• 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 10
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4151
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:41 pm

chalupas54 wrote:
The easy answer to Cleveland: Domestic Holes. CLE, much like STL and PIT, was destroyed by dehubbing. Currently, STL and CLE have bounced back. STL much more than anyone else. CLE is focused on restoring its domestic network before focusing elsewhere.

Look, I love Columbus. It's an amazing city. However, if you're pushing this 'millennial' argument, how come STL was just named the best city for millennials in the country? Indianapolis was also very high on the list. Columbus was not in the top 20. Also, in terms of colleges, STL and IND have several major universities based in them. WUSTL (ranked higher than OSU in virtually all sectors), SLU, Butler, IUPUI, etc. EIther way, the Columbus metro area does not support the business traffic of CMH-LHR. I can assure you that the premium cabin would be empty. Also, CMH is in the range of a 757. If DL has not launched CMH-CDG, then we clearly have a problem. Also, New Orleans is NOT a "trendy, hip, millennial" city. Have you ever been? It's old, stagnant economy, high crime, rampant poverty. It has a huge tourist draw, however.

Columbus is not Austin. Austin is a booming tech city with huge corporate presences. Being a state capital does have influence, however, IND is a state capitol as well. STL is the primary airport for both Jefferson City, MO and Springfield, IL. Double whammy. Not to mention, Kansas City, MO is supportive of an STL TATL.


Those old, scurfy Fortune 500 cities, however, have significantly more air service than CMH does.

Let me close with this:

I am not trying to bash Columbus. We just have to be realistic here. The facts are:

1. CMH has pitiful domestic service for a metro of its size. Low frequency, not many non-stops.
2. Very few routes to the West Coast. The ones in place are heavily subsidized. In fact, CMH has revenue guarantees in place for CMH-OAK...and Southwest has cut that route back to seasonal.
3. The Columbus Metro CANNOT support a 787 TATL. There is no business or tourist draw to Greater Columbus that would support a flight.
4. CMH's proximity to other TATL cities proves a conflict. DTW, CVG, PIT all are close by. That drastically cuts into any CMH market draw.
5. CMH is a Delta/WN airport. American/OW has a very small presence at the airport. BA is OW. I also know that many Columbus area companies have contracts with DL and WN.
6. Club Access: No. Where will Premium Cabin passengers wait for their flight? Not in the terminal...


:checkmark: Thanks for saving me the breath!
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
joeman
Posts: 833
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:55 am

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:46 pm

I notice CLE fans stay away from such discussions as of late, but true to historical a.netter form, any discussion of domestic airline service at CLE is explained with a blend of neighboring CAK. But any discussion of potential TATL or other, Akron area catchment, and surrounding counties nearby, is quickly written off.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12491
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:57 pm

flymco753 wrote:
First of all, if DTW can give BA good incentives, and extra funds to secure this flight, there's no reason that BA wouldn't do it, because I'm pretty sure the incentives offered by IND, CMH, CLE, STL and what have you aren't as good, and I invite y'all to discuss it with me.

Sure, but the first discussion point that comes to mind is:
why are you assuming to know what the incentives being offered actually are, since most of the above haven't made theirs public?



klm617 wrote:
Unless you work for BA and are . . . blah blah blah

You did not seriously believe that this pointless soliloquy would distract from the fact that you ducked DIRECT questions addressed to you, by myself and others, for the third time in row--- did you?

Here's a helpful hint:
if you don't want to be challenged on your assertions, then why make (often ridiculous) statements that you can't substantiate?

It's pretty simple really, no "battle of whits (sic)" involved.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
mtbga
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:06 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:05 pm

Word has it that BA is about to announce their next A380 and it will be in the U.S.
 
User avatar
flyPIT
Posts: 1642
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:21 am

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:06 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
1. This is a meaningless arguement, PIT wasn't even discussed as the five cities being looked at by BA(CMH/CLE/IND/STL/BNA).

1. It was mentioned in the quote you responded to.
2. BA most certainly has looked at PIT in addition to others beyond those 5. What is "meaningless" are many of the assumptions made in these ridiculous 'my city is better than your city' A.net threads.


PIT already has 3 TATL flights, and the one non-leisure flight, DL PIT-CDG, has continually had its season shrunk because of poor seat utilization. The last TATL numbers showed PIT(29,041) had fewer pax to London than IND(30,732). PIT is less likely than even CMH.

DL to CDG started off as daily this season which was not the case in the past. Appox. 10,000 London bound travelers from Pittsburgh make the drive to IAD to catch a nonstop. Less likely than CMH? Maybe, maybe not but you have no clue either way.


Until they give an estimate (like STL/IND have) of the amount of incentives they will offer you can't possibly make the argument that they are higher.

Well you started off by making the argument that they are lower which is not necessarily the case at all.


PIT only gave 500k and 800k to DE and WW, which isn't even close to the incentives to be offered at STL/IND. What makes you think PIT will give BA the 5+ millions of dollars that STL/IND will offer, when they already have DL (who they gave 9 million), and recently have only given WW and DE 500-800k.

The amount WOW and DE received seems appropriate for those services. It has nothing to do with what they may be offering BA. DL did not receive nearly $9 million.
FLYi
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12491
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:10 pm

chalupas54 wrote:
Also, New Orleans is NOT a "trendy, hip, millennial" city. Have you ever been? It's old, stagnant economy, high crime, rampant poverty.

..........huh????

New Orleans is often sited (by everyone from Forbes, to Time, to Rolling Stone, to the local papers) as one of best and fastest growing cities in the nation for millennials to live, relocate, and/or start a business.

http://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/ ... leans.html
http://wgno.com/2017/06/06/what-makes-n ... llennials/
https://www.forbes.com/pictures/hhkk45l ... 919a083140

Even five seconds worth of research could've shown you this.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4151
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:25 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:
Also, New Orleans is NOT a "trendy, hip, millennial" city. Have you ever been? It's old, stagnant economy, high crime, rampant poverty.

..........huh????

New Orleans is often sited (by everyone from Forbes, to Time, to Rolling Stone, to the local papers) as one of best and fastest growing cities in the nation for millennials to live, relocate, and/or start a business.

http://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/ ... leans.html
http://wgno.com/2017/06/06/what-makes-n ... llennials/
https://www.forbes.com/pictures/hhkk45l ... 919a083140

Even five seconds worth of research could've shown you this.


Peope I'm sorry the millenial argument is a dead end, every city is labeled as millennial, even IND

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erincarlyl ... bc9f51666a
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/consume ... ty-n623021
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/22/the-25- ... nials.html
https://www.forbes.com/pictures/fjle45e ... 9025db598d
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
klm617
Posts: 4439
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:42 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:
Also, New Orleans is NOT a "trendy, hip, millennial" city. Have you ever been? It's old, stagnant economy, high crime, rampant poverty.

..........huh????

New Orleans is often sited (by everyone from Forbes, to Time, to Rolling Stone, to the local papers) as one of best and fastest growing cities in the nation for millennials to live, relocate, and/or start a business.

http://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/ ... leans.html
http://wgno.com/2017/06/06/what-makes-n ... llennials/
https://www.forbes.com/pictures/hhkk45l ... 919a083140

Even five seconds worth of research could've shown you this.


Peope I'm sorry the millenial argument is a dead end, every city is labeled as millennial, even IND

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erincarlyl ... bc9f51666a
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/consume ... ty-n623021
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/22/the-25- ... nials.html
https://www.forbes.com/pictures/fjle45e ... 9025db598d


Yes the Detroit area is very hip and trendy when you consider Royal Oak, Birmingham, Rochester, Auburn Hills and Ann Arbor and all these cities rely on DTW for air transportation
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
joeman
Posts: 833
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:55 am

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:49 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:
As much as I love the Columbus area, CMH is really a non-contender for this. Just because a city is millenial does not at all mean a city can sell premium seats on 787. If anything, it means the contrary. Also, the Columbus metro area is far smaller than STL, and a bit smaller than IND. Not to forget that STL and IND have traffic numbers that completely eclipse CMH. I think another aspect to this is the resurgence of Cleveland. If BA is coming to Ohio, they'll pick CLE. Cleveland has a global economy in healthcare and in petroleum. BP has a major operation in downtown Cleveland. Columbus has a very national economy. As I said for IND, CMH has a ton of domestic holes. CMH does not even have a flight to SFO. There is a heavily subsidized seasonal flight on WN to OAK. If I was in charge of route development at CMH, landing TATL service would be last on my list. Either way, as clearly pointed out by the posters on this forum, if BA is to expand in North America again, it is going to be STL or IND, not CMH or CLE.


Which Cleveland resurgence?

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/ne ... oming.html

Here are the 25-year projections for Ohio's major cities:

Columbus will grow from 2.02 million residents in 2015 to 2.65 million in 2040. That 30.8 percent growth rate is good enough for 30th out of 933 metropolitan areas tracked.

Cincinnati will grow from 2.16 million residents in 2015 to 2.33 million in 2040, a growth rate of 8 percent.

Cleveland will shrink from 2.06 million residents in 2015 to 1.89 million in 2040. That drop of 8.4 percent is the worst projected loss among the country's major metros.


The trend is clear. British Airways and Norwegian are incresingly targeting "millenial" and trendy economies (read that in a broad sense, but I think it is clear what I mean). Anything from New Orleans to Austin or Denver. Old, scurfy Fortune 500 HQ cities are out of the way! And I can't think of a worse example than BP. If CLE hasn't been able to sustain a LHR flight with oil at +$100, how is it going to be able to sustain it in the future with the help of BP?

Have our CMH friends calculated yet the exact time and date the CLE metro will be extinct?
 
chalupas54
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:29 am

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:21 am

LAX772LR wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:
Also, New Orleans is NOT a "trendy, hip, millennial" city. Have you ever been? It's old, stagnant economy, high crime, rampant poverty.

..........huh????

New Orleans is often sited (by everyone from Forbes, to Time, to Rolling Stone, to the local papers) as one of best and fastest growing cities in the nation for millennials to live, relocate, and/or start a business.

http://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/ ... leans.html
http://wgno.com/2017/06/06/what-makes-n ... llennials/
https://www.forbes.com/pictures/hhkk45l ... 919a083140

Even five seconds worth of research could've shown you this.


These are all clickbait. Every city is ranked on these at least once. I have been New Orleans many times. It's a beautiful city. But unfortunately has high crime, a stagnant economy, rampant southern racism, poverty, etc. New Orleans Metro is bleeding residents to Houston and Dallas. The only industry thriving in NOLA is tourism, which is exploding.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12491
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:17 am

chalupas54 wrote:
These are all clickbait.

TRANSLATION: Quick! ....sourced information doesn't suit my anonymous amateur's uncorroborated narrative: must find a meaningless buzzword in a desperate attempt to devalue content!


chalupas54 wrote:
New Orleans Metro is bleeding residents to Houston and Dallas. The only industry thriving in NOLA is tourism, which is exploding.

1) NOLA isn't "bleeding" to anywhere, the rest of Louisiana is. Out-migration in New Orleans has only outpaced incoming residents in 1 of the past 12yrs.

2) Tourism is not the largest, nor fastest growing, nor does it offer the highest contributing tax base of NOLA's major industries/employers-- that would be healthcare. So not sure where your "only thriving" claim is coming from, but it too is (unsurprisingly) incorrect.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
DeltaRules
Posts: 4966
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:43 am

chalupas54 wrote:

2. Very few routes to the West Coast. The ones in place are heavily subsidized. In fact, CMH has revenue guarantees in place for CMH-OAK...and Southwest has cut that route back to seasonal.
3. The Columbus Metro CANNOT support a 787 TATL. There is no business or tourist draw to Greater Columbus that would support a flight.
4. CMH's proximity to other TATL cities proves a conflict. DTW, CVG, PIT all are close by. That drastically cuts into any CMH market draw.
5. CMH is a Delta/WN airport. American/OW has a very small presence at the airport. BA is OW. I also know that many Columbus area companies have contracts with DL and WN.


2) CMH-LAX is operated by two airlines daily. STL-OAK is also reduced temporarily around the same time CMH-OAK is next February; the suggestion I saw was something to do with the fleet.
3) Ignore business for a minute: is there ANY tourist draw which would bring anyone from Europe to ANY of these cities? Ohio Stadium, the Arch, Indianapolis Motor Speedway, and the Rock 'n Roll Hall of Fame are the first things which come to mind for each and are all very niche things. The same could be said for PIT (I've honestly got nothing, there) and the very specific Country draw to BNA, yet they both have TATL service (and, in the case of PIT, with three airlines).
4) Proximity should also disqualify CLE (DTW/PIT) and IND (DTW/CVG/ORD), then.
5) You talking customer loyalty or actual stats? AA has more market share at this point than DL does.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
SunsetLimited
Posts: 853
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:20 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:53 am

Really not sure why an above poster has dragged the New Orleans economy into this discussion. BA already serves the city and this isn't an economic development forum.

To say it's bleeding residents is flat out false (metro area is growing albeit slowly), tourism is growing yet it's well known that the economy has diversified a great deal since Katrina and continues to do so, and in terms of poverty and racism, sadly that's commonplace throughout much of the American south. Both are rampant in basically any major southern city.

NOLA isn't booming like AUS or BNA but it's an increasingly popular city for young professionals to move to and it has a strong regional business base.
Last edited by SunsetLimited on Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Spread hope like fire.
 
klm617
Posts: 4439
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:54 am

chalupas54 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:
Also, New Orleans is NOT a "trendy, hip, millennial" city. Have you ever been? It's old, stagnant economy, high crime, rampant poverty.

..........huh????

New Orleans is often sited (by everyone from Forbes, to Time, to Rolling Stone, to the local papers) as one of best and fastest growing cities in the nation for millennials to live, relocate, and/or start a business.

http://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/ ... leans.html
http://wgno.com/2017/06/06/what-makes-n ... llennials/
https://www.forbes.com/pictures/hhkk45l ... 919a083140

Even five seconds worth of research could've shown you this.


These are all clickbait. Every city is ranked on these at least once. I have been New Orleans many times. It's a beautiful city. But unfortunately has high crime, a stagnant economy, rampant southern racism, poverty, etc. New Orleans Metro is bleeding residents to Houston and Dallas. The only industry thriving in NOLA is tourism, which is exploding.



Not to mention a very drug infested region.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4151
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:59 am

klm617 wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
..........huh????

New Orleans is often sited (by everyone from Forbes, to Time, to Rolling Stone, to the local papers) as one of best and fastest growing cities in the nation for millennials to live, relocate, and/or start a business.

http://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/ ... leans.html
http://wgno.com/2017/06/06/what-makes-n ... llennials/
https://www.forbes.com/pictures/hhkk45l ... 919a083140

Even five seconds worth of research could've shown you this.


These are all clickbait. Every city is ranked on these at least once. I have been New Orleans many times. It's a beautiful city. But unfortunately has high crime, a stagnant economy, rampant southern racism, poverty, etc. New Orleans Metro is bleeding residents to Houston and Dallas. The only industry thriving in NOLA is tourism, which is exploding.


Not to mention a very drug infested region.


Okay, you are getting a little off track, not sure why MSY is continued to be discussed at this point because the title of the thread is "BA's Next US Destination" and as you know MSY already has a flight.
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:16 am

Ok, clearly this thread is no longer productive. The most likely destinations for BA (and TATL service in general) after BNA would be IND and STL. That's it. End of story. CLE and CMH just don't have the appeal right now. Those three have the strongest economies of the remaining cities that don't have TATL service currently, but are vying for it. My guess is BNA and IND get BA to LHR service this fall and STL gets DL to AMS or CDG sometime within the next two years.

The End.
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 1601
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:36 am

ADrum23 wrote:
Ok, clearly this thread is no longer productive. The most likely destinations for BA (and TATL service in general) after BNA would be IND and STL. That's it. End of story. CLE and CMH just don't have the appeal right now. Those three have the strongest economies of the remaining cities that don't have TATL service currently, but are vying for it. My guess is BNA and IND get BA to LHR service this fall and STL gets DL to AMS or CDG sometime within the next two years.

The End.

I agree with you. BTW what makes you think STL won't also get BA like Ind or even Condor to Fra -- why Delta to their Euro hubs
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:43 am

stl07 wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
Ok, clearly this thread is no longer productive. The most likely destinations for BA (and TATL service in general) after BNA would be IND and STL. That's it. End of story. CLE and CMH just don't have the appeal right now. Those three have the strongest economies of the remaining cities that don't have TATL service currently, but are vying for it. My guess is BNA and IND get BA to LHR service this fall and STL gets DL to AMS or CDG sometime within the next two years.

The End.

I agree with you. BTW what makes you think STL won't also get BA like Ind or even Condor to Fra -- why Delta to their Euro hubs


I could be wrong, but it seems most of STL's European business ties come outside of the U.K, hence, why service to AMS or CDG may make more sense there (on either Delta or a Foreign carrier). BNA and IND have more ties to the UK, which is why I believe they are prioritizing London for their entrance into the TATL market.

Yes, Seasonal Condor to Frankfurt could work as well in STL (and BNA for that matter). I'll bet BNA gets seasonal Condor service to Frankfurt after the London flight is announced.
 
reasonable
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:27 am

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:24 am

klm617 wrote:
Not to mention a very drug infested region.


So is London, silly boy.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12491
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:39 am

ADrum23 wrote:
That's it. End of story. The End.

Um... no.

Heck, for all you (or anyone else) knows, a corporation in any one of those places could come out with a revenue guarantee that tosses the entire calculus for a route upside-down. We as amateurs have no idea what's being done behind the scenes.

This process isn't nearly as simple or clear-cut as some here make it out to be. If it was, it wouldn't take years of negotiation to hammer out: MSY started working directly with BA nearly a half-decade before it got its flight; similar for AUS.

Thus it's probably best to stick with public information, and then let the chips fall; without pretending to be an authoritative source.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
chalupas54
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:29 am

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:08 am

DeltaRules wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:

2. Very few routes to the West Coast. The ones in place are heavily subsidized. In fact, CMH has revenue guarantees in place for CMH-OAK...and Southwest has cut that route back to seasonal.
3. The Columbus Metro CANNOT support a 787 TATL. There is no business or tourist draw to Greater Columbus that would support a flight.
4. CMH's proximity to other TATL cities proves a conflict. DTW, CVG, PIT all are close by. That drastically cuts into any CMH market draw.
5. CMH is a Delta/WN airport. American/OW has a very small presence at the airport. BA is OW. I also know that many Columbus area companies have contracts with DL and WN.


2) CMH-LAX is operated by two airlines daily. STL-OAK is also reduced temporarily around the same time CMH-OAK is next February; the suggestion I saw was something to do with the fleet.
3) Ignore business for a minute: is there ANY tourist draw which would bring anyone from Europe to ANY of these cities? Ohio Stadium, the Arch, Indianapolis Motor Speedway, and the Rock 'n Roll Hall of Fame are the first things which come to mind for each and are all very niche things. The same could be said for PIT (I've honestly got nothing, there) and the very specific Country draw to BNA, yet they both have TATL service (and, in the case of PIT, with three airlines).
4) Proximity should also disqualify CLE (DTW/PIT) and IND (DTW/CVG/ORD), then.
5) You talking customer loyalty or actual stats? AA has more market share at this point than DL does.


PSA- done with MSY. Did not mean to open up that can of worms.

Responding-

2) Service to two west coast cities for a city as prosperous as Columbus is really pathetic. The STL part of that is due to fleet constraints. CMH is not from my understanding. Either way, CMH really has a ton of domestic holes. Giving a low cost airline like WN revenue guaruntees to fly to Oakland and not SFO is not a positive sign.
3) Yes actually. St. Louis has the largest tourist draw of the three. Many British tour companies begin and end their tours in St. Louis. St. Louis, given its problems, is still a very popular tourist destination. St. Louis has some incredible museums as well as architecture. The Indianapolis 500 is an extremely popular global sporting event that attracts people from all over the world. You got me on Cleveland, I have nothing. Also, Ohio Stadium is not a tourist attraction..that is the last thing I would see in Columbus.
4) A valid point, However CMH's proximity is much more damaging.
5) No, that's actual knowledge on my part. I have a lot of extended family in the greater Columbus area working in companies such as Cardinal Health, Huntington, and some smaller corps. They exclusively fly DL or WN. I don't believe that AA point for a second, sorry. I have flown through CMH on WN(2014), DL (2015), and AA (2017). The American gate area was dead at 6:30 AM compared to Delta or Southwest.

To finally end the CMH discussion: There has been no peep from the Columbus Airport Authority on LHR flights in a few years. That's not good. STL and IND however are actively pursuing it. Important to note that BNA is the only airport getting BA this year. No indication whatsoever that IND or STL will get them as well this time.

Also to those saying STL will get AMS on DL- what? Delta has a very weak customer base in St. Louis. They tried to build one after the demise of AA but failed miserably. Not to mention that would require Delta to change concourses, as I do not believe the A Concourse has the facilities to hold larger than a 752. The airport is not even pursuing AMS on any airline. The only airlines publicly exploring STL and that have met with the Airport Commission are British Airways and Condor.
 
chalupas54
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:29 am

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:14 am

ADrum23 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
Ok, clearly this thread is no longer productive. The most likely destinations for BA (and TATL service in general) after BNA would be IND and STL. That's it. End of story. CLE and CMH just don't have the appeal right now. Those three have the strongest economies of the remaining cities that don't have TATL service currently, but are vying for it. My guess is BNA and IND get BA to LHR service this fall and STL gets DL to AMS or CDG sometime within the next two years.

The End.

I agree with you. BTW what makes you think STL won't also get BA like Ind or even Condor to Fra -- why Delta to their Euro hubs


I could be wrong, but it seems most of STL's European business ties come outside of the U.K, hence, why service to AMS or CDG may make more sense there (on either Delta or a Foreign carrier). BNA and IND have more ties to the UK, which is why I believe they are prioritizing London for their entrance into the TATL market.

Yes, Seasonal Condor to Frankfurt could work as well in STL (and BNA for that matter). I'll bet BNA gets seasonal Condor service to Frankfurt after the London flight is announced.


No, the vast majority of St. Louis' business ties are in the UK. Express Scripts, Emerson, GrayBar, WWT, Bull Moose (based in London), and many others have major operations in and around London. The St. Louis startup scene also has heavy UK ties. Yes, STL does have ties to Germany, but none that have heavy business travel. AB-InBev, Monsanto, BUNGE, Bayer, all have local operations that function domestically. Not to forget as I said earlier, STL has companies in Britain lobbying for service. Not the case for IND.

Also, BNA is the only airport getting BA this fall. We have no indication that there will be two.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 2891
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:04 am

I keep seeing STL-AMS mentioned. I think there is no way in the world that happens before STL-London/CDG/FRA. Those in my opinion, would all happen before STL-AMS, which means it probably won't ever happen. I still think BA is the most likely because of the AA ties in STL still. I also can't see DL being the one to start TATL service in STL. If they did, I think CDG would be the only route and it might be more likely to run on Air France. Although I would love for there to be more of a DL presence in STL, it just hasn't worked out. I think BA is the only option for a legacy type carrier.
 
TheGeordielad
Posts: 905
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:08 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:57 pm

Don't know if said but Fort Myers from Gatwick? I don't know if the route has any demand even seasonal but just a guess.
 
TheGeordielad
Posts: 905
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:08 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:59 pm

mtbga wrote:
Word has it that BA is about to announce their next A380 and it will be in the U.S.

Its Chicago
http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... -may-2018/
 
Robert1010
Posts: 168
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:23 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:18 pm

joeman wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:
As much as I love the Columbus area, CMH is really a non-contender for this. Just because a city is millenial does not at all mean a city can sell premium seats on 787. If anything, it means the contrary. Also, the Columbus metro area is far smaller than STL, and a bit smaller than IND. Not to forget that STL and IND have traffic numbers that completely eclipse CMH. I think another aspect to this is the resurgence of Cleveland. If BA is coming to Ohio, they'll pick CLE. Cleveland has a global economy in healthcare and in petroleum. BP has a major operation in downtown Cleveland. Columbus has a very national economy. As I said for IND, CMH has a ton of domestic holes. CMH does not even have a flight to SFO. There is a heavily subsidized seasonal flight on WN to OAK. If I was in charge of route development at CMH, landing TATL service would be last on my list. Either way, as clearly pointed out by the posters on this forum, if BA is to expand in North America again, it is going to be STL or IND, not CMH or CLE.


Which Cleveland resurgence?

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/ne ... oming.html

Here are the 25-year projections for Ohio's major cities:

Columbus will grow from 2.02 million residents in 2015 to 2.65 million in 2040. That 30.8 percent growth rate is good enough for 30th out of 933 metropolitan areas tracked.

Cincinnati will grow from 2.16 million residents in 2015 to 2.33 million in 2040, a growth rate of 8 percent.

Cleveland will shrink from 2.06 million residents in 2015 to 1.89 million in 2040. That drop of 8.4 percent is the worst projected loss among the country's major metros.


The trend is clear. British Airways and Norwegian are incresingly targeting "millenial" and trendy economies (read that in a broad sense, but I think it is clear what I mean). Anything from New Orleans to Austin or Denver. Old, scurfy Fortune 500 HQ cities are out of the way! And I can't think of a worse example than BP. If CLE hasn't been able to sustain a LHR flight with oil at +$100, how is it going to be able to sustain it in the future with the help of BP?

Have our CMH friends calculated yet the exact time and date the CLE metro will be extinct?

Pretty funny but not sure if the metro will be extinct! Just saw the 2016 CSA and much to my surprise CLE was 15th , so there will always be potential , think facilities play a major factor as well!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combine ... tical_area
 
Lexy
Posts: 1480
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:05 am

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:25 pm

BNA is a done deal. Officially announced today starting May 2018 5 days a week on 788.
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
izbtmnhd
Posts: 875
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:31 pm

CLE is an absolute disaster. I mean with it's domestic non-stops to SEA, PDX, SFO, LAS, SAN, LAS, PHX all despite not having a hub or even a real focus city. And it shows that nobody believes in CLE because every domestic airline serves Hopkins sans AS. Clearly the lack of international service has nothing to do with the awful customs facility along with the costs of the airport. The metro just can't support air service even though it's on pace to match the pax count of the final year of the UA hub either this year or next with just O&D. Yes, CLE is on life support! :lol:
 
DeltaRules
Posts: 4966
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:57 pm

chalupas54 wrote:
5) No, that's actual knowledge on my part. I have a lot of extended family in the greater Columbus area working in companies such as Cardinal Health, Huntington, and some smaller corps. They exclusively fly DL or WN. I don't believe that AA point for a second, sorry. I have flown through CMH on WN(2014), DL (2015), and AA (2017). The American gate area was dead at 6:30 AM compared to Delta or Southwest.


You don't have to believe it. But the numbers back it up:
http://flycolumbus.com/files/airline-in ... -stats.pdf
http://columbusairports.com/files/publi ... alysis.pdf

I'm not going to drag this on much longer, but I almost exclusively fly DL from CMH also but, when I do fly AA (I have three choices to get to DAB- one of them hasn't come back yet), I'm typically going to CLT between 3-6 pm. Try finding a place to sit in the gate areas at B22/24/26 and B28 with DCA/PHL/CLT leaving the triple jetway, ORD on an E175 out of B28, and LAX leaving B23 across the hall. All the other LAA destinations (DFW/JFK/LGA) seem hopping up the concourse, too. I also can't help but notice that that's about the time a flight to London might leave, even if it were operated a) a few times a week as BNA will or b) on a 757.
Last edited by DeltaRules on Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13993
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:59 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
CLE is an absolute disaster. I mean with it's domestic non-stops to SEA, PDX, SFO, LAS, SAN, LAS, PHX all despite not having a hub or even a real focus city. And it shows that nobody believes in CLE because every domestic airline serves Hopkins sans AS. Clearly the lack of international service has nothing to do with the awful customs facility along with the costs of the airport. The metro just can't support air service even though it's on pace to match the pax count of the final year of the UA hub either this year or next with just O&D. Yes, CLE is on life support! :lol:


It is - or should be - pretty clear from the BNA announcement that if airports with woefully inadequate international arrival facilities are willing to work on them even a little, BA will come to town.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5387
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:48 pm

Robert1010 wrote:
Pretty funny but not sure if the metro will be extinct! Just saw the 2016 CSA and much to my surprise CLE was 15th , so there will always be potential , think facilities play a major factor as well!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combine ... tical_area


The trend is interesting nonetheless.

2016 Estimate 2010 Census

CLE: Cleveland-Akron-Canton, OH Combined Statistical Area 3,483,311 3,515,646 −0.92%
CMH: Columbus-Marion-Zanesville, OH Combined Statistical Area 2,443,402 2,308,509 +5.84%

Cleveland is one of the very few (and the largest among them) metro areas in the US that has lost population between 2010 and 2016, which has been overall positive for American demographics and economy. Usually companies do not like to invest in shrinking markets. Btw by comparison some of the metro areas recently announced by BA:

BNA: Nashville-Davidson–Murfreesboro, TN Combined Statistical Area 1,987,778 1,788,434 +11.15%
MSY: New Orleans-Metairie-Hammond, LA-MS Combined Statistical Area 1,501,213 1,413,965 +6.17%

For some reason I cannot find Austin in the list (?).
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4151
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:52 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Robert1010 wrote:
Pretty funny but not sure if the metro will be extinct! Just saw the 2016 CSA and much to my surprise CLE was 15th , so there will always be potential , think facilities play a major factor as well!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combine ... tical_area


The trend is interesting nonetheless.

2016 Estimate 2010 Census

CLE: Cleveland-Akron-Canton, OH Combined Statistical Area 3,483,311 3,515,646 −0.92%
CMH: Columbus-Marion-Zanesville, OH Combined Statistical Area 2,443,402 2,308,509 +5.84%

Cleveland is one of the very few (and the largest among them) metro areas in the US that has lost population between 2010 and 2016, which has been overall positive for American demographics and economy. Usually companies do not like to invest in shrinking markets. Btw by comparison some of the metro areas recently announced by BA:

BNA: Nashville-Davidson–Murfreesboro, TN Combined Statistical Area 1,987,778 1,788,434 +11.15%
MSY: New Orleans-Metairie-Hammond, LA-MS Combined Statistical Area 1,501,213 1,413,965 +6.17%

For some reason I cannot find Austin in the list (?).


For AUS you must combine it with SAT to get the CSA
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5387
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:56 pm

Interestingly, BA announces BNA with a video featuring Kings of Leon, a "millennial" band https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9atlC4I_Jl8

So where are those Fortune 500 BP execs that will fill BA out of CLE? :)

Midwestindy wrote:
For AUS you must combine it with SAT to get the CSA


I know but I can't find either San Antonio in that list.
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 1601
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:58 pm

chalupas54 wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:

2. Very few routes to the West Coast. The ones in place are heavily subsidized. In fact, CMH has revenue guarantees in place for CMH-OAK...and Southwest has cut that route back to seasonal.
3. The Columbus Metro CANNOT support a 787 TATL. There is no business or tourist draw to Greater Columbus that would support a flight.
4. CMH's proximity to other TATL cities proves a conflict. DTW, CVG, PIT all are close by. That drastically cuts into any CMH market draw.
5. CMH is a Delta/WN airport. American/OW has a very small presence at the airport. BA is OW. I also know that many Columbus area companies have contracts with DL and WN.


2) CMH-LAX is operated by two airlines daily. STL-OAK is also reduced temporarily around the same time CMH-OAK is next February; the suggestion I saw was something to do with the fleet.
3) Ignore business for a minute: is there ANY tourist draw which would bring anyone from Europe to ANY of these cities? Ohio Stadium, the Arch, Indianapolis Motor Speedway, and the Rock 'n Roll Hall of Fame are the first things which come to mind for each and are all very niche things. The same could be said for PIT (I've honestly got nothing, there) and the very specific Country draw to BNA, yet they both have TATL service (and, in the case of PIT, with three airlines).
4) Proximity should also disqualify CLE (DTW/PIT) and IND (DTW/CVG/ORD), then.
5) You talking customer loyalty or actual stats? AA has more market share at this point than DL does.


PSA- done with MSY. Did not mean to open up that can of worms.

Responding-

2) Service to two west coast cities for a city as prosperous as Columbus is really pathetic. The STL part of that is due to fleet constraints. CMH is not from my understanding. Either way, CMH really has a ton of domestic holes. Giving a low cost airline like WN revenue guaruntees to fly to Oakland and not SFO is not a positive sign.
3) Yes actually. St. Louis has the largest tourist draw of the three. Many British tour companies begin and end their tours in St. Louis. St. Louis, given its problems, is still a very popular tourist destination. St. Louis has some incredible museums as well as architecture. The Indianapolis 500 is an extremely popular global sporting event that attracts people from all over the world. You got me on Cleveland, I have nothing. Also, Ohio Stadium is not a tourist attraction..that is the last thing I would see in Columbus.
4) A valid point, However CMH's proximity is much more damaging.
5) No, that's actual knowledge on my part. I have a lot of extended family in the greater Columbus area working in companies such as Cardinal Health, Huntington, and some smaller corps. They exclusively fly DL or WN. I don't believe that AA point for a second, sorry. I have flown through CMH on WN(2014), DL (2015), and AA (2017). The American gate area was dead at 6:30 AM compared to Delta or Southwest.

To finally end the CMH discussion: There has been no peep from the Columbus Airport Authority on LHR flights in a few years. That's not good. STL and IND however are actively pursuing it. Important to note that BNA is the only airport getting BA this year. No indication whatsoever that IND or STL will get them as well this time.

Also to those saying STL will get AMS on DL- what? Delta has a very weak customer base in St. Louis. They tried to build one after the demise of AA but failed miserably. Not to mention that would require Delta to change concourses, as I do not believe the A Concourse has the facilities to hold larger than a 752. The airport is not even pursuing AMS on any airline. The only airlines publicly exploring STL and that have met with the Airport Commission are British Airways and Condor.

Lufthansa did meet with STL too. Just wondering, where did you see the Condor met with STL.
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
DeltaRules
Posts: 4966
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:58 pm

For what it's worth, somebody in the Ohio thread recalled a Columbus Dispatch story where BA was specifically named as having visited CMH about service. You never know.

SCQ83 wrote:
Robert1010 wrote:
Pretty funny but not sure if the metro will be extinct! Just saw the 2016 CSA and much to my surprise CLE was 15th , so there will always be potential , think facilities play a major factor as well!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combine ... tical_area


The trend is interesting nonetheless.

2016 Estimate 2010 Census

CLE: Cleveland-Akron-Canton, OH Combined Statistical Area 3,483,311 3,515,646 −0.92%
CMH: Columbus-Marion-Zanesville, OH Combined Statistical Area 2,443,402 2,308,509 +5.84%

Cleveland is one of the very few (and the largest among them) metro areas in the US that has lost population between 2010 and 2016, which has been overall positive for American demographics and economy. Usually companies do not like to invest in shrinking markets. Btw by comparison some of the metro areas recently announced by BA:

BNA: Nashville-Davidson–Murfreesboro, TN Combined Statistical Area 1,987,778 1,788,434 +11.15%
MSY: New Orleans-Metairie-Hammond, LA-MS Combined Statistical Area 1,501,213 1,413,965 +6.17%

For some reason I cannot find Austin in the list (?).


I think people underestimate the wide swath of people CMH/LCK serve. Draw an arc from Wilmington->Athens->Marietta->Cambridge and up parts of I-77 and CMH is going to still be the closest airport which would be a candidate for TATL service (because DAY, CRW, PKB, YNG and CAK aren't going to get it). There are even areas North of Columbus where CMH is closer than CLE or DTW; Mansfield and Lima, for example, are toss-ups.

Zanesville's always been a bedroom community for commuters to Columbus (only 40 minutes to an hour away depending on where you're going and much more affordable) and real estate prices there are insane right now, with plenty of takers. It's also on the Western end of the Marcellus Shale find they discovered a few years ago.
Last edited by DeltaRules on Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4151
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:01 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Interestingly, BA announces BNA with a video featuring Kings of Leon, a "millennial" band https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9atlC4I_Jl8

So where are those Fortune 500 BP execs that will fill BA out of CLE? :)

Midwestindy wrote:
For AUS you must combine it with SAT to get the CSA


I know but I can't find either San Antonio in that list.


I meant SAT(Metro) + AUS(Metro)= 2,454,061 + 2,056,405 = 4,510,466
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
Malayil
Posts: 141
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:20 pm

Is CSA the best metric for airport market size, or is MSA better?
 
jbpdx
Posts: 741
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:37 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:25 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
Interestingly, BA announces BNA with a video featuring Kings of Leon, a "millennial" band https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9atlC4I_Jl8

So where are those Fortune 500 BP execs that will fill BA out of CLE? :)

Midwestindy wrote:
For AUS you must combine it with SAT to get the CSA


I know but I can't find either San Antonio in that list.


I meant SAT(Metro) + AUS(Metro)= 2,454,061 + 2,056,405 = 4,510,466



San Antonio and Austin are separate Metropolitan Statistical Areas, not one CSA. They don't fit the criteria for being considered a Combined Statistical Area, which is why they aren't on the CSA list.
Major airports with no PDX nonstops: MIA, FLL, TPA, IND, MSY, CLE, CVG, PIT, RDU
 
MichianaOrthx
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:19 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:34 pm

Any chance they give SJU a try again?
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4151
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:34 pm

jbpdx wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
Interestingly, BA announces BNA with a video featuring Kings of Leon, a "millennial" band https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9atlC4I_Jl8

So where are those Fortune 500 BP execs that will fill BA out of CLE? :)



I know but I can't find either San Antonio in that list.


I meant SAT(Metro) + AUS(Metro)= 2,454,061 + 2,056,405 = 4,510,466



San Antonio and Austin are separate Metropolitan Statistical Areas, not one CSA. They don't fit the criteria for being considered a Combined Statistical Area, which is why they aren't on the CSA list.


WE KNOW! but in the airline sense of things AUS+SAT are combined when talking about int'l air service.
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
Cunard
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:37 pm

MichianaOrthx wrote:
Any chance they give SJU a try again?


There's no real demand for SJU to be restarted 'again' as IB can take care of what ever traffic there is via MAD.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
User avatar
flymco753
Posts: 3271
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:54 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
why are you assuming to know what the incentives being offered actually are, since most of the above haven't made theirs public?
I didn't take into account separate funding from external offerings other than the airport authorities or counties themselves. I'm sure IND and STL put together an impressive amount in that aspect but larger airports will always have the upper end when it comes to air service incentives, that's the observation I've made.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13993
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:56 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
jbpdx wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

I meant SAT(Metro) + AUS(Metro)= 2,454,061 + 2,056,405 = 4,510,466



San Antonio and Austin are separate Metropolitan Statistical Areas, not one CSA. They don't fit the criteria for being considered a Combined Statistical Area, which is why they aren't on the CSA list.


WE KNOW! but in the airline sense of things AUS+SAT are combined when talking about int'l air service.


I don't think it's quite that easy. I absolutely think some SAT passengers drive to AUS to catch BA, but it's equally clear that the percentage of SAT TATL passengers who do that is less than 100 percent.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
izbtmnhd
Posts: 875
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:58 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Robert1010 wrote:
Pretty funny but not sure if the metro will be extinct! Just saw the 2016 CSA and much to my surprise CLE was 15th , so there will always be potential , think facilities play a major factor as well!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combine ... tical_area


The trend is interesting nonetheless.

2016 Estimate 2010 Census

CLE: Cleveland-Akron-Canton, OH Combined Statistical Area 3,483,311 3,515,646 −0.92%
CMH: Columbus-Marion-Zanesville, OH Combined Statistical Area 2,443,402 2,308,509 +5.84%

Cleveland is one of the very few (and the largest among them) metro areas in the US that has lost population between 2010 and 2016, which has been overall positive for American demographics and economy. Usually companies do not like to invest in shrinking markets. Btw by comparison some of the metro areas recently announced by BA:

BNA: Nashville-Davidson–Murfreesboro, TN Combined Statistical Area 1,987,778 1,788,434 +11.15%
MSY: New Orleans-Metairie-Hammond, LA-MS Combined Statistical Area 1,501,213 1,413,965 +6.17%

For some reason I cannot find Austin in the list (?).


Citing population estimates are great and all but if CLE is such a terrible market why is all the domestic feed going towards CLE?

I mean CMH is paying WN so it can access San Fran through OAK. Meanwhile CLE has service to places like PDX and SAN.

It's mainly about available O&D which can be quite different than population.
 
User avatar
Geminijets101
Posts: 165
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:42 am

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:00 pm

so what if SAT is too close to Austin?

FLL is close to MIA and BA still started flying to FLL.
Cíao
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13993
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:01 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
I mean CMH is paying WN so it can access San Fran through OAK. Meanwhile CLE has service to places like PDX and SAN.


I realize that there is rhetorical value in putting down OAK, but why exactly is OAK an inferior bay area airport for CMH passengers? SFO offers TPAC connections, which aren't much good to people in our part of the country, but it also offers fog and congestion. I have more service to SFO than to OAK or SJC in my city but use OAK and SJC for more than 90 percent of my bay area travel.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
DeltaRules
Posts: 4966
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:08 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
Robert1010 wrote:
Pretty funny but not sure if the metro will be extinct! Just saw the 2016 CSA and much to my surprise CLE was 15th , so there will always be potential , think facilities play a major factor as well!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combine ... tical_area


The trend is interesting nonetheless.

2016 Estimate 2010 Census

CLE: Cleveland-Akron-Canton, OH Combined Statistical Area 3,483,311 3,515,646 −0.92%
CMH: Columbus-Marion-Zanesville, OH Combined Statistical Area 2,443,402 2,308,509 +5.84%

Cleveland is one of the very few (and the largest among them) metro areas in the US that has lost population between 2010 and 2016, which has been overall positive for American demographics and economy. Usually companies do not like to invest in shrinking markets. Btw by comparison some of the metro areas recently announced by BA:

BNA: Nashville-Davidson–Murfreesboro, TN Combined Statistical Area 1,987,778 1,788,434 +11.15%
MSY: New Orleans-Metairie-Hammond, LA-MS Combined Statistical Area 1,501,213 1,413,965 +6.17%

For some reason I cannot find Austin in the list (?).


Citing population estimates are great and all but if CLE is such a terrible market why is all the domestic feed going towards CLE?

I mean CMH is paying WN so it can access San Fran through OAK. Meanwhile CLE has service to places like PDX and SAN.

It's mainly about available O&D which can be quite different than population.


The domestic feed went to CLE because a hub died and opportunistic airlines came in to pick apart at the carcass like vultures.

(edit- F9, one possible candidate for CMH-West Coast service, hasn't even been at CMH two years this time around. Who's to say they're not looking at PDX/SAN/SEA?)

WN said CMH-OAK was doing well and Franklin County said no money had been spent to counter losses as of June 2016.

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/ne ... pular.html
Last edited by DeltaRules on Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
izbtmnhd
Posts: 875
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:10 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
I mean CMH is paying WN so it can access San Fran through OAK. Meanwhile CLE has service to places like PDX and SAN.


I realize that there is rhetorical value in putting down OAK, but why exactly is OAK an inferior bay area airport for CMH passengers? SFO offers TPAC connections, which aren't much good to people in our part of the country, but it also offers fog and congestion. I have more service to SFO than to OAK or SJC in my city but use OAK and SJC for more than 90 percent of my bay area travel.


I'm not putting down OAK, it's the airport to access San Fran there. It's a fact.

OK look at it this way taking OAK out: CLE has 3x daily SFO flights in the summer and 1x daily and a second weekend flight in the winter with zero subsidies. CMH won't even have any direct service to a major domestic market in San Fran for a month this winter paying WN. I mean that's a real metric to show the difference between the two markets.

Not trying to slam CMH either but if we're going to drag out population statistics to pull Cleveland down then we certainly can show the O&D differences as well.

It's a very complex situation.
Last edited by izbtmnhd on Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4151
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:12 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
jbpdx wrote:


San Antonio and Austin are separate Metropolitan Statistical Areas, not one CSA. They don't fit the criteria for being considered a Combined Statistical Area, which is why they aren't on the CSA list.


WE KNOW! but in the airline sense of things AUS+SAT are combined when talking about int'l air service.


I don't think it's quite that easy. I absolutely think some SAT passengers drive to AUS to catch BA, but it's equally clear that the percentage of SAT TATL passengers who do that is less than 100 percent.


Well BA explicity stated that was one reason they chose AUS.
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
Jshank83
Posts: 2891
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:22 pm

Malayil wrote:
Is CSA the best metric for airport market size, or is MSA better?


On a.net, whichever one helps your argument more...
Last edited by Jshank83 on Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 10

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos