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zkncj
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:20 am

At the end of the day flying is an choice not an right, if you choose to fly in Y then you don't have an right to complain. There is an choice its called PE,J&F which all typically offer more room.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:47 am

This is not about comfort or choices or even personal responsibility.

This is about flight safety. Many Senators and Congressmen think the evacuation certification test process is rigged and doesn't represent a real cabin configuration or a real evacuation.

How do you get out with a limited mobility passenger in the aisle seat?
All posts are just opinions.
 
Judge1310
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:51 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
This is not about comfort or choices or even personal responsibility.

This is about flight safety. Many Senators and Congressmen think the evacuation certification test process is rigged and doesn't represent a real cabin configuration or a real evacuation.

How do you get out with a limited mobility passenger in the aisle seat?


Would you be surprised to learn that there is an actual policy and procedure for this very situation? Every Customer with a Disability is given a special briefing with respect to their particular disability.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:18 am

Judge1310 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
...

How do you get out with a limited mobility passenger in the aisle seat?


Would you be surprised to learn that there is an actual policy and procedure for this very situation? Every Customer with a Disability is given a special briefing with respect to their particular disability.


CC dragging the passenger on a blanket???

Some of these international flights have 30 wheel chair requests. Even if there are 30 CC on that flight, How are they going to help disabled passengers and man all exits and evacuate other passengers? This is not a hypothetical scenario, I want to see any test meeting the 90-second timeline.

Meanwhile, What are the options for souls in the window and middle seats? Wait until CC help the aisle passenger.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Judge1310
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:03 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Judge1310 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
...

How do you get out with a limited mobility passenger in the aisle seat?


Would you be surprised to learn that there is an actual policy and procedure for this very situation? Every Customer with a Disability is given a special briefing with respect to their particular disability.


CC dragging the passenger on a blanket???

Some of these international flights have 30 wheel chair requests. Even if there are 30 CC on that flight, How are they going to help disabled passengers and man all exits and evacuate other passengers? This is not a hypothetical scenario, I want to see any test meeting the 90-second timeline.

Meanwhile, What are the options for souls in the window and middle seats? Wait until CC help the aisle passenger.


Quite a smart-aleck there, eh? :roll:

Since I don't wish to go through all the details involved in such situations, allow me to be brief by saying that the FAs do enlist the assistance of others in the unlikely event of an evacuation. For those seated at middle and window seats, they, based on appropriate ability and willingness to assist in an evacuation of a customer with a disability, will be involved.

That is one of the myriad reasons why Flight Attendant training is 90% safety and emergency procedure oriented...
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:32 am

The introduction of Judge Patricia Millett’s opinion for the court:

This is the Case of the Incredible Shrinking Airline Seat. As many have no doubt noticed, aircraft seats and the spacing between them have been getting smaller and smaller, while American passengers have been growing in size. Paul Hudson and the Flyers Rights group became concerned that this sharp contraction in passenger seating space was endangering the safety, health, and comfort of airline passengers. So they petitioned the Federal Aviation Administration to promulgate rules governing size limitations for aircraft seats to ensure, among other things, that passengers can safely and quickly evacuate a plane in an emergency. The Administration denied the petition, asserting that seat spacing did not affect the safety or speed of passenger evacuations. To support that conclusion, the Administration pointed to (at best) off-point studies and undisclosed tests using unknown parameters. That type of vaporous record will not do—the Administrative Procedure Act requires reasoned decisionmaking grounded in actual evidence. Accordingly, we grant the petition for review in part and remand to the Administration.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:35 am

I don't see why a simple seat size disclosure is not required. If I buy a $1 can of soda, they are required to tell me how big it is. How difficult would a 17.2x31 be? or an 18x28, 18.5x34 etc..?

I have been blind sided by crappy seats before and outdated seat maps on seatguru. I think it's time airlines be required to disclose them as opposed to consumers checking 3rd party websites just to figure out what they might be buying.
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kaneporta1
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:53 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
This is not about comfort or choices or even personal responsibility.

This is about flight safety. Many Senators and Congressmen think the evacuation certification test process is rigged and doesn't represent a real cabin configuration or a real evacuation.

How do you get out with a limited mobility passenger in the aisle seat?


The process is indeed rigged. The evacuation test of an aircraft is usually performed at the max capacity of the aircraft (typically defined by the exit limit). This also means tightest possible pitch. Very few, if any, airlines will ever operate these airplanes at their max capacity. So yeah, the process is rigged against the airlines.
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
 
Varsity1
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:12 am

kaneporta1 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
This is not about comfort or choices or even personal responsibility.

This is about flight safety. Many Senators and Congressmen think the evacuation certification test process is rigged and doesn't represent a real cabin configuration or a real evacuation.

How do you get out with a limited mobility passenger in the aisle seat?


The process is indeed rigged. The evacuation test of an aircraft is usually performed at the max capacity of the aircraft (typically defined by the exit limit). This also means tightest possible pitch. Very few, if any, airlines will ever operate these airplanes at their max capacity. So yeah, the process is rigged against the airlines.


These tests are usually conducted by fit college students. Not an accurate cross section of passengers.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
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seahawk
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:15 am

Jayafe wrote:
seahawk wrote:
I think seat width is purely a matter of comfort.


Your are talking about US or EU "standard-butt-size"? A passenger that can not evacuate due to its size is a security matter for all the passengers


Make arm rest optional and seat width is a smaller problem when it comes to safety. Pitch and aisle width are more of a topic when it comes to moving people within the cabin. FAA and the government should not regulate comfort levels, because this is something the customer can regulate with his wallet.
 
anrec80
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:33 am

grbauc wrote:

For US carriers what about foreign Carries?


For any carrier that wants to operate into the US, say, 5 hr or longer flight.
 
grbauc
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:50 am

anrec80 wrote:
grbauc wrote:

For US carriers what about foreign Carries?


For any carrier that wants to operate into the US, say, 5 hr or longer flight.


This kind of thinking makes me wonder. Do you realize the financial impact. Should we make the subways and trains that run also have a limited amount of people on them. Bart in the bar area can be standing room only? Or buses that allow standing on them that take people to the Rental lot at airports that's unsafe should we make them run 3x the amount of buses? there are tons of things that can be regulated to infinity. I can see the distance between seats for evacuations being given a limit of 30' space.
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:04 am

In response to fares "getting more expensive" if airlines have to remove seats to accommodate for larger seats, is there data to suggest that fares have gotten cheaper as a result of tighter aircraft? Aside from Spirit, what about legacy carriers like American deciding to reduce pitch to add an extra row on their 738s or other?
 
kaneporta1
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:15 am

Varsity1 wrote:

These tests are usually conducted by fit college students. Not an accurate cross section of passengers.


No they are not. Search for evac test videos to see for yourself.

But to everyone who argues that a tight seating configuration is a safety issue I will counter argue that some recent crashes show that an aircraft can be evacuated safely, even despite people taking their belongings with them. Think of the BA, EK, OZ 777 crashes, AF358, AC624 etc. All these flights had pretty bad accidents, yet everyone evacuated these airplanes safely.
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
 
a320fan
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:01 am

29" pitch minimum and 16.8" minimum width is fair to both airlines and consumers.
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parapente
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:13 am

Regarding seat pitch.As one writer said above the 'standard' and old measurements of seats make it impossible to judge real seat pitch.The measurement is taken from the back of the upright to the back of the seat in front.The depth of cushion has (in many cases) reduced enormously often bu 2" or more.So a 28" slimline seat is the same pitch as an old 30" seat.
But it does not stop there.The designers have found extra space by sculpturing the rear element of the seat.For example taking the 'magazine rack' from the lower part of the seat (where your legs are) to the top of the seat.Thus finding a further half to one inch.
All does not mean it's 'ok' it's simply a matter of comparing oranges to oranges.So the measurement definition needs to be changed/standardised so that proper comparisons can be made.At that point ,if required,legislation can be applied to a genuine min pitch.

Seat width is exactly the same.It is measured (I believe) between the arm rests.So the new game is making arm rests thinner and 'gaining' half an inch (sometimes more) to appparent seat width.Southwest did this recently magically making a 737 wider!So once again there has to be a standard measurement that can't be cheated.

But all this is futile without recognising a few facts of nature.The bulk of the Worlds population will not have any trouble as they are not 6ft or weighing over 12-13 stone.The human giants on our planet are North West Europe and North America humans (male).Are we to regulate based on this small ( but rich) minority?
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:05 am

grbauc wrote:
..This kind of thinking makes me wonder. Do you realize the financial impact. Should we make the subways and trains that run also have a limited amount of people on them. Bart in the bar area can be standing room only?...


Subway, train and buses already have a max capacity (including standing places) regulated by safety laws, not sure what your point is.
 
DLPMMM
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:24 pm

dcaviation wrote:
DLPMMM wrote:
travaz wrote:

As I said you have options. If you can't afford the F seat than your options in this case got smaller.


Soooo? Life is full of trade offs and options...if it is that important to you, then you can do research as to the seat pitch and width on each flight on each airline, instead of just choosing the cheapest and then bitching because it is tight and wanting a nanny government to make a useless and costly regulation that will just increase the price you pay for your seat...and then you will bitch about how expensive your new bigger and wider seat is and how it used to be cheaper....

Rant off


Obviously you are trump supporter and voter. I have nothing to say to you. Go and use your useless pessos for your delta upgrades, because i'm pretty sure you don't buy those seats up front.


Since you are wrong on every single assertion that you made above in your personal attack on me, it Is obvious that you are a left wing self absorbed jealous crybaby that feels entitled to that which he has not earned.

I have been Libertarian since the 80's, fly mostly AA and OW, and I do pay for seats upfront myself on International and Transcon flights...short haul I usually get comped upgrades or suck it up.

Maybe when you grow up, you will be able to afford the seats in the pointy end.
 
bigjku
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:44 pm

weekendppl wrote:
bigjku wrote:
The solution to people from other seats encroaching on your space is that the simply be forced to purchase two seats if they can't fit in the standard space.

And how, and when, and by whom, would that be forced? I'm going to force the guy next to me to buy out my seat after I get on and he spills over?


Have the flight attendants throw them off the plane if they can't be moved to where they can fit. Otherwise they can buy two seats before the flight.
 
bigjku
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:47 pm

danman132x wrote:
I myself am 6'5" 220 lbs also and would love to see some sort of regulation. The seat pitch is getting out of hand. A 31 inch minimum is needed, and even at that my knees still rub the seat ahead. If the person rams the seat back, I may very well injury my knees. Sitting on a transatlantic for 8 hours is very uncomfortable for that and we don't always have the luxury of paying more for a premium seat. If every seat was maybe 50 more to have reasonable room, it would be okay. And I'm sure the airlines would still turn profits. I'm flying this November and actually purchased delta economy + for one of my flights, but that's ONLY because I got the flight for cheap, less than 600, on a sale. If I payed full ticket of 1200, there's no way to afford the extra hundred. And that's only 1 of the 3 flights I'm taking, my longest one.

100 extra is still okay, but now with deltas new A350 for example, there will be no more comfort +., but a new business style class which definitely takes it out of affordability. 100 okay maybe sometimes, but not 500+ extra.

Mightve gone on a tangent there, but I'm trying to make a point. Tickets could all increase slightly for a little more leg room for everyone, instead if most economy suffering and a few comfort + seats. It is a safety concern very much so


So to be clear you have special needs and everyone else should pay more so you can be happy?
 
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c933103
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:00 pm

DLPMMM wrote:
travaz wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:

Yep, I am going to take personal responsibility when I PM you every-time I buy a plane ticket so you can eat up the cost between the E- ticket and the F ticket. Sounds like a plan?


As I said you have options. If you can't afford the F seat than your options in this case got smaller.


Soooo? Life is full of trade offs and options...if it is that important to you, then you can do research as to the seat pitch and width on each flight on each airline, instead of just choosing the cheapest and then bitching because it is tight and wanting a nanny government to make a useless and costly regulation that will just increase the price you pay for your seat...and then you will bitch about how expensive your new bigger and wider seat is and how it used to be cheaper....

Rant off

When PY tickets are more than 100% moreexpensive and occupt only ~20% more space and barely any extra weight, that doesn't seems fair, and economy class seats pitch and width for every flights from different airlines aren't that much different from each others.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:49 pm

Even if FAA decides to regulate it will be by 2050.

Mean while Airlines get creative and install two coin slots per seat, one to move the armrest and one for pitch. As you insert more coins, your neighbors will be squeezed or pushed out. Of course, other passengers can outbid and squeeze you. Because there will be no fixed width or pitch, perfectly legal and safe.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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bgm
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:47 pm

weekendppl wrote:
As much as I despise 10-abreast in a 777 (787 9x doesn't seem any better, but I've never spent seven+ hours in one), the bigger safety issue is probably the demonstrated likelihood that people will not leave their carry-on behind in the "unlikely event" of an emergency evacuation.


Exactly. Video footage of recent evacuations see people carrying all their crap with them as they exit the plane.

And to add to that, in the US, they allow people to stow their carryon bags in the exit rows. Yes, you read that right. Mind-boggling.
If you hate wearing a mask, you’re really going to hate using a ventilator.
 
grbauc
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:08 pm

Jayafe wrote:
grbauc wrote:
..This kind of thinking makes me wonder. Do you realize the financial impact. Should we make the subways and trains that run also have a limited amount of people on them. Bart in the bar area can be standing room only?...


Subway, train and buses already have a max capacity (including standing places) regulated by safety laws, not sure what your point is.


That we already have regulation and most people are using the safety shield and wanting to just try and hit the lottery here and thinking they can get first class size seats has a right under safety. On BART its standing room only at prime time from airport through down town what's and how is that safe.
 
Judge1310
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:10 pm

The amount of ignorance/opinion being bandied about here as knowledge/fact has me gobsmacked,

Regarding evacuation certification: do you know how stressed out airlines get when it comes time to certify an aircraft type? Do you all even know what transpires during these events? If you don't then I wholeheartedly invite you to have a seat (or several if you're a large one) and keep your conjecturing whilst the professionals continue to promote and enhance your safety.

Regarding seat size: not everyone is over 6'(2m) and heavy. If I were smaller and lighter I would take great umbrage in knowing that my fare was higher due to some large folks wanting larger seats. Pony up the money for a larger seat that already exists in the aircraft if it's that important to you.
 
grbauc
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:15 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
This is not about comfort or choices or even personal responsibility.

This is about flight safety. Many Senators and Congressmen think the evacuation certification test process is rigged and doesn't represent a real cabin configuration or a real evacuation.

How do you get out with a limited mobility passenger in the aisle seat?


Because it's political a good issue to jump on now with the public social media outrage train.
 
weekendppl
Posts: 106
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:53 pm

Judge1310 wrote:
do you know how stressed out airlines get when it comes time to certify an aircraft type?

Airlines don't certify aircraft types. The FAA does. For the manufacturer. The airlines have almost zero involvement in the type certification process.
Last edited by weekendppl on Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
weekendppl
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:55 pm

bigjku wrote:
weekendppl wrote:
bigjku wrote:
The solution to people from other seats encroaching on your space is that the simply be forced to purchase two seats if they can't fit in the standard space.

And how, and when, and by whom, would that be forced? I'm going to force the guy next to me to buy out my seat after I get on and he spills over?


Have the flight attendants throw them off the plane if they can't be moved to where they can fit. Otherwise they can buy two seats before the flight.

That will be fun to watch.
 
bigjku
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:04 pm

weekendppl wrote:
bigjku wrote:
weekendppl wrote:
And how, and when, and by whom, would that be forced? I'm going to force the guy next to me to buy out my seat after I get on and he spills over?


Have the flight attendants throw them off the plane if they can't be moved to where they can fit. Otherwise they can buy two seats before the flight.

That will be fun to watch.


It would suck for a while and then people would get the message. The same thing needs to happen at sporting events and anywhere else where you pay for a certain seat space. If you don't fit in it, then buy two. Live however you want but as soon as your lifestyle impinges on others you need to be the one to take ownership of the issue and resolve the problem.
 
Judge1310
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:54 pm

weekendppl wrote:
Judge1310 wrote:
do you know how stressed out airlines get when it comes time to certify an aircraft type?

Airlines don't certify aircraft types. The FAA does. For the manufacturer. The airlines have almost zero involvement in the type certification process.


You're right, I mis-"typed". An airline certifies itself to operate an aircraft type by demonstrating to respective governmental entities that it can safely operate the aircraft during standard and emergency procedures. My apologies if you weren't aware of this distinction by your not interpolating further from what was typed.
 
weekendppl
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:08 pm

Judge1310 wrote:
My apologies if you weren't aware of this distinction by your not interpolating further from what was typed.

I'm aware of the distinction. Twice you've asserted (mis-typed) that the evacuation certification test was somehow a burden on the (always over-burdened?) airlines. Right before going off about ignorance in the thread. I just wanted to make sure you were aware of who certifies the aircraft for the evacuation requirement. And who doesn't.
 
Judge1310
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:36 pm

Now you're putting words in my mouth (so to speak). Evac certs aren't necessarily a "burden" for an airline. It just requires a certain level of effort to be able to operate a new aircraft type. I'm fully aware of which entity certifies an aircraft for an evac requirement having been a part of several efforts/teams to do so in the past.

If you're seeking to be antagonistic here, please redirect your energy elsewhere as it's particularly tiresome to deal with and brings nothing new or constructive to the topic at hand...
 
OB1504
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:06 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
Like I said, I am going to PM you everytime I buy a plane ticket. I'll have the money for the E ticket, and you and others on this forum can pay me the difference the first class ticket costs.


As opposed to having the government set seat sizes and having airfares go up for everyone? You still wouldn't be able to afford the bigger seat, except then none of us would have the cheaper option of a smaller seat.
 
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Keith2004
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:08 pm

Judge1310 wrote:
Regarding seat size: not everyone is over 6'(2m) and heavy. If I were smaller and lighter I would take great umbrage in knowing that my fare was higher due to some large folks wanting larger seats. Pony up the money for a larger seat that already exists in the aircraft if it's that important to you.


Exactly

So many people in here saying
I'm 6'5, 6'3....200 lbs....

That is not representative of the average passenger so why should they be subsidizing above average sized passengers??

The backlash AA got when they tried to go to 29" pitch proves there is some limit, if planes got below a certain pitch consumers would vote with their wallets.

For the record I'm 6' and 190
 
CO953
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:34 pm

Two broad points to make here:

1. I agree that market forces should be the prevailing influences on commerce. However I think most would agree that SOME degree of regulation has always been needed, to cover the gray area where purely market-based outcomes have resulted in recurring controversy. Some examples:

A. Seat belt laws in cars. B. Marked fire exits and occupancy limits in commercial buildings. C. Restricted sales of dynamite to the general public. All three examples deal with public health hazards not adequately dealt with by market forces. I think that with airline seating, there is a case to be made that reduction of space beyond a certain point, resulting in restricted movement, can be linked to deep-vein thrombosis (DVT), impeded exit in an emergency, exacerbation of common skeletal and associated neurological conditions due to overly cramped conditions, and other assorted negative impacts on even marginally disabled people.

2. I believe that a direct correlation could easily be drawn between increasing bad/violent/problem behavior on airplanes - which has the potential to endanger passengers, crew and aircraft - and the inexorable reduction of personal space available to each non-first-class/business passenger.

Add that social component to the physical component listed above, and the result is that market forces - especially due to the reconsolidation of the industry into a few large carriers which is coming closer and closer to erasing the spirit of the 1978 deregulation act in the U.S. - have led us to a point of widespead complaints of cramping and abysmal customer comfort which the industry market forces so far are NOT improving.

If the major airlines don't soon recognize and reverse enough of the uncomfortable physical and psychological box they are shoving passengers into (and no, it's not reasonable to counter with the "free-market" excuse that a passenger is free to take an ocean liner from New York to Southhampton or a crosscountry multi-day train or bus journey from Los Angeles to Philadelphia), then there is a case to be made for re-regulation, as far as I'm concerned. As far as I'm concerned, the big carriers had better wake up and realize that they are getting close enough to monopoly that it won't take much for a populist uprising to join forces with a grandstanding politican to demand re-regulation and take away their cake.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:22 pm

kaneporta1 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

These tests are usually conducted by fit college students. Not an accurate cross section of passengers.


No they are not. Search for evac test videos to see for yourself.

But to everyone who argues that a tight seating configuration is a safety issue I will counter argue that some recent crashes show that an aircraft can be evacuated safely, even despite people taking their belongings with them. Think of the BA, EK, OZ 777 crashes, AF358, AC624 etc. All these flights had pretty bad accidents, yet everyone evacuated these airplanes safely.


I checked a couple of evac test videos They appear to be aircraft manufacturer employees. Also, haven't seen any physically challenged individuals used in the test.Haven't seen any morbidly overweight person.

The test group was also prepared to evacuate which is different from real life scenario and being related to aircraft manufacturer they may be well versed with the cabin layout. They also have a motive to make the test a success and get the certification. Is it my tin hat talking?

In most cases, it was self-evacuation with some verbal guidance from CC, Passengers were lucky. EK521 was at 70%?? can't remember.

Hypothesize a combination of EK521 type fire and SQ368 type total dysfunctional flight crew, cabin crew and fire rescue.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Theseus
Posts: 265
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Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:33 pm

Keith2004 wrote:
So many people in here saying
I'm 6'5, 6'3....200 lbs....


It could be that people in that size range care more for the topic than "the average passenger".
Height is not chosen. Weight may in some cases be the result of lifestyle, but for many people, it is not.

As a "way taller than average" person, I am ok with paying a bit more to have a bit more space, but the problem is that things do not seem to always go that way. On long haul flights I take, it is often "put up with a cheap and crappy Y seat" or "splurge for a J-like Y+ seat for 4x the price"... If paying 10% more for 10% more space was an option, I am sure many here would be ok...
 
bigjku
Posts: 1906
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:51 pm

Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:37 pm

CO953

On point one you really only have a valid issue if flying coach is the only option offered. It isn't. What you are arguing for isn't safety, it's subsidization. People have overwhelmingly come out for the lowest fares possible. You are asking them all to subsidize what some want or need because those people choose not to pay for Moreno expensive but available seating.

On point two I could probably more convincingly tie behavior issues to any number of things aside from reduced space.

As for re regulating the airlines I am sure you can get the public to support any nonsense. The public is stupid. But the regulated and protected airlines are long term losers and money sucks for the public everywhere they exist. While there may in some markets be less competition the barriers for such competition are so much lower in the US that prices are constrained even if someone doesn't open a direct competing route.
 
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Keith2004
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:59 am

Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:40 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Airline tickets should be required to list seat dimensions, much like soda bottle show volume.


Well this is a step in that direction, however I don't think it would change consumer behavior in a meaningful way even if it was universal

Consumers will continue to focus on price as #1 factor

https://thepointsguy.com/2017/07/google-flights-legroom-extension/
 
weekendppl
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:59 am

Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:18 pm

Judge1310 wrote:
Now you're putting words in my mouth (so to speak).

I apologize. I was incorrectly remembering who posted that the evacuation deminstration "process is rigged against the airlines".
 
SCAT15F
Posts: 719
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:34 am

Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:59 pm

They can start by permenantly banning slimline seats. Having to fly in a glorified folding chair is inexcusable. The airlines need to be regulated in this area. All they care about is money, not providing good customer service. They will only provide good customer service if there is money in it, hence they need to be forced- particularly when they are reaping record profits and still complain about any hint of regulation.

If you think for one minute that banning slimline seats will cause financial hardship for the airlines or make the cost per seat (for the airline) rise to anything approaching business class levels, you're delusional.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15117
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:10 pm

Let us not forget that it is very likely in the USA due to the one-party control of the Federal Government that is mainly linked to a pro-business policy, this will get quashed by the FAA. I recall some flights on charters back in the 1980's where at 5'4"/65 cm with probably 28" pitch that were tight for me. I would like to see studies made of if increases in physical problems (like DVT) from tighter seating and the next time there is a major survivor crash on land of if seat pitch makes a difference in timely evacuation.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2202
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:42 pm

kaneporta1 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

These tests are usually conducted by fit college students. Not an accurate cross section of passengers.


No they are not. Search for evac test videos to see for yourself.

But to everyone who argues that a tight seating configuration is a safety issue I will counter argue that some recent crashes show that an aircraft can be evacuated safely, even despite people taking their belongings with them. Think of the BA, EK, OZ 777 crashes, AF358, AC624 etc. All these flights had pretty bad accidents, yet everyone evacuated these airplanes safely.


You're dead wrong. Airbus uses local university students.

I joined more than 1,000 volunteers, drawn 50/50 from Airbus employees and local gymnasium members, who took part in the evacuation test at Airbus’s Finkenwerder plant in Hamburg on 26 March.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... in-205793/
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
GoSharks
Posts: 150
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:23 am

Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:01 am

Varsity1 wrote:
kaneporta1 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

These tests are usually conducted by fit college students. Not an accurate cross section of passengers.


No they are not. Search for evac test videos to see for yourself.

But to everyone who argues that a tight seating configuration is a safety issue I will counter argue that some recent crashes show that an aircraft can be evacuated safely, even despite people taking their belongings with them. Think of the BA, EK, OZ 777 crashes, AF358, AC624 etc. All these flights had pretty bad accidents, yet everyone evacuated these airplanes safely.


You're dead wrong. Airbus uses local university students.

I joined more than 1,000 volunteers, drawn 50/50 from Airbus employees and local gymnasium members, who took part in the evacuation test at Airbus’s Finkenwerder plant in Hamburg on 26 March.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... in-205793/

If you actually read your own link, you would quickly find that you are wrong.

EASA and FAA regulations require that 35% of the participants must be aged over 50, a minimum 40% must be female, and 15% female and over 50.
 
CO953
Posts: 523
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:05 am

Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:15 am

bigjku wrote:
CO953

On point one you really only have a valid issue if flying coach is the only option offered. It isn't. What you are arguing for isn't safety, it's subsidization. People have overwhelmingly come out for the lowest fares possible. You are asking them all to subsidize what some want or need because those people choose not to pay for Moreno expensive but available seating.


Hey, thanks for the response. I'm busy with some work outside so let me just give a quick response to the first part of your response.

It comes down to monopoly. We haven't had any serious monopoly battles in the USA since Ma Bell was broken up in 1984 as basically the sole long-distance telephone long-distance provider?

Is it subsidization that I have only one local home garbage collector in my area, and that the price keeps going up and up, and if I don't pay it they can actually put a lien on my house and finally come and put me in handcuffs and drag me off the land I own?

Is it subsidization that I have only one landline telephone provider in my area, which I choose to continue because during hurricanes in my area the landline can be a critical safety line, because cell-phone towers quickly fail due to traffic overload ... and that the price keeps going up and up, with no alternative?

Is it subsidization that in many states the health-care insurance providers have been pared down to one, and if you don't buy their product you are hit with a fine (not a tax), and the prices soar up and up and up with no relief in sight?

Is it subsidization that unless I have the extra money for a first-class seat I am being crammed into a smaller and smaller space, with no indication that the industry hears one word of complaint, and no relief in sight?

I'm telling you, America is ripe for a return of Teddy-Roosevelt-style monopoly battles, led by angry non-politicians such as the next populist Senator from the state of Michigan, Robert "Kid Rock" Ritchie.

These things go in cycles. Were I running an airline, I would feel more comfortable trying to get ahead of the curve and finding a way to minimize the price of giving enough extra space to alleve some of this, and trumpeting this with an awesome advertising campaign. I see an opening a mile wide right now for an airline that touts its amenities, admits to the customer that it will be a little more expensive, and then makes Job #1 figuring out how to efficiently do so and keep the costs within the reach of the average flyer, who will gladly pay extra to be treated like a human again. That's better than letting a blunderbuss government finally call the shots and end up with a bad solution. I'm just saying, the current state of passenger accommodation cannot continue.

A smart airline industry leads the way forward. A stubborn airline industry keeps on cruising along until the calendar reads 1978 and gets smacked sideways by government intervention.

People are angry in America and growing angrier.

Where the heck is Freddie Laker, but this time selling just enough luxury to cold-cock the competition?
 
nry
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:42 pm

Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:45 am

Super80Fan wrote:
Like I said, I am going to PM you everytime I buy a plane ticket. I'll have the money for the E ticket, and you and others on this forum can pay me the difference the first class ticket costs.


Conversely, if new regulation is implemented, which increases the price of my economy seat, I should PM you everytime so you can pay me the difference between what it used to cost and what you're making me pay.
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AUxyz
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:27 am

Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:50 am

Varsity1 wrote:
kaneporta1 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

These tests are usually conducted by fit college students. Not an accurate cross section of passengers.


No they are not. Search for evac test videos to see for yourself.

But to everyone who argues that a tight seating configuration is a safety issue I will counter argue that some recent crashes show that an aircraft can be evacuated safely, even despite people taking their belongings with them. Think of the BA, EK, OZ 777 crashes, AF358, AC624 etc. All these flights had pretty bad accidents, yet everyone evacuated these airplanes safely.


You're dead wrong. Airbus uses local university students.

I joined more than 1,000 volunteers, drawn 50/50 from Airbus employees and local gymnasium members, who took part in the evacuation test at Airbus’s Finkenwerder plant in Hamburg on 26 March.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... in-205793/



It would be awesome if somebody could go into a little more detail on the evacuation rules or post a link to them directly.

The article referenced above says that the A380 test used seats at 30" pitch. Have full-scale tests been conducted with lower pitched seats? Similarly, were the 777 and 787 tested at 10 and 9 seats across respectively?

On some aircraft (example the proposed American Airlines plane), it seems like the total number of seats is staying the same, but some at the front of the aircraft are being made bigger while those at the back are shoved together more tightly. To a lay observer, it seems like in addition to paying for improved space, business class passengers are buying enhanced safety. I expect that although Americans are becoming willing to pay more for luxury, egalitarian ideals are such that people don't want their to be a perceived difference in safety.
 
tjh8402
Posts: 957
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:20 am

Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:02 am

The sense of entitlement some people have is pretty amazing. If you want a bigger seat, those are readily available on the planes, even on spirit. If it's too narrow, buy a second seat. If you can't afford it, oh well. There's a lot of comfort and luxuries I wish I could afford but I don't ask others to subsidize for me. Nothing has actually changed that much since the "golden age" of flying as far as space in comfort go other than cheaper options are now available for those who couldn't previously afford them as well as a whole lot more entertainment amenities being offered to everybody. Seat width on a 787 or 737 is the same as it was on a 707. Seat pitch is about the same in E+, which, amazingly, when adjusted for inflation, is pretty close to what the similarly sized economy seats used to be. Tight seats like we have today didn't exist back then because tickets for the sort of cheap prices we have today didn't exist back then.
 
CO953
Posts: 523
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:05 am

Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:34 am

tjh8402 wrote:
The sense of entitlement some people have is pretty amazing. If you want a bigger seat, those are readily available on the planes, even on spirit. If it's too narrow, buy a second seat. If you can't afford it, oh well. There's a lot of comfort and luxuries I wish I could afford but I don't ask others to subsidize for me. Nothing has actually changed that much since the "golden age" of flying as far as space in comfort go other than cheaper options are now available for those who couldn't previously afford them as well as a whole lot more entertainment amenities being offered to everybody. Seat width on a 787 or 737 is the same as it was on a 707. Seat pitch is about the same in E+, which, amazingly, when adjusted for inflation, is pretty close to what the similarly sized economy seats used to be. Tight seats like we have today didn't exist back then because tickets for the sort of cheap prices we have today didn't exist back then.


Yep, people are the same size and width as they were in 1958. I see this every day at Wal-Mart.

And more people today have the extra money to buy a second seat after paying more for their self-pay health-care premium than they pay for their rent.

And entertainment options make me feel great about my pinched nerve and washing my neighbor's sweat out of my clothes.

And, just like in 1958, the people running the airlines today have the common sense not to try to shoe-horn customers in like pieces of chopped meat on a conveyor belt headed for a tin.

It's just that adults today are whiners and not tough and they haven't tried hard enough to fold in their fingers and ears and elbows and knees and toes because they are soft excuses for the die-hard customers of yesteryear, and don't have what it takes to survive in today's airlines. Folks in the '70s complained about the airlines just as much as today, and the first 30 minutes of every family reunion was devoted to detailing how awful the travel experience was.

Yep.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2202
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: Seat size regulations in the US

Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:28 am

GoSharks wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
kaneporta1 wrote:

No they are not. Search for evac test videos to see for yourself.

But to everyone who argues that a tight seating configuration is a safety issue I will counter argue that some recent crashes show that an aircraft can be evacuated safely, even despite people taking their belongings with them. Think of the BA, EK, OZ 777 crashes, AF358, AC624 etc. All these flights had pretty bad accidents, yet everyone evacuated these airplanes safely.


You're dead wrong. Airbus uses local university students.

I joined more than 1,000 volunteers, drawn 50/50 from Airbus employees and local gymnasium members, who took part in the evacuation test at Airbus’s Finkenwerder plant in Hamburg on 26 March.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... in-205793/

If you actually read your own link, you would quickly find that you are wrong.

EASA and FAA regulations require that 35% of the participants must be aged over 50, a minimum 40% must be female, and 15% female and over 50.



Where am I wrong. Clearly cites using university students. Some older airbus employees got to participate, probably in great shape themselves.

The people who can afford to fly, and often do fly are older.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..

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