https://lostcoastoutpost.com/2017/aug/4 ... s-no-more/

Humboldt is not the only airport PenAir is quitting. Jacobs said she was told that the airline told her they would be leaving all non-essential air service markets in the lower 48 states — for those keeping score, that means Crescent City will keep its cheap flights to Portland. PenAir quietly informed local airport officials today that it would cease its services between ACV and PDX. The last flights will be this coming Monday.

Nothing on KS's website regarding this.

Can also confirm from employees based in PDX, only CEC will remain out of PDX.

Well I thought they would be a better operation than that, but I guess they are no better than ZK and the rest ..... Seems they are run by folks that are not that bright, or ex MarkAir folks lol.....

http://www.knopnews2.com/content/news/P ... 99283.html
They are also leaving Scottsbluff, NE and the EAS money for there.

PenAir's Midwest EAS operation has been a complete disaster. Epic failure from an airline that gave many cities hope after GL's meltdown.

KCaviator wrote:

PenAir's Midwest EAS operation has been a complete disaster. Epic failure from an airline that gave many cities hope after GL's meltdown.

What was wrong with it? I know and experienced their west coast flying to be unreliable.

Well bummer. I was hopeful they would be successful and grow in the lower 48. I guess the bread and butter is in Alaska? Why did they go for the lower 48 to begin with? Could it be due to Alaska bringing Horizon up north? How is Pen Air financially? Are they profitable?

I'm surprised with the AS codeshares, they couldn't at least make it work up and down the west coast. This leaves a lot of cities with just the UA monopoly again.

Pilot shortage

Bobloblaw wrote:

Pilot shortage

Very likely, and it's easier to cancel the non-EAS stuff. The Feds have more resources against contract non-performance than do ticketed passengers.

BoeingGuy wrote:

KCaviator wrote:

PenAir's Midwest EAS operation has been a complete disaster. Epic failure from an airline that gave many cities hope after GL's meltdown.

What was wrong with it? I know and experienced their west coast flying to be unreliable.

In Alaska they are known as WhenAir.

I flew them from Dillingham to Anchorage and the flight was delayed hours because they decided it was more profitable to use the plane for a charter to Dutch Harbor for Alaska Airlines.

I was in Liberal,KS a few weeks ago and a non-PenAir person at the air terminal said that they were doing lousy loadwise and performancewise. Took that with a grain of salt, but I doubt loads were very busy. Did notice a PenAir ad in a video billboard in town, so there was some advertising....

Here is Pen Air press release:

Alaska-based PenAir cancels Pacific Northwest area air service
Effective Tuesday, August 8, 2017, PenAir will cease operations of all non-EAS routes in the Pacific Northwest. This includes air travel on PenAir between Portland and Redding, Eureka/Arcata, North Bend/Coos Bay or Klamath Falls. The last scheduled flights in and out of Portland will be Monday, August 7. Flights operated by PenAir between Portland and Crescent City will continue as scheduled.

“The steps we are taking with closing Portland area routes will allow PenAir to cut costs, while management continues its focus on financial stability and safe operations,” said PenAir CEO and Chairman Danny Seybert.

PenAir flies to eight destinations within Alaska, as well as the Denver and Boston areas. Passengers on all other routes can expect continued operations with no changes to flight times or services.

Passengers scheduled to fly out of the Portland markets after August 7, may contact the airline at 800-448-4226.

It would be really interesting to figure out what went wrong with their operations. I just checked and it seems that PenAir flights show up on Kayak (and other flight search engines I'd imagine), and another poster mentioned that they had advertising, so at least people would have been aware of their service. Maybe Prop-phobia? Fares too high? A quick check on an example booking from Denver to Liberal, KS gave me a price of $250, about the same as a flight from DEN-OKC, and far cheaper than DEN-Amarillo. Are their prices much higher elsewhere? Maybe people are wary of flying on an airline they never heard of before and prefer to drive to a larger city to fly a major carrier, even if fares are about the same? Is the pilot shortage entirely to blame?

As a side note, how is Glo doing after resuming operations following their bankruptcy in April? They seem to have a similar operation: flying Saabs to non-EAS cities. It would be interesting to know how they're making it work in contrast with PenAir.

Gert ready for much more of this. The pilot shortage is real and will only be getting worse. If Horizon can't fully staff its cockpits, you can't expect PenAir to. It doesn't mater how well-run these carriers are, the planes won't fly themselves.

jetlanta wrote:

It doesn't mater how well-run these carriers are, the planes won't fly themselves.

Not yet, anyway.

mtnwest1979 wrote:

I was in Liberal,KS a few weeks ago and a non-PenAir person at the air terminal said that they were doing lousy loadwise and performancewise. Took that with a grain of salt, but I doubt loads were very busy. Did notice a PenAir ad in a video billboard in town, so there was some advertising....

It appears Liberal is continuing?

Did GLO not suspend service indefinitely effective July 15?
It is simply too difficult to operate and maintain reliable services with a prop-jet fleet when fares do not stimulate the traffic.
You can sell a bunch of seats at $59 but lose a lot of money as well. The intra-Florida market is a prime example. Why fly Silver TPA-FLL with fares
at or higher than WN who fly 737's several times a day? Its not a comfortable 40 minute flight anyway due to FL weather, and you bounce around a bit in a Saab 340 and you'll not go back. Add in unreliable schedules and very difficult to build or maintain any market share. If GLO can't operate several roundtrips in a market like MEM-MSY to build business and leisure travel business and fares are not competitive to any legacy carrier comparison, how can the airline maintain with the traveling public not responding?
The mantra is you can sell cheap and lose money, and sell high and lose money. Pick your battle.
A like scenario for EAS cities as well.

ViaAir, with Embraer 120s and 145s, has been having a hellofa time in their EAS markets as well.

mtnwest1979 wrote:

I was in Liberal,KS a few weeks ago and a non-PenAir person at the air terminal said that they were doing lousy loadwise and performancewise. Took that with a grain of salt, but I doubt loads were very busy. Did notice a PenAir ad in a video billboard in town, so there was some advertising....

To be fair though ... is Liberal, Kansas a real hot spot ? How many people would be going there anyway?

Aliqiout wrote:

mtnwest1979 wrote:

I was in Liberal,KS a few weeks ago and a non-PenAir person at the air terminal said that they were doing lousy loadwise and performancewise. Took that with a grain of salt, but I doubt loads were very busy. Did notice a PenAir ad in a video billboard in town, so there was some advertising....

It appears Liberal is continuing?

Yes, but I just added this since they seem to be asking DOT to find someone else for Scottsbluff and it wouldn't be a shock if they end any other of the DEN toed locations.

So how come outfits like Boutique Air can seemingly not have an issue with pilots?

F27500 wrote:

mtnwest1979 wrote:

I was in Liberal,KS a few weeks ago and a non-PenAir person at the air terminal said that they were doing lousy loadwise and performancewise. Took that with a grain of salt, but I doubt loads were very busy. Did notice a PenAir ad in a video billboard in town, so there was some advertising....

To be fair though ... is Liberal, Kansas a real hot spot ? How many people would be going there anyway?

Not really, no. There are very limited options in that part of the U.S. for air travel. The next closest options are Garden City and Dodge City. Dodge City only has Pen Air service to Denver like Liberal does and Garden City is only served by American Eagle to DFW. If someone in that area of the U.S. wanted more flight options they are going to have to drive 2+ hours to OKC or Amarillo, or potentially Wichita.

From a family member, I know a little bit about the Penair experience in Klamath Falls. During the first few months, they would sell flights interlining with both United and Alaska. The United fares were often much cheaper, and could be booked through the United website. After about six months, the only fares that would show up were on Alaska and were several hundred higher on a round trip, both before and after the United fares disappeared. The flights were often late and/or cancelled. The hospital in town, the major employer, hires a lot of travelling staff, and would use the airline to fly in prospects. The next nearest airport is Medford which is 70 miles away on non-interstate roads through the mountains.

What were fares out of PDX like?

mtnwest1979 wrote:

Aliqiout wrote:

mtnwest1979 wrote:

I was in Liberal,KS a few weeks ago and a non-PenAir person at the air terminal said that they were doing lousy loadwise and performancewise. Took that with a grain of salt, but I doubt loads were very busy. Did notice a PenAir ad in a video billboard in town, so there was some advertising....

It appears Liberal is continuing?

So how come outfits like Boutique Air can seemingly not have an issue with pilots?

Different hiring minimums. Boutique is Part 135, PenAir is Part 121.

All it takes to be a First Officer for a Part 135 company is a commercial license, and to be a captain just 1200 hours of flight time.

For Part 121 you need 1500 hours and an Airline Transport License just to be an FO.

As someone who use to fly the Saab for PenAir out of Portland, I saw this coming. The shortage of pilots coupled with maintenance issues led to many delays and cancellations. During my time there I had numerous gate and air returns. It was very frustrating.

jetlanta wrote:

Gert ready for much more of this. The pilot shortage is real and will only be getting worse. If Horizon can't fully staff its cockpits, you can't expect PenAir to. It doesn't mater how well-run these carriers are, the planes won't fly themselves.

It's a pay shortage, not a pilot shortage. None of the big airlines or any of the good regionals are struggling to fill classes. Envoy has classes full until DECEMBER.

Varsity1 wrote:

jetlanta wrote:

Gert ready for much more of this. The pilot shortage is real and will only be getting worse. If Horizon can't fully staff its cockpits, you can't expect PenAir to. It doesn't mater how well-run these carriers are, the planes won't fly themselves.

It's a pay shortage, not a pilot shortage. None of the big airlines or any of the good regionals are struggling to fill classes. Envoy has classes full until DECEMBER.

Stop saying this BS. All the pay scales are posted online. Everyone is paying good now. Envoy is full because they are the top of the top and have flow. And small regional starting at 50+ with no flow is still having problems.

SoCalPilot wrote:

All it takes to be a First Officer for a Part 135 company is a commercial license, and to be a captain just 1200 hours of flight time.

For Part 121 you need 1500 hours and an Airline Transport License just to be an FO.

In order to be a captain on a scheduled commuter airline, you need an ATP regardless of 121/135.

Varsity1 wrote:

jetlanta wrote:

Gert ready for much more of this. The pilot shortage is real and will only be getting worse. If Horizon can't fully staff its cockpits, you can't expect PenAir to. It doesn't mater how well-run these carriers are, the planes won't fly themselves.

It's a pay shortage, not a pilot shortage. None of the big airlines or any of the good regionals are struggling to fill classes. Envoy has classes full until DECEMBER.

You contradict yourself by saying it's a "pay shortage," yet Envoy classes are full. Envoy pilots are not the highest paid in the regional industry.

MO11 wrote:

SoCalPilot wrote:

All it takes to be a First Officer for a Part 135 company is a commercial license, and to be a captain just 1200 hours of flight time.

For Part 121 you need 1500 hours and an Airline Transport License just to be an FO.

In order to be a captain on a scheduled commuter airline, you need an ATP regardless of 121/135.

Not true. To be a Captain at companies such as Boutique, Mokulele, Air Choice One, etc, you only need a Commercial license and 1200 hours.

A lot of these places pick up FO's right after they get their commercial license at 250 hours or so, give them experience in the airline industry that they can't get anywhere else, upgrade them at 1200 hours, and then once they hit their 1500 hours they move on to a regional.

KCaviator wrote:

Varsity1 wrote:

jetlanta wrote:

Gert ready for much more of this. The pilot shortage is real and will only be getting worse. If Horizon can't fully staff its cockpits, you can't expect PenAir to. It doesn't mater how well-run these carriers are, the planes won't fly themselves.

It's a pay shortage, not a pilot shortage. None of the big airlines or any of the good regionals are struggling to fill classes. Envoy has classes full until DECEMBER.

You contradict yourself by saying it's a "pay shortage," yet Envoy classes are full. Envoy pilots are not the highest paid in the regional industry.

Yep. The funny thing is that after PenAir revised their pay scale a few months ago, they became one of the highest paying regionals. $40/hour to start on the Saab, compared to $38 at Envoy, $37 at Skywest, $36 at Compass, $39 at PSA. Of course before this change it was only $30 an hour, not great at all.

KentB27 wrote:

F27500 wrote:

mtnwest1979 wrote:

I was in Liberal,KS a few weeks ago and a non-PenAir person at the air terminal said that they were doing lousy loadwise and performancewise. Took that with a grain of salt, but I doubt loads were very busy. Did notice a PenAir ad in a video billboard in town, so there was some advertising....

To be fair though ... is Liberal, Kansas a real hot spot ? How many people would be going there anyway?

Not really, no. There are very limited options in that part of the U.S. for air travel. The next closest options are Garden City and Dodge City. Dodge City only has Pen Air service to Denver like Liberal does and Garden City is only served by American Eagle to DFW. If someone in that area of the U.S. wanted more flight options they are going to have to drive 2+ hours to OKC or Amarillo, or potentially Wichita.

I don't want to turn this into EAS bashing, but people wanting frequent air service shouldn't be living in Liberal, Dodge City, Garden City, or Klamath Falls. That's just not part of the charm.

EAS-participating carriers need to keep running the numbers on fuel, aircraft, and crew costs and see if the EAS program (Congress) is willing pay the costs to keep carriers solvent. Further, I have to wonder if EAS should just be dismissing bids from unreliable carriers.

MIflyer12 wrote:

I don't want to turn this into EAS bashing, but people wanting frequent air service shouldn't be living in Liberal, Dodge City, Garden City, or Klamath Falls. That's just not part of the charm.

No one is asking for frequent air service. Just service for business people to help with local commerce, transportation for medical care in the big city, and basically access to the outside world.

SoCalPilot wrote:

KCaviator wrote:

Varsity1 wrote:

It's a pay shortage, not a pilot shortage. None of the big airlines or any of the good regionals are struggling to fill classes. Envoy has classes full until DECEMBER.

You contradict yourself by saying it's a "pay shortage," yet Envoy classes are full. Envoy pilots are not the highest paid in the regional industry.

Yep. The funny thing is that after PenAir revised their pay scale a few months ago, they became one of the highest paying regionals. $40/hour to start on the Saab, compared to $38 at Envoy, $37 at Skywest, $36 at Compass, $39 at PSA. Of course before this change it was only $30 an hour, not great at all.

Reality check here:

$40 a flight hour. You will start out sitting reserve at 75 hours/month. $36,000 a year. That's not 'good' considering learning to fly can cost close to $200,000.

The bonuses regionals are paying is taxed at the capital gains rate. You are lucky to see half that.

When airlines start paying $60,000-$70,000 a year of REAL WAGE and can't fill classes, I'll believe it. Until then pilot will leave to lower paid jobs for the respectable ones.

SoCalPilot wrote:

MO11 wrote:

SoCalPilot wrote:

All it takes to be a First Officer for a Part 135 company is a commercial license, and to be a captain just 1200 hours of flight time.

For Part 121 you need 1500 hours and an Airline Transport License just to be an FO.

In order to be a captain on a scheduled commuter airline, you need an ATP regardless of 121/135.

Not true. To be a Captain at companies such as Boutique, Mokulele, Air Choice One, etc, you only need a Commercial license and 1200 hours.

A lot of these places pick up FO's right after they get their commercial license at 250 hours or so, give them experience in the airline industry that they can't get anywhere else, upgrade them at 1200 hours, and then once they hit their 1500 hours they move on to a regional.

Yeah, I'm too old. My mindset is still at no single-engine IFR. So you're good with no ATP in a Caravan or PC-12, but not in a Cessna 402.

Varsity1 wrote:

SoCalPilot wrote:

KCaviator wrote:

You contradict yourself by saying it's a "pay shortage," yet Envoy classes are full. Envoy pilots are not the highest paid in the regional industry.

Yep. The funny thing is that after PenAir revised their pay scale a few months ago, they became one of the highest paying regionals. $40/hour to start on the Saab, compared to $38 at Envoy, $37 at Skywest, $36 at Compass, $39 at PSA. Of course before this change it was only $30 an hour, not great at all.

Reality check here:

$40 a flight hour. You will start out sitting reserve at 75 hours/month. $36,000 a year. That's not 'good' considering learning to fly can cost close to $200,000.

The bonuses regionals are paying is taxed at the capital gains rate. You are lucky to see half that.

When airlines start paying $60,000-$70,000 a year of REAL WAGE and can't fill classes, I'll believe it. Until then pilot will leave to lower paid jobs for the respectable ones.

Reality check. At smaller regionals there ARE NO RESERVES right now. New FOs are flying till they are timed out and are crediting 150+ hours a month. Maybe you will start on res at envoy or Skywest but not PenAir or even horizon.

32andBelow wrote:

Varsity1 wrote:

SoCalPilot wrote:

Yep. The funny thing is that after PenAir revised their pay scale a few months ago, they became one of the highest paying regionals. $40/hour to start on the Saab, compared to $38 at Envoy, $37 at Skywest, $36 at Compass, $39 at PSA. Of course before this change it was only $30 an hour, not great at all.

Reality check here:

$40 a flight hour. You will start out sitting reserve at 75 hours/month. $36,000 a year. That's not 'good' considering learning to fly can cost close to $200,000.

The bonuses regionals are paying is taxed at the capital gains rate. You are lucky to see half that.

When airlines start paying $60,000-$70,000 a year of REAL WAGE and can't fill classes, I'll believe it. Until then pilot will leave to lower paid jobs for the respectable ones.

Reality check. At smaller regionals there ARE NO RESERVES right now. New FOs are flying till they are timed out and are crediting 150+ hours a month. Maybe you will start on res at envoy or Skywest but not PenAir or even horizon.

This. I was easily crediting over 100 at PenAir, as were most pilots.

MIflyer12 wrote:

KentB27 wrote:

F27500 wrote:

To be fair though ... is Liberal, Kansas a real hot spot ? How many people would be going there anyway?

Not really, no. There are very limited options in that part of the U.S. for air travel. The next closest options are Garden City and Dodge City. Dodge City only has Pen Air service to Denver like Liberal does and Garden City is only served by American Eagle to DFW. If someone in that area of the U.S. wanted more flight options they are going to have to drive 2+ hours to OKC or Amarillo, or potentially Wichita.

I don't want to turn this into EAS bashing, but people wanting frequent air service shouldn't be living in Liberal, Dodge City, Garden City, or Klamath Falls. That's just not part of the charm.

EAS-participating carriers need to keep running the numbers on fuel, aircraft, and crew costs and see if the EAS program (Congress) is willing pay the costs to keep carriers solvent. Further, I have to wonder if EAS should just be dismissing bids from unreliable carriers.

I never implied that these people want frequent service, I was just saying there aren't many options.

mtnwest1979 wrote:

Aliqiout wrote:

mtnwest1979 wrote:

I was in Liberal,KS a few weeks ago and a non-PenAir person at the air terminal said that they were doing lousy loadwise and performancewise. Took that with a grain of salt, but I doubt loads were very busy. Did notice a PenAir ad in a video billboard in town, so there was some advertising....

It appears Liberal is continuing?

Yes, but I just added this since they seem to be asking DOT to find someone else for Scottsbluff and it wouldn't be a shock if they end any other of the DEN toed locations.

So how come outfits like Boutique Air can seemingly not have an issue with pilots?

Because they are Part 135 operators. They can hire pilots with lower time. These pilots then build up to the 1500TT for the regionals and move on.

Boutique, ACO, Surf Air, etc will continue to get pilots and most likely end up the future of EAS flying.

SoCalPilot wrote:

MO11 wrote:

SoCalPilot wrote:

All it takes to be a First Officer for a Part 135 company is a commercial license, and to be a captain just 1200 hours of flight time.

For Part 121 you need 1500 hours and an Airline Transport License just to be an FO.

In order to be a captain on a scheduled commuter airline, you need an ATP regardless of 121/135.

Not true. To be a Captain at companies such as Boutique, Mokulele, Air Choice One, etc, you only need a Commercial license and 1200 hours.

A lot of these places pick up FO's right after they get their commercial license at 250 hours or so, give them experience in the airline industry that they can't get anywhere else, upgrade them at 1200 hours, and then once they hit their 1500 hours they move on to a regional.

You both are partially correct.

Single engine scheduled commuter ops only requires pt135 IFR PIC requirements
Multi engine scheduled commuter ops requires ATP mins for PIC

as739x wrote:

mtnwest1979 wrote:

Aliqiout wrote:

It appears Liberal is continuing?

Yes, but I just added this since they seem to be asking DOT to find someone else for Scottsbluff and it wouldn't be a shock if they end any other of the DEN toed locations.

So how come outfits like Boutique Air can seemingly not have an issue with pilots?

Because they are Part 135 operators. They can hire pilots with lower time. These pilots then build up to the 1500TT for the regionals and move on.

Boutique, ACO, Surf Air, etc will continue to get pilots and most likely end up the future of EAS flying.

There is a bill in commitee to lower the minimums again. It will pass eventually IMO

https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/aviation/2017/08/07/alaska-based-penair-files-for-chapter-11-reorganization/

And it just keeps getting worse.. PenAir has now filed for Chapter 11 and will be closing both the Portland and Denver hubs completely over the next 90 days.

I wish Jet Blue, Alaska or Allegiant would buy em.

SoCalPilot wrote:

https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/aviation/2017/08/07/alaska-based-penair-files-for-chapter-11-reorganization/

And it just keeps getting worse.. PenAir has now filed for Chapter 11 and will be closing both the Portland and Denver hubs completely over the next 90 days.

I flew PenAir last thanksgiving to visit my dad in LMT. It was SEA-PDX-LMT on an AS code-share ticket.

PenAir just struck me as a very poorly managed operation. I get to PDX around 5pm. The 1pm departure to LMT didn't leave until about 9pm (which I barely got on because they inappropriately removed two young guys who all the passenger around said did nothing wrong).

My evening flight was the typical - 3 hours late; 4 hours late; 5 hours late; then canceled. None of the employees had any clue about anything. One didn't even know what time their flights leaves. I didn't trust anything any of them told me, except one former AS agent from Alaska.

Coming back we left LMT almost 2 hours late because no-one knew how to start the de-icing truck.

The very young female captain and male first officer did seem highly competent though. I chatted with them a bit after landing and they seemed like class acts despite looking like there were each in high school. I had no hesitation about the folks in the front end of the airplanes, but the rest of the operation just seemed poorly managed and shoddy.

Too bad too. It would have been great to have had a reliable well managed operation from PDX to those smaller airports in the region.

Varsity1 wrote:

It's a pay shortage, not a pilot shortage. None of the big airlines or any of the good regionals are struggling to fill classes. Envoy has classes full until DECEMBER.

There is no such thing as a "pay shortage." There is no artificial cap on what airlines will pay - the only ceiling on pilot compensation is the market itself. The problem is much more fundamental - there is a disconnect between supply and demand in the market. Demand for pilot labor is far outstripping supply, and so the clearing pricing (simplified, the prevailing hourly rate) for pilot labor is steadily rising. The problem is that this is bumping up against the limits of how much cost the market - or, more specifically, certain specific niches of the market - can economically supply. As the price of pilot labor is rising, the smaller carriers are struggling to keep up because their markets and cost structures simply cannot support pilot wages competitive with larger and stronger small jet operators, let alone mainline carriers. In-demand pilots are naturally gravitating towards higher-paying small jet operators, and then to even-higher-paying mainline. There are very few - relatively - who today are voluntarily sticking around at airlines like Pen Air if they have a choice. So, the market is responding logically and predictably - the very lowest end of the scheduled commercial air service market is going to Cape Air, subsidies (e.g., EAS), or Megabus - or just the Interstate to another nearby airport.

I started another thread, as KS has filed for Bankruptcy this morning. Ending all service at PDX and DEN.