Legend757
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F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:35 pm

F9 wasn't done with SAT when they announced six new markets a few weeks ago.

SAT-ONT/IAD begin this Oct which brings destinations served from SAT to 13 by next spring. F9 will offer a connecting option in SAT for IAD and ONT.

SAT-IAD Oct 6, 4X Weekly, 320
SAT-ONT Oct 13, 4X Weekly, 320

Great to see continued growth at SAT, especially to the much needed D.C. area.

https://therivardreport.com/frontier-ad ... s-ontario/
 
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jnev3289
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:52 pm

$39/$49 fares aplenty for the IAD route
 
loisencroach
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:40 pm

ONT-SAT on top of ONT-AUS. What is the commercial relationship and/or VFR between the Inland Empire and Central Texas? ExpressJet flew both routes back up until mid-2008 so there must be something.....just curious what it is.
 
nine4nine
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:18 pm

Really surprised they would enter/boost ONT before BUR a more proven secondary airport. ONT fluctuates drastically with the economy.
717 727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 742 748 752 753 762 763 772 773 DC9 MD80/88/90 DC10 319 320 321 332 333 CS100 CRJ200 Q400 E175 E190 ERJ145 EMB120
 
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TransWorldOne
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:37 pm

SAT-ONT will be a bust, I'll tell you that right now.
 
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jbpdx
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:46 pm

TransWorldOne wrote:
SAT-ONT will be a bust, I'll tell you that right now.


Agreed. Especially on an A320. It'd be iffy on an E175.
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jonair8
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:22 pm

Good news for ONT. Part of me believes that this is part of schmoozing and incentivizing by the new airport authority to try to attract more service. This route is actually tagged as a through flight from ONT all the way to IAD but officially a nonstop to SAT. Service to the D.C. area has long been on the wishlist for the Inland Empire. (regardless of whether or not such a route could be supported) With the announcement of Dynamic Air's intention to one day provide scheduled service to China, and now China Airlines exploring moving a flight from LAX to ONT, it seems like ONT is hard at work at trying to attract new service. Good luck to them.
 
dc10lover
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:58 pm

Would ONT - IAD non - stop be better? Maybe Frontier needs to add more Non - stop service from ONT to the larger cities.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
Flighty
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:05 pm

Jesus.
 
727200
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:06 pm

Not sure that F9 route planners havn't been smoking some of that ganja. Looks to me that they are trying anything to make a niche market.
 
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jbpdx
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:10 pm

TransWorldOne wrote:
SAT-ONT will be a bust, I'll tell you that right now.


They have the dartboard out again.

United uses an E175 most of the year SAT-SFO and it's the only flight on that route.
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Midwestindy
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:32 pm

Lets look at the good ole PDEW numbers, shall we...

SAT-ONT
Q1-45 PDEW
Q2-46 PDEW
Q3-38 PDEW
Q4-55 PDEW

I understand market stimulation, but I mean c'mon now.... ONT is out of the way for most leisure pax, plus SAT-LAX already has 3 carriers on it now
Last edited by Midwestindy on Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SurfandSnow
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:40 pm

Great to see continued faith in ONT and IAD too! Many are quick to criticize these airports as "too far" - but for millions of people, they are the most convenient. When it comes to places further afield, popular smartphone applications like Lyft, Uber and Waze enable travelers to get to/from these airports much cheaper and/or faster than before. I can't speak for DC but here in LA our primary airport has gotten so bad that travelers can typically save time (let alone hassle) by using more distant alternatives. At most times of day, I would be shocked if even the most seasoned traveler could claim a checked bag, pick up a rental car, and get to downtown LA faster from LAX than ONT.

ONT has been stifled by high fares and poor management for years. I think it offers tremendous potential to an ULCC like F9. Services like AUS/DEN/ORD/SAT-ONT could be linked to, oh I don't know, ONT-LAS/RNO/SEA/SFO (and vice versa). Plenty of room to grow and offer connections...although with over 4 million people at ONT's doorstep, there will be tons of O&D too.
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Midwestindy
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:55 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
Great to see continued faith in ONT and IAD too! Many are quick to criticize these airports as "too far" - but for millions of people, they are the most convenient. When it comes to places further afield, popular smartphone applications like Lyft, Uber and Waze enable travelers to get to/from these airports much cheaper and/or faster than before. I can't speak for DC but here in LA our primary airport has gotten so bad that travelers can typically save time (let alone hassle) by using more distant alternatives. At most times of day, I would be shocked if even the most seasoned traveler could claim a checked bag, pick up a rental car, and get to downtown LA faster from LAX than ONT.

ONT has been stifled by high fares and poor management for years. I think it offers tremendous potential to an ULCC like F9. Services like AUS/DEN/ORD/SAT-ONT could be linked to, oh I don't know, ONT-LAS/RNO/SEA/SFO (and vice versa). Plenty of room to grow and offer connections...although with over 4 million people at ONT's doorstep, there will be tons of O&D too.


Why would F9 offer connections in ONT, when they haven't even started service there yet. LAX isn't that expensive to operate out of either, that's in addition to the fact that F9's hub in DEN does all those connections already. I think you may be overestimating ONT's potential...
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freakyrat
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:00 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Lets look at the good ole PDEW numbers, shall we...

SAT-ONT
Q1-45 PDEW
Q2-46 PDEW
Q3-38 PDEW
Q4-55 PDEW

I understand market stimulation, but I mean c'mon now.... ONT is out of the way for most leisure pax, plus SAT-LAX already has 3 carriers on it now


Except for those going to the Inland Empire. Skydivers travelling to Perris or Lake Elsinore. Travellers going to PSP, Skiers gping to Big Bear among the people who woiuld take these flights.
 
SATexan
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:10 pm

Good additions for SAT. We can definitely use more service to the DC and LA areas. If it is a ONT-SAT-IAD route like someone has mentioned I wouldn't worry much about the viability. But ONT-SAT standalone on a 320 would be too much capacity like how others have rightly pointed out.

jbpdx wrote:
United uses an E175 most of the year SAT-SFO and it's the only flight on that route.


Well, the fact that SAT-SFO is under-served has nothing to do with this route. For comparison AUS-SFO has 9 daily non stops on mainline aircrafts. So SAT is definitely under-served and I really can't explain why United uses only an E175.
 
SATexan
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:12 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
ONT is out of the way for most leisure pax, plus SAT-LAX already has 3 carriers on it now

SAT-LAX has 4 carriers on it now. F9 will be the 5th..
 
BGS91762
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:15 pm

jbpdx wrote:
TransWorldOne wrote:
SAT-ONT will be a bust, I'll tell you that right now.


Agreed. Especially on an A320. It'd be iffy on an E175.

Flew Expressjet years ago on ONT-SAT and flight were always full or oversold. Lots of OC residents.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:20 pm

SATexan wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
ONT is out of the way for most leisure pax, plus SAT-LAX already has 3 carriers on it now

SAT-LAX has 4 carriers on it now. F9 will be the 5th..


As the title of the thread states, F9 is flying SAT-ONT not SAT-LAX, but yes, you are correct there are 4 carriers on SAT-LAX now and one on SAT-ONT.
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BGS91762
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:23 pm

SATexan wrote:
Good additions for SAT. We can definitely use more service to the DC and LA areas. If it is a ONT-SAT-IAD route like someone has mentioned I wouldn't worry much about the viability. But ONT-SAT standalone on a 320 would be too much capacity like how others have rightly pointed out.

jbpdx wrote:
United uses an E175 most of the year SAT-SFO and it's the only flight on that route.


Well, the fact that SAT-SFO is under-served has nothing to do with this route. For comparison AUS-SFO has 9 daily non stops on mainline aircrafts. So SAT is definitely under-served and I really can't explain why United uses only an E175.

People going to Disney and and beaches in OC in addition to San Gabriel Valley including Pasadena.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:35 pm

BGS91762 wrote:
SATexan wrote:
Good additions for SAT. We can definitely use more service to the DC and LA areas. If it is a ONT-SAT-IAD route like someone has mentioned I wouldn't worry much about the viability. But ONT-SAT standalone on a 320 would be too much capacity like how others have rightly pointed out.

jbpdx wrote:
United uses an E175 most of the year SAT-SFO and it's the only flight on that route.


Well, the fact that SAT-SFO is under-served has nothing to do with this route. For comparison AUS-SFO has 9 daily non stops on mainline aircrafts. So SAT is definitely under-served and I really can't explain why United uses only an E175.

People going to Disney and and beaches in OC in addition to San Gabriel Valley including Pasadena.


If you are going to Disney why would you fly into ONT, when you could fly into SNA/LGB. ONT is also the farthest of the airports from the coast, and LAX is closer to most of the popular beaches (ex.Venice, Santa Monice, e.t.c). Depending on traffic, LAX is even closer to Pasadena, and if you are going to Pasadena anyway you could fly into BUR.
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BGS91762
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:47 pm

None of those other airports have $100 fares OW from SA. I fly weekly from Ontario and always meet people from OC and SGV on my flights. It's usually because of the convenience and fares. I live in Fullerton and always choose ONT over LAX and even SNA. Not that unusual.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:20 pm

I'm fine with being proven wrong, but until I am, I don't see why F9 should turn ONT into a connecting hub as some have suggested.
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TransWorldOne
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:27 pm

BGS91762 wrote:
jbpdx wrote:
TransWorldOne wrote:
SAT-ONT will be a bust, I'll tell you that right now.


Agreed. Especially on an A320. It'd be iffy on an E175.

Flew Expressjet years ago on ONT-SAT and flight were always full or oversold. Lots of OC residents.


Full flights on an Embraer 145 and full flights on an A320 are two very different things. Plus, we all know that full flights don't equal profitable flights. I give SAT-ONT one year max.
 
BGS91762
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:36 am

With the one stop to IAD it may do good if the price is right. There are approximately 10 million people within a 30 mile radius of ONT. Not some small town. And before people say they are low income and don't fly let me say it includes some wealthy areas that are tired of driving to LAX.
 
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mariner
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:49 am

TransWorldOne wrote:
Full flights on an Embraer 145 and full flights on an A320 are two very different things. Plus, we all know that full flights don't equal profitable flights. I give SAT-ONT one year max.


Well, you may be right, but I don't know anyone who can predict the future.

I do remember when Frontier announced service at TTN and all the smart a's on a.net blew a gasket.

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Midwestindy
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:51 am

BGS91762 wrote:
With the one stop to IAD it may do good if the price is right. There are approximately 10 million people within a 30 mile radius of ONT. Not some small town. And before people say they are low income and don't fly let me say it includes some wealthy areas that are tired of driving to LAX.


You can't just say its 10 million people, considering airports like PSP, BUR, LGB, SNA, and LAX are possibly more convenient for many people living within that radius. There may be some wealth around ONT, but a majority of the wealth is not focussed around ONT.
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mariner
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:00 am

Midwestindy wrote:
BGS91762 wrote:
You can't just say its 10 million people, considering airports like PSP, BUR, LGB, SNA, and LAX are possibly more convenient for many people living within that radius. There may be some wealth around ONT, but a majority of the wealth is not focussed around ONT.


Why would a ULCC be interested in wealth?

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BGS91762
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:06 am

mariner wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
BGS91762 wrote:
You can't just say its 10 million people, considering airports like PSP, BUR, LGB, SNA, and LAX are possibly more convenient for many people living within that radius. There may be some wealth around ONT, but a majority of the wealth is not focussed around ONT.


Why would a ULCC be interested in wealth?
mariner

Good point!! Then Frontier should do great at ONT following the previous posts.
 
msycajun
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:11 am

loisencroach wrote:
ONT-SAT on top of ONT-AUS. What is the commercial relationship and/or VFR between the Inland Empire and Central Texas? ExpressJet flew both routes back up until mid-2008 so there must be something.....just curious what it is.


I think this is a pretty clever strategy on F9's part - though who knows how much money it will make. If you look, F9 is running IAD-SAT-ONT-SAT IAD 4 weekly and IAD-AUS-ONT-AUS-IAD on the other 3 days. This allows them to offer a daily one stop IAD-ONT service which bolsters the local ONT-AUS/SAT markets. They are doing similar things all over the route map and it a good way to get the best of both point-to-point and connecting models without the expense of a banked hub.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:24 am

Let's pump the brakes for a second and remember that F9 isn't even starting service till October, and we have people talking about a Hub. You can't call F9's operation a success in ONT before it has even started.
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mariner
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:34 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Let's pump the brakes for a second and remember that F9 isn't even starting service till October, and we have people talking about a Hub. You can't call F9's operation a success in ONT before it has even started.


Nor can you call them a failure. which you seem eager to do.

mariner
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Midwestindy
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:38 am

mariner wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Let's pump the brakes for a second and remember that F9 isn't even starting service till October, and we have people talking about a Hub. You can't call F9's operation a success in ONT before it has even started.


Nor can you call them a failure. which you seem eager to do.

mariner


Not eager at all to call it a failure, I am just being realistic, and just surprised by the markets they have chosen.
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mariner
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:43 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Not eager at all to call it a failure, I am just being realistic, and just surprised by the markets they have chosen.


A realist would say they are surprised at the choices and probably leave it at that.

I have been surprised by Frontier, both positively and negatively, far too often these past twenty years to make definitive statements. See TTN above, which has to be accounted a success, although a very surprising one, and also see ILG which was a failure and not a surprising one.

mariner
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Midwestindy
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:55 am

mariner wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Not eager at all to call it a failure, I am just being realistic, and just surprised by the markets they have chosen.


A realist would say they are surprised at the choices and probably leave it at that.

I have been surprised by Frontier, both positively and negatively, far too often these past twenty years to make definitive statements. See TTN above, which has to be accounted a success, although a very surprising one, and also see ILG which was a failure and not a surprising one.

mariner


Never did I ever make a definitive statement on F9. What I was saying was we need to wait until these routes actually start to see how viable they are. Looking at the future, if these routes are successful, F9 still has a sizeable operation at LAX and still flies out of SNA, so I am not sure F9 wants to take too many pax away from those operations moving forward.
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mariner
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:05 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Never did I ever make a definitive statement on F9. What I was saying was we need to wait until these routes actually start to see how viable they are. Looking at the future, if these routes are successful, F9 still has a sizeable operation at LAX and still flies out of SNA, so I am not sure F9 wants to take too many pax away from those operations moving forward.


It sure read negative to me, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt - LOL.

I am confused, however, about your fears for the possible success of ONT. I can think of more than one airline that has more than one gateway to southern California so I'm not sure why Frontier should be different. Then again, maybe ONT won't work and your problem will be moot.

mariner
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phluser
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:11 am

It is interesting that ONT will have nonstops to SAT and AUS, but it will not to Houston (IAH or HOU). Any other airport where SAT and/or AUS has a nonstop but Houston doesn't?

Midwestindy wrote:
Looking at the future, if these routes are successful, F9 still has a sizeable operation at LAX and still flies out of SNA, so I am not sure F9 wants to take too many pax away from those operations moving forward.


I don't think siphoning it's own pax that would use LAX is that much a concern. The LAX market is huge while F9 is small overall. It's also not like F9 is running AUS-LAX and SAT-LAX simultaneously while running AUS-ONT and SAT-ONT also. And again, F9 is still small. DEN is overlapped but t it might have hub flows through. The challenges F9 will have might be limited to get enough pax to fill the flights and profitably. Kayakers and pax using other 3rd party OTAs seeking LAX-DCA might find this ONT-SAT-IAD flight as the cheapest in their search results at certain times. It probably won't be good for F9 if it's sending a lot of thru pax.

nine4nine wrote:
Really surprised they would enter/boost ONT before BUR a more proven secondary airport. ONT fluctuates drastically with the economy.


Fluctuates drastically kind of matches F9's dartboard route strategy, and being minor carrier all over the place than being stable in too many places.
 
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Frontier14
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Re: F9 Adds SAT-ONT/IAD

Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:44 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
mariner wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Not eager at all to call it a failure, I am just being realistic, and just surprised by the markets they have chosen.


A realist would say they are surprised at the choices and probably leave it at that.

I have been surprised by Frontier, both positively and negatively, far too often these past twenty years to make definitive statements. See TTN above, which has to be accounted a success, although a very surprising one, and also see ILG which was a failure and not a surprising one.

mariner


Never did I ever make a definitive statement on F9. What I was saying was we need to wait until these routes actually start to see how viable they are. Looking at the future, if these routes are successful, F9 still has a sizeable operation at LAX and still flies out of SNA, so I am not sure F9 wants to take too many pax away from those operations moving forward.


Not so sure Frontier has a sizeable presence at LAX. There maybe 8-10 flights per day out of one gate. Whether these newly announced routes from ONT are a success or not, only time will tell. But this will give them a 3rd access point in the LA basin from which to give their operational model a try.

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