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FlyRow
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First Joon routes announced

Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:18 am

First routes of the cheaper Air France Airline will be:

Paris - Berlin / Porto / Barcelona / Lisbon.

A320 equipment is to be expected, in the future A340's and A350's are to be expected for longhaul routes.

They say they aim to score with "Millenials"... I might be one, but I really can't find the point, and a airline aiming at this just makes me roll my eyes.
I Really can't find the point for these EU routes especially, longhaul okay, but for shorthaul they have Transavia don't they? And transavia';s marketing is already "trendy".

In dutch: https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/categorie/2/airlines/air-france-dochter-joon-maakt-eerste-europese-routes-bekend
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Dutchy
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:25 am

It is to bring more balance between Air France and KLM, that seems to be the premier driver here. More on this: https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... ance-komen
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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ro1960
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:47 am

I believe pilots agreements limit the number of aircraft Transavia can operate, no? Maybe there is less limitation with Joon. But I agree it's a bit confusing.
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Dutchy
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:36 am

Joon is capped as well. Pilots are very protective of their jobs and their community.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:49 am

For long-haul routes, I would expect Newark to be at least one destination to compete with Norwegian, which has a morning departure from CDG and a late afternoon (rush hour) departure from EWR. This used to be a 747 destination.
 
mrbonfire
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:17 pm

The branding, the tone-of-voice, the logo: all wrong, wrong, wrong. If costs can't be lower than DY and FR, then offer something else to actually appeal to the 'millennials' they think they're talking to.

So ill-conceived it makes Level look good.
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:37 pm

SGN, HAN, CPT, BKK, YUL could also shift to Joon.
 
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FlyRow
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:52 pm

mrbonfire wrote:
The branding, the tone-of-voice, the logo: all wrong, wrong, wrong. If costs can't be lower than DY and FR, then offer something else to actually appeal to the 'millennials' they think they're talking to.

So ill-conceived it makes Level look good.


The moment you say something is going to be "hip, smart" its going to fail. Things are hip/cool because they are naturally that, not because you force it that way. Joon will flop or be rebranded in a year.
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andrefranca
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:33 pm

They say they aim to score with "Millenials"... I might be one, but I really can't find the point, and a airline aiming at this just makes me roll my eyes.


Yeah mate, for me, it's a bunch of 70's YO sirs running an old airlines "thinking" they've cracked the code to please us, come on give us a break, they can't even get their acts together... I was a victim of 2014's pilot strike, that was not cool and took me away from AF unless they get like 30% cheaper than other airlines, which is unlikely.

I Really can't find the point for these EU routes especially, longhaul okay, but for shorthaul they have Transavia don't they? And transavia';s marketing is already "trendy".


As stated above, for me they are CLUELESS about it.... They insist on the same mistakes...

The branding, the tone-of-voice, the logo: all wrong, wrong, wrong. If costs can't be lower than DY and FR, then offer something else to actually appeal to the 'millennials' they think they're talking to.
The moment you say something is going to be "hip, smart" its going to fail. Things are hip/cool because they are naturally that, not because you force it that way. Joon will flop or be rebranded in a year.


Agreed mate, and I bet they'll pay low wages, that will reflect on the staff mood and willingness to serve etc... it's me and Saint Thomas... only believe when I see it.
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usxguy
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:57 pm

... a business plan written by consultants who have never gone "past the curtain" in their lives...
xx
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:29 pm

Hey, if it's cheap then that's cool enough for me.
 
by738
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:34 pm

Surprised by those routes. Thought purpose was mid to long haul lowcost. Why could these SH routes not be Transavia or Hop? Bizarre.
 
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FlyRow
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:50 pm

It's going to be a lower cost base airline and it's something the AF managment finally got past there terrible unions.

While HV has a low cost base AF pilots don't want to fly a "LCC carier".. so you get this weird contraption which is just a waste of airline paint.
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Jetty
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:09 pm

FlyRow wrote:
It's going to be a lower cost base airline and it's something the AF managment finally got past there terrible unions.

While HV has a low cost base AF pilots don't want to fly a "LCC carier".. so you get this weird contraption which is just a waste of airline paint.

:checkmark:

Without the unions there would be no Joon. A flight for Joon with an AF pilot allows AF itself to cut a loss-making flight at the same time, that wouldn't have applied to HV.
 
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FlyRow
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:16 pm

while that is sort of right. the first plan was that HV would have this role. But if the AF pilots wheren't that difficult they could be operating under the AF name with the same low-cost base as KLM. Then both KLM and AF could grow under there own name instead of using this contraption.
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mrbonfire
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:26 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
Hey, if it's cheap then that's cool enough for me.

Erm, free? That's usually cheap enough. Seriously if you do, please review. Love to be proved wrong but feel this could be a snatching of failure from the jaws of victory.
 
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vhtje
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:27 pm

mrbonfire wrote:
The branding, the tone-of-voice, the logo: all wrong, wrong, wrong. If costs can't be lower than DY and FR, then offer something else to actually appeal to the 'millennials' they think they're talking to.

So ill-conceived it makes Level look good.


Talk about ill-conceived... it does not look like they have bothered to register joon.com

http://www.joon.com

At the very least they should register it and redirect it to flyjoon.com or whichever domain they are going to use.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
mrbonfire
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:28 pm

by738 wrote:
Surprised by those routes. Thought purpose was mid to long haul lowcost. Why could these SH routes not be Transavia or Hop? Bizarre.

It's AF; better not to think, lol.
 
mrbonfire
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:29 pm

vhtje wrote:
mrbonfire wrote:
The branding, the tone-of-voice, the logo: all wrong, wrong, wrong. If costs can't be lower than DY and FR, then offer something else to actually appeal to the 'millennials' they think they're talking to.

So ill-conceived it makes Level look good.


Talk about ill-conceived... it does not look like they have bothered to register joon.com

http://www.joon.com

At the very least they should register it and redirect it to flyjoon.com or whichever domain they are going to use.


Jesus wept. That post made me chuckle. I wonder if AF will host it on their site. Kind of tells you how long they expect this to be around...
 
Jetty
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:57 pm

vhtje wrote:
Talk about ill-conceived... it does not look like they have bothered to register joon.com

http://www.joon.com

At the very least they should register it and redirect it to flyjoon.com or whichever domain they are going to use.

It IS registered by someone else 15 years ago, without ever using it. AF/KL probably want to buy it but that often takes a while in cases like this because the current owner tries to hit the jackpot knowing the value it has to AF/KL, while it has no value for himself.
 
Flyingabout
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:12 pm

You question what's the end game with these haphazard in-house LCCs. Level when there's Vueling? Joon when there's Transavia? The only conclusion I've reached is that they will be the "Noah's Ark" of the next downturn - the plane and employee caps will be raised and it'll be a case of get on board or find a new job. Then, come the next upturn, the airlines have a work force that is used to new, worse working conditions than the legacy airline they initially left behind when their jobs were threatened.
 
nine4nine
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:28 pm

What a ridiculously named airline.
717 727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 742 748 752 753 762 763 772 773 DC9 MD80/88/90 DC10 319 320 321 332 333 CS100 CRJ200 Q400 E175 E190 ERJ145 EMB120
 
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ro1960
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:48 am

In the end what will make it hip are how cheap the fares are. They should be announced in September.
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Blankbarcode
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:04 am

Why not give their malnourished baby Transavia the project? It already has millenial-directed branding (albeit more family oriented maybe) and you know... an operational foundation to start on?

As someone this airline will be trying to reach out to, the branding and name leave a lot to be desired. Level, on the other hand...
 
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LuxuryTravelled
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:20 am

Could be in the minority, but I think its a good idea... Although, they should drop the 'millennial' push - its all about value, connectivity (as in wifi) and flexibility - age isn't a consideration.
 
aircatalonia
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:59 am

Why doesn't AF sell cheaper tickets themselves? Run some ads with 20€ tickets... A lot cheaper and easier than setting up a new airline that's going to fly with the same planes and crews anyway.
 
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FlyRow
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:04 am

^^
Because the problem is not in the ticket price, but in the operating and crew cost base.
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SCQ83
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:04 pm

I am completely lost. Some of those routes like Paris to Barcelona and Porto will have Air France, Transavia and now this JOON thing. What is the point?

Btw an article in Inverse making fun of Air France's marketing strategy with this new carrier

https://www.inverse.com/article/34627-j ... illennials

Flyingabout wrote:
You question what's the end game with these haphazard in-house LCCs. Level when there's Vueling? Joon when there's Transavia.


Not similar, Vueling = short haul / LEVEL = long haul.

Also Iberia other that some odd VY route from Madrid does not duplicate carriers between VY/IB.

That would be like IAG flying from, let's say, Barcelona to Berlin with Iberia, Vueling and LEVEL. Total nonsense.
 
LMFNINJA
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:19 pm

nine4nine wrote:
What a ridiculously named airline.


Agree 100%.
 
Jetty
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:29 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
I am completely lost. Some of those routes like Paris to Barcelona and Porto will have Air France, Transavia and now this JOON thing. What is the point?

The point is (as explained before) that AF wants to keep costs as low as possible while not getting into another major conflict with the pilot unions. The whole 'millennial' thing is only to give a positive marketing spin to yet another brand.

Expanding Transavia wasn't acceptable for the unions, while a new brand with lower costs than AF but the same pilots was acceptable. Thus a new brand was created. I'm not saying I agree with AF's strategy but it's way too simplistic to dismiss it as 'total nonsense'.
 
SCQ83
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:41 pm

Jetty wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
I am completely lost. Some of those routes like Paris to Barcelona and Porto will have Air France, Transavia and now this JOON thing. What is the point?

The point is (as explained before) that AF wants to keep costs as low as possible while not getting into another major conflict with the pilot unions. The whole 'millennial' thing is only to give a positive marketing spin to yet another brand.

Expanding Transavia wasn't acceptable for the unions, while a new brand with lower costs than AF but the same pilots was acceptable. Thus a new brand was created. I'm not saying I agree with AF's strategy but it's way too simplistic to dismiss it as 'total nonsense'.


Iberia had the same issue and created Iberia Express. Why not something similar?
 
Jetty
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:50 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Iberia had the same issue and created Iberia Express. Why not something similar?

That would have been an option that'd have achieved the same. I don't like the Joon brand much either, but what I do understand on itself is the creation of yet another brand given the issues AF has to deal with.
 
anstar
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:07 pm

From what Ive seen Joon is not going to be low cost... the pilots will be on similar contracts and the offering will be full service (not buy on board.) It seems its just the cabin crews that will have the cheaper contracts.
 
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:12 pm

LuxuryTravelled wrote:
Could be in the minority, but I think its a good idea... Although, they should drop the 'millennial' push - its all about value, connectivity (as in wifi) and flexibility - age isn't a consideration.


= They could have done all that within AF.

This has to be the dumbest idea I have heard in a very long time. Happy to be proved wrong, but a bunch of old Frenchies trying to figure out what guests want in a board room does not give me much hope.

Why not do something radical and have a Dutch lead AF/KL group ... or, have someone non-European ;)? Now, that is a radical idea.

Saludos,
Alex
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Jetty
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:26 pm

anstar wrote:
From what Ive seen Joon is not going to be low cost... the pilots will be on similar contracts and the offering will be full service (not buy on board.) It seems its just the cabin crews that will have the cheaper contracts.

True, but AF has a profit margin of ~0,5%. Then just cheaper cabin crews alone might make a big enough difference to set up a new brand.
 
drgmobile
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:37 pm

I suspect we'll see Joon in the Canadian market, as there is a lot of trans-Atlantic leisure traffic between Canada and France. More competition for Transat. Maybe an Ottawa flight. There's no nonstop service in the market but a lot of choice in nearby Montreal, so...
 
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:41 pm

Jetty wrote:
anstar wrote:
From what Ive seen Joon is not going to be low cost... the pilots will be on similar contracts and the offering will be full service (not buy on board.) It seems its just the cabin crews that will have the cheaper contracts.

True, but AF has a profit margin of ~0,5%. Then just cheaper cabin crews alone might make a big enough difference to set up a new brand.


= And, the moment oil swings upward, no "cheaper cabin crew" can again save AF. They have weak margins during a historically good time for airlines. They need far greater ideas to cut costs, but equally as important, they need ideas to generate revenue. The challenge is AF has run out of ideas ... and it is being run by the same self-serving French elite who is the source of the problem. Forget their hatred for anything foreign, if they had any iota of sense, they would bench their xenophobia and give (for example), Transavia full ability to run. Yes, the unions would march, but that has been the case in all airlines ... BA, IB, QF, etc. You need a strong leader. Clearly, France does not seem to have one.

Saludos,
Alex
Live, and let live.
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:41 pm

Joon isn't low cost, well not in the Ryanair/Easyjet/Wizz sense at least. It's supposed to be a way to lower costs without driving the unions crazy. Just think of Joon as being the Mixed Fleet of AF. Lower costs and try to make a push in loss making markets with something "new". Prices will likely be around AFs current prices, hopefully so will service (No diluted BA level of service please).

Regardless of whether you like the name or not, it's different. I don't like it but it's easy to remember, it's 1 syllable. And ultimately if Joon allows AF to avoid becoming the next Alitalia well more power to them.

Just sad that Joon will be getting the A350s whilst AF will keep 10 abreast 777s for a long long time.
 
VSMUT
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:54 pm

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Regardless of whether you like the name or not, it's different. I don't like it but it's easy to remember, it's 1 syllable. And ultimately if Joon allows AF to avoid becoming the next Alitalia well more power to them.


I keep confusing them with IAGs new LCC Joost. The names are too similar.
 
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:13 pm

abrelosojos wrote:
Jetty wrote:
anstar wrote:
From what Ive seen Joon is not going to be low cost... the pilots will be on similar contracts and the offering will be full service (not buy on board.) It seems its just the cabin crews that will have the cheaper contracts.

True, but AF has a profit margin of ~0,5%. Then just cheaper cabin crews alone might make a big enough difference to set up a new brand.


= And, the moment oil swings upward, no "cheaper cabin crew" can again save AF. They have weak margins during a historically good time for airlines. They need far greater ideas to cut costs, but equally as important, they need ideas to generate revenue. The challenge is AF has run out of ideas ... and it is being run by the same self-serving French elite who is the source of the problem. Forget their hatred for anything foreign, if they had any iota of sense, they would bench their xenophobia and give (for example), Transavia full ability to run. Yes, the unions would march, but that has been the case in all airlines ... BA, IB, QF, etc. You need a strong leader. Clearly, France does not seem to have one.

Saludos,
Alex


I completely concur. AF is eventually going to have to have a big ugly industrial conflict/meltdown with its unions - they might as well do it now and get it over with. Send the senior management and their families to Martinique or Cayenne or Reunion for a few months and let them run the airline remotely from there if they are afraid for their personal safety. IMHO, that is a much better idea than these stupid ideas that do not even come close to adequately addressing AF's cost or revenue problems.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:42 pm

VSMUT wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Regardless of whether you like the name or not, it's different. I don't like it but it's easy to remember, it's 1 syllable. And ultimately if Joon allows AF to avoid becoming the next Alitalia well more power to them.


I keep confusing them with IAGs new LCC Joost. The names are too similar.


What are you talking about? :shock:
 
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GE90man
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:38 am

Part of me believes all this millennials talk is just PR speak for low cost
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:53 am

Millenia want low cost, not a new airline. AF should've gone the UA way and offer an economy minus fare for college kids to go to the beach.
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Aither
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:08 am

FlyRow wrote:
First routes of the cheaper Air France Airline will be:
Paris - Berlin / Porto / Barcelona / Lisbon.


So these are mostly summer destinations starting in autumn.

Makes total sense.
Never trust the obvious
 
SCQ83
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:12 am

Aither wrote:
FlyRow wrote:
First routes of the cheaper Air France Airline will be:
Paris - Berlin / Porto / Barcelona / Lisbon.


So these are mostly summer destinations starting in autumn.

Makes total sense.


Berlin a summer destination? I see them more as city-break (Barcelona and Berlin) / VFR destinations (huge Portuguese diaspora in France).

I can't see many routes "less" millenial than a Paris-Porto (at least you could say Lisbon is a city break as well, and there is less VFR component there for the capital effect), which is basically a VFR route with Portuguese workers in France heading back home to their village in Northern PT.
 
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FlyRow
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:26 am

Barcelona is a year round weekend/holiday break destination as well. I understand the destinations, not the operator.
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ro1960
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:54 am

SCQ83 wrote:

Berlin a summer destination? I see them more as city-break (Barcelona and Berlin) / VFR destinations (huge Portuguese diaspora in France).

I can't see many routes "less" millenial than a Paris-Porto (at least you could say Lisbon is a city break as well, and there is less VFR component there for the capital effect), which is basically a VFR route with Portuguese workers in France heading back home to their village in Northern PT.


It is definitely not aimed at the Portuguese diaspora. These go home once a year in august by car. Lisbonne is just a popular capital destination in Europe like Barcelona or Berlin. AF did their homework.
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SCQ83
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:48 am

ro1960 wrote:
It is definitely not aimed at the Portuguese diaspora. These go home once a year in august by car. Lisbonne is just a popular capital destination in Europe like Barcelona or Berlin. AF did their homework.


I was talking about OPO, not LIS.

LIS has more leisure and less VFR component (since Lisbon is the capital city and less people migrate to other countries; most of the VFR Portuguese diaspora comes from the North - OPO -).

But OPO from France is hard & heavy VFR.
 
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ro1960
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:42 am

SCQ83 wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
It is definitely not aimed at the Portuguese diaspora. These go home once a year in august by car. Lisbonne is just a popular capital destination in Europe like Barcelona or Berlin. AF did their homework.


I was talking about OPO, not LIS.

LIS has more leisure and less VFR component (since Lisbon is the capital city and less people migrate to other countries; most of the VFR Portuguese diaspora comes from the North - OPO -).

But OPO from France is hard & heavy VFR.


Indeed, my bad. However the majority of the diaspora comes from rural areas. When you're a family of 4-5 with lots of bags and goods to bring back to France, driving is preferred although very long. If you fly to OPO you still need to rent a car for a 2-3 hour drive. Not practical nor economical.

But maybe Joon's fares could be appealing to the VFR clientele and make the whole trip worth it.
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TYCOON
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Re: First Joon routes announced

Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:57 am

SCQ83 wrote:
I am completely lost. Some of those routes like Paris to Barcelona and Porto will have Air France, Transavia and now this JOON thing. What is the point?

Btw an article in Inverse making fun of Air France's marketing strategy with this new carrier

https://www.inverse.com/article/34627-j ... illennials

Flyingabout wrote:
You question what's the end game with these haphazard in-house LCCs. Level when there's Vueling? Joon when there's Transavia.


Not similar, Vueling = short haul / LEVEL = long haul.

Also Iberia other that some odd VY route from Madrid does not duplicate carriers between VY/IB.

That would be like IAG flying from, let's say, Barcelona to Berlin with Iberia, Vueling and LEVEL. Total nonsense.


IAG does very much the same, with Iberia Express and Iberia flying same routes... IB Express/Level were set up to benefit from lowering operating costs that IB... so very little difference with the set up here with Joon. And there are a number of routes where IB, IB Express and Vueling fly : Madrid - Ibiza comes to mind... among others. Madrid-Nice flown by both IB and IB Express.... I could go on. So this model has been adopted in the past by others... I don't really see too much difference here.

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