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AAvgeek744
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:36 am

ADrum23 wrote:
DLPMMM wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:

CLT and CVG already have TATL service due to being a AA and DL hub respectively. Personally, I think both airports should be dehubbed though, so if in the (highly unlikely) event that ever happened, BA could start.


Why would AA dehub CLT???

Lowest cost per enplanement, southeastern connecting hub AA was missing in their network of, and arguably their most profitable hub.

That statement lost you all credibility.


Calm down, I know AA is not going to dehub CLT (at least not anytime in the near future). It is their most profitable only because they control 90% of the traffic in the airport and there is a lack of competition. It has the lowest O&D of the hubs and is not extremely convenient to connect in. Plus, Miami isn't in the southeast?

If AA ever dehubbed or significantly scaled back CLT, they (CLT) would crash and burn economics wise. I don't think I'd want one airline controlling most of the traffic out of my local airport. I'd rather have competition and a more diverse set of airlines.


Given the small number of airlines left, most cities are going to be dominated by a single carrier, Re: MIA, do you think someone is going to fly several hours out of the way to make a domestic connection at MIA? It does what it does well - funnel huge amounts of pax from the U.S. to Latin America.
 
AAvgeek744
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:45 am

:I suggest a.netters petition BA to buy another 100 788/789 aircraft, and then in 2035 when the new LHR runway is open, BA fly to every city in the U.S. with a population over 100,000. :banghead:
 
chalupas54
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:52 am

I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that IND 'deserves' or will get a TATL before STL. I think many posters here are missing some critical details. STL is bound to post nearly 15 millions passengers this year. Currently, STL is averaging 600+ passengers per day to Europe. Also, if we look at the year round numbers, look no further than Sabre. STL's airport director has also said numerous times this year that LON bound traffic is growing at a 'rapid pace'. Also keep in mind this- multiple airport filings indicate that a TATL is coming to Lambert's C Concourse-home to American and the Admirals Club. Currently, C12 (correct me if I'm wrong) is ready to host a 787, and a bit further down at C28, there is a universal jetbrige that can fit all below an A380. It also can be noted that STL's customs facility is on the rather large side, and has three customs access gates. A major selling point for these TATL's is club access. IND does not have a lounge besides a Sky Club. STL has an Admirals Club, and Wingtips lounge is currently under construction in T2, next to the international gates.

Finally, this is one tid bit of information no one has posted on here. STL has a British company pulling for service. Bull Moose and Lord Paul of Marylebone have been huge promoters of STL-LHR air service. In fact, last October, Lord Paul joined a large STL delegation to meet with BA officials in London. Bull Moose is not the only company pulling for the service. The exploding startup scene in STL is home to many foreign companies, many from Europe. Along with many of STL's Fortune 500s, they have been very outspoken supporters of any possible service. The business support for the route in STL is much larger than that in IND. Sorry, that's a fact.

I think the last major player in this is that STL has filled it's domestic network. STL has nonstop service to every major metro area in the country (except Indianapolis, ironic, however that's more due to distance than demand). IND has not. STL also seeing yet another massive expansion from WN, with next year STL probably going to see 120+ daily departures on Southwest.. IND still has many domestic holes that have not been filled. Landing LHR service is the top priority for St. Louis Lambert.

It should also be noted that business travel is not the only perk of an STL route. Many UK touring companies start/end tours in St. Louis. STL has a tourist draw to it. Even with recent crime rates and the Ferguson unrest, the STL tourism industry is growing. STL has a significantly higher tourist draw than Indianapolis. That is also a fact. Also, a regions crime rates has no effect on TATL service. Examples? Chicago, Baltimore, New Orleans, and Detroit.

Sorry, I just see this as a non-issue. IND will get CDG probably on DL. STL will get LHR on BA.
Last edited by chalupas54 on Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Indy
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:04 am

chalupas54 wrote:
Sorry, I just see this as a non-issue. IND will get CDG probably on DL. STL will get LHR on BA.


Actually, IND will probably (thankfully) get AMS on DL. The two destinations IND is working on right now is LHR and AMS. Earlier it was FRA but I never saw that as a realistic destination. LH simply doesn't serve markets the size of IND in the USA.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
chalupas54
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:09 am

Indy wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:
Sorry, I just see this as a non-issue. IND will get CDG probably on DL. STL will get LHR on BA.


Actually, IND will probably (thankfully) get AMS on DL. The two destinations IND is working on right now is LHR and AMS. Earlier it was FRA but I never saw that as a realistic destination. LH simply doesn't serve markets the size of IND in the USA.


I think AMS would serve IND even more than LHR. With many pharmaceutical companies in the Benelux, I see that fitting better. Especially with the huge DL presence already in the greater Indinapolis area.
 
globalcabotage
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:17 am

AAvgeek744 wrote:
:I suggest a.netters petition BA to buy another 100 788/789 aircraft, and then in 2035 when the new LHR runway is open, BA fly to every city in the U.S. with a population over 100,000. :banghead:


We're heading that way. Any US airport with over 2M passengers feels "entitled" to an LHR flight.
 
DeltaRules
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:22 am

There have been two reports in the last few years in the local media that Columbus was in talks for TATL service, with London specifically mentioned on the ABC affiliate. I can't remember if it was in January of 2015 or 2016 the story hit. Many 'round these parts thought an AA 757 might've been a better fit to start.

Midwestindy wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
My bet is Columbus, OH.

It looks like the typical new BA destination; a bit millennial, college-city with a bit of everything.



Hmmm, who knew ATL, BWI, FLL, MSY, OAK, LAS, LAX, IAH, PHL, ORD, DFW, SAN, SJC, PDX, and almost all the rest of their destinations in the US were college towns? Sure, they have colleges within them if that's what you mean, but really only AUS fits into that description you just made. AUS has business travel, that CMH simply does not which is a big factor for BA.


Doing a very cursory Wikipedia cliff notes search, Austin has lots and lots of technology jobs and is growing in the biotech field.

Columbus has insurance, banking/finance (the skyline is a collection of insurance and bank company logos), education/research, and fashion.

Both have large universities (UT, OSU).
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flyPIT
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:34 am

chalupas54 wrote:
Currently, STL is averaging 600+ passengers per day to Europe.

Do you have a source for this? That is 3 times the amount as in 2011.
FLYi
 
ADrum23
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:00 am

CIDFlyer wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
Calm down, I know AA is not going to dehub CLT (at least not anytime in the near future). It is their most profitable only because they control 90% of the traffic in the airport and there is a lack of competition. It has the lowest O&D of the hubs and is not extremely convenient to connect in. Plus, Miami isn't in the southeast?
ADrum23 wrote:
f AA ever dehubbed or significantly scaled back CLT, they (CLT) would crash and burn economics wise. I don't think I'd want one airline controlling most of the traffic out of my local airport. I'd rather have competition and a more diverse set of airlines.
ADrum23 wrote:
Only other city that deserves BA service to LHR after BNA is IND.

STL would be better off with DL to AMS IMO.

SAT is too close to Austin.

CMH is smack in the middle between CLE and CVG and really is not much of a draw.

CLT and CVG already have TATL service due to being a AA and DL hub respectively. Personally, I think both airports should be dehubbed though, so if in the (highly unlikely) event that ever happened, BA could start service there.



why do you feel AA should dehub CLT? So DL could control the entire southeast? Ive personally found CLT to be easy to connect through, in fact I know people who will fly thru there to avoid ATL. Miami might be physically in the southeast but geographically its poor to be the connecting hub CLT functions as. CLT has been a hub for over 35 years its not going anywhere. Not to mention its one of the fastest growing metros in the US and on track to become the next ATL. As population grows so will O & D. If AA ever would de-hub they would be very foolish to do so.


Ok, I will admit having an AA hub in CLT is a nice bulwark against DL dominating the Southeast (outside of Florida). I was just suggesting because I think it is bad for an airport to be controlled 90% by one airline. There is not a lot of competition and if something happened where AA had to scale back or close, it would not be good for the airport.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:10 am

STL I can understand, IND I can kinda see, but in addition to the aforementioned cities, why is everyone so adamant about CMH getting BA service?

Why not CLE (has had London service before) or PDX (AS feed and only DL summer service to LHR) or any other city in the US with a larger CSA than Columbus, Ohio?
When wasn't America great?


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acentauri
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:41 am

phluser wrote:
How come AA flies RDU-LHR and not BA? With GlaxoSmithKline , a British company being the top supporter, wouldn't it make sense that BA cover the route? AA and BA coordinate schedules to LHR and share revenue, so RDU might be viewed as covered, but I think the operating carrier makes a difference for pax. AA runs BWI-LHR and CLT-LHR while BA does not. Could there be likelihood of BA ceasing LHR-PHL and LHR-PHX and letting AA picking up those flights? How do AA and BA decide on such coverage to these secondary cities?

Huh ?? PHL is a Premier BA UK-US route and OW Hub. BA is not going to relinquish it to AA, regardless of the JV. Further, if you assume that BA should fly to RDU because of GlaxoSmithKline's presence, then you should also assume they should fly to PHL - their U.S. Headquarters.
 
fry530
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:38 am

I would think that BA would try and compete with DL/VS at DTW and MSP before trying CMH or STL. There's much more traffic to those places, and while they'd be going head to head with DL, they could at least take some of the share. That is if they want to be competitive. CLT is a maybe, if they were to take a frequency from AA. At least, I think they used to serve CLT from LGW IIRC.
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DeltaRules
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:44 am

TWA772LR wrote:
STL I can understand, IND I can kinda see, but in addition to the aforementioned cities, why is everyone so adamant about CMH getting BA service?

Why not CLE (has had London service before) or PDX (AS feed and only DL summer service to LHR) or any other city in the US with a larger CSA than Columbus, Ohio?


CLE wouldn't have had the LGW or CDG service without the CO hub, PDX already has LHR on DL, CMH is an untapped market with local media-reported efforts for London service at least once?
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SCQ83
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:05 am

DeltaRules wrote:
Doing a very cursory Wikipedia cliff notes search, Austin has lots and lots of technology jobs and is growing in the biotech field.

Columbus has insurance, banking/finance (the skyline is a collection of insurance and bank company logos), education/research, and fashion.

Both have large universities (UT, OSU).


It is also the state capital which that means a number of well-paid government jobs more resilient to future economic downturns. Columbus is also Ohio's fastest growing city: https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/ne ... oming.html

It also more dynamic than other medium metro areas in Ohio or the Midwest http://www.smartcitiesdive.com/ex/susta ... star/8153/

It certainly seems the kind of "millennial" city that BA or Norwegian like. Definitely more so than STL, IND or CLE.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:30 am

acentauri wrote:
PHL is a Premier BA UK-US route and OW Hub. BA is not going to relinquish it to AA, regardless of the JV.

You don't know that for fact.

Unless they have a contractual or CBA obligation to serve PHL with their own metal, then there's nothing preventing them from having AA op the route... in fact, it'd be one of the most logical/efficient routes for them to do so, should they ever feel a eqp crunch or other need, as AA wouldn't have to turn metal in LHR.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
acentauri
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:12 am

LAX772LR wrote:
acentauri wrote:
PHL is a Premier BA UK-US route and OW Hub. BA is not going to relinquish it to AA, regardless of the JV.

You don't know that for fact.

Unless they have a contractual or CBA obligation to serve PHL with their own metal, then there's nothing preventing them from having AA op the route... in fact, it'd be one of the most logical/efficient routes for them to do so, should they ever feel a eqp crunch or other need, as AA wouldn't have to turn metal in LHR.

AND you don't know me - for a fact. That is exactly what they have and have had for 23 years. BA already solved their current "equipment crunch", by substituting a high J 747-400 and an additional AA frequency for 2 x 777-200s. Unless BA merges with AA, they will continue to serve PHL directly. "Premier" definition " : "Earliest".
 
chalupas54
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:25 am

flyPIT wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:
Currently, STL is averaging 600+ passengers per day to Europe.

Do you have a source for this? That is 3 times the amount as in 2011.


Yes. There are multiple St. Louis area news sources that have reported this. I'll go search for one.
 
chalupas54
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:34 am

SCQ83 wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
Doing a very cursory Wikipedia cliff notes search, Austin has lots and lots of technology jobs and is growing in the biotech field.

Columbus has insurance, banking/finance (the skyline is a collection of insurance and bank company logos), education/research, and fashion.

Both have large universities (UT, OSU).


It is also the state capital which that means a number of well-paid government jobs more resilient to future economic downturns. Columbus is also Ohio's fastest growing city: https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/ne ... oming.html

It also more dynamic than other medium metro areas in Ohio or the Midwest http://www.smartcitiesdive.com/ex/susta ... star/8153/

It certainly seems the kind of "millennial" city that BA or Norwegian like. Definitely more so than STL, IND or CLE.


As much as I love the Columbus area, CMH is really a non-contender for this. Just because a city is millenial does not at all mean a city can sell premium seats on 787. If anything, it means the contrary. Also, the Columbus metro area is far smaller than STL, and a bit smaller than IND. Not to forget that STL and IND have traffic numbers that completely eclipse CMH. I think another aspect to this is the resurgence of Cleveland. If BA is coming to Ohio, they'll pick CLE. Cleveland has a global economy in healthcare and in petroleum. BP has a major operation in downtown Cleveland. Columbus has a very national economy. As I said for IND, CMH has a ton of domestic holes. CMH does not even have a flight to SFO. There is a heavily subsidized seasonal flight on WN to OAK. If I was in charge of route development at CMH, landing TATL service would be last on my list. Either way, as clearly pointed out by the posters on this forum, if BA is to expand in North America again, it is going to be STL or IND, not CMH or CLE.
 
SCQ83
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:54 am

chalupas54 wrote:
As much as I love the Columbus area, CMH is really a non-contender for this. Just because a city is millenial does not at all mean a city can sell premium seats on 787. If anything, it means the contrary. Also, the Columbus metro area is far smaller than STL, and a bit smaller than IND. Not to forget that STL and IND have traffic numbers that completely eclipse CMH. I think another aspect to this is the resurgence of Cleveland. If BA is coming to Ohio, they'll pick CLE. Cleveland has a global economy in healthcare and in petroleum. BP has a major operation in downtown Cleveland. Columbus has a very national economy. As I said for IND, CMH has a ton of domestic holes. CMH does not even have a flight to SFO. There is a heavily subsidized seasonal flight on WN to OAK. If I was in charge of route development at CMH, landing TATL service would be last on my list. Either way, as clearly pointed out by the posters on this forum, if BA is to expand in North America again, it is going to be STL or IND, not CMH or CLE.


Which Cleveland resurgence?

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/ne ... oming.html

Here are the 25-year projections for Ohio's major cities:

Columbus will grow from 2.02 million residents in 2015 to 2.65 million in 2040. That 30.8 percent growth rate is good enough for 30th out of 933 metropolitan areas tracked.

Cincinnati will grow from 2.16 million residents in 2015 to 2.33 million in 2040, a growth rate of 8 percent.

Cleveland will shrink from 2.06 million residents in 2015 to 1.89 million in 2040. That drop of 8.4 percent is the worst projected loss among the country's major metros.


The trend is clear. British Airways and Norwegian are incresingly targeting "millenial" and trendy economies (read that in a broad sense, but I think it is clear what I mean). Anything from New Orleans to Austin or Denver. Old, scurfy Fortune 500 HQ cities are out of the way! And I can't think of a worse example than BP. If CLE hasn't been able to sustain a LHR flight with oil at +$100, how is it going to be able to sustain it in the future with the help of BP?
 
wenders825
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:35 am

SCQ83 wrote:
The trend is clear. British Airways and Norwegian are incresingly targeting "millenial" and trendy economies (read that in a broad sense, but I think it is clear what I mean). Anything from New Orleans to Austin or Denver. Old, scurfy Fortune 500 HQ cities are out of the way! And I can't think of a worse example than BP. If CLE hasn't been able to sustain a LHR flight with oil at +$100, how is it going to be able to sustain it in the future with the help of BP?


not that I disagree with you about CLE not getting BA, but am I wrong to think that BP is a very large customer for BA? surely they are a big player on their IAH, YYC, MSY routes, among others
 
MLIAA
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:35 am

globalcabotage wrote:
AAvgeek744 wrote:
:I suggest a.netters petition BA to buy another 100 788/789 aircraft, and then in 2035 when the new LHR runway is open, BA fly to every city in the U.S. with a population over 100,000. :banghead:


We're heading that way. Any US airport with over 2M passengers feels "entitled" to an LHR flight.


We are seeing cities like PVD and SWF getting TATL service. If SWF (population 28,000) can go across the pond, I would argue that IND, STL, CMH... should feel quite entitled for TATL service. BA no doubt wants to grab these markets before Norwegion, WOW, and the likes come in and take over. And this strategy has worked quite well where they have done it, AUS started as a 788 and now alternates from 772/789.

You make it sound like it's a horrible thing that a worldwide carrier not named AA/UA/DL is bringing life to these mid-sized cities.
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LupineChemist
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:04 am

I don't see how it's not IND before BNA, honestly. It's where Rolls Royce USA is based, Cummins has a factory in Coventry, Eli Lilly is a ton of corporate traffic all over the place, GE could even reasonably be in the area from Cincinnati. Not to mention 3 universities in the immediate area (and even from as far as South Bend if not flying out of SBN, DTW, IND, and ORD are all pretty close to equally convenient).
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:02 am

LupineChemist wrote:
I don't see how it's not IND before BNA, honestly. It's where Rolls Royce USA is based, Cummins has a factory in Coventry, Eli Lilly is a ton of corporate traffic all over the place, GE could even reasonably be in the area from Cincinnati. Not to mention 3 universities in the immediate area (and even from as far as South Bend if not flying out of SBN, DTW, IND, and ORD are all pretty close to equally convenient).


I can understand BNA/STL before IND but CMH, I mean come on.... CMH doesn't even have flights to SAN/SFO/SLC/SEA/MCI, that says a lot about the business community within CMH.
I'm not going to go in depth, but here are some additional points to what you have mentioned

Cummins has a large tech center in Darlington, UK as well. And Cummins also has 20 factories and 9000 (soon to be 11,000) employees in India, where a significant amount of their R&D is done. Furthermore, Cummins sells in approximately 190 countries and territories.

Eli Lilly has 22,000 employees based outside the US.

You can also throw in Roche Diagnostics, Dow Agrosciences, Infosys, Salesforce, Ingram Micro, Allison Transmission, and Genesys as large companies with biz travel to europe from Indy...

IND has the cargo aspect as well, considering FedEx and CargoLux run flights to Luxembourg, London, and Paris throughout the week mostly shipping the boatloads of cargo from Roche, Eli Lilly, and Dow Agro to Europe, some of which could be moved to a TATL flight. CMH could never have that benefit considering the cargo goes through LCK.

Also, where have all these CMH people been this whole time, lol?
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LAX772LR
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:47 am

acentauri wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
acentauri wrote:
BA is not going to relinquish it to AA, regardless of the JV.

You don't know that for fact.
AND you don't know me - for a fact.

Nor would I need to, in order to point out your use of opinion as if it were fact. :razz:



wenders825 wrote:
but am I wrong to think that BP is a very large customer for BA? surely they are a big player on their IAH, YYC, MSY routes, among others

Reply#4 on this post will answer your question:
viewtopic.php?t=1346513#p19156413
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
DeltaRules
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:05 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
I can understand BNA/STL before IND but CMH, I mean come on.... CMH doesn't even have flights to SAN/SFO/SLC/SEA/MCI, that says a lot about the business community within CMH.

IND has the cargo aspect as well, considering FedEx and CargoLux run flights to Luxembourg, London, and Paris throughout the week mostly shipping the boatloads of cargo from Roche, Eli Lilly, and Dow Agro to Europe, some of which could be moved to a TATL flight. CMH could never have that benefit considering the cargo goes through LCK.

Also, where have all these CMH people been this whole time, lol?


I get those are big destinations, but what does that have to do with TATL service? PIT doesn't have SEA nonstops, either, and both are expected to be in AS' big expansion in the next year or so. CMH-SLC happened before the economy went in the tank and is a DL hub similarly served by MSP, which probably hurts its chances of coming back. Not sure how MCI relates to the others you listed, but three airlines have operated it and two (SX, YX) don't exist anymore.

Why couldn't the cargo be moved over? The difference between CMH and IND and the boatloads of export cargo being loaded up is Columbus' cargo goes from another airport. Assuming products have to be driven to LCK, they could be driven to CMH as well. BA was trucking freight from Columbus to IAD and JFK to load onto BA flights.
Last edited by DeltaRules on Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AAvgeek744
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:17 pm

MLIAA wrote:
globalcabotage wrote:
AAvgeek744 wrote:
:I suggest a.netters petition BA to buy another 100 788/789 aircraft, and then in 2035 when the new LHR runway is open, BA fly to every city in the U.S. with a population over 100,000. :banghead:


We're heading that way. Any US airport with over 2M passengers feels "entitled" to an LHR flight.


We are seeing cities like PVD and SWF getting TATL service. If SWF (population 28,000) can go across the pond, I would argue that IND, STL, CMH... should feel quite entitled for TATL service. BA no doubt wants to grab these markets before Norwegion, WOW, and the likes come in and take over. And this strategy has worked quite well where they have done it, AUS started as a 788 and now alternates from 772/789.

You make it sound like it's a horrible thing that a worldwide carrier not named AA/UA/DL is bringing life to these mid-sized cities.


Since in another thread someone told me I didn't understand sarcasm, this one's for you. I could not decide on the proper emoji, but my comment is a joke, sarcastic joke. There are a number of non-US carriers I have quite a liking for, so you can relax.
 
AAvgeek744
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:22 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
acentauri wrote:
PHL is a Premier BA UK-US route and OW Hub. BA is not going to relinquish it to AA, regardless of the JV.

You don't know that for fact.

Unless they have a contractual or CBA obligation to serve PHL with their own metal, then there's nothing preventing them from having AA op the route... in fact, it'd be one of the most logical/efficient routes for them to do so, should they ever feel a eqp crunch or other need, as AA wouldn't have to turn metal in LHR.


Am I correct, the JV is metal neutral? It doesn't matter which airline flies a route. It explains why BOS-LHR is 4x daily on BA, while AA pulled out in favor of BA.
 
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flymco753
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:37 pm

I'm actually going to agree with klm617 on the addition of BA at DTW, let me support some factual information that you could benefit from.

First of all, if DTW can give BA good incentives, and extra funds to secure this flight, there's no reason that BA wouldn't do it, because I'm pretty sure the incentives offered by IND, CMH, CLE, STL and what have you aren't as good, and I invite y'all to discuss it with me.

It would be a good time for BA to do LON from DTW because the route's monopolized, DY has no plans or effect on the market ATM, and DL continues to pull capacity and frequency, and controls the market which is being killed, it's simple airline economics, you learn these things in a college Aviation Business Management class.

The 788 is the perfect sized aircraft to compete with the DL 76W.

Lastly, I guarantee DL doesn't have a contract with all of the major auto makers, and I can almost bet BA could secure contracts to put cargo and people on their planes, so I wouldn't necessarily rule it out because it is a possibility by 2020.
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commavia
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:03 pm

I don't know about "next," but PIT and STL both strike me as particularly obvious BA 787 markets from LHR. Both are large markets in their own right, and also markets with a strong local sales/schedules presence from BA's JV partner AA, and both lack nonstops to LON (or Europe at all, in STL's case). Beyond those two, I also think BA could make a 787 work to PDX.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:36 pm

flymco753 wrote:

First of all, if DTW can give BA good incentives, and extra funds to secure this flight, there's no reason that BA wouldn't do it, because I'm pretty sure the incentives offered by IND, CMH, CLE, STL and what have you aren't as good, and I invite y'all to discuss it with me.


You have absolutely no facts to back that up do you? And by the statement you just made I believe you have no idea how high the incentives are at IND and STL.
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klm617
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:48 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
klm617 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
So again, here's the question:
Why would BA want to fight DL over DTW, when it could have a smaller market all to itself... which it's shown a clear and consistent preference for.


Because this market is undeserved

Unsubstantiated assumption #1




klm617 wrote:
and the higher than average fares compared to ORD and YYZ

And your corroboration for that is ___________?




klm617 wrote:
not to mention the BA customer service experience is way better than Delta

Image

opinion masquerading as fact... penalty 10yards.




klm617 wrote:
and in time would win customers over from Delta

So now you're a fortune teller? Awesome :roll:


I've gotta hand it to you, I truly don't know if you're just trolling, or if you're really as dense/tunnel-visioned as you portray... but in either case, do recognize that even if all of the above were accurate (which it isn't), then it still wouldn't explain why BA has spent the last decade going into smaller markets when there's nothing stopping it from returning to DTW other than lack of desire.

There's really no way around that.


Unless you work for BA and are directly involved in the decision process you point of view is just as valid as the next person who posts on this thread with an idea. So please you are not any more in the know than anyone else we all have our ideas of where BA might try next each one of these ideas are all credible unless you are suggesting places like DLH or PIA. It is very disrespectful to talk down to other a.netters just because you can't see or don't agree with another s point of view. So while I respect your comment please respect the comments of me and others even if you don't agree with them. This forum was not intended to be a battles of whits but a place where people can share ideas and discuss them in an adult matter so please put your attitude away and by all means share your knowledge and ideas so we can all learn from each other.
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flymco753
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:00 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
You have absolutely no facts to back that up do you? And by the statement you just made I believe you have no idea how high the incentives are at IND and STL.
My major is in Aviation Business Management, with a concentration in Aircraft Dispatch so I have a really good idea on how this works, specifically Network Planning and Air Service Development.

DTW incentives: http://www.wcaa.us/Portals/WCAACorp/WCA ... iption.pdf
DTW contd...: http://www.wcaa.us/Portals/WCAACorp/WCA ... iption.pdf

IND's specific incentive towards BA: https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/f ... 427731001/

STL incentives: http://flystlbusiness.com/RouteDevelopment
STL contd...: http://flystlbusiness.com/RouteDevelopm ... ogram.aspx

I didn't say DTW would get BA before IND or STL, but I don't see why they can't resume DTW service by 2020, it's entirely possible with the incentives given and the amount of business between the two regions.
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stl07
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:10 pm

chalupas54 wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:
Currently, STL is averaging 600+ passengers per day to Europe.

Do you have a source for this? That is 3 times the amount as in 2011.


Yes. There are multiple St. Louis area news sources that have reported this. I'll go search for one.

This one published yesterday claims 300 average so 600 may be summer
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2017/08/07/ ... n-flights/
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Midwestindy
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:12 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
You have absolutely no facts to back that up do you? And by the statement you just made I believe you have no idea how high the incentives are at IND and STL.
My major is in Aviation Business Management, with a concentration in Aircraft Dispatch so I have a really good idea on how this works, specifically Network Planning and Air Service Development.

DTW incentives: http://www.wcaa.us/Portals/WCAACorp/WCA ... iption.pdf
DTW contd...: http://www.wcaa.us/Portals/WCAACorp/WCA ... iption.pdf

IND's specific incentive towards BA: https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/f ... 427731001/

STL incentives: http://flystlbusiness.com/RouteDevelopment
STL contd...: http://flystlbusiness.com/RouteDevelopm ... ogram.aspx

I didn't say DTW would get BA before IND or STL, but I don't see why they can't resume DTW service by 2020, it's entirely possible with the incentives given and the amount of business between the two regions.


Well then if this is what you think the totality of the incentives are, you are mistaken. You clearly didn't look hard because the Indiana State Budget is allocating 5- 10 million dollars in incentives to lure an int'l flight, in addition to the 1 million in incentives that would be given if it was run on a 787, and in addition to any private funds that could be given to lure a route.

I believe STL has a similar system as well...

If you are going to do research at least be thorough...
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Midwestindy
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:30 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
I can understand BNA/STL before IND but CMH, I mean come on.... CMH doesn't even have flights to SAN/SFO/SLC/SEA/MCI, that says a lot about the business community within CMH.

IND has the cargo aspect as well, considering FedEx and CargoLux run flights to Luxembourg, London, and Paris throughout the week mostly shipping the boatloads of cargo from Roche, Eli Lilly, and Dow Agro to Europe, some of which could be moved to a TATL flight. CMH could never have that benefit considering the cargo goes through LCK.

Also, where have all these CMH people been this whole time, lol?


I get those are big destinations, but what does that have to do with TATL service? PIT doesn't have SEA nonstops, either, and both are expected to be in AS' big expansion in the next year or so. CMH-SLC happened before the economy went in the tank and is a DL hub similarly served by MSP, which probably hurts its chances of coming back. Not sure how MCI relates to the others you listed, but three airlines have operated it and two (SX, YX) don't exist anymore.

Why couldn't the cargo be moved over? The difference between CMH and IND and the boatloads of export cargo being loaded up is Columbus' cargo goes from another airport. Assuming products have to be driven to LCK, they could be driven to CMH as well. BA was trucking freight from Columbus to IAD and JFK to load onto BA flights.


It means CMH should focus on getting obvious domestic destinations, before it goes after a TATL flight. I really see CMH being behind CLE/IND/STL, because its only advantage is it being millennial.
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Indy
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:32 pm

Just a hunch but I think we can pull IND's name from the BA discussion. I don't think IND-LHR is going to happen. Not this year. Not next year or anytime soon. I'd watch for DL to AMS. Maybe another LCC to follow a year or two later to somewhere in Europe.
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:01 pm

stl07 wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
Do you have a source for this? That is 3 times the amount as in 2011.


Yes. There are multiple St. Louis area news sources that have reported this. I'll go search for one.

This one published yesterday claims 300 average so 600 may be summer
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2017/08/07/ ... n-flights/


300 "to Europe" as the article states sounds more like it. The 600+ figure is both ways.
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:12 pm

Indy wrote:
Just a hunch but I think we can pull IND's name from the BA discussion. I don't think IND-LHR is going to happen. Not this year. Not next year or anytime soon. I'd watch for DL to AMS. Maybe another LCC to follow a year or two later to somewhere in Europe.


Indy, is this based on something you've heard or just your gut feel?
 
DeltaRules
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:31 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
I can understand BNA/STL before IND but CMH, I mean come on.... CMH doesn't even have flights to SAN/SFO/SLC/SEA/MCI, that says a lot about the business community within CMH.

IND has the cargo aspect as well, considering FedEx and CargoLux run flights to Luxembourg, London, and Paris throughout the week mostly shipping the boatloads of cargo from Roche, Eli Lilly, and Dow Agro to Europe, some of which could be moved to a TATL flight. CMH could never have that benefit considering the cargo goes through LCK.

Also, where have all these CMH people been this whole time, lol?


I get those are big destinations, but what does that have to do with TATL service? PIT doesn't have SEA nonstops, either, and both are expected to be in AS' big expansion in the next year or so. CMH-SLC happened before the economy went in the tank and is a DL hub similarly served by MSP, which probably hurts its chances of coming back. Not sure how MCI relates to the others you listed, but three airlines have operated it and two (SX, YX) don't exist anymore.

Why couldn't the cargo be moved over? The difference between CMH and IND and the boatloads of export cargo being loaded up is Columbus' cargo goes from another airport. Assuming products have to be driven to LCK, they could be driven to CMH as well. BA was trucking freight from Columbus to IAD and JFK to load onto BA flights.


It means CMH should focus on getting obvious domestic destinations, before it goes after a TATL flight. I really see CMH being behind CLE/IND/STL, because its only advantage is it being millennial.


SAN, SEA, and SFO have been said to be on the list, and the airline most likely to do SAN (WN) wants CMH to be one of their "hometown airlines" (though, ironically, them starting OAK has probably shot SFO service in the foot). I've been figuring for a while SEA is a three-horse race between DL, AS, and F9, whichever wants to start it first. A friend who works for DL at CMH thinks they'll do it within two years.

PVD has more flights across the Atlantic than the Mississippi. Every market is different.
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:41 pm

DeltaRules wrote:

It means CMH should focus on getting obvious domestic destinations, before it goes after a TATL flight. I really see CMH being behind CLE/IND/STL, because its only advantage is it being millennial.


SAN, SEA, and SFO have been said to be on the list, and the airline most likely to do SAN (WN) wants CMH to be one of their "hometown airlines" (though, ironically, them starting OAK has probably shot SFO service in the foot). I've been figuring for a while SEA is a three-horse race between DL, AS, and F9, whichever wants to start it first. A friend who works for DL at CMH thinks they'll do it within two years.

PVD has more flights across the Atlantic than the Mississippi. Every market is different.[/quote]

PVD can be served with a 737/737max, CMH can not. CMH has very few advantages over IND/STL/CLE.
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Indy
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:41 pm

indygs wrote:
Indy wrote:
Just a hunch but I think we can pull IND's name from the BA discussion. I don't think IND-LHR is going to happen. Not this year. Not next year or anytime soon. I'd watch for DL to AMS. Maybe another LCC to follow a year or two later to somewhere in Europe.


Indy, is this based on something you've heard or just your gut feel?


Gut feel about LHR. Heard about AMS.
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:09 pm

Indy wrote:
indygs wrote:
Indy wrote:
Just a hunch but I think we can pull IND's name from the BA discussion. I don't think IND-LHR is going to happen. Not this year. Not next year or anytime soon. I'd watch for DL to AMS. Maybe another LCC to follow a year or two later to somewhere in Europe.


Indy, is this based on something you've heard or just your gut feel?


Gut feel about LHR. Heard about AMS.


Interesting. Well, my own hunch is that DL on AMS would make the most sense of any European route given the decent base of DL-flyers in IND and the amount of service DL has maintained over time. I fly via AMS often and see many fellow flyers on IND-DTW make the connection to AMS and points thereafter. They also have the equipment in the form of a 753 that could make the trip and provide lie-flat seats across the water. And with a SkyClub, there's not much need for more infrastructure at the airport itself. Like I said before, I actually think the first-mover on this will win big time with some of the corporate accounts in the Central Indiana area.
 
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:38 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:

It means CMH should focus on getting obvious domestic destinations, before it goes after a TATL flight. I really see CMH being behind CLE/IND/STL, because its only advantage is it being millennial.


SAN, SEA, and SFO have been said to be on the list, and the airline most likely to do SAN (WN) wants CMH to be one of their "hometown airlines" (though, ironically, them starting OAK has probably shot SFO service in the foot). I've been figuring for a while SEA is a three-horse race between DL, AS, and F9, whichever wants to start it first. A friend who works for DL at CMH thinks they'll do it within two years.

PVD has more flights across the Atlantic than the Mississippi. Every market is different.


PVD can be served with a 737/737max, CMH can not. CMH has very few advantages over IND/STL/CLE.[/quote]

CMH can be reached with a 757 about the same size as the 737 but I agree PIT, CLE and STL will come first. and CMH probably has the same priority as IND it all depends who comes up with the money to land one of these flights.
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Midwestindy
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:44 pm

klm617 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:

It means CMH should focus on getting obvious domestic destinations, before it goes after a TATL flight. I really see CMH being behind CLE/IND/STL, because its only advantage is it being millennial.


SAN, SEA, and SFO have been said to be on the list, and the airline most likely to do SAN (WN) wants CMH to be one of their "hometown airlines" (though, ironically, them starting OAK has probably shot SFO service in the foot). I've been figuring for a while SEA is a three-horse race between DL, AS, and F9, whichever wants to start it first. A friend who works for DL at CMH thinks they'll do it within two years.

PVD has more flights across the Atlantic than the Mississippi. Every market is different.


PVD can be served with a 737/737max, CMH can not. CMH has very few advantages over IND/STL/CLE.


CMH can be reached with a 757 about the same size as the 737 but I agree PIT, CLE and STL will come first. and CMH probably has the same priority as IND it all depends who comes up with the money to land one of these flights.[/quote]

First IND has more money lined up then any of those cities, second what is your reasoning for which cities come first?
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flyPIT
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:25 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
First IND has more money lined up then any of those cities [PIT, CLE, and STL].....


It does? So tell us, how much money does PIT have lined up?
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:27 pm

These type of threads seem more relaxed now that BNA is taken care of.
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Midwestindy
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:28 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
First IND has more money lined up then any of those cities [PIT, CLE, and STL].....


It does? So tell us, how much money does PIT have lined up?


PIT/Pittsburgh hasn't released any numbers so until then, IND has the most.
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flyPIT
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:34 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
First IND has more money lined up then any of those cities [PIT, CLE, and STL].....


It does? So tell us, how much money does PIT have lined up?


PIT/Pittsburgh hasn't released any numbers so until then, IND has the most.


You are correct they have not released numbers but why would one take that to mean IND has the most? Let me clue you in:

"The board in April 2016 voted unanimously to allow Cassotis to execute such agreements, up to any amount, without a board vote. She used that authority in June for OneJet, followed by November agreements in which she granted $800,000 to WOW Air for service to Iceland and $500,000 to Condor for service to Germany.

Cassotis said she grants incentives only to airlines adding nonstop flights to places the airport doesn't already serve. That's why Spirit Airlines, which began flying from Pittsburgh to Myrtle Beach and Dallas-Ft. Worth on Thursday, didn't get one, she said.
"
http://triblive.com/local/allegheny/12309717-74/looking-to-grow-its-airport-pittsburgh-invests-3m-in-startup-onejet

Now that does not mean they will write blank checks to anyone, nor should they as the PIT market is as good as the others mentioned but they most certainly are as competitive as anyone else when it comes to incentives.
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chalupas54
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:12 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:
As much as I love the Columbus area, CMH is really a non-contender for this. Just because a city is millenial does not at all mean a city can sell premium seats on 787. If anything, it means the contrary. Also, the Columbus metro area is far smaller than STL, and a bit smaller than IND. Not to forget that STL and IND have traffic numbers that completely eclipse CMH. I think another aspect to this is the resurgence of Cleveland. If BA is coming to Ohio, they'll pick CLE. Cleveland has a global economy in healthcare and in petroleum. BP has a major operation in downtown Cleveland. Columbus has a very national economy. As I said for IND, CMH has a ton of domestic holes. CMH does not even have a flight to SFO. There is a heavily subsidized seasonal flight on WN to OAK. If I was in charge of route development at CMH, landing TATL service would be last on my list. Either way, as clearly pointed out by the posters on this forum, if BA is to expand in North America again, it is going to be STL or IND, not CMH or CLE.


Which Cleveland resurgence?

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/ne ... oming.html

Here are the 25-year projections for Ohio's major cities:

Columbus will grow from 2.02 million residents in 2015 to 2.65 million in 2040. That 30.8 percent growth rate is good enough for 30th out of 933 metropolitan areas tracked.

Cincinnati will grow from 2.16 million residents in 2015 to 2.33 million in 2040, a growth rate of 8 percent.

Cleveland will shrink from 2.06 million residents in 2015 to 1.89 million in 2040. That drop of 8.4 percent is the worst projected loss among the country's major metros.


The trend is clear. British Airways and Norwegian are incresingly targeting "millenial" and trendy economies (read that in a broad sense, but I think it is clear what I mean). Anything from New Orleans to Austin or Denver. Old, scurfy Fortune 500 HQ cities are out of the way! And I can't think of a worse example than BP. If CLE hasn't been able to sustain a LHR flight with oil at +$100, how is it going to be able to sustain it in the future with the help of BP?


The easy answer to Cleveland: Domestic Holes. CLE, much like STL and PIT, was destroyed by dehubbing. Currently, STL and CLE have bounced back. STL much more than anyone else. CLE is focused on restoring its domestic network before focusing elsewhere.

Look, I love Columbus. It's an amazing city. However, if you're pushing this 'millennial' argument, how come STL was just named the best city for millennials in the country? Indianapolis was also very high on the list. Columbus was not in the top 20. Also, in terms of colleges, STL and IND have several major universities based in them. WUSTL (ranked higher than OSU in virtually all sectors), SLU, Butler, IUPUI, etc. EIther way, the Columbus metro area does not support the business traffic of CMH-LHR. I can assure you that the premium cabin would be empty. Also, CMH is in the range of a 757. If DL has not launched CMH-CDG, then we clearly have a problem. Also, New Orleans is NOT a "trendy, hip, millennial" city. Have you ever been? It's old, stagnant economy, high crime, rampant poverty. It has a huge tourist draw, however.

Columbus is not Austin. Austin is a booming tech city with huge corporate presences. Being a state capital does have influence, however, IND is a state capitol as well. STL is the primary airport for both Jefferson City, MO and Springfield, IL. Double whammy. Not to mention, Kansas City, MO is supportive of an STL TATL.


Those old, scurfy Fortune 500 cities, however, have significantly more air service than CMH does.

Let me close with this:

I am not trying to bash Columbus. We just have to be realistic here. The facts are:

1. CMH has pitiful domestic service for a metro of its size. Low frequency, not many non-stops.
2. Very few routes to the West Coast. The ones in place are heavily subsidized. In fact, CMH has revenue guarantees in place for CMH-OAK...and Southwest has cut that route back to seasonal.
3. The Columbus Metro CANNOT support a 787 TATL. There is no business or tourist draw to Greater Columbus that would support a flight.
4. CMH's proximity to other TATL cities proves a conflict. DTW, CVG, PIT all are close by. That drastically cuts into any CMH market draw.
5. CMH is a Delta/WN airport. American/OW has a very small presence at the airport. BA is OW. I also know that many Columbus area companies have contracts with DL and WN.
6. Club Access: No. Where will Premium Cabin passengers wait for their flight? Not in the terminal...
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: BA's Next US Destination

Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:37 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
flyPIT wrote:

It does? So tell us, how much money does PIT have lined up?


PIT/Pittsburgh hasn't released any numbers so until then, IND has the most.


You are correct they have not released numbers but why would one take that to mean IND has the most? Let me clue you in:

up to any amount, without a board vote. She used that authority in June for OneJet, followed by November agreements in which she granted $800,000 to WOW Air for service to Iceland and $500,000 to Condor for service to Germany.

Cassotis said she grants incentives only to airlines adding nonstop flights to places the airport doesn't already serve. That's why Spirit Airlines, which began flying from Pittsburgh to Myrtle Beach and Dallas-Ft. Worth on Thursday, didn't get one, she said. [/i]"
http://triblive.com/local/allegheny/12309717-74/looking-to-grow-its-airport-pittsburgh-invests-3m-in-startup-onejet

Now that does not mean they will write blank checks to anyone, nor should they as the PIT market is as good as the others mentioned but they most certainly are as competitive as anyone else when it comes to incentives.


1. This is a meaningless arguement, PIT wasn't even discussed as the five cities being looked at by BA(CMH/CLE/IND/STL/BNA). PIT already has 3 TATL flights, and the one non-leisure flight, DL PIT-CDG, has continually had its season shrunk because of poor seat utilization. The last TATL numbers showed PIT(29,041) had fewer pax to London than IND(30,732). PIT is less likely than even CMH.

2.Until they give an estimate (like STL/IND have) of the amount of incentives they will offer you can't possibly make the argument that they are higher. Just because someone has the authority to do something doesn't mean they will. Technically, any airport/city/state could give 10s of millions of dollars in incentives to an airline, but that doesn't mean it will happen. PIT only gave 500k and 800k to DE and WW, which isn't even close to the incentives to be offered at STL/IND. What makes you think PIT will give BA the 5+ millions of dollars that STL/IND will offer, when they already have DL (who they gave 9 million), and recently have only given WW and DE 500-800k.

3. Could you increase the font I couldn't read what you were saying
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