777klm
Topic Author
Posts: 550
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:23 am

No AF/KL to Baltic states (RIX, TLL, VNO)

Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:47 am

Going to TLL for work in two weeks and I was surprised the only non/stop KL-coded flight AMS-TLL option is operated by BT.
All AF/KL service from their CDG/AMS hubs are operated by BT. Other major European carriers do operate their own metal to the Baltics (LH, LO, BA to name few).
Obviously the main reason for AF/KL not to operate their own metal is money, but I wonder if there's any future potential for the company to fly to the Baltics, an economically growing region.
Thoughts?
Home airport: AMS
Next flight: CNX - BKK
 
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Dutchy
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Re: No AF/KL to Baltic states (RIX, TLL, VNO)

Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:54 am

Perhaps if the passenger flow allows for it, but they are doing fine with codesharing. Small marked I guess.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
smbukas
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Re: No AF/KL to Baltic states (RIX, TLL, VNO)

Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:00 am

You should also say there is no BA in Baltics too - it is only 2x weekly LHR-TLL service, which started this year, not suitable for connections, more looks like slot-sitter leisure route from British Airways.

Actually, historically, KLM was in RIX and TLL. They had 2x daily Fokker 70/100 service to both RIX and TLL and they suspended some time in 2009.

They have never been in VNO, historically, they codeshared with LAL/flyLAL.

After KLM left RIX and TLL, they started codeshering, BT in RIX, OV in TLL. On VNO they codeshared Estonian Air (they operated such route), then Air Lituanica. No neither OV, neither TE, neither LT is in the business, so they moved to codesharing with BT on all Baltics.

Air France was never in Baltics.

I think, the core reason is distance, why there are no AF/KL/BA/IB/Alitalia in Baltics. Feeder service works on routes <2hours, so main airlines feeding from Baltics are LH, SK, AY, LO and some other. For longer routes, you also need high yield O-D traffic, which very low from the Baltics and price sensitive, so mostly covered by FR and W6.
 
factsonly
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Re: No AF/KL to Baltic states (RIX, TLL, VNO)

Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:15 am

Air Baltic has been a KL/AF partner ever since AF/KL halted its own operations to RIX, TLL from AMS.

Today Air Baltic operates to/from the 3x Baltic states Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania in close partnership with AF/KL:

- 4x daily frequencies to AMS on 3x routes TLL, RIX, VNO.
- Up to 3x daily to CDG on 3x routes TLL, RIX, VNO.

- TLL-AMS BT B737 daily
- TLL-CDG BT B737 4x weekly

- RIX-AMS BT C100 2x daily (1x sat, sun)
- RIX-CDG BT C100 10x weekly

- VNO-AMS BT B737 1x daily
- VNO-CDG BT B737 4x weekly

Air Baltic also codeshares on AF/KL to other European destinations:

- AMS-BHX 5x daily BT codeshare on KL metal
- AMS-MAN 5x daily BT codeshare on KL metal
- AMS-EDI 5x daily BT codeshare on KL metal

Operating in partnership seems to be more cost effective for both AF/KL and BT.
 
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Revelation
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Re: No AF/KL to Baltic states (RIX, TLL, VNO)

Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:08 am

Mom's going back to the Old Country in a few days and the route of choice seems to be TPA - FRA - VNO on LH but it seems there is work going on in VNO so she will end up in Kaunas instead. I think most of the US Diaspora would not think of using AF to connect to the Baltics, but my mom's generation still use travel agents and if they put her on AF she'd be fine with that.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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albertocsc
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Re: No AF/KL to Baltic states (RIX, TLL, VNO)

Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:02 pm

One of the launch routes of I2 was MAD-RIX. But it seems it didn't go well, it was cancelled two or three seasons after. Now Baltics are served from Madrid by FR (VNO) since 2015 and BT (RIX) as a recent addition.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: No AF/KL to Baltic states (RIX, TLL, VNO)

Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:22 pm

A lot of LCC traffic to the Baltics indeed (Ryanair, Wizzair) which makes it hard for legacies to compete. Air Baltic seems to be doing fine due to the codeshares with a lot of legacies. Without codeshares most of their routes wouldn't be sustainable.
 
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shamrock350
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Re: No AF/KL to Baltic states (RIX, TLL, VNO)

Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:48 pm

The Lufthansa Group airlines and obviously Aeroflot seem to have a decent offering to the Baltic States, I always notice the Lufthansa A321 in VNO and there's also SK and LO but everything else is low cost dominated and anything further afield is difficult to make work unless your Ryanair of Wizz Air.

Revelation wrote:
Mom's going back to the Old Country in a few days and the route of choice seems to be TPA - FRA - VNO on LH but it seems there is work going on in VNO so she will end up in Kaunas instead. I think most of the US Diaspora would not think of using AF to connect to the Baltics, but my mom's generation still use travel agents and if they put her on AF she'd be fine with that.

VNO is having its runway resurfaced and Kaunas has taken over almost all flying. In preparation KUN has its own taxiways and ramp resurfaced and new temporary terminals constructed either side of the current building, basically its just two tents with one acting as departures and the other as arrivals while the original terminal also saw some improvements. Even the main road from Kaunas to Vilnius was upgraded, all work was completed about a week before the switch making the transition as easy as possible.

Everything appears to be working quite well so far, no major delays, the airlines are happy and passenger are well advised in how to get to and from Kaunas to Vilnius.
 
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Revelation
Posts: 21943
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: No AF/KL to Baltic states (RIX, TLL, VNO)

Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:50 pm

shamrock350 wrote:
VNO is having its runway resurfaced and Kaunas has taken over almost all flying. In preparation KUN has its own taxiways and ramp resurfaced and new temporary terminals constructed either side of the current building, basically its just two tents with one acting as departures and the other as arrivals while the original terminal also saw some improvements. Even the main road from Kaunas to Vilnius was upgraded, all work was completed about a week before the switch making the transition as easy as possible.

Everything appears to be working quite well so far, no major delays, the airlines are happy and passenger are well advised in how to get to and from Kaunas to Vilnius.

Thanks for the detailed info! Seems her destination is closer to KUN than VNO anyway, so she's happy for the temporary shift in service!
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own

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