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wjcandee
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:03 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Blows my mind that people who actually know something about aviation are arguing that the FAA should just have let the aircraft go and that they are "being ridiculous" or retaliatory for enforcing a significant safety regulation.....


I don't think anyone said that. You are just throwing tantrum. Those who are familiar said, this is the equivalent of a busted tail light traffic stop.


A traffic stop for 56 busted lights on the car, to be exact. In other words, a very-well-warranted one.
 
wjcandee
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:06 am

kalvado wrote:
US is short of money, and every dollar helps to reduce budget deficit.


This is hilarious. I'm sure that's exactly why an FAA Inspector would do that. They're probably polishing up his "Reduce The Deficit Award" medal right now.
 
wjcandee
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:16 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
B737900ER wrote:
AI Engineering has 2000 highly qualified and trained engineers, not two week crash course certificate holders. They can take apart any plane and put it together on their own..


Apparently not in compliance with the MM, however...

Your point, apparently, is that this is a systemic safety management problem at the airline, because the managers are not permitting these "highly qualified and trained engineers" to do their work in compliance with the Aircraft Maintenance Manual. And perhaps that the "highly qualified and trained engineers" who inspect the work of the other "highly qualified and trained engineers" must be being ignored when they correctly and repeatedly identify the noncompliant seat belts at multiple 100-hour inspections.

These FIFTY-SIX belts didn't lose their tags or have their labels worn off all at the same time. This happened slowly, over time. This item in the MM was ignored over and over and over on this airline's 100-hour inspections, and yet signed off as having been performed, until 56 of them, sitting out openly in the cabin, didn't comply.

Like an earlier poster mentioned, wonder how those torques and safety-wires are in hard-to-get-to places...
 
WIederling
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:33 am

aeropix wrote:
My point is that the FAA does not play favorites and can get any airline even the US ones for petty issues like these. I have seen it myself.


sounds more like a wide playing field for "personal vendetta time".... "Falling Down" :-)

On the other hand:
Readable tags on certified "thingies" do have some importance.
How else can you prove that $"thingy" has the properties it is required to have.
( Same for example with hoisting gear and the lable stating its save load bearing numbers ).

German TÜV auditors ( for road transport, biyearly check on automobiles ) used to make life miserable
for owners by inflexibly demanding the "~~" "certified part" sign was visible on all glassy items fixed to the car.
( windows, turn indicator, stop light, rear mirrors ... )
Murphy is an optimist
 
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qf789
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:33 am

Keep the thread on topic. This includes leaving the flamebait out of the discussion
Forum Moderator
 
strfyr51
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:41 am

LTU932 wrote:
I never knew seatbelt tags were that safety critical. I would have been more worried if the seatbelt itself was damaged, but better safe than sorry. Considering the issues AI is going through which could come at the expense of safety and maintenance, I'd say it was a good call by the FAA.

It might seem like not much but the seat belts are all certified, tested and carry a tag to say via What Tech Standard order and date., if the tag is worn or unreadable? The seat belt might have been salvaged from a crashed or retired airplane or Bogus!! Seems a small thing but they DO have a standard amd evidently AI wasn't meeting the Standard. And it's rumored they don't met a LOT of standards.
 
kalvado
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:28 pm

wjcandee wrote:
kalvado wrote:
US is short of money, and every dollar helps to reduce budget deficit.


This is hilarious. I'm sure that's exactly why an FAA Inspector would do that. They're probably polishing up his "Reduce The Deficit Award" medal right now.

Well, it is almost official that speeding tickets are a major source of revenue for governments on all levels. I don't know if FAA hands out quotas like... khm... some police departments do. Maybe not yet? ANd no, I don't believe FAA inspectors - who don't need any special qualification or certification for the job - know it best. AI may be in the wrong, but FAA inspectors also have a history of power trips.
 
kalvado
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:32 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
LTU932 wrote:
I never knew seatbelt tags were that safety critical. I would have been more worried if the seatbelt itself was damaged, but better safe than sorry. Considering the issues AI is going through which could come at the expense of safety and maintenance, I'd say it was a good call by the FAA.

It might seem like not much but the seat belts are all certified, tested and carry a tag to say via What Tech Standard order and date., if the tag is worn or unreadable? The seat belt might have been salvaged from a crashed or retired airplane or Bogus!! Seems a small thing but they DO have a standard amd evidently AI wasn't meeting the Standard. And it's rumored they don't met a LOT of standards.

Equally, a tag on it says that someone attached a tag. It does not mean the part is certified, tested or havn't been salvaged from a crashed or retired airplane or Bogus.

And I hate to remind you, but use of parts from retired airplanes is OK if the part is serviceable.
If anything, maintenance records and purchasing records may be the key here
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:21 pm

The rumor that AI doesn't maintain their frames is spread mainly by two sources.

One guy on a.net who used to claim AC didn't like the way AI maintained/documented their B77Ls, hence didn't put an offer for AI B77Ls. That was a false statement, AC actually gave a very good offer($80M-$85M) based on FMV at that time. But AI's paid consultants assessed those at $95M and is a government bureaucracy, AI couldn't sell those at FMV without being called out by auditors.

Two years later AI realized B77L is a niche product and it can never get $95M and burning $60M($12Mx5)/year storing those and sold to EY at $65M/each including heavy check, which was way way lower than AC's offer. Indian auditor general even today complains AI didn't get the assessed value through its sale.

The second source was an Indian blogger, based on somebody's false tweet, he spread the rumor that VT-ALH had a hard landing and structural damage, later moved on to claim it has been scrapped. When AIESL was doing heavy checks on frames he started complaining AI was using VT-ALH components on sold frames. EY fitted these with its own cabins and IFE. Pretty much AI did was to remove its interiors and install EY's interiors.

Coming to the seat belt write-up, AI being the pack-rat, should have probably more than 1000 lightly used B777 seats removed from 5 sold B77Ls, subject to the expiration date.

Anyone suggesting AI is the only one had issues with their B787s should read
http://www.seattletimes.com/business/bo ... ne-boeing/

Every early operator had problems with early builds. The only difference Boeing and its suppliers couldn't provide replacements for rapidly failing components. AI's sloppy contract with Boeing allowed to it to remain on low priority, where as other operators with airtight contracts got preferential treatment.

There is nothing AI MX can do with software issues, failing spoiler actuators and cracking windshields, other than waiting on Boing and supply chain. But that is water under the bridge as AI got yuge overall compensation on B787 contract.

The same blogger claimed AI was not able to buy spare parts for their brand new B787s, which are under four-year warranty.

Fast forward, Boeing paid compensation for technical issues, extended warranty beyond four years for troubled components. AI also signed Boeing's Rotable Exchange Service, which is an advance part exchange program. In hindsight, it would have been much cheaper for Boeing had it supplied enough replacements on time.

Lessons AI learned from B787 fiasco,
1) Never buy early builds even if you get a sweet deal. They could be morbidly overweight, terrible teen/prolonged adolescent lemons.
2) Never buy new design engines, PBH is the way to go

Here is the hypocrisy in aviation.
If A320NEO has an engine problem it is PW's issue.
If non-AI B787s have issues, it is Boeing's problem
If AI B787s have issues, it is AI's problem.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:13 pm

Seat belts are a favorite of the FAA inspectors but another one is the certificate of airworthiness. I have seen an inspector ground an airplane because the date on the certificate of airworthiness was no time readable in the flight deck. It happens to all airlines.

dtw2hyd wrote:
The rumor that AI doesn't maintain their frames is spread mainly by two sources.

One guy on a.net who used to claim AC didn't like the way AI maintained/documented their B77Ls, hence didn't put an offer for AI B77Ls. That was a false statement, AC actually gave a very good offer($80M-$85M) based on FMV at that time. But AI's paid consultants assessed those at $95M and is a government bureaucracy, AI couldn't sell those at FMV without being called out by auditors.

Two years later AI realized B77L is a niche product and it can never get $95M and burning $60M($12Mx5)/year storing those and sold to EY at $65M/each including heavy check, which was way way lower than AC's offer. Indian auditor general even today complains AI didn't get the assessed value through its sale.

The second source was an Indian blogger, based on somebody's false tweet, he spread the rumor that VT-ALH had a hard landing and structural damage, later moved on to claim it has been scrapped. When AIESL was doing heavy checks on frames he started complaining AI was using VT-ALH components on sold frames. EY fitted these with its own cabins and IFE. Pretty much AI did was to remove its interiors and install EY's interiors.

Coming to the seat belt write-up, AI being the pack-rat, should have probably more than 1000 lightly used B777 seats removed from 5 sold B77Ls, subject to the expiration date.

Anyone suggesting AI is the only one had issues with their B787s should read
http://www.seattletimes.com/business/bo ... ne-boeing/

Every early operator had problems with early builds. The only difference Boeing and its suppliers couldn't provide replacements for rapidly failing components. AI's sloppy contract with Boeing allowed to it to remain on low priority, where as other operators with airtight contracts got preferential treatment.

There is nothing AI MX can do with software issues, failing spoiler actuators and cracking windshields, other than waiting on Boing and supply chain. But that is water under the bridge as AI got yuge overall compensation on B787 contract.

The same blogger claimed AI was not able to buy spare parts for their brand new B787s, which are under four-year warranty.

Fast forward, Boeing paid compensation for technical issues, extended warranty beyond four years for troubled components. AI also signed Boeing's Rotable Exchange Service, which is an advance part exchange program. In hindsight, it would have been much cheaper for Boeing had it supplied enough replacements on time.

Lessons AI learned from B787 fiasco,
1) Never buy early builds even if you get a sweet deal. They could be morbidly overweight, terrible teen/prolonged adolescent lemons.
2) Never buy new design engines, PBH is the way to go

Here is the hypocrisy in aviation.
If A320NEO has an engine problem it is PW's issue.
If non-AI B787s have issues, it is Boeing's problem
If AI B787s have issues, it is AI's problem.


FAA inspectors can do this to any airline. It happens every day that an FAA inspector will walk around airplanes and look from problems. Seatbelt tags is one. They will also check placards, fire extinguishers, oxygen bottles, the certificate of airworthiness, etc. The airline is required to have a maintenance program that ensures compliance to the requirements. Mechanics then must follow through on the maintenance tasks.

Somewhere Air India failed. Either the maintenance program doesn't have adequate inspection instructions (typically in the form of task cards) or mechanics aren't following the task cards. It is as simple as that. It could be as simple as one engineer missing a requirement when developing the task cards.

This should not be interpreted as Air India can't maintain planes or any of the hypocrisy that you discussed. It will drive a change in the maintenance program for Air India and more issue such may gett discovered. That is why the FAA does this. And to those who think this is a move against India, FAA inspectors can be equally not aggressive or assertive to every airline. A reasonable FAA inspector is not going to force one tag to ground an airplane. Maybe a write up or fine, but get a new seatbelt and they would be good. Over 50 tags means that the maintenance program has a significant problem and grounding an airplane may be required to get the appropriate attention.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:27 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
FAA inspectors can do this to any airline. It happens every day that an FAA inspector will walk around airplanes and look from problems. Seatbelt tags is one. They will also check placards, fire extinguishers, oxygen bottles, the certificate of airworthiness, etc. The airline is required to have a maintenance program that ensures compliance to the requirements. Mechanics then must follow through on the maintenance tasks.

Somewhere Air India failed. Either the maintenance program doesn't have adequate inspection instructions (typically in the form of task cards) or mechanics aren't following the task cards. It is as simple as that. It could be as simple as one engineer missing a requirement when developing the task cards.

This should not be interpreted as Air India can't maintain planes or any of the hypocrisy that you discussed. It will drive a change in the maintenance program for Air India and more issue such may t discovered. That is why the FAA does this. And to those who think this is a move against India, FAA inspectors can be equally not aggressive or assertive to every airline.


AI has just 15xB777 and 24xB788s. There is no way it can hide B777 MX issues from FAA if it wants to operate 5xULH routes. In a week or two, all 15 have to show up at a FAA monitored station.

Same goes with B788s. Boeing and FAA have access to health data and there is no way AI can skip EASA's RIP at 48 stations.

The best intelligence source on foreign carrier equipment condition is MX/ramp workers. Without them, we wouldn't know what F pax do in plane showers. Would we?

And somehow AI takes offense with another bureaucratic organization is laughable, they love to drown in bureaucracy.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:03 pm

DTW2HYD, first off Boeing doesn't report health data to the FAA. They only report the FAA items required that are related to safety events FAR 121.703. A seat belt tag is not something Boeing would get involved in

http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part121-703-FAR.shtm

This type of issue is only found by an FAA inspector. There aren't that many of them. While they are finding issues on a daily basis, there are over 5,000 airplanes for them to cover. Foreign airlines will get even less oversight than domestic carriers, so the chance of an FAA inspector actually being on an Air India plane on any given day is very low.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:16 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
DTW2HYD, first off Boeing doesn't report health data to the FAA. They only report the FAA items required that are related to safety events FAR 121.703. A seat belt tag is not something Boeing would get involved in

http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part121-703-FAR.shtm

This type of issue is only found by an FAA inspector. There aren't that many of them. While they are finding issues on a daily basis, there are over 5,000 airplanes for them to cover. Foreign airlines will get even less oversight than domestic carriers, so the chance of an FAA inspector actually being on an Air India plane on any given day is very low.


My comment is about general health data access, not about seat belt tag condition. Others were trying to portray this as, what other major issues could be hidden if seat belt tags are worn. India and USA are signatories of aviation safety pact, both parties have complete access to all data related to all entities. The only condition is they cannot release it to the public.

FAA has 4000-5000 FSIs, highest number of inspectors in the world.
All posts are just opinions.
 
kalvado
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:27 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
DTW2HYD, first off Boeing doesn't report health data to the FAA. They only report the FAA items required that are related to safety events FAR 121.703. A seat belt tag is not something Boeing would get involved in

http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part121-703-FAR.shtm

This type of issue is only found by an FAA inspector. There aren't that many of them. While they are finding issues on a daily basis, there are over 5,000 airplanes for them to cover. Foreign airlines will get even less oversight than domestic carriers, so the chance of an FAA inspector actually being on an Air India plane on any given day is very low.


My comment is about general health data access, not about seat belt tag condition. Others were trying to portray this as, what other major issues could be hidden if seat belt tags are worn. India and USA are signatories of aviation safety pact, both parties have complete access to all data related to all entities. The only condition is they cannot release it to the public.

FAA has 4000-5000 FSIs, highest number of inspectors in the world.

Which is, actually, a very interesting question: should FAA get any data about planes which never come to US? Should FAA get full data for the frames which are owned and registered in other countries? Should other country agencies have equal access to same data for US airlines?
Such information can have a lot of commercial value - e.g. plane weight = load factors, political value - possible information about military charters, and what not...
 
Antarius
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:33 pm

Here is the hypocrisy in aviation.
If A320NEO has an engine problem it is PW's issue.
If non-AI B787s have issues, it is Boeing's problem
If AI B787s have issues, it is AI's problem.


If ALL 787s have issues it's Boeing's problem. If the issues are somehow majority affecting Air India, it's Air India's fault. The 320neo problems are being faced by many airlines around the world so it's clear that it isn't limited to one airline.

Globally the dispatch reliability of the 787 is over 99%. Only Air India has a paltry 97%. Ethiopian, ANA and JAL took early build 788 airframe too, yet somehow only AI has major issues.

The contract situation you mention is true. But who's fault is that?

AI management have the same attitude as you - blame everything except themselves. And it's no wonder that the situation and airline is so pathetically poor.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:10 pm

Antarius wrote:
If ALL 787s have issues it's Boeing's problem. If the issues are somehow majority affecting Air India, it's Air India's fault. The 320neo problems are being faced by many airlines around the world so it's clear that it isn't limited to one airline.

Globally the dispatch reliability of the 787 is over 99%. Only Air India has a paltry 97%. Ethiopian, ANA and JAL took early build 788 airframe too, yet somehow only AI has major issues.

The contract situation you mention is true. But who's fault is that?

AI management have the same attitude as you - blame everything except themselves. And it's no wonder that the situation and airline is so pathetically poor.


Don't cook up numbers, Antarius. Even during dog days AI never had DR below 98%. And it has one of the highest B787 utilization because India-EU 9 hr routes give an advantage over other carriers.

RR has to fix 100 Trents for ANA, a lot of ground time, do you see any one blaming ANA???

At the end of the day, AI managed to collect compensation beyond anyone's imagination without any compensation clauses in the contract. I am sure it is on phone with belt vendor about prematurely worn tags.

BTW, where is the list of AI incidents/accidents proving AI has a systematic maintenance issue? Let me know if you need a sample.
Last edited by dtw2hyd on Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
All posts are just opinions.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:16 pm

kalvado wrote:
Which is, actually, a very interesting question: should FAA get any data about planes which never come to US? Should FAA get full data for the frames which are owned and registered in other countries? Should other country agencies have equal access to same data for US airlines?
Such information can have a lot of commercial value - e.g. plane weight = load factors, political value - possible information about military charters, and what not...


Generally, aviation safety pacts cover aviation security, but countries with comprehensive aviation safety pacts share everything and protect the privacy of the partner country entities both public and private.

So what was wrong with ANI and what was she doing in AI Mumbai hangar for almost a year, no one would know other than AI, Boeing and both governments. Others can speculate, at best.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Antarius
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:28 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Antarius wrote:
If ALL 787s have issues it's Boeing's problem. If the issues are somehow majority affecting Air India, it's Air India's fault. The 320neo problems are being faced by many airlines around the world so it's clear that it isn't limited to one airline.

Globally the dispatch reliability of the 787 is over 99%. Only Air India has a paltry 97%. Ethiopian, ANA and JAL took early build 788 airframe too, yet somehow only AI has major issues.

The contract situation you mention is true. But who's fault is that?

AI management have the same attitude as you - blame everything except themselves. And it's no wonder that the situation and airline is so pathetically poor.


Don't cook up numbers, Antarius. Even during dog days AI never had DR below 98%. And it has one of the highest B787 utilization because India-EU 9 hr routes give an advantage over other carriers.

RR has to fix 100 Trents for ANA, a lot of ground time, do you see any one blaming ANA???

At the end of the day, AI managed to collect compensation beyond anyone's imagination without any compensation clauses in the contract. I am sure it is on phone with belt vendor about prematurely worn tags.

BTW, where is the list of AI incidents/accidents proving AI has a systematic maintenance issue? Let me know if you need a sample.


Here's my source - where's yours?

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ind ... 188141.cms

Or do you have a different standard of numbers and counting too, Lalit Bhanot?

This is exhausting. AI is great... I wish all airlines were like it. Happy now?
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1039
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:43 pm

kalvado wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
DTW2HYD, first off Boeing doesn't report health data to the FAA. They only report the FAA items required that are related to safety events FAR 121.703. A seat belt tag is not something Boeing would get involved in

http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part121-703-FAR.shtm

This type of issue is only found by an FAA inspector. There aren't that many of them. While they are finding issues on a daily basis, there are over 5,000 airplanes for them to cover. Foreign airlines will get even less oversight than domestic carriers, so the chance of an FAA inspector actually being on an Air India plane on any given day is very low.


My comment is about general health data access, not about seat belt tag condition. Others were trying to portray this as, what other major issues could be hidden if seat belt tags are worn. India and USA are signatories of aviation safety pact, both parties have complete access to all data related to all entities. The only condition is they cannot release it to the public.

FAA has 4000-5000 FSIs, highest number of inspectors in the world.

Which is, actually, a very interesting question: should FAA get any data about planes which never come to US? Should FAA get full data for the frames which are owned and registered in other countries? Should other country agencies have equal access to same data for US airlines?
Such information can have a lot of commercial value - e.g. plane weight = load factors, political value - possible information about military charters, and what not...


As a matter of fact the FAA and almost all other First world countries have data on all aircraft that airlines fly and do regular inspections. That is why certain airlines are not allowed to fly to the EU or the USA. And some airlines are allowed to maintain status quo but not expand.

As far as the seat belts go it's real simple......Was the seatbelt certified with the tags? If the answer is yes then if the tags are missing they are no longer certified. Black and white here folks, safety is NOT an option but a requirement.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8283
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:55 pm

Antarius wrote:

Here's my source - where's yours?

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ind ... 188141.cms

Or do you have a different standard of numbers and counting too, Lalit Bhanot?

This is exhausting. AI is great... I wish all airlines were like it. Happy now?


Seriously, Indian media outlet as source??? Try something else. If this was from a parliament Q&A session, post the actual answer from minister.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Antarius
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:14 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Antarius wrote:

Here's my source - where's yours?

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ind ... 188141.cms

Or do you have a different standard of numbers and counting too, Lalit Bhanot?

This is exhausting. AI is great... I wish all airlines were like it. Happy now?


Seriously, Indian media outlet as source??? Try something else. If this was from a parliament Q&A session, post the actual answer from minister.


So lets see.. I post a source that you don't like and its discounted. Let me guess, the Indian media is paid by the ME3 too? :rotfl: And they fudge dispatch reliability, a number that the average flyer couldn't be bothered to know or focus on.

Meanwhile, you state YOUR number, with zero sources.

This is comical. Next you'll tell us that AI is not losing money and its a ME3 conspiracy too? Hahahaha.
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Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:21 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
chinmay17shetye wrote:
AI is wrong no doubt but FAA is making a mountain out of a molehill. You don't give someone a sentence 20 years for a parking ticket.
The FAA should realize that there are a lot more factors that guarantee safety which are a lot more important when compared to faded seat belt signs.


We really aren't seeing the full story here. Perhaps a meeting with AI's maintenance directors and the FAA went sour and the FAA is reminding them who's boss? Petty? Sure, but we don't know he motivation behind why the FAA is laying the hammer down. A police officer probably wouldn't write you a ticket for speeding 5mph over the limit, but if you give him an attitude and yell at him he might consider writing the ticket.


I agree and a "broken windows policy" actually could be of value to FAA. Air India may be trying to let numerous small issues slide. FAA may be saying, no, you must pedantically follow our instructions. They are not suggestions; they are requirements. Be vigilant and follow the requirements. Anticipate close enforcement. And there is value in that.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8283
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:33 pm

Antarius wrote:

So lets see.. I post a source that you don't like and its discounted. Let me guess, the Indian media is paid by the ME3 too? :rotfl: And they fudge dispatch reliability, a number that the average flyer couldn't be bothered to know or focus on.

Meanwhile, you state YOUR number, with zero sources.

This is comical. Next you'll tell us that AI is not losing money and its a ME3 conspiracy too? Hahahaha.


I can post lot of data to prove my argument. But you wouldn't like it and do the SD/RTP magic to get it deleted. You made the allegation AI had systematic maintenance issues without any data, and you are posting from a media group known to be wrong 99% of the time on aviation related news, according to avherald.
All posts are just opinions.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4902
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:09 pm

kalvado wrote:
B737900ER wrote:
kalvado wrote:

As for "is it reasonable"... Remember AA approximately 1" grounding? Just as a reminder this is what happens when when government agency goes OOC.

It's a government agency doing its job. Aviation has a good safety record for a reason. People forget flying is inherently dangerous. What keeps you safe is adherence to those standards you complain about. A seatbelt may not seem like a big deal to you, but the level of neglect that AI shows towards that tells a larger story about their mentality towards the safe operation of their aircraft.

Do you remember the situation I am talking about? It had 0 to do with safety and 100% power trip by FAA.

you're making some pretty lofty assumptions and I suspect from opinion. Do you know the seatbelt tags were readable?? if you have NO direct knowledge?
then you might be overreaching. Because I'm SURE the FAA saw the REP and read Him / Her the Riot Act.
I've dealt with the Feds in my time as well, If they feel you're playing them? Then they'll be down on you like a RASH!! If AI doesn't like it? Clean up or stay HOME!!
 
kalvado
Posts: 2733
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:03 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
B737900ER wrote:
It's a government agency doing its job. Aviation has a good safety record for a reason. People forget flying is inherently dangerous. What keeps you safe is adherence to those standards you complain about. A seatbelt may not seem like a big deal to you, but the level of neglect that AI shows towards that tells a larger story about their mentality towards the safe operation of their aircraft.

Do you remember the situation I am talking about? It had 0 to do with safety and 100% power trip by FAA.

you're making some pretty lofty assumptions and I suspect from opinion. Do you know the seatbelt tags were readable?? if you have NO direct knowledge?
then you might be overreaching. Because I'm SURE the FAA saw the REP and read Him / Her the Riot Act.
I've dealt with the Feds in my time as well, If they feel you're playing them? Then they'll be down on you like a RASH!! If AI doesn't like it? Clean up or stay HOME!!

Well, there is no first hand information from FAA, no pictures, no nothing. Just statement from AI that they tried to act in good faith, but FAA came hard over them.
And what you're saying is that government officials love to have their asses kissed on a regular basis.. Well, sure they do.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:55 am

Revelation wrote:
I can only imagine the comments here if the roles were reversed and a US aircraft were not allowed to depart DEL due to worn seatbelt tags.

That should have been a warning... The PR is horrible. I have no doubt AI differs maintenance, but worn seat belt tags are a lame reason to suspend a flight.


Lightsaber
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kitplane01
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:23 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
There are unsold B788s going to scrappers straight from the factory.


You write the most amazing things. Over and over. Please provide a reference for a new build 788's being scrapped.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:06 am

lightsaber wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I can only imagine the comments here if the roles were reversed and a US aircraft were not allowed to depart DEL due to worn seatbelt tags.

That should have been a warning... The PR is horrible. I have no doubt AI differs maintenance, but worn seat belt tags are a lame reason to suspend a flight.


Lightsaber


If there was an earlier warning and it raised to class 3 offense, I don't think there is an option. The load was another issue, If these were just passenger seats, probably AI could have bumped 44 pax and block those seats, but I don't think all crew seats can be blocked-off.
All posts are just opinions.
 
yeelep
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:16 am

Many here have overstated the safety/importance of the TSO tag on passenger seat belts. At the (FAA regulated) airline I work for, the TSO tag is required to determine serviceability upon installation. Once in service it can be missing or illegible and not affect the serviceability of the belt.
 
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ksfo777
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:50 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Lessons AI learned from B787 fiasco,
1) Never buy early builds even if you get a sweet deal. They could be morbidly overweight, terrible teen/prolonged adolescent lemons.
2) Never buy new design engines, PBH is the way to go

Here is the hypocrisy in aviation.
If A320NEO has an engine problem it is PW's issue.
If non-AI B787s have issues, it is Boeing's problem
If AI B787s have issues, it is AI's problem.


I am not sure how many of you actually flew on AI, I have. My experience had been terrible.

One time I was on a flight from Singapore to Mumbai on a B787. You can see how poorly maintained the interior was. It didn't feel like a new airplane at all. Quite a number of the buttons for the windows were smashed in. The entertainment system doesn't work.

Furthermore, I think FAA probably had been getting complains or observed multiple violations by AI. It decided that it needs to do something drastic to get AI to comply.

The article by the Indian Media was also poorly written, which is very typical.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:24 am

ksfo777 wrote:

I am not sure how many of you actually flew on AI, I have. My experience had been terrible.

One time I was on a flight from Singapore to Mumbai on a B787. You can see how poorly maintained the interior was. It didn't feel like a new airplane at all. Quite a number of the buttons for the windows were smashed in. The entertainment system doesn't work.

Furthermore, I think FAA probably had been getting complains or observed multiple violations by AI. It decided that it needs to do something drastic to get AI to comply.

The article by the Indian Media was also poorly written, which is very typical.


Broken window switches and IFE remotes are not flight safety risks.

AI aircraft cabin condition is more to do with Indians attitude towards AI. It is not AIESL engineers breaking cabin interiors, it is the passengers.

Breaking armrests, peeling of mandatory placards, removing safety cards, damaging IFE remotes, window controls is a pass time.
Flushing almost everything in toilets including blankets is another major issue.

Like I said in the past, AI should follow Ryanair in designing vandal proof interiors.
All posts are just opinions.
 
DTWLAX
Topic Author
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:55 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:

Flushing almost everything in toilets including blankets is another major issue.

Enough of this nonsense. Are you cooking up stories here?
If something like this happened, please post a source for your information.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1202
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:03 pm

ksfo777 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Lessons AI learned from B787 fiasco,
1) Never buy early builds even if you get a sweet deal. They could be morbidly overweight, terrible teen/prolonged adolescent lemons.
2) Never buy new design engines, PBH is the way to go

Here is the hypocrisy in aviation.
If A320NEO has an engine problem it is PW's issue.
If non-AI B787s have issues, it is Boeing's problem
If AI B787s have issues, it is AI's problem.


I am not sure how many of you actually flew on AI, I have. My experience had been terrible.

One time I was on a flight from Singapore to Mumbai on a B787. You can see how poorly maintained the interior was. It didn't feel like a new airplane at all. Quite a number of the buttons for the windows were smashed in. The entertainment system doesn't work.

Furthermore, I think FAA probably had been getting complains or observed multiple violations by AI. It decided that it needs to do something drastic to get AI to comply.

The article by the Indian Media was also poorly written, which is very typical.


You maybe right about the FAA sensing AI might be slack on maintenance. But in the end they did a surprise inspection and didn't find anything material. The seatbelt thing is wrong on AI's part, but hardly a systematic issue. As far as plane interiors, there was a time when US airlines had a lot of old crappy planes. In the mid 2000's delta flew old 767 that looked like they were on their last legs. Then the economy boomed and they renovated the planes. So you can't say poor interior upkeep = flight safety risk.
 
Antarius
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:06 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Broken window switches and IFE remotes are not flight safety risks.

AI aircraft cabin condition is more to do with Indians attitude towards AI. It is not AIESL engineers breaking cabin interiors, it is the passengers.

Breaking armrests, peeling of mandatory placards, removing safety cards, damaging IFE remotes, window controls is a pass time.
Flushing almost everything in toilets including blankets is another major issue.

Like I said in the past, AI should follow Ryanair in designing vandal proof interiors.


So to be clear, Indians fly 6E far more than AI.. but somehow they save their vandalism to AI only? Same with EK.. how is it that 6E, EK etc. can maintain decent aircraft but AI had a 2 year old 787 that looks like it was made 30 years ago.

:roll:
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lightsaber
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:14 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I can only imagine the comments here if the roles were reversed and a US aircraft were not allowed to depart DEL due to worn seatbelt tags.

That should have been a warning... The PR is horrible. I have no doubt AI differs maintenance, but worn seat belt tags are a lame reason to suspend a flight.


Lightsaber


If there was an earlier warning and it raised to class 3 offense, I don't think there is an option. The load was another issue, If these were just passenger seats, probably AI could have bumped 44 pax and block those seats, but I don't think all crew seats can be blocked-off.

Agreed. In the industry, paper, in this case tags, show when the seatbelt is certified to. Every so many years they are inspected, re-sewn as needed, proof tested (pulled), and then a new tag sewn on. The tags last longer than the allowed inspection interval, even on short hop (lots of handling) duty.

So yeah, if AI ignored a warning.. oh boy. Nothing is more certain to get the ire of the FAA than ignored warnings.

I joke that aviation is $1 parts with $5 of paper. AI needs to get their paper in order for easy audits. I survived a two day audit earlier this year where it was go until you found something wrong. Only issue was one technician didn't know spilling a lot of a pretty benign cleaner required a trained cleanup crew. Unfortunately now the government is sending auditors to Shadow me as a good example. Shoot! On the plus side, I've shaken hands with our governments' most senior auditor and the executive who manages them. :)

Never get on the bad side of your auditors...

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lightsaber
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:21 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
ksfo777 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Lessons AI learned from B787 fiasco,
1) Never buy early builds even if you get a sweet deal. They could be morbidly overweight, terrible teen/prolonged adolescent lemons.
2) Never buy new design engines, PBH is the way to go

Here is the hypocrisy in aviation.
If A320NEO has an engine problem it is PW's issue.
If non-AI B787s have issues, it is Boeing's problem
If AI B787s have issues, it is AI's problem.


I am not sure how many of you actually flew on AI, I have. My experience had been terrible.

One time I was on a flight from Singapore to Mumbai on a B787. You can see how poorly maintained the interior was. It didn't feel like a new airplane at all. Quite a number of the buttons for the windows were smashed in. The entertainment system doesn't work.

Furthermore, I think FAA probably had been getting complains or observed multiple violations by AI. It decided that it needs to do something drastic to get AI to comply.

The article by the Indian Media was also poorly written, which is very typical.


You maybe right about the FAA sensing AI might be slack on maintenance. But in the end they did a surprise inspection and didn't find anything material. The seatbelt thing is wrong on AI's part, but hardly a systematic issue. As far as plane interiors, there was a time when US airlines had a lot of old crappy planes. In the mid 2000's delta flew old 767 that looked like they were on their last legs. Then the economy boomed and they renovated the planes. So you can't say poor interior upkeep = flight safety risk.

You realize that the US airlines crap interiors were a sign of differed maintenance an impending bankruptcy? The FAA knows little things might indicate say differed engine overhauls or aircraft maintenance. There is a correlation.

If a prior warning hadn't been issued, lame to ground the plane. But 44 seatbelts does show a systematic issue... The more I think about it, the more I ponder how durable those tags are and how all safety devices have a test interval...

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:13 pm

Antarius wrote:
So to be clear, Indians fly 6E far more than AI.. but somehow they save their vandalism to AI only? Same with EK.. how is it that 6E, EK etc. can maintain decent aircraft but AI had a 2 year old 787 that looks like it was made 30 years ago.

:roll:


A B787 on Europe rotation is in the air for 16 hrs and a couple of hours at a remote station.

How is AI Engineering can cause so much damage to interior cabins in 4-6 hours?

Let 6E buy AI, the DPRK agents look alike FAs break bones of any one break arm rests.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Antarius
Posts: 2171
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:35 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Antarius wrote:
So to be clear, Indians fly 6E far more than AI.. but somehow they save their vandalism to AI only? Same with EK.. how is it that 6E, EK etc. can maintain decent aircraft but AI had a 2 year old 787 that looks like it was made 30 years ago.

:roll:


A B787 on Europe rotation is in the air for 16 hrs and a couple of hours at a remote station.

How is AI Engineering can cause so much damage to interior cabins in 4-6 hours?

Let 6E buy AI, the DPRK agents look alike FAs break bones of any one break arm rests.


No one said AI Engineering CAUSES the damage.. they just don't do a good job fixing it.

As for the last line, it isn't a coherent sentence, let alone relevant (if I could fully figure it out)
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dtw2hyd
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:55 pm

Antarius wrote:
No one said AI Engineering CAUSES the damage.. they just don't do a good job fixing it.


Ok, so how can you compare if no other Indian operator has B787s.

6E doesn't have IFE or dimmable windows and on 90-minute flights. Bored Indians can do a lot more damage on a (U)LH flight.

Why is 6E complaining about 1127s, can't they fix on their, don't they have money to buy spare parts, are they being sloppy with MX.
Going back to hypocrisy, there are quite a few AOG A320s with engine covers on and 6E getting six-hour swaps.

On your client product placement statement, until recently EK used to send "visibly inferior" planes to India. Not my words. Thanks to Mueller, EK got rid of those 19-year-old clunkers.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Antarius
Posts: 2171
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:36 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Antarius wrote:
No one said AI Engineering CAUSES the damage.. they just don't do a good job fixing it.


Ok, so how can you compare if no other Indian operator has B787s.

6E doesn't have IFE or dimmable windows and on 90-minute flights. Bored Indians can do a lot more damage on a (U)LH flight.

Why is 6E complaining about 1127s, can't they fix on their, don't they have money to buy spare parts, are they being sloppy with MX.
Going back to hypocrisy, there are quite a few AOG A320s with engine covers on and 6E getting six-hour swaps.

On your client product placement statement, until recently EK used to send "visibly inferior" planes to India. Not my words. Thanks to Mueller, EK got rid of those 19-year-old clunkers.


Now you're just trolling...
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dtw2hyd
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:07 pm

Did EK outsourced its PR to India as a cost cutting measure, at least Brits had subject knowledge to debate, now nothing.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Antarius
Posts: 2171
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Re: FAA bars AI 126 ORD-DEL from flying

Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:11 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Did EK outsourced its PR to India as a cost cutting measure, at least Brits had subject knowledge to debate, now nothing.


Repeat after me... and seriously, you sound like a loon with comments like this.

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