MIflyer12
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:35 pm

atl100million wrote:

UA is holding onto small RJs because it clearly can't or won't buy more mainline upgrade to allow the sequential upgrade from large RJ to mainline and small RJ to large RJ.

UA does not want to make that upgrade process.


There was a post elsewhere that noted UA was approaching its large RJ cap. If that's what you mean by can't upgrade, well, OK.

DL is also approaching its large RJ caps. There's no way either can just drop E145/CR2 counts to zero and backfill with CR9/E75. (Enthusiasts, and business travelers to/from small cities, wouldn't want to see the drastic destination drops that would come with that, anyway. Some routes just aren't going to support trips costs of a CR9 vs. CR2, no matter the CASM, because they won't be able to fill the extra seats at decent fares.)

As for just operating large RJs with mainline crew, there's just one thing standing in the way: $$$$$.
 
xdlx
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:40 pm

I think what this demonstrates is: Your "connection" to mainline is neither better or more profitable than the mainline service. We are coming full circle from the post 9/11 Explosion of growth when mainline carriers parked their 727 in lieu of 2.5 CRJ or ERJ. Regionals experience growth they would have not been able to produce organically, and those that did; like EV and OH, where the first casualties for this model. NOW mainline is in fashion AGAIN, and the 717/CSeries orders prove the COST & PERFORMANCE of mainline is better controlled in house than with TOP OUT employees the like EV and OH or XJT had. The regional model is only convenient to the Mainline when the Regional pay is sub 5years in service. They do not want SENIOR REGIONAL CREWS......
 
atl100million
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:00 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
atl100million wrote:

UA is holding onto small RJs because it clearly can't or won't buy more mainline upgrade to allow the sequential upgrade from large RJ to mainline and small RJ to large RJ.

UA does not want to make that upgrade process.


There was a post elsewhere that noted UA was approaching its large RJ cap. If that's what you mean by can't upgrade, well, OK.

DL is also approaching its large RJ caps. There's no way either can just drop E145/CR2 counts to zero and backfill with CR9/E75. (Enthusiasts, and business travelers to/from small cities, wouldn't want to see the drastic destination drops that would come with that, anyway. Some routes just aren't going to support trips costs of a CR9 vs. CR2, no matter the CASM, because they won't be able to fill the extra seats at decent fares.)

As for just operating large RJs with mainline crew, there's just one thing standing in the way: $$$$$.


nobody is saying that there is a fixed day to eliminate 50 seat RJs. But DL has been the most aggressive in converting 50 seat flights to large RJs and large RJ flights to mainline. UA was making alot of progress in that area as well.
I have no idea of the final number of each class of RJs for any of the big 3 but it certainly appears that UA is at least slowing its pulldown of small RJs and might actually be going backward by adding them back. IDK but and DL do have plans that will result in a confirmed reduction in the number of small RJs.

And the number of RJs vs. mainline that an airline can support is a function of their network. WN flies none of them but also doesn't serve near as many cities as the big 3. If UA or AA has more small RJs than DL and has hit the large RJ cap in their pilot contracts, then their network doesn't support larger aircraft.
Given that most small RJs connect passengers to mainline flights at hubs, if DL operates fewer small RJs, they will be able to offer a better product and do it a lower CASM.
 
capitalflyer
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:55 pm

With the reduction in 50 seat RJs, will small cities see their higher frequency CR2/E145 flights replaced with only one or two frequencies on CR7/9/E70-75? Will this be good for small cities or might we actually see some destinations eliminated?

I think of SBN which is extensively served by OO and exclusively by CR2 for United and Delta. While mainline or large RJ offers 1st class, etc. will that offset reduced frequency and convenience of more flight options?
 
alasizon
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:11 pm

atl100million wrote:
The chances are pretty high that the CR7 cabin mod was planned and underway before Expressjet/Skywest came to DL. Presumably the cost of the mods is included in the value of the aircraft that then can be redeployed to other carriers.

Also, the DL CR7 cabins have 69 seats, more than what AA has according to what was posted above. It will be interesting if they re-mod the aircraft back to 65 seats or if AA will have 2 CR7 configs or convert its other CR7s to 69 seats by moving the rear bulkhead as DL did.


AA already has three CR7 configs, OO birds are 6F/64Y, MQ/OH bird are either 9F/56Y or 9F/54Y. AA likely would want all of these at 65 seats given they only count as a small RJ then. No doubt AA would be interested in these birds because of the cabin upgrade that DL already paid for.
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STJ
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:11 pm

Personally I see DL eventually moving to do all it's own "regional" flying via 9E. It gives it flexibility and the ability to control it's product which is harder when you contract out. Even though they owned XJ I don't think it was scalable to what they wanted which is why they sold it to 9E in the first place also knowing 9E was financially shaky as it was and would essentially choke on it and DL could then come in just like NW did when it bought XJ but now have the combined regional both having been run through the bankruptcy cost reduction program but now something you could push EV out. I know EV has been wearing thin on DL especially when they have been commuting EV pilots on DL flights to IAD to operate UA flights, I know that was driving DL up the wall.

EV's performance numbers at least on the DL side haven't always been the greatest either which is something else I am sure DL had issue with, again DL with all the aircraft upgrades, service upgrades is really trying to distance itself with the "product" now compared to others so having control of it means alot. It is all about controlling everything possible in their universe, heck they even went out and bought a refinery to help control jet fuel costs.

As showing respect I will say that 9E in ATL didn't get a lot of it when they (EV) were taking our 900's from us. There were some that did but there were more that were clearly gloating, so I think there is a bit of Karma happening.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:23 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
flight152 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
I'm happy, 9E is a much better operation than EV and the employees are better as well.

Life just got a lot more difficult for a large group of people through no fault of their own and you're happy? Wow.

Go easy on him, and hear me out.

I think this is to resolve Expressjets staffing issues on the UA side. The total draw down of the Delta flying means 2 things: 1) those crews will do United flying now, resolving the staff shortage or 2) if they don't want to do that, they can go mainline Delta or anywhere else with the shortage starting. I know of the Expressjet staffing issues because my brother is an FA for them and my mother knows a good bit of Captains on a personal level having previously worked with them.

And the extension of 50 seat flying to 2022 means smaller markets can be/will continued to be served. With the focus shifting to domestic expansion, this is a great move all -around.


:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
AviationGeek78
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:29 pm

STJ wrote:
Personally I see DL eventually moving to do all it's own "regional" flying via 9E. It gives it flexibility and the ability to control it's product which is harder when you contract out. Even though they owned XJ I don't think it was scalable to what they wanted which is why they sold it to 9E in the first place also knowing 9E was financially shaky as it was and would essentially choke on it and DL could then come in just like NW did when it bought XJ but now have the combined regional both having been run through the bankruptcy cost reduction program but now something you could push EV out. I know EV has been wearing thin on DL especially when they have been commuting EV pilots on DL flights to IAD to operate UA flights, I know that was driving DL up the wall.

EV's performance numbers at least on the DL side haven't always been the greatest either which is something else I am sure DL had issue with, again DL with all the aircraft upgrades, service upgrades is really trying to distance itself with the "product" now compared to others so having control of it means alot. It is all about controlling everything possible in their universe, heck they even went out and bought a refinery to help control jet fuel costs.

As showing respect I will say that 9E in ATL didn't get a lot of it when they (EV) were taking our 900's from us. There were some that did but there were more that were clearly gloating, so I think there is a bit of Karma happening.

EV hasn't operated a UA base at IAD in more than 2 years. Secondly deadheading a crew member to operate one airline while deadheading on another was a no no, and if it occurred there were consequences. Thirdly 9E has always played a very limited role with roughly 6 flights a day into ATL until this past summer. EV controlled the Delta Connection operation in ATL until this year. You have several inaccuracies in this post.
 
amcnd
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:01 pm

alasizon wrote:
atl100million wrote:
The chances are pretty high that the CR7 cabin mod was planned and underway before Expressjet/Skywest came to DL. Presumably the cost of the mods is included in the value of the aircraft that then can be redeployed to other carriers.

Also, the DL CR7 cabins have 69 seats, more than what AA has according to what was posted above. It will be interesting if they re-mod the aircraft back to 65 seats or if AA will have 2 CR7 configs or convert its other CR7s to 69 seats by moving the rear bulkhead as DL did.


AA already has three CR7 configs, OO birds are 6F/64Y, MQ/OH bird are either 9F/56Y or 9F/54Y. AA likely would want all of these at 65 seats given they only count as a small RJ then. No doubt AA would be interested in these birds because of the cabin upgrade that DL already paid for.



So just duck tape over the Delta economy comfort stitching on the seats?? They would have to completely recover all the seats and redo the row numbers and wifi ios...
 
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intotheair
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:03 pm

atl100million wrote:
nobody is saying that there is a fixed day to eliminate 50 seat RJs. But DL has been the most aggressive in converting 50 seat flights to large RJs and large RJ flights to mainline. UA was making alot of progress in that area as well.
I have no idea of the final number of each class of RJs for any of the big 3 but it certainly appears that UA is at least slowing its pulldown of small RJs and might actually be going backward by adding them back. IDK but and DL do have plans that will result in a confirmed reduction in the number of small RJs.

And the number of RJs vs. mainline that an airline can support is a function of their network. WN flies none of them but also doesn't serve near as many cities as the big 3. If UA or AA has more small RJs than DL and has hit the large RJ cap in their pilot contracts, then their network doesn't support larger aircraft.
Given that most small RJs connect passengers to mainline flights at hubs, if DL operates fewer small RJs, they will be able to offer a better product and do it a lower CASM.

I would generally agree that DL has a better (or at least has a clear) 50 seater plan. You would be hard-pressed to find any 50 seaters in DL's system on routes where they don't belong.

UA had a plan to have fewer than ~100 50 seaters by 2019, but then Scott Kirby happened. They're still drawing down a lot of 50 seater frames and the Dash 8s, though they've also backfilled them somewhat with the Air Wisconsin contract. YOY UAX is adding a net five 30-50 seat frames this year. And they've retired a slew of CR7s to have as many 76 seaters as they can, and they are now at the 70 and 76 seat limits under scope. What's different since Kirby is that UA has significantly increased its growth projections. They're starting to enter some really small markets and really thin routes. I think UA is eventually going to draw down a lot of the 50 seat flying, or at least restrict it to routes where they belong. But in the same breath, mainline utilization has increased to the point that a lot of former mainline markets are now seeing A319s and 73Gs again. They've added a handful of A319s to the fleet too. EUG and BUR come to mind as legacy UA markets that probably haven't seen permanent UA mainline service since 9/11.

There are still a lot of egregious 800+ nmi routes on CR2s in UA's system, unfortunately, but Scott Kirby has made it clear that the days of flying only a handful of CRJs and ERJs on big routes like EWR-ATL are over. The recent schedules reflect that, too.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
atl100million
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:59 pm

intotheair wrote:
atl100million wrote:
nobody is saying that there is a fixed day to eliminate 50 seat RJs. But DL has been the most aggressive in converting 50 seat flights to large RJs and large RJ flights to mainline. UA was making alot of progress in that area as well.
I have no idea of the final number of each class of RJs for any of the big 3 but it certainly appears that UA is at least slowing its pulldown of small RJs and might actually be going backward by adding them back. IDK but and DL do have plans that will result in a confirmed reduction in the number of small RJs.

And the number of RJs vs. mainline that an airline can support is a function of their network. WN flies none of them but also doesn't serve near as many cities as the big 3. If UA or AA has more small RJs than DL and has hit the large RJ cap in their pilot contracts, then their network doesn't support larger aircraft.
Given that most small RJs connect passengers to mainline flights at hubs, if DL operates fewer small RJs, they will be able to offer a better product and do it a lower CASM.

I would generally agree that DL has a better (or at least has a clear) 50 seater plan. You would be hard-pressed to find any 50 seaters in DL's system on routes where they don't belong.

UA had a plan to have fewer than ~100 50 seaters by 2019, but then Scott Kirby happened. They're still drawing down a lot of 50 seater frames and the Dash 8s, though they've also backfilled them somewhat with the Air Wisconsin contract. YOY UAX is adding a net five 30-50 seat frames this year. And they've retired a slew of CR7s to have as many 76 seaters as they can, and they are now at the 70 and 76 seat limits under scope. What's different since Kirby is that UA has significantly increased its growth projections. They're starting to enter some really small markets and really thin routes. I think UA is eventually going to draw down a lot of the 50 seat flying, or at least restrict it to routes where they belong. But in the same breath, mainline utilization has increased to the point that a lot of former mainline markets are now seeing A319s and 73Gs again. They've added a handful of A319s to the fleet too. EUG and BUR come to mind as legacy UA markets that probably haven't seen permanent UA mainline service since 9/11.

There are still a lot of egregious 800+ nmi routes on CR2s in UA's system, unfortunately, but Scott Kirby has made it clear that the days of flying only a handful of CRJs and ERJs on big routes like EWR-ATL are over. The recent schedules reflect that, too.


No one except the former ex-CO people who made the decisions could have ever believed that putting 50 seaters on major routes to/from an competitor hub made any sense.

However, UA will still be offering a single cabin product in many markets where its competitors are using 2 class RJs or mainline. DL jets are flying to 50 more US cities (149 total) than AA and UA.

Operating that many 50 seaters still doesn't reduce UA's system costs but just pushes the markets where they are trying to compete with RJs to a smaller subset of their total - but they will still have to compete against other carriers with better products.

UA also is betting on being able to staff those 50 seaters and that might become more and more difficult to do by the time 5 years is up
 
alasizon
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:08 pm

amcnd wrote:
alasizon wrote:
AA already has three CR7 configs, OO birds are 6F/64Y, MQ/OH bird are either 9F/56Y or 9F/54Y. AA likely would want all of these at 65 seats given they only count as a small RJ then. No doubt AA would be interested in these birds because of the cabin upgrade that DL already paid for.


So just duck tape over the Delta economy comfort stitching on the seats?? They would have to completely recover all the seats and redo the row numbers and wifi ios...


I'm not saying that AA wouldn't have to put new covers on the seats, but my understanding is that the mod was more extensive than just the seats (bins, lighting, etc). A WiFi carrier switch is not difficult from my understanding.
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C767P
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:19 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
flight152 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
I'm happy, 9E is a much better operation than EV and the employees are better as well.

Life just got a lot more difficult for a large group of people through no fault of their own and you're happy? Wow.

Go easy on him, and hear me out.

I think this is to resolve Expressjets staffing issues on the UA side. The total draw down of the Delta flying means 2 things: 1) those crews will do United flying now, resolving the staff shortage or 2) if they don't want to do that, they can go mainline Delta or anywhere else with the shortage starting. I know of the Expressjet staffing issues because my brother is an FA for them and my mother knows a good bit of Captains on a personal level having previously worked with them.

And the extension of 50 seat flying to 2022 means smaller markets can be/will continued to be served. With the focus shifting to domestic expansion, this is a great move all -around.


This is what few understand about ExpressJet.

There are still separate airlines, one operating the ERJ-145 and the other operating CRJs. They are not merged and a pilot cannot go from the CRJ to the ERJ via system bid like they might at SkyWest. Those on the CRJ side could very well be looking at a furlough.

“If they don’t want to do that, they can go to mainline Delta or elsewhere.”

If it were only that easy. Just about everyone on the CRJ list of ExpressJet has their app in at Delta. The process of getting hired at a legacy is competitive and difficult. Even qualified people with perfect records can have a very difficult time.

So many here don’t understand exactly how brutal and cruel the regional industry is. It is not as simple as just move over to another airline, as with that goes seniority. And to the comments about how Endeavor is so much better…well the front line employees at Express are the same type of people over at Endeavor. None of them are better or worse. It is the tools or lack thereof that Express has been getting. When you are given a broken airplane or don’t have an FO or many an FA, it is a challenge to do your job right.

This move sucks for those effected by it.
 
amcnd
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:08 pm

The merged list just came out.....
 
eugdjinn
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:02 am

but that would be the merged list for only the pilots. The flight attendants do not have a joint contract or a merged list and many will lose their jobs.
 
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intotheair
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:06 am

atl100million wrote:
No one except the former ex-CO people who made the decisions could have ever believed that putting 50 seaters on major routes to/from an competitor hub made any sense.

I don't want to get into a notorious PMUA vs. PMCO debate, but I would point out that PMUA was very RJ-heavy as well. PMCO had a more restrictive scope clause, but PMUA was in pretty bad shape for most of the 2000s to the point that the mainline fleet was really slimmed down. Once they retired the 737 classics as a cost move, they had nothing but RJs to fill a lot of those smaller markets. Once they merged, the looser scope and 737NG orders helped some, but UA under Smisek still believed in shrinking to profitability as a game winning strategy. I'm not sure it really worked out all that well, to say the least.

UA also is betting on being able to staff those 50 seaters and that might become more and more difficult to do by the time 5 years is up

I think this is a going to become an even more serious concern for all airlines. It won't affect only be UA, and it won't affect only the 50 seaters. I think we're only at the brink of how bad it could be. QX bears some of the blame for their current issues, but their staffing troubles could be a sign of what's ahead for everyone. Let's also not forget that a lot of these RJs are now 15-25 years old, and there's only so much justification an airline can put into heavy maintenance for such high CASM planes. OO seems to run a good operation, but they won't be able to rescue everyone just like what they are doing now with AS. Something structural has to change, whether it's 1500 hours, RJ pay, trying to push for more scope relief (unlikely to happen), or the most logical one: more mainline everywhere.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
atl100million
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:18 am

intotheair wrote:
atl100million wrote:
No one except the former ex-CO people who made the decisions could have ever believed that putting 50 seaters on major routes to/from an competitor hub made any sense.

I don't want to get into a notorious PMUA vs. PMCO debate, but I would point out that PMUA was very RJ-heavy as well. PMCO had a more restrictive scope clause, but PMUA was in pretty bad shape for most of the 2000s to the point that the mainline fleet was really slimmed down. Once they retired the 737 classics as a cost move, they had nothing but RJs to fill a lot of those smaller markets. Once they merged, the looser scope and 737NG orders helped some, but UA under Smisek still believed in shrinking to profitability as a game winning strategy. I'm not sure it really worked out all that well, to say the least.

UA also is betting on being able to staff those 50 seaters and that might become more and more difficult to do by the time 5 years is up

I think this is a going to become an even more serious concern for all airlines. It won't affect only be UA, and it won't affect only the 50 seaters. I think we're only at the brink of how bad it could be. QX bears some of the blame for their current issues, but their staffing troubles could be a sign of what's ahead for everyone. Let's also not forget that a lot of these RJs are now 15-25 years old, and there's only so much justification an airline can put into heavy maintenance for such high CASM planes. OO seems to run a good operation, but they won't be able to rescue everyone just like what they are doing now with AS. Something structural has to change, whether it's 1500 hours, RJ pay, trying to push for more scope relief (unlikely to happen), or the most logical one: more mainline everywhere.


With all due respect, DL is the only carrier that appears to truly believe in the last piece of logic you posted. Everyone else is just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
 
leoben
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:24 am

STJ wrote:

As showing respect I will say that 9E in ATL didn't get a lot of it when they (EV) were taking our 900's from us. There were some that did but there were more that were clearly gloating, so I think there is a bit of Karma happening.


Probably worth remembering that when 9E made that initial money losing CPA with Delta (pre-merger) and got those first 900s and opened the ATL base, they were taking the flying from EV. And as a result EV FURLOUGED while there was most definitely gloating at 9E. So after 9E asked for relief from Delta from their own poorly considered RFP and the PQ tails went to EV, many might have considered that karma.......


To the bigger point, there are pilots and others at EV who have never done anything but Delta for their entire careers (some of them over 30 years). This is a real poke in the eye to folks who gave their entire professional lives to moving Delta passengers in the best way possible given the tools they were provided.
 
MLIAA
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:17 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but ASQ has 33 CRJ-700s now. 8 of those are for AA, 12 more are going to AA, 3 to EDV, what about the other 10?
A319 A320 A321 A332 B712 B722 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B763 B764 B772 B788 MD80 S340 E140 E145 E170 E175 CRJ2 CRJ7 CRJ9
 
n7371f
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:21 am

caflyboy wrote:
Just a thought...could some of the 700s be transferred to OO for additional AS flying used to cover the 70 seat gap in the QX scheduling situation? Not sur how much slack there is in 70 seaters at OO for the additional lift, but seems like this could be a solution to keep them flying?

Also, could DL use Republic for the missing 70 seat lift since they now own a part of Republic, and Republic is cleared to get more Ejets?


No. OO has several CR7's that were in temporary storage in TUS recently removed from the AS operation (aircraft owned or subleased by Alaska Air Group) and those are being readied for return to service.
 
eugdjinn
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:27 pm

MLIAA wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but ASQ has 33 CRJ-700s now. 8 of those are for AA, 12 more are going to AA, 3 to EDV, what about the other 10?


No, 8 of those will join the existing AA CPA in DFW during 2Q18 which runs through 2Q19. 3 will return with the 900s to Delta via EDV.

That leaves ExpressJet/ASA with 22 available to shop to AA or UA or ?? for a new CPA. There are already 12 in service on the AA CPA in DFW. Those are unaffected by this news, and reportedly, AA has been quite happy with the work of the EV team in DFW.

One further possibility for covering the AA gap in lift created by Air Wisconsin could be for Envoy to hand off its 700s rapidly to ExpressJet as they free crews up from DL 900s, allowing them to transition to either 145s reactivated from San Angelo, or new 175s from the factory, and ease the pressure on PSA. Clearly, we now have a player with not only the crews, and the experience but the freedom to join the game.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:40 pm

atl100million wrote:
Given that most small RJs connect passengers to mainline flights at hubs, if DL operates fewer small RJs, they will be able to offer a better product and do it a lower CASM.


Dude, please study the concept of price elasticity of demand (as taught in introductory econ courses everywhere) if you want to argue economics.

Lower CASM of bigger RJs vs. 50 seaters (or even smaller props) isn't going to matter on some airport pairs -- they won't be able to fill the extra seats of a CR9/E75 at anything approaching decent fares. Business demand isn't going to jump 50%. As the small RJ/prop counts drop, routes will be dropped and cities will be dropped. There will be some airports that lose service entirely. Look at Delta's total destination count drop from 2009 as it dropped NW's Saabs and about 350 CR2/E145 (even as it has built LAX and SEA hubs). The same thing is happening with AA and UA -- they just got started a few years later.

An example: About 30 years ago IPT (Williamsport, PA) was served by USAir with five or six daily flights each to PIT and PHL, plus (briefly) UA to IAD 2 or 3x. All of those aircraft were 19-33 seats, IIRC. Yesterday the totality of scheduled commercial air passenger service was two AA (Piedmont) DHC-8s to PHL, a type with 33 seats that AA plans to retire. IMHO, E75s and CR9s will not go to IPT. I'm not confident E145s will, either, and even they have a shelf life. IPT travelers will likely drive 75 mins to State College (~12 daily flights), 90 minutes to Wilkes-Barre (~20 daily flights) or 2 hours to Harrisburg (~35 daily flights). Or they won't fly at all. That's what upgauging is going to mean for some markets -- there won't be enough people willing to pay higher fares to support higher pilot wages and buy new aircraft types to sustain service to all small communities. WN never drank the RJ coolaid -- but has the much smaller domestic route network to show for it.
 
atl100million
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:56 pm

30 years ago the airline industry was likely not making money serving a lot of places that have air service. It is only within the past five years that the network carriers have figured out how to be consistently profitable.

Commercial air service is run by for-profit companies. Airlines are not utilities. The EAS program exists for cities that genuinely need air service but the economics to support it don't work.

and alot of the ability to upgrade flights is a function of the hubs they feed into. A large reason why DL has been eliminating regional jets and growing its mainline fleet is because they closed two hubs after the DL-NW merger which increased the amount of traffic they can push over their remaining hubs. RJs now fly far more local passengers from DL's east and west coast hubs than they do connecting passengers through DL's interior US hubs (ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC).

DL serves 149 cities in the US with mainline jets compared to 98 or 99 for AA and UA (I can't remember which one is one higher than the other)

If AA and UA can't reduce the number of regional jets because some markets will lose service while DL can continue to serve those same cities, then AA and UA will serve those cities with higher unit costs.

Given that AA and UA directly compete against each other at ORD, there are alot of cities that are served with much smaller aircraft than they could be.

IIRC, the average domestic aircraft size for AA and UA at ORD is around 105 passengers. For DL at ATL, the closest hub in size to ORD based on total passengers handled, DL's average aircraft size is about 150.
 
jbs2886
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:30 pm

atl100million wrote:
Given that AA and UA directly compete against each other at ORD, there are alot of cities that are served with much smaller aircraft than they could be.


Correct. But the only solution is one to leave. DL's mainline figures you cite are inflated due to its fortress hub in ATL, which allows DL to operate an unusually high number of mainline flights. The next closest is AA at DFW probably.

You also go on about needing to go to mainline and EAS. There are many cities that rely on service that wouldn't be eligible for mainline. Those cities can't fill mainline. So your solution is to run an aircraft 3x the size of what is needed because it has lower seat costs. As the previous poster stated, that doesn't work in economics. By your theory, every airline should run A380s everywhere. You just don't understand economics clearly.
 
atl100million
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:54 pm

If one airline can serve a city more cost-effectively than others because of more efficient aircraft, the obvious answer is that not all of the service many not be sustainable.

There are many efficient small aircraft. For small cities, the difference between 50 and 76 seaters can make an enormous difference in costs. If some airlines can't make the shift to large RJs in some cities and be profitable, the chances are fairly high that other airlines can. There aren't many cities that are only served by 50 seaters and by multiple airlines although I'm sure there will be people who will try to find a handful of those exceptions. Most cities have larger aircraft or do not have multiple carriers.
 
WesternA318
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:32 pm

kabq737 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
I'm happy, 9E is a much better operation than EV and the employees are better as well.

This isn't what the industry is about. When people lose jobs we don't cheer even if the jobs are going to new places. We're all pilots, mechanics, ground staff, managers, etc. regardless of our airline. We don't celebrate lost jobs or insult fellow airline staff. Please show some respect.



To hell with that. If the airline makes money, that's ALL that should matter.
 
strfyr51
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:31 pm

kabq737 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
I'm happy, 9E is a much better operation than EV and the employees are better as well.

This isn't what the industry is about. When people lose jobs we don't cheer even if the jobs are going to new places.
We're all pilots, mechanics, ground staff, managers, etc. regardless of our airline.
We don't celebrate lost jobs or insult fellow airline staff. Please show some respect.



HEAR HEAR ! Many of us working in the Majors started at the Regionals.
I started at Golden Gate airlines in California and I'll be retiring from United in a few months
A lot of these people might have to uproot and move causing trauma to their families. My moving and working midnights caused my OWN Divorce!
I make real good money now but it wasn't always so.. And Money stress causes friction. along with Upheaval..
working in the airlines is NOT for the faint hearted.. I wish them the Best but the majors are paying damn well and they'll be sucking up people
left right and center. This will make it even harder for the regionals to keep people.
 
kabq737
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:29 am

WesternA318 wrote:
kabq737 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
I'm happy, 9E is a much better operation than EV and the employees are better as well.

This isn't what the industry is about. When people lose jobs we don't cheer even if the jobs are going to new places. We're all pilots, mechanics, ground staff, managers, etc. regardless of our airline. We don't celebrate lost jobs or insult fellow airline staff. Please show some respect.



To hell with that. If the airline makes money, that's ALL that should matter.

I hope that's sarcasm...
Been on: 320, 321, 333, 733, 73G, 738, 739, 744, 752, 763, 764, 772, 789, C208, CR7, CR9, BE20, MD83, MD88, MD90, E70, E75, E90, TRIM
Flown: SEEKER, C150M C172N, C172R, C172S, C182RG, DA40, PA-46
 
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enilria
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:43 am

Varsity1 wrote:
ScottB wrote:
enilria wrote:
What is driving this change? Endeavor has lower rates? OO is going to be overrun with people recruiting their pilots.


It doesn't really matter if Endeavor's "rates" are formally lower since DL owns the carrier. The bigger question is whether 9E can operate the flying for less than DL was giving EV (or less than EV would have been willing to accept in future) to do it.

jbs2886 wrote:
Do the 14 CR2s stay at ExpressJet for DL?


SkyWest's 2016 10-K filing stated the following with respect to ExpressJet:

We also anticipate that ExpressJet will transition to flying primarily dual-class aircraft in its CRJ aircraft operation by removing its CRJ200 aircraft from service over the next year.


So it would seem that the last remnants of ASA will soon be gone.


9E doesn't have to turn a profit, which helps significantly. They just have to cost less than delta was paying the contractor.

Yes and no. Wall Street holds DL strictly to a high revenue margin. If 9E loses money it significantly impacts negatively DL margins. Conversely, if Delta is expected to turn in margins of 15% and OO is expected to make 5%, it is better for DL to use OO if they are happy to work for a 5% margin. So, it is more complicated than just keeping profits in-house because unless those profits come with the accompanying profit margin it is just dead weight for DL as a stock.
 
Varsity1
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:24 am

enilria wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
ScottB wrote:

It doesn't really matter if Endeavor's "rates" are formally lower since DL owns the carrier. The bigger question is whether 9E can operate the flying for less than DL was giving EV (or less than EV would have been willing to accept in future) to do it.



SkyWest's 2016 10-K filing stated the following with respect to ExpressJet:



So it would seem that the last remnants of ASA will soon be gone.


9E doesn't have to turn a profit, which helps significantly. They just have to cost less than delta was paying the contractor.

Yes and no. Wall Street holds DL strictly to a high revenue margin. If 9E loses money it significantly impacts negatively DL margins. Conversely, if Delta is expected to turn in margins of 15% and OO is expected to make 5%, it is better for DL to use OO if they are happy to work for a 5% margin. So, it is more complicated than just keeping profits in-house because unless those profits come with the accompanying profit margin it is just dead weight for DL as a stock.


Still easier to maintain one margin than two. If the contract carrier is maintaining a 5% margin DL needs a net 20% to maintain their 15% hurdle rate.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:31 am

jfern022 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Go easy on him, and hear me out.

I think this is to resolve Expressjets staffing issues on the UA side. The total draw down of the Delta flying means 2 things: 1) those crews will do United flying now, resolving the staff shortage or 2) if they don't want to do that, they can go mainline Delta or anywhere else with the shortage starting. I know of the Expressjet staffing issues because my brother is an FA for them and my mother knows a good bit of Captains on a personal level having previously worked with them.

And the extension of 50 seat flying to 2022 means smaller markets can be/will continued to be served. With the focus shifting to domestic expansion, this is a great move all -around.


:thumbsup: :thumbsup:


Your original comment still shows that you are an @$$hole for saying that. 9E is only a better carrier because they have DL's pocketbook. Nothing more than being a rich kid who can have everything they want. I know a lot of people at 9E from the Pinnacle days and back then they were terrible and had a terrible attitude to boot. Now that Daddy DL is taking care of them, the aura of they don't stink is disturbing to say the least.


Over half of the company at 9E have been hired post merger of 9E, 9L and XJ. To imply that its the same people (or even management) from the original pinnacle days, is out of line.
From my cold, dead hands
 
strfyr51
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:30 am

That's a LOT of speculation about what UA will do in as much as None of you have any Idea as to what you're talking about.. United more than likely will NOT buy the E190 or E195. so getting more E175's beyond the number we have now won't fly. We're stil getting A319's from China Southern. Adding an extra fleet type would be ludicrous with the coming of the new B737-9's and -10's There might be some relief coming with the new pilot contract in a few years but I wouldn't bet any money on it right now..
 
atl100million
Posts: 445
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:09 am

Varsity1 wrote:
enilria wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

9E doesn't have to turn a profit, which helps significantly. They just have to cost less than delta was paying the contractor.

Yes and no. Wall Street holds DL strictly to a high revenue margin. If 9E loses money it significantly impacts negatively DL margins. Conversely, if Delta is expected to turn in margins of 15% and OO is expected to make 5%, it is better for DL to use OO if they are happy to work for a 5% margin. So, it is more complicated than just keeping profits in-house because unless those profits come with the accompanying profit margin it is just dead weight for DL as a stock.


Still easier to maintain one margin than two. If the contract carrier is maintaining a 5% margin DL needs a net 20% to maintain their 15% hurdle rate.

based on what DL has said about the termination of the agreement, they were motivated as much by the quality of service that ExpressJet has provided. They have used the same reason for previous RJ partner changes and also has given other carriers flexibility to make significant changes to their structure in order to improve their performance, I suspect the reason is very much about DL's desire to have its regional carrier partners delivering as close to the level of DL's operations as possible.

The fact that DL is reducing its regional carrier footprint makes their ability to enforce their standards even easier for them in the sense of being able to "thin the herd" but also hard for whatever carrier happens to be the weakest link.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:14 am

Tough news for those at EV. It's all about low cost. Keep playing regionals against each other and keep outsourcing to the lowest bidder. Right now 9E is the cheaper ticket, but you can bet down the road it will sold off to the lowest bidder and removed as a subsidiary. Never ending cycle.
 
commavia
Topic Author
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:25 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Tough news for those at EV. It's all about low cost. Keep playing regionals against each other and keep outsourcing to the lowest bidder. Right now 9E is the cheaper ticket, but you can bet down the road it will sold off to the lowest bidder and removed as a subsidiary. Never ending cycle.


I get that sentiment, and agree with it to an extent, but I think the tide is turning in terms of how AA, Delta and United are approaching their regional capacity. It seems like the emphasis is slowly but surely shifting from "low cost" to "high value" - and those aren't the same thing. Just like what has happened at the mainline carriers, the confluence of scale economies, rising labor costs and lower fuel costs has created a scenario where operational reliability, service quality and profit efficiency are becoming greater areas of focus. And this is starting to manifest in the way those mainline carriers are managing not only their own flying, but also their regional feed. I think we see it in the operational controls Delta has pushed down to Endeavor (and its rumored desire to exercise greater control/influence at no-longer-wholly-owned Compass), AA's using flow to build an effective B-scale at its wholly-owned and provide a talent pipeline for mainline, etc.

Beyond all that, part of this is also just the natural evolution of consolidation - either through mergers or (effective) liquidations - at the regionals to mirror what has happened to their customer base (the mainline airlines). In that sense, I think we can view Comair as probably the opening salvo in regional consolidation in the same way that many today view USAirways-America West as the beginning of this latest wave of U.S. network consolidation. There are fewer U.S. network airlines, and for a variety of reasons including - again - scale economies, rising labor costs and lower fuel costs, they just don't need as many regional feeders.

It is, ultimately, all about cost - but not really, at least not "all." We have started to see mainline carriers sacrifice somewhat on cost with their regional feed if it supports other, broader, strategic aims related to things like overall network reliability, pilot staffing, etc.
 
atl100million
Posts: 445
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:36 pm

The differences between AA, DL and UA are simply that AA and DL are cutting 50 seat flying but DL is not adding other large regional aircraft while AA is at a far faster rate than they are removing 50 seaters. UA, in contrast, is actually offering more 50 seat flying than they were 2 years ago and that additional 50 seat capacity is far in excess of adding a couple small cities.

DL continues to lead the industry in shifting capacity from its regional carriers to mainline while AA and UA are simply using different strategies of growing regional capacity. In AA's case, mainline domestic capacity is down while AA's mainline growth is coming in international markets. In contrast, DL and UA have a slow-growth strategy for international capacity while growing domestic capacity.

Each one of those different network strategies has implications for mainline-regional carrier relationships and future prospects but DL is doing the most to reduce its regional carrier network in favor of more mainline flying.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3219
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:41 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Tough news for those at EV. It's all about low cost. Keep playing regionals against each other and keep outsourcing to the lowest bidder. Right now 9E is the cheaper ticket, but you can bet down the road it will sold off to the lowest bidder and removed as a subsidiary. Never ending cycle.


See that's where I think your wrong. The market has changed significantly since Delta did the hatchet job on Comair and dumped Compass to TSH. Those moves both happened with thousands of excess pilots on the streets, which isn't the case today and not likely to happen again. Even if Delta ends up paying more for 9E feed than OO/YX, they directly control it and can change things on a moments notice. Especially as Delta moves towards caring more about performance than cost primarily at DCI
From my cold, dead hands
 
User avatar
william
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:56 pm

All of these abbreviations are making my head hurt. When I fly into ATL and I see a bunch of RJs at Concourse D, what regional is that?

Sad to read about ASA being a shell of itself. Back in the EMB120 days, they were a force to be reckoned with.
 
leoben
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 1:36 pm

Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:10 pm

william wrote:
All of these abbreviations are making my head hurt. When I fly into ATL and I see a bunch of RJs at Concourse D, what regional is that?

Sad to read about ASA being a shell of itself. Back in the EMB120 days, they were a force to be reckoned with.


Hard to say anymore. But if it is a Canadair, it is either ASA, Endeavor or Skywest. In another couple months, it will be one of the latter 2.
Used to be, you could tell by the tail #s - EV/AS for ASA, XJ/PQ for Endeavor(Pinna-col-aba), SW for Skywest, CA for Comair, BR for ACA, etc. - but there has been so much cross-cannibalization of fleets that wont work anymore. If you look close, up under the pilots side windows, you can see a small logotype with the operating carrier.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:16 pm

commavia wrote:
I get that sentiment, and agree with it to an extent, but I think the tide is turning in terms of how AA, Delta and United are approaching their regional capacity. It seems like the emphasis is slowly but surely shifting from "low cost" to "high value" - and those aren't the same thing. Just like what has happened at the mainline carriers, the confluence of scale economies, rising labor costs and lower fuel costs has created a scenario where operational reliability, service quality and profit efficiency are becoming greater areas of focus. And this is starting to manifest in the way those mainline carriers are managing not only their own flying, but also their regional feed. I think we see it in the operational controls Delta has pushed down to Endeavor (and its rumored desire to exercise greater control/influence at no-longer-wholly-owned Compass), AA's using flow to build an effective B-scale at its wholly-owned and provide a talent pipeline for mainline, etc.

Beyond all that, part of this is also just the natural evolution of consolidation - either through mergers or (effective) liquidations - at the regionals to mirror what has happened to their customer base (the mainline airlines). In that sense, I think we can view Comair as probably the opening salvo in regional consolidation in the same way that many today view USAirways-America West as the beginning of this latest wave of U.S. network consolidation. There are fewer U.S. network airlines, and for a variety of reasons including - again - scale economies, rising labor costs and lower fuel costs, they just don't need as many regional feeders.

It is, ultimately, all about cost - but not really, at least not "all." We have started to see mainline carriers sacrifice somewhat on cost with their regional feed if it supports other, broader, strategic aims related to things like overall network reliability, pilot staffing, etc.


DL specifically stated that EV's costs were higher, and that was one of two reasons listed for the change. Of course the first reason given is always "performance", but we know that's a product of the tools given. It's really all about costs. That's what drives regional value.

DiamondFlyer wrote:
See that's where I think your wrong. The market has changed significantly since Delta did the hatchet job on Comair and dumped Compass to TSH. Those moves both happened with thousands of excess pilots on the streets, which isn't the case today and not likely to happen again. Even if Delta ends up paying more for 9E feed than OO/YX, they directly control it and can change things on a moments notice. Especially as Delta moves towards caring more about performance than cost primarily at DCI


You don't think that will happen again? Of course it will. The profession is looking up again, and the new pilot feed will keep increasing. Eventually it will cycle back around. And besides, just because you're wholly-owned doesn't mean you will get the pilots you need. You still have to pay up, which reduces the attractiveness to the legacy of that regional.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3219
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:04 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
commavia wrote:
I get that sentiment, and agree with it to an extent, but I think the tide is turning in terms of how AA, Delta and United are approaching their regional capacity. It seems like the emphasis is slowly but surely shifting from "low cost" to "high value" - and those aren't the same thing. Just like what has happened at the mainline carriers, the confluence of scale economies, rising labor costs and lower fuel costs has created a scenario where operational reliability, service quality and profit efficiency are becoming greater areas of focus. And this is starting to manifest in the way those mainline carriers are managing not only their own flying, but also their regional feed. I think we see it in the operational controls Delta has pushed down to Endeavor (and its rumored desire to exercise greater control/influence at no-longer-wholly-owned Compass), AA's using flow to build an effective B-scale at its wholly-owned and provide a talent pipeline for mainline, etc.

Beyond all that, part of this is also just the natural evolution of consolidation - either through mergers or (effective) liquidations - at the regionals to mirror what has happened to their customer base (the mainline airlines). In that sense, I think we can view Comair as probably the opening salvo in regional consolidation in the same way that many today view USAirways-America West as the beginning of this latest wave of U.S. network consolidation. There are fewer U.S. network airlines, and for a variety of reasons including - again - scale economies, rising labor costs and lower fuel costs, they just don't need as many regional feeders.

It is, ultimately, all about cost - but not really, at least not "all." We have started to see mainline carriers sacrifice somewhat on cost with their regional feed if it supports other, broader, strategic aims related to things like overall network reliability, pilot staffing, etc.


DL specifically stated that EV's costs were higher, and that was one of two reasons listed for the change. Of course the first reason given is always "performance", but we know that's a product of the tools given. It's really all about costs. That's what drives regional value.

DiamondFlyer wrote:
See that's where I think your wrong. The market has changed significantly since Delta did the hatchet job on Comair and dumped Compass to TSH. Those moves both happened with thousands of excess pilots on the streets, which isn't the case today and not likely to happen again. Even if Delta ends up paying more for 9E feed than OO/YX, they directly control it and can change things on a moments notice. Especially as Delta moves towards caring more about performance than cost primarily at DCI


You don't think that will happen again? Of course it will. The profession is looking up again, and the new pilot feed will keep increasing. Eventually it will cycle back around. And besides, just because you're wholly-owned doesn't mean you will get the pilots you need. You still have to pay up, which reduces the attractiveness to the legacy of that regional.

No, it won't happen again. There simply aren't the number of US pilots entering training to make it happen. Every regional will be sucked dry in the next 10 years, just to staff DL/AA/UA/WN and FX/UPS. Not to mention places like F9/NK/B6/Allegiant needing pilots for the growth they want. Simply put, regionals will cease to exist because of lack of labor before they are comair'd
From my cold, dead hands
 
n6238p
Posts: 436
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:35 am

Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:39 pm

Over the past year, Skywest closed the ExpressJet MX base in DTW while keeping a a shrinking crew base open while starting up the ExpressJet LGA base. When they sent XJT there, guess what, they also did not open an MX base. So two of the four L-ASA bases did not have a maintenance base. Anything breaks, contractors took anywhere between 30-60 minutes to get to the airplanes. Aircraft that were RON in DTW/LGA often did not get scheduled checks done on time and way too many times did originating crews show up to planes in the morning that still had open write-ups from the night before. Although Skywest owned ExpressJet, anytime ExpressJet used Skywest maintenance, they charged the company. For the last few years, Skywest has shown loses on the ExpressJet side with the help of charging the airline fees for everything for maintenance to IT support. Skywest moved around L-ASA/L-XJT so it shows the mainline partners it is a failing airline. Why did GoJet and L-ASA swap between LGA and DTW? GoJet was consistently for years at the bottom of the performance for DCI but they got more airplanes and contract extensions. Makes sense right?
To actively root against anybody is just low, and I hope karma comes back at you with a vengeance
 
durangomac
Posts: 427
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:18 am

Re: SkyWest Announces ExpressJet Changes

Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:40 pm

n6238p wrote:
Although Skywest owned ExpressJet, anytime ExpressJet used Skywest maintenance, they charged the company. For the last few years, Skywest has shown loses on the ExpressJet side with the help of charging the airline fees for everything for maintenance to IT support. Skywest moved around L-ASA/L-XJT so it shows the mainline partners it is a failing airline.


While you are right that OO charged EV for services, EV also charged OO for services. I have seen the numbers and I can tell you it's not anywhere near what certain groups or people were saying. I can tell you for a fact that the IT budget was split between OO and EV depending on how much was used. If both companies used a certain part of the IT group 50/50 then each airline was charged 50/50, if one group was using 80 percent of the resource then they were charged 80 percent of the cost. There are more times that OO charged EV for services because when shared services were combined it happened to favor being on the OO side because it was more cost effective, there are shared services that EV is charging OO for. EV was loosing money because of contracts that become/were unprofitable not the money transfers between companies, if anything the scale of size of the combined company kept EV from bleeding more money.

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