apodino
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DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:31 pm

Every quarter on the day AA reports earnings, Doug Parker hosts a State of the Airline with AA Employees who can ask questions. One thing in particular from the SOTA today caught my attention and when I can rewatch the tape I can quote the guy a little better. Basically what was said is that AA believes that DFW as is currently laid out is woefully inadequate to provide the best service to their customers and they are trying to explore ways to address this. They mentioned a complete gut and rebuild of the entire airport into a different layout....maybe closer to a PHX or an IAH type. But they made one thing clear. AA is opposed to the Terminal F project as it currently stands. (Meaning another semicircular type terminal or a U shape along the lines of D).

So my question is, why now and what is prompting this? DFW just spend millions renovating three terminals, they built a new terminal and tram system less than a decade ago, and by all accounts, it seems to function well. So where is this sudden Terminal F comment coming from?

As I said, I don't remember exactly what was said, but when I can watch the tape I will post a cliff notes version here.
 
boeing777200lr
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:43 pm

Being from PHX i like the layout of DFW a lot better than PHX
 
jetero
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:48 pm

apodino wrote:
Every quarter on the day AA reports earnings, Doug Parker hosts a State of the Airline with AA Employees who can ask questions. One thing in particular from the SOTA today caught my attention and when I can rewatch the tape I can quote the guy a little better. Basically what was said is that AA believes that DFW as is currently laid out is woefully inadequate to provide the best service to their customers and they are trying to explore ways to address this. They mentioned a complete gut and rebuild of the entire airport into a different layout....maybe closer to a PHX or an IAH type. But they made one thing clear. AA is opposed to the Terminal F project as it currently stands. (Meaning another semicircular type terminal or a U shape along the lines of D).

So my question is, why now and what is prompting this? DFW just spend millions renovating three terminals, they built a new terminal and tram system less than a decade ago, and by all accounts, it seems to function well. So where is this sudden Terminal F comment coming from?

As I said, I don't remember exactly what was said, but when I can watch the tape I will post a cliff notes version here.


If you think the layout is operationally inefficient, why would you endorse investing more money in something that doesn't work (from AA's perspective)? Sadly they could've invested all of the Skylink and Terminal D money plus maybe another 25% and built a completely new, tremendously more efficient terminal building under one roof a la DTW.
 
jetero
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:49 pm

boeing777200lr wrote:
Being from PHX i like the layout of DFW a lot better than PHX


Just think how much more efficient it is to transfer bags at PHX than at DFW.
 
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william
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:00 pm

I want to know about this reconfiguring the terminals. What idea does Parker have in mind? Another ATL with terminals on the north and south with east./west concourses in the middle?
 
apodino
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:06 pm

jetero wrote:
apodino wrote:
Every quarter on the day AA reports earnings, Doug Parker hosts a State of the Airline with AA Employees who can ask questions. One thing in particular from the SOTA today caught my attention and when I can rewatch the tape I can quote the guy a little better. Basically what was said is that AA believes that DFW as is currently laid out is woefully inadequate to provide the best service to their customers and they are trying to explore ways to address this. They mentioned a complete gut and rebuild of the entire airport into a different layout....maybe closer to a PHX or an IAH type. But they made one thing clear. AA is opposed to the Terminal F project as it currently stands. (Meaning another semicircular type terminal or a U shape along the lines of D).

So my question is, why now and what is prompting this? DFW just spend millions renovating three terminals, they built a new terminal and tram system less than a decade ago, and by all accounts, it seems to function well. So where is this sudden Terminal F comment coming from?

As I said, I don't remember exactly what was said, but when I can watch the tape I will post a cliff notes version here.


If you think the layout is operationally inefficient, why would you endorse investing more money in something that doesn't work (from AA's perspective)? Sadly they could've invested all of the Skylink and Terminal D money plus maybe another 25% and built a completely new, tremendously more efficient terminal building under one roof a la DTW.

That's why I found the comments interesting. In current AA leaderships defense, these decisions and investments were made before any of them took over at AA. But still, it makes you wonder. I am really eager to rehear this tape.
 
hivue
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:15 pm

jetero wrote:
Sadly they could've invested all of the Skylink and Terminal D money plus maybe another 25% and built a completely new, tremendously more efficient terminal building under one roof


Construct 165 new gates "under one roof" while 165 existing gates are still in business (can't close the airport), and when the new terminal is done do what? - demolish the original 165? If Parker is looking for efficiency, that wouldn't be it.

Also, consider that DFW was constructed so that ~half is in Dallas city limits and ~half is in Fort Worth city limits -- hence its extreme linear design. Trying to construct a giant new terminal on one city's "property" or the other's likely would not go down well politically.
Last edited by hivue on Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
jetero
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:18 pm

hivue wrote:
jetero wrote:
Sadly they could've invested all of the Skylink and Terminal D money plus maybe another 25% and built a completely new, tremendously more efficient terminal building under one roof


Construct 165 new gates "under one roof" while 165 existing gates are still in business (can't close the airport), and when the new terminal is done do what? - demolish the original 165? If Parker is looking for efficiency, that wouldn't be it.


Fine, two roofs. It's not like DFW is short on land, even within the terminal complex.

Take a look at what's going on at LGA, hivue. Piece of cake!
Last edited by jetero on Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ty97
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:18 pm

Weird. In the TrAAin days, sure, but with SkyLink, DFW works really well IMO.
 
ty97
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:21 pm

hivue wrote:
[

Construct 165 new gates "under one roof" while 165 existing gates are still in business (can't close the airport), and when the new terminal is done do what? - demolish the original 165? If Parker is looking for efficiency, that wouldn't be it.


I guess, in theory, they could build out the F location in the new 'linear' design then take down and rebuild one existing terminal at a time to rebuild in the new style. Can't see the value proposition in this myself, but could see them working it in phases.
 
grbauc
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:25 pm

For connections under 1 hour on domestic to international I feel rushed at DFW. I personally think its good when my gates are close but going to different terminals when connecting is not optimal. Probaly not worth the cost to change it. Its for sure better now then in the past.
 
MaksFly
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:29 pm

I can certainly see how it can be a pain in the butt for AA, having so many terminals there, but as a Delta flyer who goes into DFW... I like it quite a bit.... yes, I do like DTW a lot better.... but DFW is not bad.

I always make it a point to visit the Amex lounge in the international terminal, so the Skytrain is VERY quick and efficient.

The only issue with DFW is just getting there and the parking and getting to the terminals themselves.
 
TXRoadMan
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:48 pm

apodino wrote:
So my question is, why now and what is prompting this? DFW just spend millions renovating three terminals, they built a new terminal and tram system less than a decade ago, and by all accounts, it seems to function well. So where is this sudden Terminal F comment coming from?

*Billions* $3.2 Billion, which includes the TRIP of C, including the R&R of the High-C Trailer Park gates. So, $2.5-2.8BB as it is now without C.

But, yes, I agree. Why now? Is Doug trying to get a discount on F, or perhaps a free TRIP of C?


hivue wrote:
Also, consider that DFW was constructed so that ~half is in Dallas city limits and ~half is in Fort Worth city limits -- hence its extreme linear design. Trying to construct a giant new terminal on one city's "property" or the other's likely would not go down well politically.

All of the existing terminals are 100% within Grapevine city limits (and Tarrant County.)

https://www.dfwairport.com/dfwucm1prd/g ... 036533.pdf
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:00 pm

I love DFW. Very efficient on the Tram System. Yes, making a 5 minute connection would be difficult, but given an 1+ hours, it's very efficient. Terminal F should go forward, the tram is already in place.

We regularly check in at our departure terminal (usually A or C), then hope the tram over to D to eat like we did last weekend, visit the lounge and then head back our gate in A or C. We typically leave the D lounge approximately 10 minutes before boarding is to commence.

I do agree that the biggest issue with the airport is driving in and maneuvering around the terminal to park, etc. So many narrow turnaround, etc. It's really a cluster.
Whatever
 
jetero
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:02 pm

TXRoadMan wrote:

But, yes, I agree. Why now? Is Doug trying to get a discount on F, or perhaps a free TRIP of C?


Quite the contrary from what little I've heard. US management hasn't been supportive from Day 1. It's just becoming more front-burner these days since they finally secured new gates at ORD.

If I had to hazard a guess, they've settled on a conceptual plan. It's affordable, on a standalone basis, and AA is happy to pay. The problem is having to pay for the, what, $4 billion in outstanding debt to preserve the original design. Those bondholders have to be paid off somehow.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:32 pm

jetero wrote:
If you think the layout is operationally inefficient, why would you endorse investing more money in something that doesn't work (from AA's perspective)? Sadly they could've invested all of the Skylink and Terminal D money plus maybe another 25% and built a completely new, tremendously more efficient terminal building under one roof a la DTW.


DTW isn't under one roof. Concourse B/C is connected to A by underground moving walkway, but the North Terminal is connected to A ... by bus. And DTW had just 1/2 the passenger boardings of DFW in 2015.

It would pain Parker to say this, but he probably wants linear concourses all connected post-security by train -- like Atlanta! If he has $20 Billion and 15 years or so, he can have it.
 
jetero
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:35 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
jetero wrote:
If you think the layout is operationally inefficient, why would you endorse investing more money in something that doesn't work (from AA's perspective)? Sadly they could've invested all of the Skylink and Terminal D money plus maybe another 25% and built a completely new, tremendously more efficient terminal building under one roof a la DTW.


DTW isn't under one roof. Concourse B/C is connected to A by underground moving walkway, but the North Terminal is connected to A ... by bus. And DTW had just 1/2 the passenger boardings of DFW in 2015.

It would pain Parker to say this, but he probably wants linear concourses all connected post-security by train -- like Atlanta! If he has $20 Billion and 15 years or so, he can have it.


Fine. Two roofs? Two and a half roofs? Three roofs? Happy now? You really miss the point. This is an AA hub plan. The other airlines can stay in a TRIP'ped out horseshoe.

And the conceptual plans I know of that were thrown around are not ATL. More like DTW.
Last edited by jetero on Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:39 pm

One of the most beautiful things about DFW is that you can essentially check in at any terminal (AA can check-in at 4 of 5 terminals) and then move around airside post security all you want. No Buses or leaving security. It's a wonderful thing. If I want to Check-in in A and go to D or E for dinner, I can....and very easily at that.
Whatever
 
jetero
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:41 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
One of the most beautiful things about DFW is that you can essentially check in at any terminal (AA can check-in at 4 of 5 terminals) and then move around airside post security all you want. No Buses or leaving security. It's a wonderful thing. If I want to Check-in in A and go to D or E for dinner, I can....and very easily at that.


Well that's the case at a majority of hub airports, I think.

It sure is a pain when it comes to parking and checked bags.

I don't know how anyone would argue for a unit terminal design like DFW or IAH over ATL. Certainly not from an airline operational perspective.
 
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kc135topboom
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:43 pm

TXRoadMan wrote:
apodino wrote:
All of the existing terminals are 100% within Grapevine city limits (and Tarrant County.)



The Tarrant/Dallas county line is the centerline of Twy K.
 
stevend08
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:02 pm

As someone who's job is to help people connect at DFW, a vast majority of passengers have been at the verge of having a mental breakdown when I tell them they have to go to another terminal to make their connecting flight.
For many of these passengers, thoughts of ORD or JFK come into mind having to take a train landside. Usually after I explain the trains are all airside and come every minute, most passengers calm down. I know my big big bosses have heard about talks about redoing the DFW semi circular design but it's interesting to hear the AA execs thoughts.
IMO I think a lot of the sentiment against DFW's design among pax is from it being such a unique design not seen much anywhere else and thus a lack of familiarity. Sure transferring bags can lead to long travel distances and when the skylink breaks all hell breaks loose. But unless there's a couple bilion dollars floating around I don't see DFW changing its design anytime soon as the current system is already quite efficient in its job.
 
Antarius
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:12 pm

One potential option is building a terminal in the spot of F and making A - E concourses. This way security and baggage claim would be in one place as well as all pick up and drop off.

Would be similar to the design of DEN. Although would require a lot of reconfiguration.
19:SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS DOH BLR KTM MFM MEX MSY BWI BNA
 
jetero
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:14 pm

Antarius wrote:

Would be similar to the design of DEN. Although would require a lot of reconfiguration.


Not really. Some roadway work, that's all. Doesn't solve the major operational issues from the airline side, though. (Well, at least not most of them.)
 
MLIAA
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:31 pm

The Skylink (outer loop) makes one lap in about 20 minutes, which means it's about 10 minutes to the furthest point at the opposite end of the terminal. Figure in a 10 minute walk from the furthest gate to the Skylink station, 10 minutes on the tram at most, and then another 10 minute walk at most, a 30 minute connection is very reasonable for an airport as large as DFW. (worst case scenario)
Last edited by MLIAA on Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A319 A320 A321 A332 B712 B722 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B763 B764 B772 B788 MD80 S340 E140 E145 E170 E175 CRJ2 CRJ7 CRJ9
 
jetero
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:35 pm

MLIAA wrote:
The Skylink (outer loop) makes one lap in about 20 minutes, which means it's about 10 minutes to the furthest point at the opposite end of the terminal. Figure in a 10 minute walk from the furthest gate to the Skylink station, 10 minutes on the tram at most, and then another 10 minute walk at most, a 30 minute connection is very reasonable for an airport as large as DFW.


30 minutes to get between gates. Sounds absolutely lovely.
 
MLIAA
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:46 pm

jetero wrote:
MLIAA wrote:
The Skylink (outer loop) makes one lap in about 20 minutes, which means it's about 10 minutes to the furthest point at the opposite end of the terminal. Figure in a 10 minute walk from the furthest gate to the Skylink station, 10 minutes on the tram at most, and then another 10 minute walk at most, a 30 minute connection is very reasonable for an airport as large as DFW.


30 minutes to get between gates. Sounds absolutely lovely.


Worst case scenario.
A319 A320 A321 A332 B712 B722 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B763 B764 B772 B788 MD80 S340 E140 E145 E170 E175 CRJ2 CRJ7 CRJ9
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:47 pm

I never understood the rationale to optimize the layout of DFW for O&D, when the the strength of DFW's location and size was as a hub. No sooner did Braniff's new terminal at DFW open than the new screening regulations made the terminal layout totally obsolete! They installed X-Ray machines at each gate and screened passengers as they boarded flights.

Had the architects known at the time they designed the terminals, that passengers were going to be screened prior to boarding aircraft, they would probably designed much different terminal layouts.
 
jetero
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:56 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Had the architects known at the time they designed the terminals, that passengers were going to be screened prior to boarding aircraft, they would probably designed much different terminal layouts.


Well I think that goes without saying.

In fairness, it's a late 1960s design and was considered state-of-the-art at its time--the most recent in a series of concepts to minimize walking distances for O&D passengers. IAH and TPA were other concepts. These 3 airports all represented the state of the art over the span of a decade. ATL was the first terminal complex designed with connecting passengers in mind.

Unlike ATL, I don't think BN's operations at DAL in the late 1960s were banked anywhere close to DL at ATL. For AA and DL it was more of a transcontinental stopping off point with some regional service.

But by 1980 (ATL era), the design had quickly been rendered obsolete and inefficient.
 
albert648
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:15 am

Maybe they could do something that looks like KIX with one long terminal on each side...something like ATL would be ideal but that would require burying Int'l Parkway underground, wouldn't it? Eventually build an elevated building like they have at SFO international between the two sides to put everything under one roof. That seems to be the best they can do given the constraints. As for execution, do it one side at a time.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:28 am

jetero wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
One of the most beautiful things about DFW is that you can essentially check in at any terminal (AA can check-in at 4 of 5 terminals) and then move around airside post security all you want. No Buses or leaving security. It's a wonderful thing. If I want to Check-in in A and go to D or E for dinner, I can....and very easily at that.

Well that's the case at a majority of hub airports, I think.

Not at EWR or JFK, as far as I'm aware. I'd also throw in MCO, but I'm not sure if that's a hub for anyone.
Captain Kevin
 
jetero
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:37 am

AirKevin wrote:
jetero wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
One of the most beautiful things about DFW is that you can essentially check in at any terminal (AA can check-in at 4 of 5 terminals) and then move around airside post security all you want. No Buses or leaving security. It's a wonderful thing. If I want to Check-in in A and go to D or E for dinner, I can....and very easily at that.

Well that's the case at a majority of hub airports, I think.

Not at EWR or JFK, as far as I'm aware. I'd also throw in MCO, but I'm not sure if that's a hub for anyone.


Nor at LAX or SFO, but those aren't the large connecting hubs (by percentage) either.

But for the following it's the case:

DFW

IAH

ATL

DEN

PHL

SEA

IAD

SLC

Of the big connecting hubs, I guess it's DTW, MSP, PHX, MIA (?--it's been awhile--the concourses aren't all connected airside, are they?) and ORD (although there are buses).
 
777PHX
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:43 am

FriscoHeavy wrote:
One of the most beautiful things about DFW is that you can essentially check in at any terminal (AA can check-in at 4 of 5 terminals) and then move around airside post security all you want. No Buses or leaving security. It's a wonderful thing. If I want to Check-in in A and go to D or E for dinner, I can....and very easily at that.


That's great if you have time to spare and you're originating at DFW. Not so much when you've got a tight connection and you're playing the AA gate change dance that they're so fond of doing at DFW.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:47 am

There's no reason for airports with 5/6/7 terminals in 2017. It's inefficient in the age of efficiency.

That said, DFW, LAX, JFK, EWR are all older airports that share this problem.

They can modernize with incremental steps or they can pull an ATL and start over.

I know at JFK, thanks to airlines (like AA) deciding they wanted something different, terminals have gotten bigger and there are fewer separate buildings.

LAX is a different story. Still locked in with many small terminals.

DFW has many terminals, but they were built Texas size. The drive up horseshoe was a bizarre, pre-EPCOT Center, state of the art concept in place at DFW and MCI. MCI has suffered terribly because of it...DFW has embraced, adapted and thrived.

I see the DFW terminal pattern continuing short term and medium term. Doug may be talking long term
 
jetero
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:54 am

jfklganyc wrote:

They can modernize with incremental steps or they can pull an ATL and start over.


I think from current AA mgmt perspective, they could've started over in 2000. They didn't, sunk a lot of money into the existing design (twice, mind you)--that could've been invested in "starting over," and they've got another 30 years to pay that off.

Not that old AA mgmt wasn't completely complicit--all of these investments were fully approved by AA.
 
blink182
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:22 am

Well with terminal renovations happening right now, I think the next major opportunity--and a prime time to start from scratch--will probably be in 25 years' time. At that point, D and Skylink will be nearing 40(heck, D is already starting to show its age) and the original four terminals will be nearly 70 and past the point of cosmetic touch ups and some reconfiguring, which are TRIP's primary goals.

At that point it may be a good idea to start from scratch rebuilds. Parker is smart to start that dialogue now, however, to account for years of planning that will no doubt be required for such a project. As has been mentioned by others, AA proposed a midfield terminal in the late 90s.

All in all though, DFW deserves immense credit for adapting its original layout to current industry requirements and keeping them lively and well serviced, and Skylink is as great a train system as I've seen in any airport.

Out of curiosity, how does AA transfer luggage across the airport from C/A to D/B?
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
jetero
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:49 pm

blink182 wrote:
Out of curiosity, how does AA transfer luggage across the airport from C/A to D/B?


I believe there are several tug tunnels under Int'l Pkwy (not automated) but I could be wrong.
 
bob75013
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:52 pm

[quote="blink182"]Well with terminal renovations happening right now, I think the next major opportunity--and a prime time to start from scratch--will probably be in 25 years' time. At that point, D and Skylink will be nearing 40(heck, D is already starting to show its age) and the original four terminals will be nearly 70 and past the point of cosmetic touch ups and some reconfiguring, which are TRIP's primary goals.

/quote]

ORD's terminals are now over 70 years old -- There's no reason that DFW's won't live past that ripe old age. Besides DFW has been much better at modernization than ORD ever was.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:44 pm

jetero wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
jetero wrote:
If you think the layout is operationally inefficient, why would you endorse investing more money in something that doesn't work (from AA's perspective)? Sadly they could've invested all of the Skylink and Terminal D money plus maybe another 25% and built a completely new, tremendously more efficient terminal building under one roof a la DTW.


DTW isn't under one roof. Concourse B/C is connected to A by underground moving walkway, but the North Terminal is connected to A ... by bus. And DTW had just 1/2 the passenger boardings of DFW in 2015.

It would pain Parker to say this, but he probably wants linear concourses all connected post-security by train -- like Atlanta! If he has $20 Billion and 15 years or so, he can have it.


Fine. Two roofs? Two and a half roofs? Three roofs? Happy now? You really miss the point. This is an AA hub plan. The other airlines can stay in a TRIP'ped out horseshoe.

And the conceptual plans I know of that were thrown around are not ATL. More like DTW.


Scale up DTW to something Texas-sized (better make it Texas-sized for 2030-2050) and it won't be efficient, either. DTW's 'big' concourse is ~0.8 miles long and served by moving walkways and a s-l-o-w, cable-pulled tram with cars moving bidirectionally in tandem. One can't practically ask people to walk much farther, or a tram of that design to serve a much longer distance. The underground walkway is OK between A and B/C, but you couldn't ask people to use such a system two or three times consecutively -- MCTs would have to increase significantly with the result of losing lots of connectivity.
 
jetero
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:44 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
jetero wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

DTW isn't under one roof. Concourse B/C is connected to A by underground moving walkway, but the North Terminal is connected to A ... by bus. And DTW had just 1/2 the passenger boardings of DFW in 2015.

It would pain Parker to say this, but he probably wants linear concourses all connected post-security by train -- like Atlanta! If he has $20 Billion and 15 years or so, he can have it.


Fine. Two roofs? Two and a half roofs? Three roofs? Happy now? You really miss the point. This is an AA hub plan. The other airlines can stay in a TRIP'ped out horseshoe.

And the conceptual plans I know of that were thrown around are not ATL. More like DTW.


Scale up DTW to something Texas-sized (better make it Texas-sized for 2030-2050) and it won't be efficient, either. DTW's 'big' concourse is ~0.8 miles long and served by moving walkways and a s-l-o-w, cable-pulled tram with cars moving bidirectionally in tandem. One can't practically ask people to walk much farther, or a tram of that design to serve a much longer distance. The underground walkway is OK between A and B/C, but you couldn't ask people to use such a system two or three times consecutively -- MCTs would have to increase significantly with the result of losing lots of connectivity.


MIFlyer, send your letter and recommendations to AA, not me.
 
bob75013
Posts: 906
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:54 pm

jetero wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
Had the architects known at the time they designed the terminals, that passengers were going to be screened prior to boarding aircraft, they would probably designed much different terminal layouts.


Well I think that goes without saying.

In fairness, it's a late 1960s design and was considered state-of-the-art at its time--the most recent in a series of concepts to minimize walking distances for O&D passengers. .


At inception, DFW's terminal layout made sense. Three airlines had hubs (DL, BN, AA) and each had maybe 20+% of the pax .Each had it's own terminal. Few pax traveled across terminals. That layout made perfect sense. It' make a lot less sense now with AA operating out of 4 terminals.
 
global2
Posts: 499
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:47 pm

777PHX wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
One of the most beautiful things about DFW is that you can essentially check in at any terminal (AA can check-in at 4 of 5 terminals) and then move around airside post security all you want. No Buses or leaving security. It's a wonderful thing. If I want to Check-in in A and go to D or E for dinner, I can....and very easily at that.


That's great if you have time to spare and you're originating at DFW. Not so much when you've got a tight connection and you're playing the AA gate change dance that they're so fond of doing at DFW.


Yes, that surprise terminal/gate change almost caused me to miss a flight.
But if they ever decide to completely change the layout of the airport, could they please move the rental car center closer? I always have to drive past my terminal what seems miles and miles to the car rental return, and take the shuttle bus back, again miles and miles.
 
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gdg9
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:40 pm

blink182 wrote:
(heck, D is already starting to show its age)


How so?
@dfwtower
 
jfk777
Posts: 7092
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:50 pm

hivue wrote:
jetero wrote:
Sadly they could've invested all of the Skylink and Terminal D money plus maybe another 25% and built a completely new, tremendously more efficient terminal building under one roof


Construct 165 new gates "under one roof" while 165 existing gates are still in business (can't close the airport), and when the new terminal is done do what? - demolish the original 165? If Parker is looking for efficiency, that wouldn't be it.

Also, consider that DFW was constructed so that ~half is in Dallas city limits and ~half is in Fort Worth city limits -- hence its extreme linear design. Trying to construct a giant new terminal on one city's "property" or the other's likely would not go down well politically.


The political realities of the 1960 and early 1970's are different then today, the airport is not moving. IF a new terminal complex were built at DFW and it was only in Dallas or Fort Worth is anyone going to call them on it ? DFW airport has been operating now for 43 years and the original terminals are worn out and the circular design worked better for a " regulated" airline market. Local politicians have better things to do, like building a new terminal complex and saying thousands of jibs get created.
 
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william
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Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:41 pm

jetero wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
jetero wrote:
If you think the layout is operationally inefficient, why would you endorse investing more money in something that doesn't work (from AA's perspective)? Sadly they could've invested all of the Skylink and Terminal D money plus maybe another 25% and built a completely new, tremendously more efficient terminal building under one roof a la DTW.


DTW isn't under one roof. Concourse B/C is connected to A by underground moving walkway, but the North Terminal is connected to A ... by bus. And DTW had just 1/2 the passenger boardings of DFW in 2015.

It would pain Parker to say this, but he probably wants linear concourses all connected post-security by train -- like Atlanta! If he has $20 Billion and 15 years or so, he can have it.


Fine. Two roofs? Two and a half roofs? Three roofs? Happy now? You really miss the point. This is an AA hub plan. The other airlines can stay in a TRIP'ped out horseshoe.

And the conceptual plans I know of that were thrown around are not ATL. More like DTW.


I can see a Delta DTW style terminals on both sides of International Parkway. Linear.
 
grbauc
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:30 pm

777PHX wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
One of the most beautiful things about DFW is that you can essentially check in at any terminal (AA can check-in at 4 of 5 terminals) and then move around airside post security all you want. No Buses or leaving security. It's a wonderful thing. If I want to Check-in in A and go to D or E for dinner, I can....and very easily at that.


That's great if you have time to spare and you're originating at DFW. Not so much when you've got a tight connection and you're playing the AA gate change dance that they're so fond of doing at DFW.



:bigthumbsup: agree now that there running banks again versus rolling hub its tight and stressful with the shorter times.
 
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william
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Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:11 pm

If one did two Delta DTW styled linear terminals on either side of the parkway would there be enough gates ? What's the total number of gates now at DFW?
 
AAvgeek744
Posts: 750
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:08 pm

Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:42 pm

If they don't build F, please renovate C like A was done. C is a dump and is extremely crowded during bank connections.
 
jetero
Posts: 4457
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:49 pm

william wrote:
jetero wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

DTW isn't under one roof. Concourse B/C is connected to A by underground moving walkway, but the North Terminal is connected to A ... by bus. And DTW had just 1/2 the passenger boardings of DFW in 2015.

It would pain Parker to say this, but he probably wants linear concourses all connected post-security by train -- like Atlanta! If he has $20 Billion and 15 years or so, he can have it.


Fine. Two roofs? Two and a half roofs? Three roofs? Happy now? You really miss the point. This is an AA hub plan. The other airlines can stay in a TRIP'ped out horseshoe.

And the conceptual plans I know of that were thrown around are not ATL. More like DTW.


I can see a Delta DTW style terminals on both sides of International Parkway. Linear.


You may be on to something.
 
jetero
Posts: 4457
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:51 pm

william wrote:
If one did two Delta DTW styled linear terminals on either side of the parkway would there be enough gates ? What's the total number of gates now at DFW?


The apron is more than a mile long now on the east side (if not two miles) and any concourse would be double-loaded (gates on both sides). I'm not sure if two concourses could fit on each side without taxiway reconfiguration.

It's +/- 165 gates.
 
AAtakeMeAway
Posts: 423
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:59 am

Re: DFW Terminal F in jeopardy?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:30 pm

Just FYI for those that aren't aware (I've seen a couple of posts that reference AA operating out of four terminals) - AA actually operates out of all five terminal now. American Eagle operates some flights out of the former US gates in E.

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