to MCO mind. I know heaps of people that have visited florida by going on Virgin.
223 319 320 321 333 346 359 388 733 73G 738 744 752 753 763 764 772 77E 773 77W 788 789 MD83 E145 E175 E195 RJ85 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75

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jagraham
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:15 pm

From https://qz.com/35543/why-delta-air-line ... -heathrow/
November 2012

The allocations in the charts below are the weekly slot designations for airlines and alliances at Heathrow for winter 2012-2013, and the numbers show that Delta, the largest U.S.-based carrier, has a measly 28 slots at the airport, a vital gateway to the rest of Europe, Asia and the Middle East.

Those 28 slots for Delta amount to a minuscule .30% (i.e. less than 1%) of the 9,296 slots at the airport, while British Airways, which rules the roost at Heathrow, commands 4,902 (52.7%).

Virgin Atlantic doesn’t belong to any of the big three airline alliances, and the airline commands a coveted 304 slots (3.3%) at Heathrow, and Delta lusts for access to them.

This article also says

British Airways’ dominance of Heathrow is great news for Oneworld partner and Delta competitor American Airlines, which has 200 (2.2%) Heathrow slots for the upcoming winter.

With 210 slots at Heathrow, United Airlines has a few more slots than American, but United doesn’t have a Star Alliance partner that can rival British Airways’ hold at Heathrow — actually, no one does.
 
jagraham
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:16 pm

An interesting side note from the same November 2012 article

There is speculation that Delta’s Skyteam partner, Air France-KLM, would jump into any Virgin ownership restructuring because Delta, as a U.S. carrier, is barred from taking a majority equity position in Virgin. Delta and and Air France-KLM already conduct some joint operations at Heathrow.

However, Air France-KLM indicates it is not currently involved in the discussions with Virgin, and Virgin boss Richard Branson says he has no intention of giving up control of his baby.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My how times change!
 
slinky09
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:34 pm

I am struggling to make sense of this strategically other than that having all four airlines in the JV means there's a way for DL to get a better return on revenues and its investments. It can't be about AF / KLM connectivity to VS at Heathrow given the terminal layout and really most of VS's customers are O&D. It' can't be for AF / KLM to get their hands on more slots since DL and VS have already pivoted VS heavily toward the US market from its more global (albeit limited) past. It can't be to drive increased traffic to AF / KLM. Nor do I think that it's about DL getting more control over VS, from what I hear they pretty much run the show anyway. Perhaps it's more to do with the rules on JV revenues and returns, or even perhaps it's a way for DL to invest in VS and let it acquire some more Heathrow slots to grow?
 
Jetty
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:37 pm

slinky09 wrote:
perhaps it's a way for DL to invest in VS and let it acquire some more Heathrow slots to grow?

This isn't an option as VS doesn't get any cash from the deal; DL's cash flows to AF/KL and Branson.
 
slinky09
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:43 pm

Jetty wrote:
slinky09 wrote:
perhaps it's a way for DL to invest in VS and let it acquire some more Heathrow slots to grow?

This isn't an option as VS doesn't get any cash from the deal; DL's cash flows to AF/KL and Branson.


Of course, I stand corrected.
 
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Aesma
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:48 pm

I'm listening to a French business radio and in the news section about this the journalist ended up by wondering if long term AF wouldn't become US owned or Chinese owned.

I guess they don't know about ownership rules, or they think these rules will not last.

I found it funny regardless, just when another company is being nationalized (STX France).
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
jbs2886
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:54 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
I don't get it (happens). Can someone please explain the motivation for this?

Delta: They own enough of Air France that it would hurt to lose the investment, but not enough to influence/control Air France? Probably no investment in Air France would control Air France as long as it's governed by the French government and run by French unions. Air France seems like the sort of stock Delta would *not* want to own for a simple investment, and it seems that 10% might not be enough to influence Air France.

AF: Buying a junior-sized portion of an airline that's *sort of* controlled by Delta does not buy you control of Virgin. Selling 10% of your self to Delta .. AF could be business partners with Delta without selling any portion of itself.


Owning a sizable minority share in any company is considered influential. DL would just have to get a few other large shareholders on board with a proposal to get what they wanted - the threat of their large share is often enough to influence. DL, I can't remember, also probably gets a Board seat. That is influence, a lot of influence.

AF gets a big cash influx to pay down debt or spend (buying Virgin Atlantic shares). Its not a matter of business partners, its a matter of cash.
 
jbs2886
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:55 pm

Jetty wrote:
slinky09 wrote:
perhaps it's a way for DL to invest in VS and let it acquire some more Heathrow slots to grow?

This isn't an option as VS doesn't get any cash from the deal; DL's cash flows to AF/KL and Branson.


Yes, there are a number of posters assuming the cash somehow goes to VS and/or DL. Nope, it goes to Branson. Nothing changes for VS.
 
Geoff1947
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:00 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Geoff1947 wrote:
Jerry123 wrote:
And what would they replace it with? Delta Airlines UK?


A pretty straightforward commercial decision. How much is the Virgin brand worth and how much does Branson want paying for continued use ?

Geoff


A fair bit, probably more so on the disney run to MCO mind. I know heaps of people that have visited florida by going on Virgin.


Most of this business comes through Virgin Holidays , they could easily continue this on other airlines.

Geoff
 
ldvaviation
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:20 pm

jagraham wrote:
From https://qz.com/35543/why-delta-air-line ... -heathrow/
November 2012

The allocations in the charts below are the weekly slot designations for airlines and alliances at Heathrow for winter 2012-2013, and the numbers show that Delta, the largest U.S.-based carrier, has a measly 28 slots at the airport, a vital gateway to the rest of Europe, Asia and the Middle East.

Those 28 slots for Delta amount to a minuscule .30% (i.e. less than 1%) of the 9,296 slots at the airport, while British Airways, which rules the roost at Heathrow, commands 4,902 (52.7%).

Virgin Atlantic doesn’t belong to any of the big three airline alliances, and the airline commands a coveted 304 slots (3.3%) at Heathrow, and Delta lusts for access to them.

This article also says

British Airways’ dominance of Heathrow is great news for Oneworld partner and Delta competitor American Airlines, which has 200 (2.2%) Heathrow slots for the upcoming winter.

With 210 slots at Heathrow, United Airlines has a few more slots than American, but United doesn’t have a Star Alliance partner that can rival British Airways’ hold at Heathrow — actually, no one does.


Anyone have the updated numbers?

American has more slots now. (If I remember correctly, they added 1 slot pair (14 total) from US Airways and 4 slot pairs (56 total) from other purchases.

Has United acquired more slots?

Didn't Delta purchase some slots from AirFrance?
 
jbs2886
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:23 pm

One interesting point from the AF-KLM presentation today is that the new Transatlantic JV will have the capability to add "associate" members to the JV.
 
Andy33
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:24 pm

ldvaviation wrote:
jagraham wrote:
From https://qz.com/35543/why-delta-air-line ... -heathrow/
November 2012

The allocations in the charts below are the weekly slot designations for airlines and alliances at Heathrow for winter 2012-2013, and the numbers show that Delta, the largest U.S.-based carrier, has a measly 28 slots at the airport, a vital gateway to the rest of Europe, Asia and the Middle East.

Those 28 slots for Delta amount to a minuscule .30% (i.e. less than 1%) of the 9,296 slots at the airport, while British Airways, which rules the roost at Heathrow, commands 4,902 (52.7%).

Virgin Atlantic doesn’t belong to any of the big three airline alliances, and the airline commands a coveted 304 slots (3.3%) at Heathrow, and Delta lusts for access to them.

This article also says

British Airways’ dominance of Heathrow is great news for Oneworld partner and Delta competitor American Airlines, which has 200 (2.2%) Heathrow slots for the upcoming winter.

With 210 slots at Heathrow, United Airlines has a few more slots than American, but United doesn’t have a Star Alliance partner that can rival British Airways’ hold at Heathrow — actually, no one does.


Anyone have the updated numbers?

American has more slots now. (If I remember correctly, they added 1 slot pair (14 total) from US Airways and 4 slot pairs (56 total) from other purchases.

Has United acquired more slots?

Didn't Delta purchase some slots from AirFrance?

This is the current data, from the slot controllers themselves:
https://www.acl-uk.org/wp-content/uploa ... eport1.pdf
Look at page 3, and remember that these are air traffic movements, count one for landings and one for takeoffs, so two for a service.
At the start of S17:
AA had 280 (2.91%)
AF+KL had 252 (2.6%)
BA had 4963 (51.5%) and IAG airlines all together had 5435 (56.4%)
DL had 152 (1.6%)
UA had 238 (2.5%)
VS had 322 (3.3%)
LH Group had 746 (7.7%)
Since the document was drawn up there will have been further changes, slot leases for example won't show up until the W17 document is released. Slot sales are usually announced.
 
jagraham
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:34 pm

Andy33 wrote:
ldvaviation wrote:
jagraham wrote:
From https://qz.com/35543/why-delta-air-line ... -heathrow/
November 2012

The allocations in the charts below are the weekly slot designations for airlines and alliances at Heathrow for winter 2012-2013, and the numbers show that Delta, the largest U.S.-based carrier, has a measly 28 slots at the airport, a vital gateway to the rest of Europe, Asia and the Middle East.

Those 28 slots for Delta amount to a minuscule .30% (i.e. less than 1%) of the 9,296 slots at the airport, while British Airways, which rules the roost at Heathrow, commands 4,902 (52.7%).

Virgin Atlantic doesn’t belong to any of the big three airline alliances, and the airline commands a coveted 304 slots (3.3%) at Heathrow, and Delta lusts for access to them.

This article also says

British Airways’ dominance of Heathrow is great news for Oneworld partner and Delta competitor American Airlines, which has 200 (2.2%) Heathrow slots for the upcoming winter.

With 210 slots at Heathrow, United Airlines has a few more slots than American, but United doesn’t have a Star Alliance partner that can rival British Airways’ hold at Heathrow — actually, no one does.


Anyone have the updated numbers?

American has more slots now. (If I remember correctly, they added 1 slot pair (14 total) from US Airways and 4 slot pairs (56 total) from other purchases.

Has United acquired more slots?

Didn't Delta purchase some slots from AirFrance?

This is the current data, from the slot controllers themselves:
https://www.acl-uk.org/wp-content/uploa ... eport1.pdf
Look at page 3, and remember that these are air traffic movements, count one for landings and one for takeoffs, so two for a service.
At the start of S17:
AA had 280 (2.91%)
AF+KL had 252 (2.6%)
BA had 4963 (51.5%) and IAG airlines all together had 5435 (56.4%)
DL had 152 (1.6%)
UA had 238 (2.5%)
VS had 322 (3.3%)
LH Group had 746 (7.7%)
Since the document was drawn up there will have been further changes, slot leases for example won't show up until the W17 document is released. Slot sales are usually announced.


Thanks for the updated info :D

Delta is still low man on the totem pole without VS slots.
 
raylee67
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:36 pm

So this is a massive equity link-up between SkyTeam carriers:
Delta owns 49% of VS
Delta owns 10% of AF/KLM
Delta owns 2% of MU
Delta owns 49% of AM
AF/KLM owns 31% of VS
MU owns 10% of AF/KLM

Separately, KE owns 49% of OK
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 351 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
Arion640
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:52 pm

Geoff1947 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Geoff1947 wrote:

A pretty straightforward commercial decision. How much is the Virgin brand worth and how much does Branson want paying for continued use ?

Geoff


A fair bit, probably more so on the disney run to MCO mind. I know heaps of people that have visited florida by going on Virgin.


Most of this business comes through Virgin Holidays , they could easily continue this on other airlines.

Geoff


True, but I still can't see them discontinuing the virgin brand name in medium to shorter long term. What would they replace it with? They are in a good position to be a viable competitor to BA if they took advantage of the crap position BA are in with the press at the minute, and provide more for the customer instead of cutting everything to the bare minimum.
223 319 320 321 333 346 359 388 733 73G 738 744 752 753 763 764 772 77E 773 77W 788 789 MD83 E145 E175 E195 RJ85 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75

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Jetty
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:07 pm

raylee67 wrote:
Delta owns 49% of VS
Delta owns 10% of AF/KLM
Delta owns 2% of MU
Delta owns 49% of AM
AF/KLM owns 31% of VS
MU owns 10% of AF/KLM

Separately, KE owns 49% of OK

KL owns 26% of KQ (will become 14%)
 
jbs2886
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:13 pm

Jetty wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
Delta owns 49% of VS
Delta owns 10% of AF/KLM
Delta owns 2% of MU
Delta owns 49% of AM
AF/KLM owns 31% of VS
MU owns 10% of AF/KLM

Separately, KE owns 49% of OK

KL owns 26% of KQ (will become 14%)


DL owns 3.2% of MU, not 2%. Also, I don't think DL owns 49% of AM yet, but it will before the end of the year.

Also, since DL already owns a small share in AF/KLM, will they own more than 10%, not sure if anyone knows.
 
dmorbust
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:02 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Also, I don't think DL owns 49% of AM yet, but it will before the end of the year.


Delta informed Aeromexico three days ago that they intend to exercise their options to get to 49%, so it is only a matter of time: https://aeromexico.com/cms/sites/defaul ... _ENG_0.pdf

This article makes it sound like the transaction actually already happened: http://t21.com.mx/aereo/2017/07/26/delt ... aeromexico
 
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OA412
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:03 pm

ldvaviation wrote:
Anyone have the updated numbers?

American has more slots now. (If I remember correctly, they added 1 slot pair (14 total) from US Airways and 4 slot pairs (56 total) from other purchases.

Has United acquired more slots?

Didn't Delta purchase some slots from AirFrance?

I don't recall hearing that UA purchased additional slots. I know DL did. I believe some came from AF/KL and some from AZ.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
factsonly
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:10 pm

VS11 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Interesting deal, wonder how this will work out. Will they make Virgin Atlantic more of a network carrier, including building up a European network again?


Why would that be necessary? AF/KL have a pretty extensive network in Europe which can be tapped from LHR. As long as all flights are on the the same ticket, it is part of the JV. JFK-CDG whether via LHR, via AMS, direct on DL or AF should be "the same" under the JV. That's the whole point.


This deal has two sides to it.

1. VS gains commercial sales strength by linking its UK hubs at LHR, LGW & MAN through AF/KL to many worldwide destinations not served by VS, plus expect VS codeshares from the UK regions to AMS/CDG and beyond where possible.

2. AF/KL gain commercial sales strength by adding the VS network from LHR/LGW and MAN (non-stop UK-TATL particularly) to their extensive worldwide network from LON & the UK regions. Remember AF/KL already codeshare on all DL services ex.EDI/GLA/LHR/MAN.

Combined AF/KL/DL/VS are able to sell:

- ABZ -> worldwide via AMS & CDG
- INV -> worldwide via AMS
- EDI -> TATL nonstop DL + worldwide via AMS & CDG
- GLA -> TATL nonstop DL + worldwide via AMS & CDG
- BHD -> worldwide via AMS
- NCL -> worldwide via AMS
- LBA -> worldwide via AMS
- MME -> worldwide via AMS
- HUY -> worldwide via AMS
- MAN -> TATL nonstop DL/VS + worldwide via AMS & CDG
- NWI -> worldwide via AMS
- BHX - worldwide via AMS & CDG
- CWL -> worldwide via AMS
- BRS -> worldwide via AMS
- SOU -> worldwide via AMS
- LHR -> TATL nonstop DL/VS + worldwide via AMS & CDG
- LGW -> TATL nonstop VS + (KL has already talked about opening AMS-LGW)
- LCY -> worldwide via AMS

This is one of the strongest UK network offerings available to any global customer.
 
skipness1E
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:29 pm

Selling INV-AMS on KLM to long haul has nothing to do with VS, makes zero difference. They're already codesharing on a JV with Delta, that's the strenght in their core market, not having a VS codeshare on two points unconnected to VS network.

Delta came late to LHR, AA and UA came in 1991, DL had to wait til 2008, hence they built their slot holding from zero. Firstly it's a decent portfolio given the circunstances and secondly, given the metal neutrality of DL/VS, it's way bigger than UA but behind BA/AA.

The VS brand could easily be wound down over time and what remained moved to LGW...... Delta (UK) would make more sense, Virgin is a dated brand nowadays, even at the end SRB was blaming BA for not handing over enough slots to Virgin.
 
EddieDude
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:41 pm

Andy33 wrote:
There is no DL-VS-AF-KL-AZ TATL alliance. I'm sure the ownership move this thread is discussing is a prelude to one, but at the moment there are two separate Joint Ventures: DL-VS, and DL-AF-KL-AZ. Because these are joint ventures any change to them, like merging them together, is subject to regulatory approval in both Europe and the USA. It's most unlikely any attempt to do this will happen until the fate of Alitalia becomes clear, since there's a real possibility it will cease to exist at the end of summer, or become controlled by airlines who have no interest in this particular Joint Venture.

Yes, i know. This is an announcement of a combination that is subject to regulatory approval (i.e., the closing has not happened yet), but I think we can all assume that the regulatory approvals will be obtained and the combination of the two alliances will happen.
With respect to AZ's survival chances, I doubt the players in this multi-party transaction will wait until the fate of AZ is firmly decided. If AZ makes it, then good, AZ will remain part of the enlarged JV unless as you say it is acquired by a competitor that pulls it away from SkyTeam. If AZ does not make it, any wait would be just a loss of time. I expect the formalities with governmental agencies seeking the necessary approvals will proceed swiftly without regard to what is definitely a protracted process involving AZ the result of which would have a very limited impact on what the enlarged JV will look like.

Andy33 wrote:
For Jet Airways to join an enlarged TATL joint venture would require regulatory approval in the USA, Europe, and India (its country of registration). So far no Indian airline belongs to a Joint Venture (as opposed to alliances). Maybe posters based in India could tell us whether this is even possible under Indian competition law, and if it is, what sort of safeguards/concessions regulators might require. Remember the existing TATL JVs came at a regulatory price

True, but Jet was already invited by DL, AF and KL to join them in their TATL several years ago. I am sure everybody did their homework back then before making a proposal that was not feasible under applicable law. Back at the time, Jet was trying to join Star, so nothing came out of that invitation. I think this time, things will move much faster and I am sure there are lots of things being done with and by Jet simultaneously with this MU-DL-AF-KL transaction.
Upcoming flights:
May: AM MEX-CUN 73H (Y), AM CUN-MEX 73W (Y).
August: KL MEX-AMS 74M (J), KQ AMS-NBO 788 (J).
 
anstar
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:51 pm

Geoff1947 wrote:
This is the confirmation that Virgin Atlantic is finished as an independent airline, although that's been clear since the Delta takeover. They have very few assets apart from Heathrow slots. They don't even own the brand.

Geoff


I wouldnt even consider the LHR slots to be assets anymore as the have already borrowed against them

http://news.sky.com/story/virgin-mortga ... l-10337873
 
factsonly
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:35 pm

skipness1E wrote:
Selling INV-AMS on KLM to long haul has nothing to do with VS, makes zero difference. They're already codesharing on a JV with Delta, that's the strenght in their core market, not having a VS codeshare on two points unconnected to VS network.



A very one-sided view as to the nature of this deal. The impact goes way beyond TATL markets, as VS customers gain a worldwide network from everywhere in the UK.

- The VS customer (where ever they reside) gain worldwide network options, collecting and redeeming miles on AF/KL/DL/VS from LON and many UK regions.
- Existing AF/KL customers in the UK stand to gain from a new TATL network from LHR/LGW/MAN.

This deal strengthens all parties, together AF/DL/KL/VS will offer a competitive global network to UK corporate accounts.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:56 pm

Is the VS stake directly controlled by the Air France-KLM groups as a whole, not as part of KLM or Air France?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Jetty
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:01 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Is the VS stake directly controlled by the Air France-KLM groups as a whole, not as part of KLM or Air France?

Yes
 
Kilopond
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:23 pm

With that system of mutual cross-ownerships Delta Air Lines might try to rescue "SkyTeam" from the very sorry destiny of "Oneworld" (or whatever has remained from that construction). That "Oneworld" parody of an "alliance" consists of hostile enemies who are just formally bound together. But in real life they just happily waste any potential synergies and demonstrate how NOT to do business.
 
panamair
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:04 pm

raylee67 wrote:
So this is a massive equity link-up between SkyTeam carriers:
Delta owns 49% of VS
Delta owns 10% of AF/KLM
Delta owns 2% of MU
Delta owns 49% of AM
AF/KLM owns 31% of VS
MU owns 10% of AF/KLM

Separately, KE owns 49% of OK


Though VS is not in Skyteam (and there's no indication so far that it will eventually be either). In addition, both Delta and AF-KLM also have stakes in GOL. Delta has 9.5% of GOL while AF-KL own 1.5%.

From a management perspective, senior executives have been rotating around these players as well. For example,

Mike Medeiros from Delta (last position was VP Seattle) is now COO of AM.
Corneel Koster formerly AM's COO is now SVP EMEAI (Europe, Middle East, Africa, India) at Delta (before AM, he was at AF-KL and then VS)
Vinay Dube previously SVP-Asia/Pacific at Delta, is now CEO of Jet Airways. At Delta he played a big part in DL's MU stake, and was also the Delta observer on the MU board.

It wouldn't surprise me if DL, AF-KL and MU all found some way to invest in 9W in the future...
 
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kitplane01
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:42 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
I don't get it (happens). Can someone please explain the motivation for this?

Delta: They own enough of Air France that it would hurt to lose the investment, but not enough to influence/control Air France? Probably no investment in Air France would control Air France as long as it's governed by the French government and run by French unions. Air France seems like the sort of stock Delta would *not* want to own for a simple investment, and it seems that 10% might not be enough to influence Air France.

AF: Buying a junior-sized portion of an airline that's *sort of* controlled by Delta does not buy you control of Virgin. Selling 10% of your self to Delta .. AF could be business partners with Delta without selling any portion of itself.


Owning a sizable minority share in any company is considered influential. DL would just have to get a few other large shareholders on board with a proposal to get what they wanted - the threat of their large share is often enough to influence. DL, I can't remember, also probably gets a Board seat. That is influence, a lot of influence.

AF gets a big cash influx to pay down debt or spend (buying Virgin Atlantic shares). Its not a matter of business partners, its a matter of cash.


I'm politely sorry, but I think you're wrong.

If you think this deal helps Delta get influence at Virgin ... Delta already had 49.9% of the stock. Delta plus any other investor together make a majority. No increase in influence.

If you think this deal helps AF get influence at Virgin ... Delta already has 49.9% of the stock. Unless *every* other investor sides against Delta, Delta's position wins. AF gets no additional influence over Virgin.

Further, AF does not get any cash. The cash they get goes toward buying Virgin stock (which I still don't get why they want it).
 
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kitplane01
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:46 pm

factsonly wrote:
VS11 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Interesting deal, wonder how this will work out. Will they make Virgin Atlantic more of a network carrier, including building up a European network again?


Why would that be necessary? AF/KL have a pretty extensive network in Europe which can be tapped from LHR. As long as all flights are on the the same ticket, it is part of the JV. JFK-CDG whether via LHR, via AMS, direct on DL or AF should be "the same" under the JV. That's the whole point.


This deal has two sides to it.

1. VS gains commercial sales strength by linking its UK hubs at LHR, LGW & MAN through AF/KL to many worldwide destinations not served by VS, plus expect VS codeshares from the UK regions to AMS/CDG and beyond where possible.

2. AF/KL gain commercial sales strength by adding the VS network from LHR/LGW and MAN (non-stop UK-TATL particularly) to their extensive worldwide network from LON & the UK regions. Remember AF/KL already codeshare on all DL services ex.EDI/GLA/LHR/MAN.

Combined AF/KL/DL/VS are able to sell:

- ABZ -> worldwide via AMS & CDG
- INV -> worldwide via AMS
- EDI -> TATL nonstop DL + worldwide via AMS & CDG
- GLA -> TATL nonstop DL + worldwide via AMS & CDG
- BHD -> worldwide via AMS
- NCL -> worldwide via AMS
- LBA -> worldwide via AMS
- MME -> worldwide via AMS
- HUY -> worldwide via AMS
- MAN -> TATL nonstop DL/VS + worldwide via AMS & CDG
- NWI -> worldwide via AMS
- BHX - worldwide via AMS & CDG
- CWL -> worldwide via AMS
- BRS -> worldwide via AMS
- SOU -> worldwide via AMS
- LHR -> TATL nonstop DL/VS + worldwide via AMS & CDG
- LGW -> TATL nonstop VS + (KL has already talked about opening AMS-LGW)
- LCY -> worldwide via AMS

This is one of the strongest UK network offerings available to any global customer.


This is a strong argument for a joint venture / code share / partnership. But why the stock purchase beyond the large quantity already owned? Delta + AF already controlled Virgin. Do they not have other places to invest?
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2113
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:46 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
I don't get it (happens). Can someone please explain the motivation for this?

Delta: They own enough of Air France that it would hurt to lose the investment, but not enough to influence/control Air France? Probably no investment in Air France would control Air France as long as it's governed by the French government and run by French unions. Air France seems like the sort of stock Delta would *not* want to own for a simple investment, and it seems that 10% might not be enough to influence Air France.

AF: Buying a junior-sized portion of an airline that's *sort of* controlled by Delta does not buy you control of Virgin. Selling 10% of your self to Delta .. AF could be business partners with Delta without selling any portion of itself.


Owning a sizable minority share in any company is considered influential. DL would just have to get a few other large shareholders on board with a proposal to get what they wanted - the threat of their large share is often enough to influence. DL, I can't remember, also probably gets a Board seat. That is influence, a lot of influence.

AF gets a big cash influx to pay down debt or spend (buying Virgin Atlantic shares). Its not a matter of business partners, its a matter of cash.


I'm politely sorry, but I think you're wrong.

If you think this deal helps Delta get influence at Virgin ... Delta already had 49.9% of the stock. Delta plus any other investor together make a majority. No increase in influence.

If you think this deal helps AF get influence at Virgin ... Delta already has 49.9% of the stock. Unless *every* other investor sides against Delta, Delta's position wins. AF gets no additional influence over Virgin.

Further, AF does not get any cash. The cash they get goes toward buying Virgin stock (which I still don't get why they want it).


Well, you misread my entire post.

1) DL gets influence at AF-KLM (I did not say VS, although DL definitely has more influence)
2) AF-KLM does in fact get cash. You need to check your facts before responding. So lets look at them since you can't: DL is buying 10% of AF-KLM for 375 euros ($438 million). AF-KLM is only paying 220 pounds ($287 million) for the share of VS. Simple math shows $151 million in cash for AF. This doesn't even count the CE cash.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:49 pm

Kilopond wrote:
With that system of mutual cross-ownerships Delta Air Lines might try to rescue "SkyTeam" from the very sorry destiny of "Oneworld" (or whatever has remained from that construction). That "Oneworld" parody of an "alliance" consists of hostile enemies who are just formally bound together. But in real life they just happily waste any potential synergies and demonstrate how NOT to do business.


I would be happy to learn more about this.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:54 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

Owning a sizable minority share in any company is considered influential. DL would just have to get a few other large shareholders on board with a proposal to get what they wanted - the threat of their large share is often enough to influence. DL, I can't remember, also probably gets a Board seat. That is influence, a lot of influence.

AF gets a big cash influx to pay down debt or spend (buying Virgin Atlantic shares). Its not a matter of business partners, its a matter of cash.


I'm politely sorry, but I think you're wrong.

If you think this deal helps Delta get influence at Virgin ... Delta already had 49.9% of the stock. Delta plus any other investor together make a majority. No increase in influence.

If you think this deal helps AF get influence at Virgin ... Delta already has 49.9% of the stock. Unless *every* other investor sides against Delta, Delta's position wins. AF gets no additional influence over Virgin.

Further, AF does not get any cash. The cash they get goes toward buying Virgin stock (which I still don't get why they want it).


Well, you misread my entire post.

1) DL gets influence at AF-KLM (I did not say VS, although DL definitely has more influence)
2) AF-KLM does in fact get cash. You need to check your facts before responding. So lets look at them since you can't: DL is buying 10% of AF-KLM for 375 euros ($438 million). AF-KLM is only paying 220 pounds ($287 million) for the share of VS. Simple math shows $151 million in cash for AF. This doesn't even count the CE cash.


Thank you for the correction.

But in what way does Delta get influence at Air France? Do they get a seat on the board?

My (possibly uninformed) opinion was that after the influence of the government, and the unions, there was little other influence to be had. That the unions and the government together had effective control of Air France.
 
jbs2886
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:58 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

I'm politely sorry, but I think you're wrong.

If you think this deal helps Delta get influence at Virgin ... Delta already had 49.9% of the stock. Delta plus any other investor together make a majority. No increase in influence.

If you think this deal helps AF get influence at Virgin ... Delta already has 49.9% of the stock. Unless *every* other investor sides against Delta, Delta's position wins. AF gets no additional influence over Virgin.

Further, AF does not get any cash. The cash they get goes toward buying Virgin stock (which I still don't get why they want it).


Well, you misread my entire post.

1) DL gets influence at AF-KLM (I did not say VS, although DL definitely has more influence)
2) AF-KLM does in fact get cash. You need to check your facts before responding. So lets look at them since you can't: DL is buying 10% of AF-KLM for 375 euros ($438 million). AF-KLM is only paying 220 pounds ($287 million) for the share of VS. Simple math shows $151 million in cash for AF. This doesn't even count the CE cash.


Thank you for the correction.

But in what way does Delta get influence at Air France? Do they get a seat on the board?

My (possibly uninformed) opinion was that after the influence of the government, and the unions, there was little other influence to be had. That the unions and the government together had effective control of Air France.


As I explained, owning large minority shares (10% even) is influence in and of itself. I don't know if they are getting a Board seat.

Edit: look at activist investors, they take shares (often below 10%) and can exact a lot of change.
 
Nola
Posts: 331
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:13 am

kitplane01 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

I'm politely sorry, but I think you're wrong.

If you think this deal helps Delta get influence at Virgin ... Delta already had 49.9% of the stock. Delta plus any other investor together make a majority. No increase in influence.

If you think this deal helps AF get influence at Virgin ... Delta already has 49.9% of the stock. Unless *every* other investor sides against Delta, Delta's position wins. AF gets no additional influence over Virgin.

Further, AF does not get any cash. The cash they get goes toward buying Virgin stock (which I still don't get why they want it).


Well, you misread my entire post.

1) DL gets influence at AF-KLM (I did not say VS, although DL definitely has more influence)
2) AF-KLM does in fact get cash. You need to check your facts before responding. So lets look at them since you can't: DL is buying 10% of AF-KLM for 375 euros ($438 million). AF-KLM is only paying 220 pounds ($287 million) for the share of VS. Simple math shows $151 million in cash for AF. This doesn't even count the CE cash.


Thank you for the correction.

But in what way does Delta get influence at Air France? Do they get a seat on the board?

My (possibly uninformed) opinion was that after the influence of the government, and the unions, there was little other influence to be had. That the unions and the government together had effective control of Air France.


Yes, Delta and China Eastern are both getting seats on the AF/KLM Board. Also, to the extent this is important, the shareholder who is being diluted by the transaction is the Government of the Republic of France. I cannot find the article that said this, but it is also noted on other boards.
 
Jetty
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:23 am

Nola wrote:
Also, to the extent this is important, the shareholder who is being diluted by the transaction is the Government of the Republic of France. I cannot find the article that said this, but it is also noted on other boards.

AF/KL will issue new shares for the deal, so all current shareholders are being diluted.
 
rbavfan
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys a significant stake in Virgin Atlantic

Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:37 am

AA100 wrote:
Jetty wrote:
In don't think this is possible as presented in the press release. DL already ownes 49% of VS, thus reaching the maximum allowed ownership under EU rules. Then DL cannot own more of VS indirectly via AF/KL. :?


DL is not changing the percentage of ownership in VS. This will remain at the maximum of 49%. AFKL are the ones buying the stake leaving Virgin Group with just 20%.

This makes total sense and a logical next step would be for VS to become a member of SkyTeam now that it is joining this JV.


Technically it will give Delta around 52.1% control as they will own 49% 0f VS & 10% of AFKL. It's an interesting way to try and get around the EU controlling interest rules. It results in delta having another 3.1% say in the operations.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:27 am

One other matter of curiosity: will Virgin Atlantic's maintenance still be provided by Lufthansa Technik, or will Delta TechOps (or the joint venture overall) set up a European MRO station and in-source maintenance? For VS, a Chinese partner is provided that can feed the Shanghai flights. Also, 9W has been mentioned multiple times. It would make sense to invite them into this JV as well as away to undercut the ME3 on India-USA traffic (they're double-daily into LHR with a third daily coming soon from BOM and once daily from DEL - two of those flights are great for US-India connections, once daily into AMS from both BOM and DEL---the DEL flight continues on to YYZ with fifth freedom flights, and once daily between BOM and CDG). Inviting 9W in would allow for better coordination of schedules between Europe and India as well as revenue sharing. The partnership is why DL dropped its BOM service from AMS in favor of a 9W codeshare..
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys a significant stake in Virgin Atlantic

Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:37 am

rbavfan wrote:
AA100 wrote:
Jetty wrote:
In don't think this is possible as presented in the press release. DL already ownes 49% of VS, thus reaching the maximum allowed ownership under EU rules. Then DL cannot own more of VS indirectly via AF/KL. :?


DL is not changing the percentage of ownership in VS. This will remain at the maximum of 49%. AFKL are the ones buying the stake leaving Virgin Group with just 20%.

This makes total sense and a logical next step would be for VS to become a member of SkyTeam now that it is joining this JV.


Technically it will give Delta around 52.1% control as they will own 49% 0f VS & 10% of AFKL. It's an interesting way to try and get around the EU controlling interest rules. It results in delta having another 3.1% say in the operations.


You understand that they will in fact only get to vote the 49% of the shares they directly own? The shares owned by Air France will be voted as Air France sees fit, which may or may not be in agreement with Delta.
 
questions
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:10 am

Who owns Virgin Australia? Any chance DL could purchase an equity stake?
 
Jerry123
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Re: AirFrance/KLM buys significant stake in VS and extends partnership with DL/MU

Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:18 am

skipness1E wrote:
Selling INV-AMS on KLM to long haul has nothing to do with VS, makes zero difference. They're already codesharing on a JV with Delta, that's the strenght in their core market, not having a VS codeshare on two points unconnected to VS network.

Delta came late to LHR, AA and UA came in 1991, DL had to wait til 2008, hence they built their slot holding from zero. Firstly it's a decent portfolio given the circunstances and secondly, given the metal neutrality of DL/VS, it's way bigger than UA but behind BA/AA.

The VS brand could easily be wound down over time and what remained moved to LGW...... Delta (UK) would make more sense, Virgin is a dated brand nowadays, even at the end SRB was blaming BA for not handing over enough slots to Virgin.

Yet Deltas actions at MAN suggest they could do the opposite. Hand over all their UK flights to Virgin Atlantic and use the metal elsewhere while having the benefits of the JV and because you own the company that you JV with your not releasing valuable slots to an airline that if you fall out with them can walk away with those slots.

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