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FLALEFTY
Posts: 1325
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:40 am

joeblow10 wrote:
mikejepp wrote:
There is no way it makes financial sense to pay regional pilots that much to fly 50 seat planes at $100+/barrel oil when you could be paying them the same to fly A320s and 737s. Is it even possible for the airline to show a profit on these flights under these circumstances? What are the chances that this is the beginning of the end of the regional airline outsourcing business model? Not to mention there are not really any new RJs being built as replacements and, with a limited supply of pilots, you want them flying as many passengers as possible per flight. Is this deal just a stop-gap measure to allow a few years to wind-down the whole regional airline operation?

Especially considering the fact that other regionals will, no doubt, match these pay raises and therefore eliminate the advantage Piedmont/Envoy have in retention... now you're back to where you started but paying much much more. I've read Endeavor is already in talks with management about this and I'm sure others too.

The whole regional model was built on the idea that there were more pilots than there were jobs and they could, therefore, take advantage of these pilots' eagerness to work and build hours and consequently pay them poverty wages. The airlines did that long enough that word got out and fewer people started becoming pilots and now the whole thing is backfiring. The environment of cheap, exploitable pilot labor is now obviously over.


The assumption you mention that other regionals will match this increase is the big question that will have to be answered. At least from an outsider point of view, the only other regional that will likely immediately match this is Endeavor. Non wholly owned regionals have a very different “accounting” arrangement with the mainline companies, one that is going to be a lot harder to make huge pay increase work.

It seems that AA is willing to make regional flying a loss leader. It gets pilots in the door, and if they pay them enough, they will stick around long enough to fly for AA - perhaps for life. It also gets customers into their actually profitable network from smaller cities. So I agree - the economics don’t make a ton of sense on the surface, but it seems like this is a rather good solution to retaining pilots and customers. I bet Endeavor matches within a few months… but otherwise, it’s going to be tough for companies like Skywest or Mesa make this work unless the big guys up their cut.


Over at Airline Pilot Central the new Envoy and Piedmont (f.k.a. Henson Aviation) deals are shown and seem pretty confusing. Lots of bonuses (one time?), pay rate juggling, better reserve duty terms, holiday pay bonuses, better deadhead pay, et. al.

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... /envoy_air

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... t_airlines

Meanwhile Mesa (which does not have an exactly arm's-length relationship with AA) provides a considerable amount of American Eagle lift at some of the lowest pay rates in the industry. If they don't follow suit with the better pay/bonus deals offered by Envoy or Piedmont, will they end up flying even more Eagle routes due to being cheaper?

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... a_airlines
 
Vctony
Posts: 794
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 1999 10:51 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:56 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
mikejepp wrote:
There is no way it makes financial sense to pay regional pilots that much to fly 50 seat planes at $100+/barrel oil when you could be paying them the same to fly A320s and 737s. Is it even possible for the airline to show a profit on these flights under these circumstances? What are the chances that this is the beginning of the end of the regional airline outsourcing business model? Not to mention there are not really any new RJs being built as replacements and, with a limited supply of pilots, you want them flying as many passengers as possible per flight. Is this deal just a stop-gap measure to allow a few years to wind-down the whole regional airline operation?

Especially considering the fact that other regionals will, no doubt, match these pay raises and therefore eliminate the advantage Piedmont/Envoy have in retention... now you're back to where you started but paying much much more. I've read Endeavor is already in talks with management about this and I'm sure others too.

The whole regional model was built on the idea that there were more pilots than there were jobs and they could, therefore, take advantage of these pilots' eagerness to work and build hours and consequently pay them poverty wages. The airlines did that long enough that word got out and fewer people started becoming pilots and now the whole thing is backfiring. The environment of cheap, exploitable pilot labor is now obviously over.


The assumption you mention that other regionals will match this increase is the big question that will have to be answered. At least from an outsider point of view, the only other regional that will likely immediately match this is Endeavor. Non wholly owned regionals have a very different “accounting” arrangement with the mainline companies, one that is going to be a lot harder to make huge pay increase work.

It seems that AA is willing to make regional flying a loss leader. It gets pilots in the door, and if they pay them enough, they will stick around long enough to fly for AA - perhaps for life. It also gets customers into their actually profitable network from smaller cities. So I agree - the economics don’t make a ton of sense on the surface, but it seems like this is a rather good solution to retaining pilots and customers. I bet Endeavor matches within a few months… but otherwise, it’s going to be tough for companies like Skywest or Mesa make this work unless the big guys up their cut.


Over at Airline Pilot Central the new Envoy and Piedmont (f.k.a. Henson Aviation) deals are shown and seem pretty confusing. Lots of bonuses (one time?), pay rate juggling, better reserve duty terms, holiday pay bonuses, better deadhead pay, et. al.

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... /envoy_air

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... t_airlines

Meanwhile Mesa (which does not have an exactly arm's-length relationship with AA) provides a considerable amount of American Eagle lift at some of the lowest pay rates in the industry. If they don't follow suit with the better pay/bonus deals offered by Envoy or Piedmont, will they end up flying even more Eagle routes due to being cheaper?

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... a_airlines


I was under the impression that Mesa's relationship with AA is going the way of the dodo bird. More and more PHX Eagle operations seem to be switching to OO (E175 and CR7) and I believe the same is true at DFW (except flights moving to MQ versus OO). Mesa can't staff or maintain its current fleet and its reliability is in the toilet.
 
JohanTally
Posts: 880
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:44 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:02 am

Vctony wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:

The assumption you mention that other regionals will match this increase is the big question that will have to be answered. At least from an outsider point of view, the only other regional that will likely immediately match this is Endeavor. Non wholly owned regionals have a very different “accounting” arrangement with the mainline companies, one that is going to be a lot harder to make huge pay increase work.

It seems that AA is willing to make regional flying a loss leader. It gets pilots in the door, and if they pay them enough, they will stick around long enough to fly for AA - perhaps for life. It also gets customers into their actually profitable network from smaller cities. So I agree - the economics don’t make a ton of sense on the surface, but it seems like this is a rather good solution to retaining pilots and customers. I bet Endeavor matches within a few months… but otherwise, it’s going to be tough for companies like Skywest or Mesa make this work unless the big guys up their cut.


Over at Airline Pilot Central the new Envoy and Piedmont (f.k.a. Henson Aviation) deals are shown and seem pretty confusing. Lots of bonuses (one time?), pay rate juggling, better reserve duty terms, holiday pay bonuses, better deadhead pay, et. al.

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... /envoy_air

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... t_airlines

Meanwhile Mesa (which does not have an exactly arm's-length relationship with AA) provides a considerable amount of American Eagle lift at some of the lowest pay rates in the industry. If they don't follow suit with the better pay/bonus deals offered by Envoy or Piedmont, will they end up flying even more Eagle routes due to being cheaper?

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... a_airlines


I was under the impression that Mesa's relationship with AA is going the way of the dodo bird. More and more PHX Eagle operations seem to be switching to OO (E175 and CR7) and I believe the same is true at DFW (except flights moving to MQ versus OO). Mesa can't staff or maintain its current fleet and its reliability is in the toilet.

5% of their pilots left in April and I presume the same scenario will continue at least through the summer.

https://mentourpilot.com/mesa-airlines- ... n-a-month/
 
USAirKid
Posts: 1292
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:18 am

Vctony wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:

The assumption you mention that other regionals will match this increase is the big question that will have to be answered. At least from an outsider point of view, the only other regional that will likely immediately match this is Endeavor. Non wholly owned regionals have a very different “accounting” arrangement with the mainline companies, one that is going to be a lot harder to make huge pay increase work.

It seems that AA is willing to make regional flying a loss leader. It gets pilots in the door, and if they pay them enough, they will stick around long enough to fly for AA - perhaps for life. It also gets customers into their actually profitable network from smaller cities. So I agree - the economics don’t make a ton of sense on the surface, but it seems like this is a rather good solution to retaining pilots and customers. I bet Endeavor matches within a few months… but otherwise, it’s going to be tough for companies like Skywest or Mesa make this work unless the big guys up their cut.


Over at Airline Pilot Central the new Envoy and Piedmont (f.k.a. Henson Aviation) deals are shown and seem pretty confusing. Lots of bonuses (one time?), pay rate juggling, better reserve duty terms, holiday pay bonuses, better deadhead pay, et. al.

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... /envoy_air

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... t_airlines

Meanwhile Mesa (which does not have an exactly arm's-length relationship with AA) provides a considerable amount of American Eagle lift at some of the lowest pay rates in the industry. If they don't follow suit with the better pay/bonus deals offered by Envoy or Piedmont, will they end up flying even more Eagle routes due to being cheaper?

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... a_airlines


I was under the impression that Mesa's relationship with AA is going the way of the dodo bird. More and more PHX Eagle operations seem to be switching to OO (E175 and CR7) and I believe the same is true at DFW (except flights moving to MQ versus OO). Mesa can't staff or maintain its current fleet and its reliability is in the toilet.


Agreed. And hasn’t AA usually exercised every option to reduce Mesa’s flying?
 
airlineworker
Posts: 563
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:20 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 12, 2022 2:45 am

JohanTally wrote:
brooklynchris13 wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
With this agreement through 2029 I really wonder what Piedmont expects to be flying at this point because the E145 fleet will be in the desert by then most likely.


This agreement just makes me suspect it is more likely that the ultimate play is to fold Envoy and Piedmont together. As the 145 fleet winds down, those pilots will more easily transition to the 170/175 and whatever else may be around to replace the 50 seat flying.

How much nostalgia does AA have towards the Envoy brand because I doubt they want to lose the Piedmont namesake?


https://nbc-2.com/features/travel/2022/ ... -from-rsw/

As Shakespeare said, "whats in a name?". Piedmont has long been forgotten and holds no appeal with travelers. Names for regional airlines are not important, it's the connection with the legacy carrier that matters.
 
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JBo
Posts: 1928
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:23 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:06 am

airlineworker wrote:
As Shakespeare said, "whats in a name?". Piedmont has long been forgotten and holds no appeal with travelers. Names for regional airlines are not important, it's the connection with the legacy carrier that matters.


"Piedmont Airlines" might not mean anything to modern travelers, but AA might still hold enough value in it to preserve the trademark so no one else can use it to start/rename an airline.

That said, consolidation between AA's wholly owned regionals is inevitable. It's a lot of unnecessary administrative overhead to maintain three separate regional carriers with separate workgroups. Piedmont will probably fold into Envoy as the 145s are permanently retired, and then once that process has digested they'll probably fold PSA in as well.
 
JohanTally
Posts: 880
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:44 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:09 am

airlineworker wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
brooklynchris13 wrote:

This agreement just makes me suspect it is more likely that the ultimate play is to fold Envoy and Piedmont together. As the 145 fleet winds down, those pilots will more easily transition to the 170/175 and whatever else may be around to replace the 50 seat flying.

How much nostalgia does AA have towards the Envoy brand because I doubt they want to lose the Piedmont namesake?


https://nbc-2.com/features/travel/2022/ ... -from-rsw/

As Shakespeare said, "whats in a name?". Piedmont has long been forgotten and holds no appeal with travelers. Names for regional airlines are not important, it's the connection with the legacy carrier that matters.

Whenever I'm wearing Piedmont Airlines gear I quite frequently get told anecdotal stories from strangers on how much they miss flying on them. It was a pretty significant operation on the East coast and people held an extremely favorable view of the airline which is why they still use it's namesake today especially on the East coast. At it's highest point they employed over 20k and operated TATL flights on 767s. Not sure how low cost startup Breeze flying between markets that don't currently have direct flights really applies.
 
silentbob
Posts: 1674
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:42 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
mikejepp wrote:
There is no way it makes financial sense to pay regional pilots that much to fly 50 seat planes at $100+/barrel oil when you could be paying them the same to fly A320s and 737s. Is it even possible for the airline to show a profit on these flights under these circumstances? What are the chances that this is the beginning of the end of the regional airline outsourcing business model? Not to mention there are not really any new RJs being built as replacements and, with a limited supply of pilots, you want them flying as many passengers as possible per flight. Is this deal just a stop-gap measure to allow a few years to wind-down the whole regional airline operation?

Especially considering the fact that other regionals will, no doubt, match these pay raises and therefore eliminate the advantage Piedmont/Envoy have in retention... now you're back to where you started but paying much much more. I've read Endeavor is already in talks with management about this and I'm sure others too.

The whole regional model was built on the idea that there were more pilots than there were jobs and they could, therefore, take advantage of these pilots' eagerness to work and build hours and consequently pay them poverty wages. The airlines did that long enough that word got out and fewer people started becoming pilots and now the whole thing is backfiring. The environment of cheap, exploitable pilot labor is now obviously over.


The assumption you mention that other regionals will match this increase is the big question that will have to be answered. At least from an outsider point of view, the only other regional that will likely immediately match this is Endeavor. Non wholly owned regionals have a very different “accounting” arrangement with the mainline companies, one that is going to be a lot harder to make huge pay increase work.

It seems that AA is willing to make regional flying a loss leader. It gets pilots in the door, and if they pay them enough, they will stick around long enough to fly for AA - perhaps for life. It also gets customers into their actually profitable network from smaller cities. So I agree - the economics don’t make a ton of sense on the surface, but it seems like this is a rather good solution to retaining pilots and customers. I bet Endeavor matches within a few months… but otherwise, it’s going to be tough for companies like Skywest or Mesa make this work unless the big guys up their cut.


Over at Airline Pilot Central the new Envoy and Piedmont (f.k.a. Henson Aviation) deals are shown and seem pretty confusing. Lots of bonuses (one time?), pay rate juggling, better reserve duty terms, holiday pay bonuses, better deadhead pay, et. al.

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... /envoy_air

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... t_airlines

Meanwhile Mesa (which does not have an exactly arm's-length relationship with AA) provides a considerable amount of American Eagle lift at some of the lowest pay rates in the industry. If they don't follow suit with the better pay/bonus deals offered by Envoy or Piedmont, will they end up flying even more Eagle routes due to being cheaper?

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... a_airlines

I haven't looked at the new version but in the past it was always structured so they wouldn't be locked into those rates if circumstances changed. At this point if they don't get bodies in the door, Piedmont won't be worth all of the administrative costs and they could move the pilots to the Envoy seniority list. As for the name, the company could continue to exist solely as a ground handling organization to ensure the trademark isn't lost.
 
silentbob
Posts: 1674
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:51 am

JBo wrote:
"Piedmont Airlines" might not mean anything to modern travelers, but AA might still hold enough value in it to preserve the trademark so no one else can use it to start/rename an airline.

That said, consolidation between AA's wholly owned regionals is inevitable. It's a lot of unnecessary administrative overhead to maintain three separate regional carriers with separate workgroups. Piedmont will probably fold into Envoy as the 145s are permanently retired, and then once that process has digested they'll probably fold PSA in as well.


AA does not want to be put in the position they and Delta were in a couple decades ago where one one huge wholly owned affiliate controlled all, or nearly all, of their regional flying. Having multiple options prevents a single regional strike or work action from crippling the airline. Those risks are not worth the minimal gains in cost efficiencies from merging. At that point, you're more likely to see them just put everyone directly onto a single seniority list and be considered mainline pilots on day one, regardless of what aircraft they operate.
 
dstblj52
Posts: 801
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:04 am

silentbob wrote:
JBo wrote:
"Piedmont Airlines" might not mean anything to modern travelers, but AA might still hold enough value in it to preserve the trademark so no one else can use it to start/rename an airline.

That said, consolidation between AA's wholly owned regionals is inevitable. It's a lot of unnecessary administrative overhead to maintain three separate regional carriers with separate workgroups. Piedmont will probably fold into Envoy as the 145s are permanently retired, and then once that process has digested they'll probably fold PSA in as well.


AA does not want to be put in the position they and Delta were in a couple decades ago where one one huge wholly owned affiliate controlled all, or nearly all, of their regional flying. Having multiple options prevents a single regional strike or work action from crippling the airline. Those risks are not worth the minimal gains in cost efficiencies from merging. At that point, you're more likely to see them just put everyone directly onto a single seniority list and be considered mainline pilots on day one, regardless of what aircraft they operate.

Piedmont is currently kept around by the desire to keep two in house regional handling operations and the rule that their must always be two places to put an aircraft and their otherwise wouldn't be a credible 145 competitor to envoy
 
MLIAA
Posts: 453
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 11:08 pm

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:42 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
mikejepp wrote:
There is no way it makes financial sense to pay regional pilots that much to fly 50 seat planes at $100+/barrel oil when you could be paying them the same to fly A320s and 737s. Is it even possible for the airline to show a profit on these flights under these circumstances? What are the chances that this is the beginning of the end of the regional airline outsourcing business model? Not to mention there are not really any new RJs being built as replacements and, with a limited supply of pilots, you want them flying as many passengers as possible per flight. Is this deal just a stop-gap measure to allow a few years to wind-down the whole regional airline operation?

Especially considering the fact that other regionals will, no doubt, match these pay raises and therefore eliminate the advantage Piedmont/Envoy have in retention... now you're back to where you started but paying much much more. I've read Endeavor is already in talks with management about this and I'm sure others too.

The whole regional model was built on the idea that there were more pilots than there were jobs and they could, therefore, take advantage of these pilots' eagerness to work and build hours and consequently pay them poverty wages. The airlines did that long enough that word got out and fewer people started becoming pilots and now the whole thing is backfiring. The environment of cheap, exploitable pilot labor is now obviously over.


The assumption you mention that other regionals will match this increase is the big question that will have to be answered. At least from an outsider point of view, the only other regional that will likely immediately match this is Endeavor. Non wholly owned regionals have a very different “accounting” arrangement with the mainline companies, one that is going to be a lot harder to make huge pay increase work.

It seems that AA is willing to make regional flying a loss leader. It gets pilots in the door, and if they pay them enough, they will stick around long enough to fly for AA - perhaps for life. It also gets customers into their actually profitable network from smaller cities. So I agree - the economics don’t make a ton of sense on the surface, but it seems like this is a rather good solution to retaining pilots and customers. I bet Endeavor matches within a few months… but otherwise, it’s going to be tough for companies like Skywest or Mesa make this work unless the big guys up their cut.


Over at Airline Pilot Central the new Envoy and Piedmont (f.k.a. Henson Aviation) deals are shown and seem pretty confusing. Lots of bonuses (one time?), pay rate juggling, better reserve duty terms, holiday pay bonuses, better deadhead pay, et. al.

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... /envoy_air

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... t_airlines

Meanwhile Mesa (which does not have an exactly arm's-length relationship with AA) provides a considerable amount of American Eagle lift at some of the lowest pay rates in the industry. If they don't follow suit with the better pay/bonus deals offered by Envoy or Piedmont, will they end up flying even more Eagle routes due to being cheaper?

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... a_airlines


The airlines that will get more flying are the ones that can staff more flying. They’re all canceling hundreds of flights due to pilot staffing, so with these new pay rates it would seem that Envoy and Piedmont would be able to staff more flying.

Mesa and maybe even SkyWest/Republic will be hard-pressed to match these rates and attract/retain pilots.
 
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JBo
Posts: 1928
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:23 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 12, 2022 2:13 pm

silentbob wrote:
AA does not want to be put in the position they and Delta were in a couple decades ago where one one huge wholly owned affiliate controlled all, or nearly all, of their regional flying. Having multiple options prevents a single regional strike or work action from crippling the airline. Those risks are not worth the minimal gains in cost efficiencies from merging. At that point, you're more likely to see them just put everyone directly onto a single seniority list and be considered mainline pilots on day one, regardless of what aircraft they operate.


The issue with Delta when the Comair strike happened is that their four regional partners at the time (Comair, SkyWest, ASA, Business Express) had very little geographic overlap in their operations (SkyWest covered the West, Comair the Midwest, ASA the Southeast, and BEX the Northeast), so when Comair went on strike, their midwestern regional operations were crippled. This is what prompted Delta to not only hire more regional contractors, but to also spread out and overlap everyone's operations so that no one hub was served by only one Connection partner.

DL has since narrowed their regional partnerships back down to only three: Endeavor (wholly owned), SkyWest, and Republic. The difference today is that they don't have geographic exclusivity.

So in AA's case, even if they consolidate Envoy, Piedmont, and PSA into a single wholly-owned subsidiary, they still have SkyWest, Republic, and Mesa as part of the Eagle network.

dstblj52 wrote:
Piedmont is currently kept around by the desire to keep two in house regional handling operations and the rule that their must always be two places to put an aircraft and their otherwise wouldn't be a credible 145 competitor to envoy


Three. PSA still exists as well, though they don't have E145s.
 
travaz
Posts: 1300
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:25 pm

Here is a link to all of the trademarks AA owns. It includes filing date and in some cases date of abandonment. It is 14 pages long and very interesting,
https://trademarks.justia.com/owners/am ... index.html
 
dstblj52
Posts: 801
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:48 pm

JBo wrote:
silentbob wrote:
AA does not want to be put in the position they and Delta were in a couple decades ago where one one huge wholly owned affiliate controlled all, or nearly all, of their regional flying. Having multiple options prevents a single regional strike or work action from crippling the airline. Those risks are not worth the minimal gains in cost efficiencies from merging. At that point, you're more likely to see them just put everyone directly onto a single seniority list and be considered mainline pilots on day one, regardless of what aircraft they operate.


The issue with Delta when the Comair strike happened is that their four regional partners at the time (Comair, SkyWest, ASA, Business Express) had very little geographic overlap in their operations (SkyWest covered the West, Comair the Midwest, ASA the Southeast, and BEX the Northeast), so when Comair went on strike, their midwestern regional operations were crippled. This is what prompted Delta to not only hire more regional contractors, but to also spread out and overlap everyone's operations so that no one hub was served by only one Connection partner.

DL has since narrowed their regional partnerships back down to only three: Endeavor (wholly owned), SkyWest, and Republic. The difference today is that they don't have geographic exclusivity.

So in AA's case, even if they consolidate Envoy, Piedmont, and PSA into a single wholly-owned subsidiary, they still have SkyWest, Republic, and Mesa as part of the Eagle network.

dstblj52 wrote:
Piedmont is currently kept around by the desire to keep two in house regional handling operations and the rule that their must always be two places to put an aircraft and their otherwise wouldn't be a credible 145 competitor to envoy


Three. PSA still exists as well, though they don't have E145s.

Psa exists but they don't do ground handling which Piedmont does a lot of and the flight benefits are different in terms of reciprocation, plus psa isn't a realistic threat when it comes to 145 operations
 
alasizon
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:43 pm

JohanTally wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
What we're discussing is what the remaining entity would be called after a hypothetical merger between MQ and PT. If they stopped operating Piedmont Airlines would the one heritage livery A319 be enough to keep the copyright?


Keep Envoy as the airline, and keep Piedmont as the ground handling company, problem solved....

They already have tried to differentiate Piedmont Airlines and their ramp services which is internally called Piedmont Ground Handling. Currently the same corporate HR group handles both PT and OH employee needs which changed in the last year or so.


The existence of PGH though is the same as Envoy Ground Handling (as much as Envoy doesn't want to admit that is their ground handling division). Ultimately, I'd rather see PSA go away with the operations replaced by Piedmont than a merger between Piedmont and Envoy.

The reason why Piedmont does so well is they don't touch the mess that is DFW.

Re: Mesa, they can barely staff the 28 aircraft they are scheduled to fly for AA each day. That doesn't even take into account their complete lack of maintenance staffing each day. I'd estimate end of year for a complete Mesa exodus from the AA portfolio.
 
Wingtips56
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Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 12, 2022 11:34 pm

It makes sense to hold onto predecessor company names to possibly prevent a new competitor trying to capitalize on nostalgia. PanAm v2, v3 (was there a v4?); Braniff v2, v3; Eastern v2; Frontier v2; PeoplExpress v2; Western v2; etc. come to mind, as new carriers trying to benefit from an old name. "We're back! (No, you are not.) Granted all of the above have failed except Fronter v2, but why give a competitor an unnecessary inroad into your markets with an imaginary 'history'? Would Delta want a new entrant coming in using the old name and "Northwest Orie-ent" jingle to horn into MSP and SEA? No.
So AA should hold onto all those legacy names for such marketing reasons, plus it made employees that came in from acquired/merged companies feel good to see their TWA, PSA, AirCal, US Airways,Piedmont, HP, RenoAir, etc. historic liveries, like they still mattered.
I'm still hoping to catch a flight on "my" AirCal legacy jet some day. (I got the amenity kit!)
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:01 am

I got to thinking that if one (or more) of the regionals would pick up their pilots' student loan payments (over and above hourly pay, health benefits, other bonuses, etc.) during their terms of employment, that could be a nice retention ploy. Most of the regional FO's and reserve Captains are probably on the hook for student loans in high-5, to low-6-figure amounts.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 2155
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:17 am

JBo wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
As Shakespeare said, "whats in a name?". Piedmont has long been forgotten and holds no appeal with travelers. Names for regional airlines are not important, it's the connection with the legacy carrier that matters.


"Piedmont Airlines" might not mean anything to modern travelers, but AA might still hold enough value in it to preserve the trademark so no one else can use it to start/rename an airline.

That said, consolidation between AA's wholly owned regionals is inevitable. It's a lot of unnecessary administrative overhead to maintain three separate regional carriers with separate workgroups. Piedmont will probably fold into Envoy as the 145s are permanently retired, and then once that process has digested they'll probably fold PSA in as well.

I would think that PSA will be the first to go, likely at the next downturn.

The CRJ fleet is orphaned and aging fast. Maintenance is a pain as parts become fewer and more expensive. Every new advisory issued on the CRJ fleet comes as an Airworthiness Directive ($$$), while Embraer issues mostly service bulletins.

PSA has no GSC operations, as well.
 
Cardude2
Posts: 762
Joined: Mon May 20, 2019 1:55 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:23 am

what will happen then when mesa dissapears? will AA take some or all of the CR9s and transfer them to someone like envoy?
 
hayzel777
Posts: 703
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:18 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:35 am

Cardude2 wrote:
what will happen then when mesa dissapears? will AA take some or all of the CR9s and transfer them to someone like envoy?

Those beaters are owned by Mesa so they would either be sold off or parked based on Mesa’s needs.
 
Vctony
Posts: 794
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 1999 10:51 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:50 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
JBo wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
As Shakespeare said, "whats in a name?". Piedmont has long been forgotten and holds no appeal with travelers. Names for regional airlines are not important, it's the connection with the legacy carrier that matters.


"Piedmont Airlines" might not mean anything to modern travelers, but AA might still hold enough value in it to preserve the trademark so no one else can use it to start/rename an airline.

That said, consolidation between AA's wholly owned regionals is inevitable. It's a lot of unnecessary administrative overhead to maintain three separate regional carriers with separate workgroups. Piedmont will probably fold into Envoy as the 145s are permanently retired, and then once that process has digested they'll probably fold PSA in as well.

I would think that PSA will be the first to go, likely at the next downturn.

The CRJ fleet is orphaned and aging fast. Maintenance is a pain as parts become fewer and more expensive. Every new advisory issued on the CRJ fleet comes as an Airworthiness Directive ($$$), while Embraer issues mostly service bulletins.

PSA has no GSC operations, as well.


I know they have older CR7s but aren't the many of the CR9s at PSA new (new is relative but delivered in 2014 - 2015ish range). Also, isn't the CRJ cheaper to fly at shorter stage lengths?

I agree that the CRJ will go before the E175 but I'd imagine it has some life left to it.
 
USAirKid
Posts: 1292
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:53 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
JBo wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
As Shakespeare said, "whats in a name?". Piedmont has long been forgotten and holds no appeal with travelers. Names for regional airlines are not important, it's the connection with the legacy carrier that matters.


"Piedmont Airlines" might not mean anything to modern travelers, but AA might still hold enough value in it to preserve the trademark so no one else can use it to start/rename an airline.

That said, consolidation between AA's wholly owned regionals is inevitable. It's a lot of unnecessary administrative overhead to maintain three separate regional carriers with separate workgroups. Piedmont will probably fold into Envoy as the 145s are permanently retired, and then once that process has digested they'll probably fold PSA in as well.

I would think that PSA will be the first to go, likely at the next downturn.

The CRJ fleet is orphaned and aging fast. Maintenance is a pain as parts become fewer and more expensive. Every new advisory issued on the CRJ fleet comes as an Airworthiness Directive ($$$), while Embraer issues mostly service bulletins.

PSA has no GSC operations, as well.


That'd be a big operation to go. That is about 22% of the planes in the American Eagle Fleet. Are there enough E170/E175 jets to fill that and enough flexibility in general?
 
airlineworker
Posts: 563
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:20 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:55 am

JBo wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
As Shakespeare said, "whats in a name?". Piedmont has long been forgotten and holds no appeal with travelers. Names for regional airlines are not important, it's the connection with the legacy carrier that matters.


"Piedmont Airlines" might not mean anything to modern travelers, but AA might still hold enough value in it to preserve the trademark so no one else can use it to start/rename an airline.

That said, consolidation between AA's wholly owned regionals is inevitable. It's a lot of unnecessary administrative overhead to maintain three separate regional carriers with separate workgroups. Piedmont will probably fold into Envoy as the 145s are permanently retired, and then once that process has digested they'll probably fold PSA in as well.


The name Piedmont meant something in its original application as a major carrier. The name was degraded a bit when it was applied to the Dash-8. I flew the original Piedmont and they were great, but the Dash-8 would shake this fillings out of your teeth. Working for Piedmont, I have taken hundreds of Dash flights and none were quiet or comfortable. Twice I flew LGA-ROA, first on Dash, slow and noisy, then a CRJ-200, smooth and quiet and got to ROA 25 minutes sooner.
The generation that knew the first Piedmont are thinning out, I should know, I am part of that generation. Just my 2 cents.
 
JohanTally
Posts: 880
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:44 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:59 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
JBo wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
As Shakespeare said, "whats in a name?". Piedmont has long been forgotten and holds no appeal with travelers. Names for regional airlines are not important, it's the connection with the legacy carrier that matters.


"Piedmont Airlines" might not mean anything to modern travelers, but AA might still hold enough value in it to preserve the trademark so no one else can use it to start/rename an airline.

That said, consolidation between AA's wholly owned regionals is inevitable. It's a lot of unnecessary administrative overhead to maintain three separate regional carriers with separate workgroups. Piedmont will probably fold into Envoy as the 145s are permanently retired, and then once that process has digested they'll probably fold PSA in as well.

I would think that PSA will be the first to go, likely at the next downturn.

The CRJ fleet is orphaned and aging fast. Maintenance is a pain as parts become fewer and more expensive. Every new advisory issued on the CRJ fleet comes as an Airworthiness Directive ($$$), while Embraer issues mostly service bulletins.

PSA has no GSC operations, as well.

AA is unique among the legacy carriers because the CR7 in a 65 seat configuration counts as an small RJ in the scope clause. Also OH has nearly 70 CR9s and the oldest is only 8 years so hopefully MRJ supports the aircraft for a while. The engine is a GE CF34 and that engine will have support for decades to come. I suspect AA will take notice whenever CR7s and E170s become available secondhand.
 
USAirKid
Posts: 1292
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:32 am

While we're talking about PSA, I'm curious does anyone know why PSA changed their IATA code from JS to OH? Comair used to have that code until it went defunct in 2012, so I find it curious that someone at AA/US/PSA would go through the effort to change the IATA code which is barely public facing.

The only theory I have is that JS is the IATA code of Air Koryo, although IATA does allow for controlled duplicates, and Air Koryo isn't likely to fly to the US anytime soon, and OH isn't likely to fly to North Korea...
 
JohanTally
Posts: 880
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:44 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:51 am

USAirKid wrote:
While we're talking about PSA, I'm curious does anyone know why PSA changed their IATA code from JS to OH? Comair used to have that code until it went defunct in 2012, so I find it curious that someone at AA/US/PSA would go through the effort to change the IATA code which is barely public facing.

The only theory I have is that JS is the IATA code of Air Koryo, although IATA does allow for controlled duplicates, and Air Koryo isn't likely to fly to the US anytime soon, and OH isn't likely to fly to North Korea...

Could just be coincidence but they are headquartered at DAY in Ohio(OH) and also have maintenance bases at CVG and CAK. Almost all PSA aircraft leaving those cities are carrying aircraft parts headed to another maintenance base. They often fly parts CVG-CLT-DAY or vice versa while it's less than 80 miles apart.
 
USAirKid
Posts: 1292
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jun 13, 2022 4:08 am

JohanTally wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
While we're talking about PSA, I'm curious does anyone know why PSA changed their IATA code from JS to OH? Comair used to have that code until it went defunct in 2012, so I find it curious that someone at AA/US/PSA would go through the effort to change the IATA code which is barely public facing.

The only theory I have is that JS is the IATA code of Air Koryo, although IATA does allow for controlled duplicates, and Air Koryo isn't likely to fly to the US anytime soon, and OH isn't likely to fly to North Korea...

Could just be coincidence but they are headquartered at DAY in Ohio(OH) and also have maintenance bases at CVG and CAK. Almost all PSA aircraft leaving those cities are carrying aircraft parts headed to another maintenance base. They often fly parts CVG-CLT-DAY or vice versa while it's less than 80 miles apart.


I get why they would've chosen OH, since they're based in Ohio. (It makes more sense than Comair having OH, while that was based at the Cincinnati area airport, that airport is in Kentucky, not Ohio.)

My question is... Why bother with the effort to make the change in the first place? It surely wasn't a cost free endeavor, and IATA codes aren't really something the general public gets, its just a random code on a screen or piece of paper.)
 
KCaviator
Posts: 423
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:00 pm

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:06 pm

The genius plan of the YX CEO is to shrink with the pilot shortage, and then grow again whenever things stabilize. What'll probably happen is YX permanently loses their flying to the wholly-owneds.
 
Planeboy17
Posts: 624
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:18 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:54 pm

KCaviator wrote:
The genius plan of the YX CEO is to shrink with the pilot shortage, and then grow again whenever things stabilize. What'll probably happen is YX permanently loses their flying to the wholly-owneds.

Well Mesa is getting into the cargo business now. They have 3 737-400s operating for DHL and still have 60 175s for UA. Not sure if the cargo play will pan out but it seems like YX maybe trying to get out of the regional business, or try to do them both. I wouldn’t have high expectations of that going well.
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 826
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:47 pm

American gives big pay raise to regional Pilots!

"American Airlines regional carriers hike pilot pay more than 50% as shortage persists"

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/13/america ... fies-.html
 
amcnd
Posts: 257
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:19 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:14 pm

hayzel777 wrote:
Cardude2 wrote:
what will happen then when mesa dissapears? will AA take some or all of the CR9s and transfer them to someone like envoy?

Those beaters are owned by Mesa so they would either be sold off or parked based on Mesa’s needs.



Isn't Mesa trying to start a European airline with some of them??
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 785
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:48 pm

Planeboy17 wrote:
KCaviator wrote:
The genius plan of the YX CEO is to shrink with the pilot shortage, and then grow again whenever things stabilize. What'll probably happen is YX permanently loses their flying to the wholly-owneds.

Well Mesa is getting into the cargo business now. They have 3 737-400s operating for DHL and still have 60 175s for UA. Not sure if the cargo play will pan out but it seems like YX maybe trying to get out of the regional business, or try to do them both. I wouldn’t have high expectations of that going well.

Just so we are all straight, YX = republic. YV = mesa.
 
alasizon
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:57 pm

amcnd wrote:
hayzel777 wrote:
Cardude2 wrote:
what will happen then when mesa dissapears? will AA take some or all of the CR9s and transfer them to someone like envoy?

Those beaters are owned by Mesa so they would either be sold off or parked based on Mesa’s needs.



Isn't Mesa trying to start a European airline with some of them??

I think they finally gave up on that dream.

The new pay raises for PSA, Piedmont and Envoy should be interesting to see how OO and YX respond (YV's newest offer to pilots this week was garbage still).
 
JohanTally
Posts: 880
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:44 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:35 pm

alasizon wrote:
amcnd wrote:
hayzel777 wrote:
Those beaters are owned by Mesa so they would either be sold off or parked based on Mesa’s needs.



Isn't Mesa trying to start a European airline with some of them??

I think they finally gave up on that dream.

The new pay raises for PSA, Piedmont and Envoy should be interesting to see how OO and YX respond (YV's newest offer to pilots this week was garbage still).

Not to say AA and PSA aren't working on an agreement but this one only incorporates Envoy and Piedmont.
 
alasizon
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:59 pm

JohanTally wrote:
alasizon wrote:
amcnd wrote:


Isn't Mesa trying to start a European airline with some of them??

I think they finally gave up on that dream.

The new pay raises for PSA, Piedmont and Envoy should be interesting to see how OO and YX respond (YV's newest offer to pilots this week was garbage still).

Not to say AA and PSA aren't working on an agreement but this one only incorporates Envoy and Piedmont.


My understanding is that per ALPA, PSA has a pay agreement but is working on QoL updates to their contract as well.
 
Cardude2
Posts: 762
Joined: Mon May 20, 2019 1:55 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:55 pm

amcnd wrote:
hayzel777 wrote:
Cardude2 wrote:
what will happen then when mesa dissapears? will AA take some or all of the CR9s and transfer them to someone like envoy?

Those beaters are owned by Mesa so they would either be sold off or parked based on Mesa’s needs.



Isn't Mesa trying to start a European airline with some of them??


yes with these now ex AA CRJ 900's https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... subsidiary
 
TripleA
Posts: 185
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:42 pm

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:59 am

alasizon wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:

Re: Mesa, they can barely staff the 28 aircraft they are scheduled to fly for AA each day. That doesn't even take into account their complete lack of maintenance staffing each day. I'd estimate end of year for a complete Mesa exodus from the AA portfolio.


Wow, they're down to just 28 active CR9s? I knew YV was struggling, but...yikes!. What percentage of regional flying are they doing in the PHX and DFW hubs? It seemed to me YV was still contributing quite a bit to the Eagle ops in PHX, so I'd be curious to know what the plan is if/when they go away in regards to their replacement. Can SkyWest cover all of Mesa's flying?
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 2155
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:56 pm

TripleA wrote:
alasizon wrote:
JohanTally wrote:


Wow, they're down to just 28 active CR9s? I knew YV was struggling, but...yikes!. What percentage of regional flying are they doing in the PHX and DFW hubs? It seemed to me YV was still contributing quite a bit to the Eagle ops in PHX, so I'd be curious to know what the plan is if/when they go away in regards to their replacement. Can SkyWest cover all of Mesa's flying?

Mesa is like the Roach that never dies, no matter how much you try to get rid of it. And always has been.
It will always be a place for marginal folks at the end, or beginning of their careers to go to.

Mesa’s biggest operational issue, IMO, is the route map.

They lose a captain for an entire day to just traveling cross-country to cover a call out, not to mention moving mechanics, deadheads to cover broken planes, etc. Consolidating into one geographic area, as others have done, would be a huge boost in reliability itself.
 
CIDFlyer
Posts: 2322
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:19 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:08 pm

Mesa still does a bit of flying from
PHX/DFW. I know for my local airport it’s 3x DFW 1x PHX and it’s about the same for cities in the Dakota’s like FSD and FAR. I know in the AA thread it was mentioned that a proposed schedule for the fall had CID switching to 1x envoy E75 and 1x A319 to Dallas with PHX being upgraded to A319
So I’m curious to see how much Mesa is pulled down. It was mentioned that several cities could see this.
 
travaz
Posts: 1300
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:08 pm

As far as I know Mesa still has the United flying and 4 737 (3-400F and 1 800F) flying for DHL.
 
MO11
Posts: 2136
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:07 pm

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:32 pm

travaz wrote:
As far as I know Mesa still has the United flying and 4 737 (3-400F and 1 800F) flying for DHL.


Mesa doesn't fly any -800s.
 
MLIAA
Posts: 453
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 11:08 pm

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:40 pm

Proposed AA schedules for October and November has Mesa losing even more, down to 63 total flights a day between the two hubs in November. For reference, in June that number was about 88 daily flights, most of them being in DFW.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 2155
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:28 am

MLIAA wrote:
Proposed AA schedules for October and November has Mesa losing even more, down to 63 total flights a day between the two hubs in November. For reference, in June that number was about 88 daily flights, most of them being in DFW.

Can’t fly’em if you can’t staff’em…
 
dstblj52
Posts: 801
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:12 am

TripleA wrote:
alasizon wrote:
JohanTally wrote:


Wow, they're down to just 28 active CR9s? I knew YV was struggling, but...yikes!. What percentage of regional flying are they doing in the PHX and DFW hubs? It seemed to me YV was still contributing quite a bit to the Eagle ops in PHX, so I'd be curious to know what the plan is if/when they go away in regards to their replacement. Can SkyWest cover all of Mesa's flying?

How many 79 seaters do they have? Those are worth something I would assume to keep around
 
SaabFA71
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:17 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:03 pm

Here's how American can preserve the Piedmont and PSA names should the wholly owned regionals ever merge under one umbrella: create two low cost airlines kind of like what USAirways did with creating MetroJet. One airline would be called 'Piedmont Airlines' and the other would be called 'PSA.' Each airline would bear the Piedmont and PSA names and original paint jobs on their respective aircraft. The planes would be A319s or A220-300s and staffed by American crews under separate seniority lists. The Piedmont operation would be centered out of CLT, while the PSA operation would be centered out of PHX, each serving select markets. I'm sure it's easier said than done and there would be a lot of details to hammer out, but it's an idea that I kicked around. And being nostalgic, it would be one way of bringing back two great airlines again in full prominence.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 13484
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:14 pm

SaabFA71 wrote:
Here's how American can preserve the Piedmont and PSA names should the wholly owned regionals ever merge under one umbrella: create two low cost airlines kind of like what USAirways did with creating MetroJet. One airline would be called 'Piedmont Airlines' and the other would be called 'PSA.' Each airline would bear the Piedmont and PSA names and original paint jobs on their respective aircraft. The planes would be A319s or A220-300s and staffed by American crews under separate seniority lists. The Piedmont operation would be centered out of CLT, while the PSA operation would be centered out of PHX, each serving select markets. I'm sure it's easier said than done and there would be a lot of details to hammer out, but it's an idea that I kicked around. And being nostalgic, it would be one way of bringing back two great airlines again in full prominence.

Yeah AA crews would never agree to something like that and in today’s environment AA has no leverage to get them to accept that. Running two separate airlines within an airline using possibly brand new planes (A220) with nothing about them really low cost is a great way to lose a lot of money.
 
User avatar
Web500sjc
Posts: 912
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:23 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:34 pm

SaabFA71 wrote:
Here's how American can preserve the Piedmont and PSA names should the wholly owned regionals ever merge under one umbrella: create two low cost airlines kind of like what USAirways did with creating MetroJet. One airline would be called 'Piedmont Airlines' and the other would be called 'PSA.' Each airline would bear the Piedmont and PSA names and original paint jobs on their respective aircraft. The planes would be A319s or A220-300s and staffed by American crews under separate seniority lists. The Piedmont operation would be centered out of CLT, while the PSA operation would be centered out of PHX, each serving select markets. I'm sure it's easier said than done and there would be a lot of details to hammer out, but it's an idea that I kicked around. And being nostalgic, it would be one way of bringing back two great airlines again in full prominence.


Maybe they can just create a retro jet, ensure that the brands are represented in the airline history, and license out the relevant trademarks to other entities that make merchandise and hotels?


I don’t think AA will have to much of an issue in keeping other entities from using those brands. On the other hand no acquiring airline had been using the People Express and Eastern trademarks- so they had fallen into dormancy and were eligible for pick up by new entities (Pan Am could probably be used as well).
 
USAirKid
Posts: 1292
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:07 am

Web500sjc wrote:
SaabFA71 wrote:
Here's how American can preserve the Piedmont and PSA names should the wholly owned regionals ever merge under one umbrella: create two low cost airlines kind of like what USAirways did with creating MetroJet. One airline would be called 'Piedmont Airlines' and the other would be called 'PSA.' Each airline would bear the Piedmont and PSA names and original paint jobs on their respective aircraft. The planes would be A319s or A220-300s and staffed by American crews under separate seniority lists. The Piedmont operation would be centered out of CLT, while the PSA operation would be centered out of PHX, each serving select markets. I'm sure it's easier said than done and there would be a lot of details to hammer out, but it's an idea that I kicked around. And being nostalgic, it would be one way of bringing back two great airlines again in full prominence.


Maybe they can just create a retro jet, ensure that the brands are represented in the airline history, and license out the relevant trademarks to other entities that make merchandise and hotels?


I don’t think AA will have to much of an issue in keeping other entities from using those brands. On the other hand no acquiring airline had been using the People Express and Eastern trademarks- so they had fallen into dormancy and were eligible for pick up by new entities (Pan Am could probably be used as well).


Agreed, the retrojets they already have support the retention of the trademarks.

PanAm’s trademarks are owned by a railroad, now known as PanAm railroad, but it was formerly called Gilford railways.

As for Eastern and People Express, I’m not sure who owns those. Usually the trademark would be sold in bankruptcy, since it is worth something.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 13484
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:26 am

USAirKid wrote:
Web500sjc wrote:
SaabFA71 wrote:
Here's how American can preserve the Piedmont and PSA names should the wholly owned regionals ever merge under one umbrella: create two low cost airlines kind of like what USAirways did with creating MetroJet. One airline would be called 'Piedmont Airlines' and the other would be called 'PSA.' Each airline would bear the Piedmont and PSA names and original paint jobs on their respective aircraft. The planes would be A319s or A220-300s and staffed by American crews under separate seniority lists. The Piedmont operation would be centered out of CLT, while the PSA operation would be centered out of PHX, each serving select markets. I'm sure it's easier said than done and there would be a lot of details to hammer out, but it's an idea that I kicked around. And being nostalgic, it would be one way of bringing back two great airlines again in full prominence.


Maybe they can just create a retro jet, ensure that the brands are represented in the airline history, and license out the relevant trademarks to other entities that make merchandise and hotels?


I don’t think AA will have to much of an issue in keeping other entities from using those brands. On the other hand no acquiring airline had been using the People Express and Eastern trademarks- so they had fallen into dormancy and were eligible for pick up by new entities (Pan Am could probably be used as well).


Agreed, the retrojets they already have support the retention of the trademarks.

PanAm’s trademarks are owned by a railroad, now known as PanAm railroad, but it was formerly called Gilford railways.

As for Eastern and People Express, I’m not sure who owns those. Usually the trademark would be sold in bankruptcy, since it is worth something.

Eastern’s trademark is obviously owned by Eastern Airlines, the train wreck flying 767s that was formerly known as Dynamic Airways. They picked up the IP from Swift Air (now iAero) who at the time had some common ownership, Swift Air had acquired it after buying the MIA based Eastern revival that flew 737s on charter flights in the mid 2010s.

PeoplExpress was picked up and used about 10 years ago by a virtual airline (Vision Airlines was the operating airline, using 734s) based out of PHF that lasted only a few months before flaming out.
 
jgcotter
Posts: 1232
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Re: American Eagle News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jul 12, 2022 11:32 pm

E175 N520SY ferried from SJK-MAO-SJU-XNA-BOI on 7/8 for delivery to OO to operate for Eagle.

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