Cubsrule
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:22 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

WE KNOW! but in the airline sense of things AUS+SAT are combined when talking about int'l air service.


I don't think it's quite that easy. I absolutely think some SAT passengers drive to AUS to catch BA, but it's equally clear that the percentage of SAT TATL passengers who do that is less than 100 percent.


Well BA explicity stated that was one reason they chose AUS.


As it should be. But adding the populations together almost certainly overstates the case.

izbtmnhd wrote:
OK look at it this way taking OAK out: CLE has 3x daily SFO flights in the summer and 1x daily and a second weekend flight in the winter with zero subsidies. CMH won't even have any direct service to a major domestic market in San Fran for a month this winter paying WN. I mean that's a real metric to show the difference between the two markets.


CLE's leading legacy carrier also has a hub at SFO. Not so at CMH. The PDX and SAN comparisons are fair. I think the bay area comparison is too complex to be worthwhile.
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DeltaRules
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:22 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
I mean CMH is paying WN so it can access San Fran through OAK. Meanwhile CLE has service to places like PDX and SAN.


I realize that there is rhetorical value in putting down OAK, but why exactly is OAK an inferior bay area airport for CMH passengers? SFO offers TPAC connections, which aren't much good to people in our part of the country, but it also offers fog and congestion. I have more service to SFO than to OAK or SJC in my city but use OAK and SJC for more than 90 percent of my bay area travel.


I'm not putting down OAK, it's the airport to access San Fran there. It's a fact.

OK look at it this way taking OAK out: CLE has 3x daily SFO flights in the summer and 1x daily and a second weekend flight in the winter with zero subsidies. CMH won't even have any direct service to a major domestic market in San Fran for a month this winter paying WN. I mean that's a real metric to show the difference between the two markets.


At least one of those flights is operated by an airline which loves to overlap routes already operated by other airlines and which finally appears committed to CMH after a couple brief visits (post-YX merger when they ran MKE and MCI and left, then briefly returning with service to TTN before pulling up stakes for CLE and CVG) and has been at CMH a year and a half in its current form. Again, who's to say the West Coast isn't in their plans? UA's are a holdover from the hub days to another hub, and all we've been able to figure over the years in the Ohio threads (including one of us who's a former employee of the airline in question at the airport in question) is that UA prefers to route likely SFO passengers through ORD instead.

Beyond the west coast and a couple randoms (MKE, CHS, BDL, SJU (though I'm curious as to whether G4 might try that)), you look at the rest of CLE vs CMH/LCK on the route map and they're awfully similar when it comes to nonstops.
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WaywardMemphian
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:40 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

WE KNOW! but in the airline sense of things AUS+SAT are combined when talking about int'l air service.


I don't think it's quite that easy. I absolutely think some SAT passengers drive to AUS to catch BA, but it's equally clear that the percentage of SAT TATL passengers who do that is less than 100 percent.


Well BA explicity stated that was one reason they chose AUS.


New Orleans said they sold a catchment area of within a 4hr drive of MSY as part of their pitch. All airports do when seeking service like this. It's why I think Kjos is serious with his mentioning of Memphis for Norwegian, it's what is within 4 hrs of interstate of MEM, not just Memphis proper.It's about setting up a bunch of open jawed connections. Now someone can do the Music Triangle and either start of stop at BNA or MSY on BA without the bother of connecting on this side of the pond.

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Midwestindy
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:57 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

I realize that there is rhetorical value in putting down OAK, but why exactly is OAK an inferior bay area airport for CMH passengers? SFO offers TPAC connections, which aren't much good to people in our part of the country, but it also offers fog and congestion. I have more service to SFO than to OAK or SJC in my city but use OAK and SJC for more than 90 percent of my bay area travel.


I'm not putting down OAK, it's the airport to access San Fran there. It's a fact.

OK look at it this way taking OAK out: CLE has 3x daily SFO flights in the summer and 1x daily and a second weekend flight in the winter with zero subsidies. CMH won't even have any direct service to a major domestic market in San Fran for a month this winter paying WN. I mean that's a real metric to show the difference between the two markets.


At least one of those flights is operated by an airline which loves to overlap routes already operated by other airlines and which finally appears committed to CMH after a couple brief visits (post-YX merger when they ran MKE and MCI and left, then briefly returning with service to TTN before pulling up stakes for CLE and CVG) and has been at CMH a year and a half in its current form. Again, who's to say the West Coast isn't in their plans? UA's are a holdover from the hub days to another hub, and all we've been able to figure over the years in the Ohio threads (including one of us who's a former employee of the airline in question at the airport in question) is that UA prefers to route likely SFO passengers through ORD instead.

Beyond the west coast and a couple randoms (MKE, CHS, BDL, SJU (though I'm curious as to whether G4 might try that)), you look at the rest of CLE vs CMH/LCK on the route map and they're awfully similar when it comes to nonstops.


Slightly off track:
Nonstop flights to the west coast are good indicators of the health of the business sector in most cities. The PDEW from CMH to West Coast is pretty bad compared to its Ohio counterparts in CMH/CVG so it makes sense why CMH has fewer nonstops. The frequencies and quantity of CLE nonstops to SEA/SFO/SAN/PDX +plus BDL/MKE show that CLE's business sector is stronger than CMH. With respect to the WN flight between OAK-CMH there was a reason there was a reduction in service (albeit only seasonal). Looking at the T-100 data from 2016 Jan (49.8%), Feb(52.5%), Apr(61%) were pretty terrible in terms of LFs, so there was probably a reason WN chose to trim that route (even if it is just for one year).
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jbpdx
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:35 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Nonstop flights to the west coast are good indicators of the health of the business sector in most cities. The PDEW from CMH to West Coast is pretty bad compared to its Ohio counterparts... The frequencies and quantity of CLE nonstops to SEA/SFO/SAN/PDX +plus BDL/MKE show that CLE's business sector is stronger than CMH.



Frontier's CLE-PDX is (was?) seasonal and 3x/week. And not sure it's coming back. They're down to only one flight in and out of Portland daily (to Denver) as of November.
Major airports with no PDX nonstops: MIA, FLL, TPA, IND, MSY, CLE, CVG, PIT, RDU; +BWI, +PHL, +YYZ
 
chalupas54
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:57 pm

Now that BNA is official, I think we can narrow any discussion to STL and IND. CMH and CLE are not happening anytime soon, I'm sorry.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:23 pm

chalupas54 wrote:
Now that BNA is official, I think we can narrow any discussion to STL and IND. CMH and CLE are not happening anytime soon, I'm sorry.


Based on the information from IND over the past two weeks, it looks like DL AMS-IND MIGHT be happening by the end of the year. If that is true, than that would exclude IND from the discussion.

(If AMS-IND doesn't happen by Fall/Late Summer 2018, then I would think IND would come before STL for BA, but with this information it looks like DL will enter IND before BA.)

Further digging will tell you that CLE is more interested in ULCCs/LCCs to Europe than an airline like BA.

Now you are left with CMH/STL

STL has many more pax to europe than CMH, and has the business pax as well. You need to be able to fill the front of the plane, and STL can do it better than CMH.

If everything I said is true, then it seems like STL is the next choice.
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LAX772LR
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:43 pm

flymco753 wrote:
but larger airports will always have the upper end when it comes to air service incentives, that's the observation I've made.

Sure, but you're ignoring the mitigating factor that comes right alongside that:
While larger metros HAVE significantly more resources, they also have less NEED to use it.

As just a random (but demonstrative) example:
Los Angeles has immeasurably more resources than say, Cleveland; but who do you think is going to put out a more sweetheart incentive package for a flight to LON....... the place that already has 7 carriers operating 11 nonstops every day, or the place that's trying to gain even 1?
Last edited by LAX772LR on Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cubsrule
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:45 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:
Now that BNA is official, I think we can narrow any discussion to STL and IND. CMH and CLE are not happening anytime soon, I'm sorry.


Based on the information from IND over the past two weeks, it looks like DL AMS-IND MIGHT be happening by the end of the year. If that is true, than that would exclude IND from the discussion.

(If AMS-IND doesn't happen by Fall/Late Summer 2018, then I would think IND would come before STL for BA, but with this information it looks like DL will enter IND before BA.)

Further digging will tell you that CLE is more interested in ULCCs/LCCs to Europe than an airline like BA.

Now you are left with CMH/STL

STL has many more pax to europe than CMH, and has the business pax as well. You need to be able to fill the front of the plane, and STL can do it better than CMH.

If everything I said is true, then it seems like STL is the next choice.


The issue for STL is its flat population and economic growth numbers. I've said before that places like IND and STL have/had a better case for TATL service today than does BNA, but that BNA is likely to have the upper hand in 5-10 years. BA's selection of BNA shows, I think, a look toward the future. At least for now, the future looks a lot brighter in Columbus than it does in Saint Louis. I think STL made a grave mistake in not making a push for service ~5 years ago, but (as usual) politics got in the way.
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izbtmnhd
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:54 pm

chalupas54 wrote:
Now that BNA is official, I think we can narrow any discussion to STL and IND. CMH and CLE are not happening anytime soon, I'm sorry.


Why apologize? You're guessing like everyone else! :lol:
 
brilondon
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:58 pm

DLPMMM wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:

CLT and CVG already have TATL service due to being a AA and DL hub respectively. Personally, I think both airports should be dehubbed though, so if in the (highly unlikely) event that ever happened, BA could start.


Why would AA dehub CLT???

Lowest cost per enplanement, southeastern connecting hub AA was missing in their network of, and arguably their most profitable hub.
That statement lost you all credibility.


He has credibility but he was just wrong, CVG is not really a hub by any stretch of the imagination.
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izbtmnhd
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:03 pm

jbpdx wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Nonstop flights to the west coast are good indicators of the health of the business sector in most cities. The PDEW from CMH to West Coast is pretty bad compared to its Ohio counterparts... The frequencies and quantity of CLE nonstops to SEA/SFO/SAN/PDX +plus BDL/MKE show that CLE's business sector is stronger than CMH.



Frontier's CLE-PDX is (was?) seasonal and 3x/week. And not sure it's coming back. They're down to only one flight in and out of Portland daily (to Denver) as of November.


It's been flown by F9 or UA seasonally since 2011. It's likely coming back.

It's funny how CLE has all this domestic service but now it's teetering on the edge because there are seasonal cancellations or comparing markets is too complex or Cleveland gets "too much" UA service.

CLE is growing at a good clip, has healthy domestic competition, still has a competing airport in CAK and is approaching UA hub pax totals driven just by O&D and yet the end is near and no carrier should fly there. Ignore those facts getting in the way of this good story! :lol:
 
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flymco753
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:16 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
but larger airports will always have the upper end when it comes to air service incentives, that's the observation I've made.

Sure, but you're ignoring the mitigating factor that comes right alongside that:
While larger metros HAVE significantly more resources, they also have less NEED to use it.

As just a random (but demonstrative) example:
Los Angeles has immeasurably more resources than say, Cleveland; but who do you think is going to put out a more sweetheart incentive package for a flight to LON....... the place that already has 7 carriers operating 11 nonstops every day, or the place that's trying to gain even 1?
I see what you mean, and I agree. (maybe hypocritical if I didn't previously). That's probably why it'll take BA a minute to return to DTW or begin MCO-LHR.
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chalupas54
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:49 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:
Now that BNA is official, I think we can narrow any discussion to STL and IND. CMH and CLE are not happening anytime soon, I'm sorry.


Based on the information from IND over the past two weeks, it looks like DL AMS-IND MIGHT be happening by the end of the year. If that is true, than that would exclude IND from the discussion.

(If AMS-IND doesn't happen by Fall/Late Summer 2018, then I would think IND would come before STL for BA, but with this information it looks like DL will enter IND before BA.)

Further digging will tell you that CLE is more interested in ULCCs/LCCs to Europe than an airline like BA.

Now you are left with CMH/STL

STL has many more pax to europe than CMH, and has the business pax as well. You need to be able to fill the front of the plane, and STL can do it better than CMH.

If everything I said is true, then it seems like STL is the next choice.


The issue for STL is its flat population and economic growth numbers. I've said before that places like IND and STL have/had a better case for TATL service today than does BNA, but that BNA is likely to have the upper hand in 5-10 years. BA's selection of BNA shows, I think, a look toward the future. At least for now, the future looks a lot brighter in Columbus than it does in Saint Louis. I think STL made a grave mistake in not making a push for service ~5 years ago, but (as usual) politics got in the way.


STL had worse economic numbers 5 years ago. According to airport releases, they have been courting BA since 2010. I think it's fair to pick on STL's problems. Thankfully, however, the region's economy is really beginning to turn around. STL is growing as a region, just not as fast as Columbus. STL will pass the 3 million mark by 2020. STL has had a lot of problems thrown its way that other regions could never have even been prepared to deal with. The explosive start up scene in STL, as well as various large corporate expansions in the area, only highlight brighter days for the region.
 
ADrum23
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:05 pm

chalupas54 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

Based on the information from IND over the past two weeks, it looks like DL AMS-IND MIGHT be happening by the end of the year. If that is true, than that would exclude IND from the discussion.

(If AMS-IND doesn't happen by Fall/Late Summer 2018, then I would think IND would come before STL for BA, but with this information it looks like DL will enter IND before BA.)

Further digging will tell you that CLE is more interested in ULCCs/LCCs to Europe than an airline like BA.

Now you are left with CMH/STL

STL has many more pax to europe than CMH, and has the business pax as well. You need to be able to fill the front of the plane, and STL can do it better than CMH.

If everything I said is true, then it seems like STL is the next choice.


The issue for STL is its flat population and economic growth numbers. I've said before that places like IND and STL have/had a better case for TATL service today than does BNA, but that BNA is likely to have the upper hand in 5-10 years. BA's selection of BNA shows, I think, a look toward the future. At least for now, the future looks a lot brighter in Columbus than it does in Saint Louis. I think STL made a grave mistake in not making a push for service ~5 years ago, but (as usual) politics got in the way.


STL had worse economic numbers 5 years ago. According to airport releases, they have been courting BA since 2010. I think it's fair to pick on STL's problems. Thankfully, however, the region's economy is really beginning to turn around. STL is growing as a region, just not as fast as Columbus. STL will pass the 3 million mark by 2020. STL has had a lot of problems thrown its way that other regions could never have even been prepared to deal with. The explosive start up scene in STL, as well as various large corporate expansions in the area, only highlight brighter days for the region.


I'm sorry to say this, but I think a lot of the growth in St. Louis has come because of people fleeing Illinois, and not necessarily because they genuinely want to move there.
 
ADrum23
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:06 pm

The next city to get TATL service (whether BA or not) will be IND IMO.
 
chalupas54
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:36 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

The issue for STL is its flat population and economic growth numbers. I've said before that places like IND and STL have/had a better case for TATL service today than does BNA, but that BNA is likely to have the upper hand in 5-10 years. BA's selection of BNA shows, I think, a look toward the future. At least for now, the future looks a lot brighter in Columbus than it does in Saint Louis. I think STL made a grave mistake in not making a push for service ~5 years ago, but (as usual) politics got in the way.


STL had worse economic numbers 5 years ago. According to airport releases, they have been courting BA since 2010. I think it's fair to pick on STL's problems. Thankfully, however, the region's economy is really beginning to turn around. STL is growing as a region, just not as fast as Columbus. STL will pass the 3 million mark by 2020. STL has had a lot of problems thrown its way that other regions could never have even been prepared to deal with. The explosive start up scene in STL, as well as various large corporate expansions in the area, only highlight brighter days for the region.


I'm sorry to say this, but I think a lot of the growth in St. Louis has come because of people fleeing Illinois, and not necessarily because they genuinely want to move there.


There are other places to move to if they want to flee Illinois. Let me try to think of another major city nearby....hmm Oh! Indianapolis, which is also pooling many people from Illinois. I don't understand why you're apologizing for people moving to St. Louis. The region is extremely affordable and has incredible cultural institutions. STL also has a huge corporate presence with multiple Fortune 500/1000s HQs. I believe Indianapolis only has Eli Lily (which is rumored to be courting a move to the Chicago metro). Companies like Centene, Express Scripts, Energizer, and World Wide Technology are some of the fastest growing companies in the region. MasterCard, Allianz, and Citi also have large offices in St. Louis. In fact, Microsoft is moving and opening a large office in Cortex, St. Louis' technology district. I think Pfizer is also expanding out in Chesterfield.

There is a reason why some people refer to Indianapolis as "India-no-place". Haha, I kid. :lol:
 
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MinnesotaPlanes
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:39 pm

This may be my bias, but I think that even though MSP gets TATL service as a DL hub, it deserves more international airlines. Right now the only big ones we have are KLM and AF. Condor and Icelandair service us as well but that is seasonal/not very often. I would love to see airlines like LH, BA, ANA, EI, AM and maybe even EK,KE and TK cone to MSP. Maybe some more domestic traffic from B6 or HA also.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:51 pm

chalupas54 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

Based on the information from IND over the past two weeks, it looks like DL AMS-IND MIGHT be happening by the end of the year. If that is true, than that would exclude IND from the discussion.

(If AMS-IND doesn't happen by Fall/Late Summer 2018, then I would think IND would come before STL for BA, but with this information it looks like DL will enter IND before BA.)

Further digging will tell you that CLE is more interested in ULCCs/LCCs to Europe than an airline like BA.

Now you are left with CMH/STL

STL has many more pax to europe than CMH, and has the business pax as well. You need to be able to fill the front of the plane, and STL can do it better than CMH.

If everything I said is true, then it seems like STL is the next choice.


The issue for STL is its flat population and economic growth numbers. I've said before that places like IND and STL have/had a better case for TATL service today than does BNA, but that BNA is likely to have the upper hand in 5-10 years. BA's selection of BNA shows, I think, a look toward the future. At least for now, the future looks a lot brighter in Columbus than it does in Saint Louis. I think STL made a grave mistake in not making a push for service ~5 years ago, but (as usual) politics got in the way.


STL had worse economic numbers 5 years ago. According to airport releases, they have been courting BA since 2010. I think it's fair to pick on STL's problems. Thankfully, however, the region's economy is really beginning to turn around. STL is growing as a region, just not as fast as Columbus. STL will pass the 3 million mark by 2020. STL has had a lot of problems thrown its way that other regions could never have even been prepared to deal with. The explosive start up scene in STL, as well as various large corporate expansions in the area, only highlight brighter days for the region.


Everywhere had worse economic numbers five years ago, and things are looking better for STL for sure. But, as has been the case for the past 140 years, stupid intra-regional squabbling will still prevent Saint Louis from reaching its full potential.
Last edited by Cubsrule on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ADrum23
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:59 pm

chalupas54 wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:

STL had worse economic numbers 5 years ago. According to airport releases, they have been courting BA since 2010. I think it's fair to pick on STL's problems. Thankfully, however, the region's economy is really beginning to turn around. STL is growing as a region, just not as fast as Columbus. STL will pass the 3 million mark by 2020. STL has had a lot of problems thrown its way that other regions could never have even been prepared to deal with. The explosive start up scene in STL, as well as various large corporate expansions in the area, only highlight brighter days for the region.


I'm sorry to say this, but I think a lot of the growth in St. Louis has come because of people fleeing Illinois, and not necessarily because they genuinely want to move there.


There are other places to move to if they want to flee Illinois. Let me try to think of another major city nearby....hmm Oh! Indianapolis, which is also pooling many people from Illinois. I don't understand why you're apologizing for people moving to St. Louis. The region is extremely affordable and has incredible cultural institutions. STL also has a huge corporate presence with multiple Fortune 500/1000s HQs. I believe Indianapolis only has Eli Lily (which is rumored to be courting a move to the Chicago metro). Companies like Centene, Express Scripts, Energizer, and World Wide Technology are some of the fastest growing companies in the region. MasterCard, Allianz, and Citi also have large offices in St. Louis. In fact, Microsoft is moving and opening a large office in Cortex, St. Louis' technology district. I think Pfizer is also expanding out in Chesterfield.

There is a reason why some people refer to Indianapolis as "India-no-place". Haha, I kid. :lol:


Maybe I came across wrong. I am not suggesting STL is a bad place for business or to live, but I know several people who have moved in that area (on the Missouri side) because of one reason (to get out of Illinois). Not saying the 3 or 4 families I know speak for everyone else, but I have a hunch that this may be a large factor. And actually, that is to the advantage of St. Louis, they have a lot of opportunity to tap into the growing dysfunction in Illinois and market their metro area as a nice alternative (on the Missouri side, that is).
 
joeman
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:03 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
1. This is a meaningless arguement, PIT wasn't even discussed as the five cities being looked at by BA(CMH/CLE/IND/STL/BNA).

1. It was mentioned in the quote you responded to.
2. BA most certainly has looked at PIT in addition to others beyond those 5. What is "meaningless" are many of the assumptions made in these ridiculous 'my city is better than your city' A.net threads.

So right on. Been in every large U.S. city, every one with good and bad...looking for that utopia. Nothing but childplay as mid sized cities attempt to escape to any degree the mega-hub stranglehold they support.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:13 pm

chalupas54 wrote:

There are other places to move to if they want to flee Illinois. Let me try to think of another major city nearby....hmm Oh! Indianapolis, which is also pooling many people from Illinois. I don't understand why you're apologizing for people moving to St. Louis. The region is extremely affordable and has incredible cultural institutions. STL also has a huge corporate presence with multiple Fortune 500/1000s HQs. I believe Indianapolis only has Eli Lily (which is rumored to be courting a move to the Chicago metro). Companies like Centene, Express Scripts, Energizer, and World Wide Technology are some of the fastest growing companies in the region. MasterCard, Allianz, and Citi also have large offices in St. Louis. In fact, Microsoft is moving and opening a large office in Cortex, St. Louis' technology district. I think Pfizer is also expanding out in Chesterfield.

There is a reason why some people refer to Indianapolis as "India-no-place". Haha, I kid. :lol:


I can't tell whether you are trolling or not?

1.Considering, St.Louis is literally right across the river from Illinois it is safe to say more people are going there from illinois than Indianapolis
2.Fortune 500 companies, don't directly correlate to TATL flights, because it doesn't account for North American Headquarters, and also doesn't account for the fact that a lot of F500 companies do little to no travel between Europe and the US. If they directly correlated than PDX would never have a flight over STL.
3.Eli Lilly isn't moving, they just invested 100 mill in Indy earlier in the spring, to even suggest such a thing lost you credibility from the get-go
4.The Indianapolis area has Rolls-Royce, Cummins, Eli Lilly, Roche, Dow Agro, Salesforce, Allison Transmission, Schnecker USA, Genesys, Ingram Mico, Appiro, Infosys, e.t.c all of which are global companies with large presenses within Indianapolis.
5.STL doesn't an event the size of the month of May to draw Int'l pax
6.The Microsoft office you are talking about only is adding 150 jobs serving only Missouri, Kansas, and Tennessee, nothing to write home about http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... fc12b.html
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AAvgeek744
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:13 pm

I think it is perfectly fine and encouraging that people in various cities have civic boosterism. However, at some point reality has to set in. Not every city in the U.S. is going to get international flights, TATL or TPAC. More cities are likely to get service to Mexico, the Caribbean, and Latin America. No one wants to admit it about their own city is going to be left out, but it's obvious.
 
chalupas54
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:24 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:

There are other places to move to if they want to flee Illinois. Let me try to think of another major city nearby....hmm Oh! Indianapolis, which is also pooling many people from Illinois. I don't understand why you're apologizing for people moving to St. Louis. The region is extremely affordable and has incredible cultural institutions. STL also has a huge corporate presence with multiple Fortune 500/1000s HQs. I believe Indianapolis only has Eli Lily (which is rumored to be courting a move to the Chicago metro). Companies like Centene, Express Scripts, Energizer, and World Wide Technology are some of the fastest growing companies in the region. MasterCard, Allianz, and Citi also have large offices in St. Louis. In fact, Microsoft is moving and opening a large office in Cortex, St. Louis' technology district. I think Pfizer is also expanding out in Chesterfield.

There is a reason why some people refer to Indianapolis as "India-no-place". Haha, I kid. :lol:


I can't tell whether you are trolling or not?

1.Considering, St.Louis is literally right across the river from Illinois it is safe to say more people are going there from illinois than Indianapolis
2.Fortune 500 companies, don't directly correlate to TATL flights, because it doesn't account for North American Headquarters, and also doesn't account for the fact that a lot of F500 companies do little to no travel between Europe and the US. If they directly correlated than PDX would never have a flight over STL.
3.Eli Lilly isn't moving, they just invested 100 mill in Indy earlier in the spring, to even suggest such a thing lost you credibility from the get-go
4.The Indianapolis area has Rolls-Royce, Cummins, Eli Lilly, Roche, Dow Agro, Salesforce, Allison Transmission, Schnecker USA, Genesys, Ingram Mico, Appiro, Infosys, e.t.c all of which are global companies with large presenses within Indianapolis.
5.STL doesn't an event the size of the month of May to draw Int'l pax
6.The Microsoft office you are talking about only is adding 150 jobs serving only Missouri, Kansas, and Tennessee, nothing to write home about http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... fc12b.html


I'm actually not trolling. Fortune 500s actually do have a major influence if they support the service. In the case of STL, they do.
In regards to Eli Lilly, that's more or less what I've been told in the last few years. I read that they eyed Chicago for corporate relocation in 2014. No longer the case, and thankfully for Indy. Would have been a huge blow to the region.
Good for Indy. STL has way more global companies.Again, STL has British companies in the UK pulling for STL service. Not the case for IND. Also, Rolls Royce is no longer a British company. Salesforce's Indianapolis office is a domestic branch. The SFO office is the global HQ.
Good for Indy having the Indy 500. It is a global event. I'm sure that weighs in. However, it is one event and motor racing is more continental Europe than it is British. I would expect that to woo Delta for AMS more than BA for LHR.
Actually, the Microsoft office is a big deal. There are only 30 of those offices globally, none in a city like St. Louis. Sure, 130 Jobs may not be a huge number, but it only injects more outside money into STL's startup scene, which as stated earlier, has many UK companies investing in it.
 
fsafsx
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:25 pm

I think British air should go to Milwaukee or Minneapolis next.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:25 pm

AAvgeek744 wrote:
I think it is perfectly fine and encouraging that people in various cities have civic boosterism. However, at some point reality has to set in. Not every city in the U.S. is going to get international flights, TATL or TPAC. More cities are likely to get service to Mexico, the Caribbean, and Latin America. No one wants to admit it about their own city is going to be left out, but it's obvious.


Tbh, every city on this list will have a TATL flight by 2019/2020, probably even multiple, but the discussion is basically who will have it first. I think if MEM is being considered, than virtually every US city is a possibility, at least with a A321LR.
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ADrum23
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:34 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
AAvgeek744 wrote:
I think it is perfectly fine and encouraging that people in various cities have civic boosterism. However, at some point reality has to set in. Not every city in the U.S. is going to get international flights, TATL or TPAC. More cities are likely to get service to Mexico, the Caribbean, and Latin America. No one wants to admit it about their own city is going to be left out, but it's obvious.


Tbh, every city on this list will have a TATL flight by 2019/2020, probably even multiple, but the discussion is basically who will have it first. I think if MEM is being considered, than virtually every US city is a possibility, at least with a A321LR.


Well, not every city mid-sized city deserves TATL service. Honestly, the only other mid-sized cities out there that don't already have TATL service that deserve it are IND, STL and maybe CMH (thought I don't think they deserve it, it is not quite as attractive as other places).

People that are talking about MKE, MEM and even MCI need to get real, those places are not attractive at all for TATL service. MKE is too close to ORD, MEM is quickly being dwarfed by BNA and MCI is in the middle of nowhere.

The big question now is, which mid-sized city that has or will have TATL service (AUS, RDU, MSY, BNA, CVG, IND, STL, CLT, etc) will be the first to get TPAC service. I think the focus will be shifting to that within a few years, after the TATL boom winds down.
 
chalupas54
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:43 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
AAvgeek744 wrote:
I think it is perfectly fine and encouraging that people in various cities have civic boosterism. However, at some point reality has to set in. Not every city in the U.S. is going to get international flights, TATL or TPAC. More cities are likely to get service to Mexico, the Caribbean, and Latin America. No one wants to admit it about their own city is going to be left out, but it's obvious.


Tbh, every city on this list will have a TATL flight by 2019/2020, probably even multiple, but the discussion is basically who will have it first. I think if MEM is being considered, than virtually every US city is a possibility, at least with a A321LR.


Well, not every city mid-sized city deserves TATL service. Honestly, the only other mid-sized cities out there that don't already have TATL service that deserve it are IND, STL and maybe CMH (thought I don't think they deserve it, it is not quite as attractive as other places).

People that are talking about MKE, MEM and even MCI need to get real, those places are not attractive at all for TATL service. MKE is too close to ORD, MEM is quickly being dwarfed by BNA and MCI is in the middle of nowhere.

The big question now is, which mid-sized city that has or will have TATL service (AUS, RDU, MSY, BNA, CVG, IND, STL, CLT, etc) will be the first to get TPAC service. I think the focus will be shifting to that within a few years, after the TATL boom winds down.


I agree with MCI. KCI is an absolute trash heap. Definitely the WORST airport in the United States. It's almost an hour outside of KC. I believe the city council also shot down proposals for a new airport.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:59 pm

chalupas54 wrote:

I'm actually not trolling. Fortune 500s actually do have a major influence if they support the service. In the case of STL, they do.
In regards to Eli Lilly, that's more or less what I've been told in the last few years. I read that they eyed Chicago for corporate relocation in 2014. No longer the case, and thankfully for Indy. Would have been a huge blow to the region.
Good for Indy. STL has way more global companies.Again, STL has British companies in the UK pulling for STL service. Not the case for IND. Also, Rolls Royce is no longer a British company. Salesforce's Indianapolis office is a domestic branch. The SFO office is the global HQ.
Good for Indy having the Indy 500. It is a global event. I'm sure that weighs in. However, it is one event and motor racing is more continental Europe than it is British. I would expect that to woo Delta for AMS more than BA for LHR.
Actually, the Microsoft office is a big deal. There are only 30 of those offices globally, none in a city like St. Louis. Sure, 130 Jobs may not be a huge number, but it only injects more outside money into STL's startup scene, which as stated earlier, has many UK companies investing in it.


1. Clearly not since STL doesn't have a TATL flight, and cities with way fewer F500 companies have multiple.
2. I am not sure why you are under the interpretation "Salesforce Indianapolis" is a domestic branch."Salesforce Indianapolis" is actually Salesforce Marketing Cloud, which was, until the time it was bought out, Exact Target. Salesforce Marketing Cloud is virtually its own entity operating under the name of Salesforce, and it has its own offices in London, Sao Paulo, Sydney, Melbourne, Munich, Paris, Stockholm, e.t.c really nothing domestic about that.
3.British or not there is heavy travel from IND to LON, because of RR.
4.The point was that a Mircosoft regional office presiding over Kansas, Missouri, and Tennessee is not a reason to add TATL service.
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chalupas54
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:02 am

Midwestindy wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:

I'm actually not trolling. Fortune 500s actually do have a major influence if they support the service. In the case of STL, they do.
In regards to Eli Lilly, that's more or less what I've been told in the last few years. I read that they eyed Chicago for corporate relocation in 2014. No longer the case, and thankfully for Indy. Would have been a huge blow to the region.
Good for Indy. STL has way more global companies.Again, STL has British companies in the UK pulling for STL service. Not the case for IND. Also, Rolls Royce is no longer a British company. Salesforce's Indianapolis office is a domestic branch. The SFO office is the global HQ.
Good for Indy having the Indy 500. It is a global event. I'm sure that weighs in. However, it is one event and motor racing is more continental Europe than it is British. I would expect that to woo Delta for AMS more than BA for LHR.
Actually, the Microsoft office is a big deal. There are only 30 of those offices globally, none in a city like St. Louis. Sure, 130 Jobs may not be a huge number, but it only injects more outside money into STL's startup scene, which as stated earlier, has many UK companies investing in it.


1. Clearly not since STL doesn't have a TATL flight, and cities with way fewer F500 companies have multiple.
2. I am not sure why you are under the interpretation "Salesforce Indianapolis" is a domestic branch."Salesforce Indianapolis" is actually Salesforce Marketing Cloud, which was, until the time it was bought out, Exact Target. Salesforce Marketing Cloud is virtually its own entity operating under the name of Salesforce, and it has its own offices in London, Sao Paulo, Sydney, Melbourne, Munich, Paris, Stockholm, e.t.c really nothing domestic about that.
3.The point was that a Mircosoft regional office presiding over Kansas, Missouri, and Tennessee is not a reason to add TATL service.


You literally are not reading what I'm saying. IF IF IF IF IF IF IF and ONLY IF Fortune 500s can give revenue guarantees, THAT IS A PLUS. In the past, STL's blue chips have not supported TATL because domestic holes were not filled. Now that STL has a complete domestic network, the business community has come behind it. Again, more companies in STL are publicly supportive of TATL than in IND.
In regards to Salesforce, I did not know that so you take that point.
In regards to Microsoft, I was more so introducing that to highlight recent economics of the STL region. However, the STL startup community in Cortex has been extremely supportive of TATL and many UK companies are investing in STL startups. That's what I was trying to say.
 
ADrum23
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:08 am

chalupas54 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:

I'm actually not trolling. Fortune 500s actually do have a major influence if they support the service. In the case of STL, they do.
In regards to Eli Lilly, that's more or less what I've been told in the last few years. I read that they eyed Chicago for corporate relocation in 2014. No longer the case, and thankfully for Indy. Would have been a huge blow to the region.
Good for Indy. STL has way more global companies.Again, STL has British companies in the UK pulling for STL service. Not the case for IND. Also, Rolls Royce is no longer a British company. Salesforce's Indianapolis office is a domestic branch. The SFO office is the global HQ.
Good for Indy having the Indy 500. It is a global event. I'm sure that weighs in. However, it is one event and motor racing is more continental Europe than it is British. I would expect that to woo Delta for AMS more than BA for LHR.
Actually, the Microsoft office is a big deal. There are only 30 of those offices globally, none in a city like St. Louis. Sure, 130 Jobs may not be a huge number, but it only injects more outside money into STL's startup scene, which as stated earlier, has many UK companies investing in it.


1. Clearly not since STL doesn't have a TATL flight, and cities with way fewer F500 companies have multiple.
2. I am not sure why you are under the interpretation "Salesforce Indianapolis" is a domestic branch."Salesforce Indianapolis" is actually Salesforce Marketing Cloud, which was, until the time it was bought out, Exact Target. Salesforce Marketing Cloud is virtually its own entity operating under the name of Salesforce, and it has its own offices in London, Sao Paulo, Sydney, Melbourne, Munich, Paris, Stockholm, e.t.c really nothing domestic about that.
3.The point was that a Mircosoft regional office presiding over Kansas, Missouri, and Tennessee is not a reason to add TATL service.


You literally are not reading what I'm saying. IF IF IF IF IF IF IF and ONLY IF Fortune 500s can give revenue guarantees, THAT IS A PLUS. In the past, STL's blue chips have not supported TATL because domestic holes were not filled. Now that STL has a complete domestic network, the business community has come behind it. Again, more companies in STL are publicly supportive of TATL than in IND.
In regards to Salesforce, I did not know that so you take that point.
In regards to Microsoft, I was more so introducing that to highlight recent economics of the STL region. However, the STL startup community in Cortex has been extremely supportive of TATL and many UK companies are investing in STL startups. That's what I was trying to say.


Dude, calm down. No one is suggesting here that STL is not deserving of TATL service, but IND has just as strong of a case too. Both will get it within the next 2 years.

Frankly though, I think IND is much more attractive than STL. Indianapolis is almost like a Nashville north. I know IND is pushing for it just as much as BNA did.

If STL is so attractive, why is it that it is taking so long for STL to get anything? It is the largest market/airport without service to Europe. There has got to be some underlying reasons as to why STL has not obtained TATL yet.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:24 am

ADrum23 wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:
You literally are not reading what I'm saying. IF IF IF IF IF IF IF and ONLY IF Fortune 500s can give revenue guarantees, THAT IS A PLUS. In the past, STL's blue chips have not supported TATL because domestic holes were not filled. Now that STL has a complete domestic network, the business community has come behind it. Again, more companies in STL are publicly supportive of TATL than in IND.
In regards to Salesforce, I did not know that so you take that point.
In regards to Microsoft, I was more so introducing that to highlight recent economics of the STL region. However, the STL startup community in Cortex has been extremely supportive of TATL and many UK companies are investing in STL startups. That's what I was trying to say.


Dude, calm down. No one is suggesting here that STL is not deserving of TATL service, but IND has just as strong of a case too. Both will get it within the next 2 years.

Frankly though, I think IND is much more attractive than STL. Indianapolis is almost like a Nashville north. I know IND is pushing for it just as much as BNA did.

If STL is so attractive, why is it that it is taking so long for STL to get anything? It is the largest market/airport without service to Europe. There has got to be some underlying reasons as to why STL has not obtained TATL yet.


Thank you for saving me the breath!

Why would an international company in IND not be supportive of a TATL flight, do you have any evidence to prove that companies in IND wouldn't be supportive of TATL flights?

I think you are overplaying the foreign investment into STL start ups thing though, IND is seeing plenty of foreign investment as well..

Not saying STL isn't very attractive though in terms of TATL flight.
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stl07
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:27 am

ADrum23 wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

1. Clearly not since STL doesn't have a TATL flight, and cities with way fewer F500 companies have multiple.
2. I am not sure why you are under the interpretation "Salesforce Indianapolis" is a domestic branch."Salesforce Indianapolis" is actually Salesforce Marketing Cloud, which was, until the time it was bought out, Exact Target. Salesforce Marketing Cloud is virtually its own entity operating under the name of Salesforce, and it has its own offices in London, Sao Paulo, Sydney, Melbourne, Munich, Paris, Stockholm, e.t.c really nothing domestic about that.
3.The point was that a Mircosoft regional office presiding over Kansas, Missouri, and Tennessee is not a reason to add TATL service.


You literally are not reading what I'm saying. IF IF IF IF IF IF IF and ONLY IF Fortune 500s can give revenue guarantees, THAT IS A PLUS. In the past, STL's blue chips have not supported TATL because domestic holes were not filled. Now that STL has a complete domestic network, the business community has come behind it. Again, more companies in STL are publicly supportive of TATL than in IND.
In regards to Salesforce, I did not know that so you take that point.
In regards to Microsoft, I was more so introducing that to highlight recent economics of the STL region. However, the STL startup community in Cortex has been extremely supportive of TATL and many UK companies are investing in STL startups. That's what I was trying to say.


Dude, calm down. No one is suggesting here that STL is not deserving of TATL service, but IND has just as strong of a case too. Both will get it within the next 2 years.

Frankly though, I think IND is much more attractive than STL. Indianapolis is almost like a Nashville north. I know IND is pushing for it just as much as BNA did.

If STL is so attractive, why is it that it is taking so long for STL to get anything? It is the largest market/airport without service to Europe. There has got to be some underlying reasons as to why STL has not obtained TATL yet.

Lack of non private incentives like other cities. Personally I see that as a plus as it can be redeployed into the city or even make the airport better, and STL will get a TATL service when it actually deserves it based on numbers and availability of aircraft , not only because of ultra high incentives like at PIT.
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Midwestindy
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:32 am

stl07 wrote:
STL will get a TATL service when it actually deserves it based on numbers and availability of aircraft , not only because of ultra high incentives like at PIT.


Zing!
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WWads
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:38 am

brilondon wrote:
DLPMMM wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:

CLT and CVG already have TATL service due to being a AA and DL hub respectively. Personally, I think both airports should be dehubbed though, so if in the (highly unlikely) event that ever happened, BA could start.


Why would AA dehub CLT???

Lowest cost per enplanement, southeastern connecting hub AA was missing in their network of, and arguably their most profitable hub.
That statement lost you all credibility.


He has credibility but he was just wrong, CVG is not really a hub by any stretch of the imagination.


Yes, it is. Still has a sizable FA crew base, and a 737 pilot base.

Mainline: Atlanta, Boston, Denver, Detroit, Fort Lauderdale, Fort Myers, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Orlando, Paris–Charles de Gaulle, Salt Lake City, San Francisco, Tampa
Seasonal: Cancún, New York–JFK, New York–LaGuardia, Seattle/Tacoma, Washington–National

Delta Connection: Baltimore, Boston, Charlotte, Chicago–O'Hare, Dallas/Fort Worth, Detroit, Fayetteville/Bentonville, Hartford, Houston–Intercontinental, Kansas City, Memphis, Milwaukee, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Nashville, New York–JFK, New York–LaGuardia, Newark, Philadelphia, Raleigh/Durham, St. Louis, Toronto–Pearson, Washington–National
Seasonal: Denver, Fort Lauderdale, Fort Myers, Tampa
Last edited by WWads on Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:41 am

WWads wrote:
brilondon wrote:
DLPMMM wrote:

Why would AA dehub CLT???

Lowest cost per enplanement, southeastern connecting hub AA was missing in their network of, and arguably their most profitable hub.
That statement lost you all credibility.


He has credibility but he was just wrong, CVG is not really a hub by any stretch of the imagination.


Yes it is.

Mainline: Atlanta, Boston, Denver, Detroit, Fort Lauderdale, Fort Myers, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Orlando, Paris–Charles de Gaulle, Salt Lake City, San Francisco, Tampa
Seasonal: Cancún, New York–JFK, New York–LaGuardia, Seattle/Tacoma, Washington–National

Delta Connection Baltimore, Boston, Charlotte, Chicago–O'Hare, Dallas/Fort Worth, Detroit, Fayetteville/Bentonville, Hartford, Houston–Intercontinental, Kansas City, Memphis, Milwaukee, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Nashville, New York–JFK, New York–LaGuardia, Newark, Philadelphia, Raleigh/Durham, St. Louis, Toronto–Pearson, Washington–National
Seasonal: Denver, Fort Lauderdale, Fort Myers, Tampa


CVG is a hub, but mostly in name, it is overwhelmingly O&D.
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ADrum23
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:13 am

Midwestindy wrote:
WWads wrote:
brilondon wrote:

He has credibility but he was just wrong, CVG is not really a hub by any stretch of the imagination.


Yes it is.

Mainline: Atlanta, Boston, Denver, Detroit, Fort Lauderdale, Fort Myers, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Orlando, Paris–Charles de Gaulle, Salt Lake City, San Francisco, Tampa
Seasonal: Cancún, New York–JFK, New York–LaGuardia, Seattle/Tacoma, Washington–National

Delta Connection Baltimore, Boston, Charlotte, Chicago–O'Hare, Dallas/Fort Worth, Detroit, Fayetteville/Bentonville, Hartford, Houston–Intercontinental, Kansas City, Memphis, Milwaukee, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Nashville, New York–JFK, New York–LaGuardia, Newark, Philadelphia, Raleigh/Durham, St. Louis, Toronto–Pearson, Washington–National
Seasonal: Denver, Fort Lauderdale, Fort Myers, Tampa


CVG is a hub, but mostly in name, it is overwhelmingly O&D.


And DL just needs to close it already, if they are not going to commit to rebuilding it (which they shouldn't, it is too close to other hubs in DTW and MSP). If I were CVG, I'd want them to close it so the airport could open up to more competition.

If they did close the hub, maybe they could shift the CVG-CDG to IND?
 
globalcabotage
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:28 am

Now that AUS, BNA, and MSY have LHR flights on BA, let's let the next entitled make their cases.

Moderators, can we please start new threads (or single thread - US airports with no TATL service seeking service)!

IND entitled to BA LHR service thread,
MCI entitled to BA LHR service thread,
(sane for CMH, MCI, MKE, STL, etc. - airports that do not have TATL service).
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:34 am

globalcabotage wrote:
Now that AUS, BNA, and MSY have LHR flights on BA, let's let the next entitled make their cases.

Moderators, can we please start new threads (or single thread - US airports with no TATL service seeking service)!

IND entitled to BA LHR service thread,
MCI entitled to BA LHR service thread,
(sane for CMH, MCI, MKE, STL, etc. - airports that do not have TATL service).


Oh boy, here comes globalcabotage, with his weekly rant on this subject... :roll:
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flymco753
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:35 am

Midwestindy wrote:
globalcabotage wrote:
Now that AUS, BNA, and MSY have LHR flights on BA, let's let the next entitled make their cases.

Moderators, can we please start new threads (or single thread - US airports with no TATL service seeking service)!

IND entitled to BA LHR service thread,
MCI entitled to BA LHR service thread,
(sane for CMH, MCI, MKE, STL, etc. - airports that do not have TATL service).


Oh boy, here comes globalcabotage, with his weekly rant on this subject... :roll:
All you have to do is mention DTW, that'll get things rolling.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:32 am

And the number one DTW fanboy on the other thread is already butthurt about BA in BNA. He must be going nuts now......
 
WWads
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:40 am

ADrum23 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
WWads wrote:

Yes it is.

Mainline: Atlanta, Boston, Denver, Detroit, Fort Lauderdale, Fort Myers, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Orlando, Paris–Charles de Gaulle, Salt Lake City, San Francisco, Tampa
Seasonal: Cancún, New York–JFK, New York–LaGuardia, Seattle/Tacoma, Washington–National

Delta Connection Baltimore, Boston, Charlotte, Chicago–O'Hare, Dallas/Fort Worth, Detroit, Fayetteville/Bentonville, Hartford, Houston–Intercontinental, Kansas City, Memphis, Milwaukee, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Nashville, New York–JFK, New York–LaGuardia, Newark, Philadelphia, Raleigh/Durham, St. Louis, Toronto–Pearson, Washington–National
Seasonal: Denver, Fort Lauderdale, Fort Myers, Tampa


CVG is a hub, but mostly in name, it is overwhelmingly O&D.


And DL just needs to close it already, if they are not going to commit to rebuilding it (which they shouldn't, it is too close to other hubs in DTW and MSP). If I were CVG, I'd want them to close it so the airport could open up to more competition.

If they did close the hub, maybe they could shift the CVG-CDG to IND?


And why should they do that? The operation as-is generates a lot of profit. This isn't pre-bankruptcy DL. They aren't keeping CVG open just for kicks. To put it bluntly, IND doesn't have TATL service because no airline is willing to offer it at whatever the projected levels of profit are. DL is willing to operate CVG-CDG because it makes money. Both from corporate contracts, and the hundreds of tons of GE engine parts that are shipped to France every year.

DL serves a lot of destinations that would go unserved if CVG were more like IND or CMH. People in Cincy are generally satisfied with the status quo.
 
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Midwestindy
Posts: 4152
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:14 am

WWads wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

CVG is a hub, but mostly in name, it is overwhelmingly O&D.


And DL just needs to close it already, if they are not going to commit to rebuilding it (which they shouldn't, it is too close to other hubs in DTW and MSP). If I were CVG, I'd want them to close it so the airport could open up to more competition.

If they did close the hub, maybe they could shift the CVG-CDG to IND?


And why should they do that? The operation as-is generates a lot of profit. This isn't pre-bankruptcy DL. They aren't keeping CVG open just for kicks. To put it bluntly, IND doesn't have TATL service because no airline is willing to offer it at whatever the projected levels of profit are. DL is willing to operate CVG-CDG because it makes money. Both from corporate contracts, and the hundreds of tons of GE engine parts that are shipped to France every year.

DL serves a lot of destinations that would go unserved if CVG were more like IND or CMH. People in Cincy are generally satisfied with the status quo.


Do you have any information on how much revenue it generates, if you do please list it. I am genuinely interested

DL could run IND-CDG and still ship parts to France for GE, because IND is much closer to the engine manufacturing/repair/assembly center in Lafayette than CVG is. DL could easily ship those parts made in Lafayette on the IND-CDG flight, and it would cut the transportation time/cost for GE. DL also has the corporate contracts in IND from the NWA focus city days, and could easily add other companies to the list who could put cargo in the belly. Just fyi, the data I am looking at showed the DL CDG-CVG also saw a drop in average LFs from 78% in 2015 to 69% in 2016 as well.

Not saying it would ever happen though.
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MinnesotaPlanes
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:57 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:25 am

fsafsx wrote:
I think British air should go to Milwaukee or Minneapolis next.
Yesssssss. Maybe MN first though, since milwaukee is not as big.
 
LambertMan
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:26 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:45 am

Some of the rationale used throughout this thread is both comical and bizarre from STL and IND supporters.

STL is clearly a larger market - statistics show it. Who gets the next flight is dependent on how sweet the pot gets. Indianapolis, Columbus, St. Louis, etc. are all fringe markets that need support. Nashville and New Orleans included.
 
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Midwestindy
Posts: 4152
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:49 am

LambertMan wrote:
Some of the rationale used throughout this thread is both comical and bizarre from STL and IND supporters.

STL is clearly a larger market - statistics show it. Who gets the next flight is dependent on how sweet the pot gets. Indianapolis, Columbus, St. Louis, etc. are all fringe markets that need support. Nashville and New Orleans included.


Not quite sure what you mean by any of this...
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masseybrown
Posts: 5384
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:15 am

Malayil wrote:
Is CSA the best metric for airport market size, or is MSA better?


It's a handy and reasonable option - the exception being cities with more than one commercial airport in their CSA.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2567
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:38 am

Midwestindy wrote:
WWads wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:

And DL just needs to close it already, if they are not going to commit to rebuilding it (which they shouldn't, it is too close to other hubs in DTW and MSP). If I were CVG, I'd want them to close it so the airport could open up to more competition.

If they did close the hub, maybe they could shift the CVG-CDG to IND?


And why should they do that? The operation as-is generates a lot of profit. This isn't pre-bankruptcy DL. They aren't keeping CVG open just for kicks. To put it bluntly, IND doesn't have TATL service because no airline is willing to offer it at whatever the projected levels of profit are. DL is willing to operate CVG-CDG because it makes money. Both from corporate contracts, and the hundreds of tons of GE engine parts that are shipped to France every year.

DL serves a lot of destinations that would go unserved if CVG were more like IND or CMH. People in Cincy are generally satisfied with the status quo.


Do you have any information on how much revenue it generates, if you do please list it. I am genuinely interested

DL could run IND-CDG and still ship parts to France for GE, because IND is much closer to the engine manufacturing/repair/assembly center in Lafayette than CVG is. DL could easily ship those parts made in Lafayette on the IND-CDG flight, and it would cut the transportation time/cost for GE. DL also has the corporate contracts in IND from the NWA focus city days, and could easily add other companies to the list who could put cargo in the belly. Just fyi, the data I am looking at showed the DL CDG-CVG also saw a drop in average LFs from 78% in 2015 to 69% in 2016 as well.

Not saying it would ever happen though.

The parts being shipped to France for CFM/Safran are manufactured in Evendale, OH, to which CVG is obviously closer. As to the flight's performance? The fact that DL has been running it more or less unchanged as a daily widebody the past few years, surviving the hub cuts, 2008 financial crisis, and Paris terror attacks strongly indicates that the flight is very likely a solid performer.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 2902
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:54 am

LambertMan wrote:
Some of the rationale used throughout this thread is both comical and bizarre from STL and IND supporters.


I just find it interesting that the same people argue in circles with the exact same points and arguements anytime a TATL thread starts. Trying to one up or bash another city on some message board isn't going to decide who gets or doesn't get a flight. All the bickering is a waste of time that clutters up the board and detracts from getting good info. We have all seen your arguments on here what seems like hundreds of times. They don't need repeated again.

If your city doesn't have a TATL flight yet, it is for a reason. As long as it doesn't, I don't know why one feels the need to act like your city is better than another city without one also.
 
WWads
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:18 pm

Re: BA's Next US Destination

Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:29 am

flyguy89 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
WWads wrote:

And why should they do that? The operation as-is generates a lot of profit. This isn't pre-bankruptcy DL. They aren't keeping CVG open just for kicks. To put it bluntly, IND doesn't have TATL service because no airline is willing to offer it at whatever the projected levels of profit are. DL is willing to operate CVG-CDG because it makes money. Both from corporate contracts, and the hundreds of tons of GE engine parts that are shipped to France every year.

DL serves a lot of destinations that would go unserved if CVG were more like IND or CMH. People in Cincy are generally satisfied with the status quo.


Do you have any information on how much revenue it generates, if you do please list it. I am genuinely interested

DL could run IND-CDG and still ship parts to France for GE, because IND is much closer to the engine manufacturing/repair/assembly center in Lafayette than CVG is. DL could easily ship those parts made in Lafayette on the IND-CDG flight, and it would cut the transportation time/cost for GE. DL also has the corporate contracts in IND from the NWA focus city days, and could easily add other companies to the list who could put cargo in the belly. Just fyi, the data I am looking at showed the DL CDG-CVG also saw a drop in average LFs from 78% in 2015 to 69% in 2016 as well.

Not saying it would ever happen though.

The parts being shipped to France for CFM/Safran are manufactured in Evendale, OH, to which CVG is obviously closer. As to the flight's performance? The fact that DL has been running it more or less unchanged as a daily widebody the past few years, surviving the hub cuts, 2008 financial crisis, and Paris terror attacks strongly indicates that the flight is very likely a solid performer.


Ding ding ding. Cincy kick Indy's butt when it comes to air service demand. Period. We have a hub/focus city because the companies here are willing to pay for one. Indy doesn't because the companies there aren't willing to pay/aren't significant enough to justify one.

Of course I don't have access to the actual numbers, but logic dictates that DL's current CVG operation is doing quite well. There hasn't been any cuts since 2015, and DL has actually upgauged on many routes, with rumors that a few previously cut routes might be coming back. DL is willing to operate focus cities where it makes sense (see BOS and RDU). CVG makes sense, IND does not. Period. End it there.

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