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iamlucky13
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:57 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
From my days using Long Beach when it had only a little traffic, I would say that using small and minor airport is a real pleasure, so long as it is going where you want. Does anyone doubt that there will be half a dozen gates before long?


Everything has been moving slowly here due to local opposition, and it will require an updated environmental assessment. I'd say it would be 5 years minimum before any more gates could be added *after* the demand proves out, and more realistically like 10 years.

I think they can fit 4 gates total without taking out any nearby buildings. Beyond that, you either have to displace existing structures to other parts of the airport, or get more creative.

But nobody is making any plans for that kind of expansion yet. We'll have to wait and see how it does with two gates before the people with money start making serious plans.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

mtnwest1979 wrote:
Nice except for jetways on wrong side. Like the airline depicted lol.


Good catch. If I have spare time later, I'll figure out a fix for that. I'm not sure how whoever did the drawing was envisioning the jetways lining up. It was a drawing for the grading permit, so the jetway details probably didn't matter at that point.

The airline was unintentional. There was a WN 737 parked at the nearby maintenance company in the aerial images, so I didn't even have to adjust the scale to use it.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:52 pm

There's enough space to expand to 3 gates without any real changes, combine 1 gate into 2 small RJ convertible stands and leave 1 for larger airplanes. I wouldn't worry about it being a problem for a few years as airlines will need some time to figure out what works best.
 
Prost
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:56 pm

My guess is this could support 10-12,gates off the bat. Within a few years SEA is going to be short domestic gates and bussing passengers to the plane, which will add another layer of inconvenience. I think PAE could be a benefit to the region, but not with a 2 gate operation.
 
aviationjunky
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:42 pm

Since the airport layout depicts WN, do we expect them to begin service as well? Also, what is the capacity of this terminal?
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MIflyer12
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:51 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:
We'll see what the willingness of PAE patrons is to suffer higher fares (RJ are high-CASM planes), lower frequencies, and fewer destinations as the trade-offs for avoiding I-5 through Seattle.


Some of them will. I have family in one of the areas Alaska is expected to serve. I will definitely be comparison shopping.

Aside from up to an hour less time driving each way, even assuming no extra time spent at the airport, a week long trip to visit them potentially involves $150+ parking or $50+ each way for Uber.

These will not all be regional jet operations, and also keep in mind that stage-length adjusted CASM differences are smaller than systemwide average CASM differences.


You make my point for me. You're discussing long-duration (where SEA parking $ is a factor) leisure trips that you comparison shop, not people spending OPM and a high value on their time to make a day trip to the Bay Area. Allegiant can build a business model around leisure travelers - AS, US and DL can't, not with RJ ops.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:07 pm

aviationjunky wrote:
Since the airport layout depicts WN, do we expect them to begin service as well? Also, what is the capacity of this terminal?


To be clear, the airport layout shown up thread is my work derived from official documents, not a graphic from an official source. WN aircraft air shown because they were the most readily available for me to edit in.
 
wedgetail737
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:20 pm

I'm surprised there will be jetways for such a small airport.
 
Bald1983
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:23 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
I recently had a chance last month to visit PAE and do the Boeing tour. I never saw any Alaska aircraft coming or departing in the three-four hours I was there. Furthermore, looking at this Google earth shot I can't even see what would be used as a commercial airline terminal. Where do AS and soon to be UA park their aircraft for passenger services?

https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb ... oioIhAEwCg


I believe a terminal is being built.
 
Bald1983
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:27 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
http://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/united-airlines-will-offer-flights-from-everetts-paine-field/

Here is the Seattle Times article. This should not be considered unexpected once Alaska announced service. My suspicions are that all the major airlines are going to want a presence in Everett. Expect upwards of a dozen or two flights per each of the majors. Traffic congestion will be relieved in another ten years by the light rail system, but keep in mind that there will not be an express system. Every train is a local.


I doubt that the light rail will put any serious dent in roadway congestion.
 
ual722
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:28 pm

jetblastdubai wrote:

Could DPA be on UA's radar for this type of alternative service as well?


Why? DPA isn't that far at all from ORD. I could see them going back to MDW on a E175 before I see them going to DPA.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:34 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:
We'll see what the willingness of PAE patrons is to suffer higher fares (RJ are high-CASM planes), lower frequencies, and fewer destinations as the trade-offs for avoiding I-5 through Seattle.


Some of them will. I have family in one of the areas Alaska is expected to serve. I will definitely be comparison shopping.

Aside from up to an hour less time driving each way, even assuming no extra time spent at the airport, a week long trip to visit them potentially involves $150+ parking or $50+ each way for Uber.

These will not all be regional jet operations, and also keep in mind that stage-length adjusted CASM differences are smaller than systemwide average CASM differences.


You make my point for me. You're discussing long-duration (where SEA parking $ is a factor) leisure trips that you comparison shop, not people spending OPM and a high value on their time to make a day trip to the Bay Area. Allegiant can build a business model around leisure travelers - AS, US and DL can't, not with RJ ops.


I don't see how. You reference a high value on time, then dismiss the value of saving time. You make a value argument in general with reference to fares, then dismiss the value of $30 per day parking.

Yes, I understand schedule options due to flight frequency have a time value, too, but it's not always available if the most favorable times are booked up at the time you plan a trip. I have no doubt the first time slots Alaska and United both fill at PAE will be those most appealing to their business travelers. And it's not like it's easy to add peak-time capacity at SEA right now anyways.

Based on a prior Alaska claim, there's ~10 million passengers per year traveling to or from locations closer to PAE than SEA. The announced PAE flights will have an annual capacity of around 500,000 passengers. Those flights could be the wrong choice for 95% of those passengers and yet still be consistently full.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:34 pm

Bald1983 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
http://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/united-airlines-will-offer-flights-from-everetts-paine-field/

Here is the Seattle Times article. This should not be considered unexpected once Alaska announced service. My suspicions are that all the major airlines are going to want a presence in Everett. Expect upwards of a dozen or two flights per each of the majors. Traffic congestion will be relieved in another ten years by the light rail system, but keep in mind that there will not be an express system. Every train is a local.


I doubt that the light rail will put any serious dent in roadway congestion.


Sound Transit agrees. Their projections are that light rail helps keep things less worse.
 
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Jamake1
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:36 pm

My bets are on Southwest being next to announce PAE service...
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Bald1983
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:36 pm

TransWorldOne wrote:
Something tells me PAE is going to need a bigger terminal. Only two gates seems very, very conservative. With two gates, the terminal will be roughly the size of St. Louis area Mid America airport (BLV) but it is already forecasted to have several more flights.


My very uninformed guess: It will be like putting one's toe in. Then a bit more and a bit more. One of the issues is a very strong NIMBY lobby. There was a time, before the third runway was decided upon for SEA TAC, several sites were checked out, including Paine Field and everyone screamed bloody murder. The change is traffic is becoming much more intolerable in the Seattle area and that includes Everett. Seattle really does not have room to grow without building an artificial plateau on the west end of the field for a fourth runway, if that was ever needed. A new airport is needed and Paine Field would fit the bill, giv3ne it already has a lot of jet traffic.
 
BA
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:47 pm

Here's what the terminal will look like:

Image

Image
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
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intotheair
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:16 am

Interesting how UA didn't announce equipment either. My guess is they end up using RJs. Wouldn't even put it past them to put yet another CR2 on PAE-DEN.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
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khunpaul3
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:17 am

I live 10 mins from my home. It is nice to have flights out of PAE. Driving to SEA is horrible congestion on between downtown and off
 
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qf789
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:18 am

717atOGG wrote:
May I suggest that this would be moved to the Washington state air service discussion, located here. I'm going to let the mods have the last word on this, just throwing it out.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1369725&p=19736177#p19736177


This topic warrants it's own thread. Not everyone reads country or state threads and therefore would miss the discussion and then it would be likely that a thread like this would start on it's own anyway.
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jco613
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:05 am

to all of those posting about United's "return" - from the Everett newspaper:
Offering flights from Paine Field also would mark a homecoming of sorts. In 1939 United operated the first commercial flight at Paine Field, the company said. That was just three years after the airport was built under the Depression-era Work Progress Administration program.


Jamake1 wrote:
My bets are on Southwest being next to announce PAE service...

I can't think of one domestic city that Southwest does not have it's own dedicated gate...maybe I'm wrong. I just don't see this in their wheelhouse

globalcabotage wrote:
And NK announces 10x daily to DTW!

and G4 announces 10X weekly to LAS...but only on Tuesday and random Friday's

jetmatt777 wrote:
There's enough space to expand to 3 gates without any real changes, combine 1 gate into 2 small RJ convertible stands and leave 1 for larger airplanes. I wouldn't worry about it being a problem for a few years as airlines will need some time to figure out what works best.

Agreed...and let's be honest, if it is mostly RJ and a few 737s, you CAN turn those around at a small airport in 45 min-1 hour... if you have flights going from 5am on, you can easily do a dozen out of one gate.

I think both UA and AS have to have AT LEAST on 737 rotation in there, just to play nice with Boeing.

TransWorldOne wrote:
Something tells me PAE is going to need a bigger terminal. Only two gates seems very, very conservative. With two gates, the terminal will be roughly the size of St. Louis area Mid America airport (BLV) but it is already forecasted to have several more flights.

So with that logic, PAE is going to have 2 flights?

I also could see AA and/or DL adding service...but token service, maybe a red eye to DFW and ATL, respectively. (If only because that's the only time there will be space)

And, by the way, anyone who doubts PAE's viability, take a quick look at HPN.
 
Dominion301
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:11 am

dc10lover wrote:
Oh, and in a way I have too laugh. Not too many airports are already filled to capacity even before it opens. (Expected). And I expect Southwest to come in and only add flights to California - not eastbound. This will help Southwest build their West Coast Service.


Oh I can think of another-BER :stirthepot:
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:17 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
http://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/united-airlines-will-offer-flights-from-everetts-paine-field/

Here is the Seattle Times article. This should not be considered unexpected once Alaska announced service. My suspicions are that all the major airlines are going to want a presence in Everett. Expect upwards of a dozen or two flights per each of the majors. Traffic congestion will be relieved in another ten years by the light rail system, but keep in mind that there will not be an express system. Every train is a local.


I doubt that anyone will have 12-24 flights per day there. I dont see that yields will be very good


With the tight capacity and local pressure to not increase flights, I bet yields will be very good. What will lack is the volume.


The only way you get good yields with low volume is if there is very high yield demand from business travelers who book at the last minute. No way that traffic exists in PAE especially for the inbound.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:34 am

Bobloblaw wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:

I doubt that anyone will have 12-24 flights per day there. I dont see that yields will be very good


With the tight capacity and local pressure to not increase flights, I bet yields will be very good. What will lack is the volume.


The only way you get good yields with low volume is if there is very high yield demand from business travelers who book at the last minute. No way that traffic exists in PAE especially for the inbound.


That's not always the case. Many small markets have greater unit yields than your huge leisure markets with 10 daily frequencies. The majors can make good money in small markets on high yields with low volume, and a lot of money on low yield trunk route s with high volume. Why do you think airlines fly to these small cities? It's not to add unprofitable low volume feed. It's to add high yield traffic into the system, even if it is low volume.
 
BA
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:38 am

Bobloblaw wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
The only way you get good yields with low volume is if there is very high yield demand from business travelers who book at the last minute. No way that traffic exists in PAE especially for the inbound.


There is a particular large aerospace company nearby that generates a substantial amount of last minute business travel...
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
727200
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:59 am

Now I am not in 'Strategic Planning," but looks to me that by starting service into PAE, UA is starting a bon fire in DL's front yard to which they will have to pull equipment and start service to new destinations in response. Those are planes that could have been used elsewhere; energies that could have been used to keep the pressure on both AA and UA; simply just a headache one doesn't need or want in a hub that is marginal at best. Smart move by UA and just the type of action that makes your opponent focus on something they sure don't want to in their own house.
 
oosnowrat
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:03 am

How are RONs allocated? Each airline get one?
 
mtnwest1979
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:04 am

khunpaul3 wrote:
I live 10 mins from my home. It is nice to have flights out of PAE. Driving to SEA is horrible congestion on between downtown and off


That's kind of odd, so you don't live in your home?? lol. ;)
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jco613
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:07 am

oosnowrat wrote:
How are RONs allocated? Each airline get one?

looking at the HPN model, they can only have 4 planes at the terminal at a time (3 gates and 3 stands...do the math). They routinely move planes from the terminal to other parts of the airport for RON...that would be a minor issue.
 
n7371f
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:16 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
DaufuskieGuy wrote:
wow the traffic on I 5 must be worse than I thought. presumably this this will be RJ service?


We'll see what the willingness of PAE patrons is to suffer higher fares (RJ are high-CASM planes), lower frequencies, and fewer destinations as the trade-offs for avoiding I-5 through Seattle.


Clearly you don't know the I-5 drive to Sea-Tac, even on weekends.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:22 am

727200 wrote:
Now I am not in 'Strategic Planning," but looks to me that by starting service into PAE, UA is starting a bon fire in DL's front yard to which they will have to pull equipment and start service to new destinations in response. Those are planes that could have been used elsewhere; energies that could have been used to keep the pressure on both AA and UA; simply just a headache one doesn't need or want in a hub that is marginal at best. Smart move by UA and just the type of action that makes your opponent focus on something they sure don't want to in their own house.


I'm inclined to disagree. Maybe Delta will respond, but they don't have to. 6 flights a day should not really be a concern for Delta, and there's no concern at all about that number growing significantly.
 
dcaviation
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:18 am

khunpaul3 wrote:
I live 10 mins from my home. It is nice to have flights out of PAE. Driving to SEA is horrible congestion on between downtown and off


I live at my home, and very happy about it :)
 
hiflyeras
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:16 pm

Prost wrote:
My guess is this could support 10-12,gates off the bat. Within a few years SEA is going to be short domestic gates and bussing passengers to the plane, which will add another layer of inconvenience. I think PAE could be a benefit to the region, but not with a 2 gate operation.


Bussing to hardstands has already begun at SEA...AS has been doing it for a couple of weeks now.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:38 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
Wow! I never expected United. It seemed to me like the Seattle area was pretty low on their radar, presumably because they did not want to bother going head to head against Delta.

But perhaps that's part of the reason for the Paine Field service, as a way to pull a little bit more traffic from Seatac to connections at UA hubs.
.


SFO is number 2 and DEN is number 4 for O/D out of SEA. There is enough O/D to support these flights most likely, plus UA can offer connections. UA may end up doing better at PAE than AS since they have O/D plus feed. AS will only have O/D on most of their routes. Often times an airline that doesn't have a hub in the alternative airport can get better yields since they can combine O/D and connections. With revenue management systems as good as they are, I think PAE could work out very well for UA. Revenue management can't make up for the AS loyalty in SEattle but UA has loyalty in DEN and SFO which can make it a bit of a wash although I would expect more outbound traffic from Washington based resident said using PAE than inbound travelers visiting Washington. Either way, I think UA is making a smart move.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:52 pm

It is worth noting that there is a giant factory with 30,000-40,000 workers at that airport including thousands of engineers, managers, etc that travel for work. There is a business client right there at the airport in the form of Boeing, so many may choose to fly from PAE and connect in DEN or SFO when traveling.
 
DaufuskieGuy
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:12 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
It is worth noting that there is a giant factory with 30,000-40,000 workers at that airport including thousands of engineers, managers, etc that travel for work. There is a business client right there at the airport in the form of Boeing, so many may choose to fly from PAE and connect in DEN or SFO when traveling.

den is a great connecting hub for nm, northern tx, ok, ks, wy, ne, sd. in particular ict must see a lot of boeing traffic
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:15 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
727200 wrote:
Now I am not in 'Strategic Planning," but looks to me that by starting service into PAE, UA is starting a bon fire in DL's front yard to which they will have to pull equipment and start service to new destinations in response. Those are planes that could have been used elsewhere; energies that could have been used to keep the pressure on both AA and UA; simply just a headache one doesn't need or want in a hub that is marginal at best. Smart move by UA and just the type of action that makes your opponent focus on something they sure don't want to in their own house.


I'm inclined to disagree. Maybe Delta will respond, but they don't have to. 6 flights a day should not really be a concern for Delta, and there's no concern at all about that number growing significantly.


Agree. Don't think this has anything to do with DL and has everything to do with AS. Also great point about the Boeing traffic out of PAE.
 
wedgetail737
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:52 pm

You all forget that the flight cap at PAE is 22 to 26 flights per day, depending on what source you believe. I don't think you'll see WN at PAE anytime soon. I'm a little surprised at UA considering they had been downsizing SEA a lot until recently. It wouldn't surprise me if G4 takes a run at it. But I think AS will be the predominate carrier at PAE.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:04 pm

wedgetail737 wrote:
You all forget that the flight cap at PAE is 22 to 26 flights per day, depending on what source you believe. I don't think you'll see WN at PAE anytime soon. I'm a little surprised at UA considering they had been downsizing SEA a lot until recently. It wouldn't surprise me if G4 takes a run at it. But I think AS will be the predominate carrier at PAE.


UA has been downsizing SEA, but they are the ones with hubs in some of the top O/D destinations for SEA. SFO and DEN have much more O/D than AA at PHX or DL at SLC. Geography is in favor of UA and they still have a decent amount of traffic to their hubs. Their frequent flyer pool in SEA has been taken over by AS and DL but given the new emphasis on basic economy that strips elite qualifications, it appears that frequent high flyer loyalty is becoming less of a factor in the industry. O/D and hubs favor UA
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:11 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
727200 wrote:
Now I am not in 'Strategic Planning," but looks to me that by starting service into PAE, UA is starting a bon fire in DL's front yard to which they will have to pull equipment and start service to new destinations in response. Those are planes that could have been used elsewhere; energies that could have been used to keep the pressure on both AA and UA; simply just a headache one doesn't need or want in a hub that is marginal at best. Smart move by UA and just the type of action that makes your opponent focus on something they sure don't want to in their own house.


I'm inclined to disagree. Maybe Delta will respond, but they don't have to. 6 flights a day should not really be a concern for Delta, and there's no concern at all about that number growing significantly.


Well where will Delta fly? LAX has good O/D and DL has a decent presence there, but they will be going up against AS most likely and have to compete on price. MSP and SLC probably don the have enough O/D, so DL will be needing connections and competing with their own hub at SEA. One stop via SLC or nonstop through SEA will be tough for them.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:21 pm

Snohomish county wants federal subsidies for its airport. That limit of 22-26 (commercial?) flights a day will be increased. There are hours of operations limits which have a better chance of remaining, but even those can be changed as airplanes get quieter.
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seat1a
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:29 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
Wow! I never expected United. It seemed to me like the Seattle area was pretty low on their radar, presumably because they did not want to bother going head to head against Delta.

But perhaps that's part of the reason for the Paine Field service, as a way to pull a little bit more traffic from Seatac to connections at UA hubs.
.


SFO is number 2 and DEN is number 4 for O/D out of SEA. There is enough O/D to support these flights most likely, plus UA can offer connections. UA may end up doing better at PAE than AS since they have O/D plus feed. AS will only have O/D on most of their routes. Often times an airline that doesn't have a hub in the alternative airport can get better yields since they can combine O/D and connections. With revenue management systems as good as they are, I think PAE could work out very well for UA. Revenue management can't make up for the AS loyalty in SEattle but UA has loyalty in DEN and SFO which can make it a bit of a wash although I would expect more outbound traffic from Washington based resident said using PAE than inbound travelers visiting Washington. Either way, I think UA is making a smart move.


Good point. Where do you get the O/D information for SEA? Would you know what the top 10 O/D destinations are for SEA? Thanks.
 
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Revelation
Posts: 24816
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:06 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
Everything has been moving slowly here due to local opposition, and it will require an updated environmental assessment.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Snohomish county wants federal subsidies for its airport. That limit of 22-26 (commercial?) flights a day will be increased. There are hours of operations limits which have a better chance of remaining, but even those can be changed as airplanes get quieter.

It seems the NIMBYs didn't notice the HUUUUUGE airplane factory at KPAE...
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FATFlyer
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:45 pm

wedgetail737 wrote:
You all forget that the flight cap at PAE is 22 to 26 flights per day, depending on what source you believe. I don't think you'll see WN at PAE anytime soon. I'm a little surprised at UA considering they had been downsizing SEA a lot until recently. It wouldn't surprise me if G4 takes a run at it. But I think AS will be the predominate carrier at PAE.

My understanding from this article is PAE has no flight cap.

Contrary to assertions by one local elected official, the new passenger service coming to Paine Field in Everett next year will not have restrictions on the number of daily flights aside from the physical limitations of the airport.

And nighttime flights will be allowed, though airlines are asked to voluntarily limit those.

Mukilteo Mayor Jennifer Gregerson, who has opposed bringing passenger service to Paine Field largely due to concern about increased noise over residential areas, told The Seattle Times in May that airport developer Propeller has agreed to limit the number of commercial flights to a maximum of 22 per day and to restrict commercial air operations to the hours from 7 a.m. to 6 p.m.

On Thursday, Gregerson conceded she was mistaken — there is no such agreement with Propeller.

More at:
http://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/paine-field-passenger-flights-not-restricted-by-agreement/
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clrd4t8koff
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:49 pm

rwsea wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
rwsea wrote:

Perhaps you should read the article....


Perhaps you should re-read the article. Please show me where in there it says where the airline terminal is or where they park?

Don't be such a tool and try adding some actual value if you wish to comment on posts.


You made a point of saying that you never saw any AS aircraft in a 3-4 hour window and that you don't see a terminal on google maps. The article clearly states that the terminal is under construction and that commercial service won't start until 2018. Had you bothered to simply read the article, the answers to your questions would be obvious.

I knew A.net has been going downhill for years, but posts like this really illustrate how bad it's gotten...


Are you really going to keep arguing this? Here is the full article:

"United Airlines is returning to Paine Field, in Everett.

The airline hopes to make traveling more convenient for people who usually travel out of Sea-Tac by offering daily flights to Denver (DEN) and San Francisco (SFO).

“Bringing new service to Paine Field offers customers more ways to conveniently connect to the country’s largest business and leisure destinations,” says Dave Hilfman, United’s senior vice president. “We know our customers value time and convenience when traveling and north Seattle and Northwest Washington area travelers will now have easy access to our hubs in Denver and San Francisco and to opportunities to connect to business centers around the world with just one stop.”

United will operate six daily flights connecting to more than 120 destinations.

“United and Paine will give Northwest Washington travelers much-needed options,” says Brett Smith, CEO of Propeller Airports. “Offering service at Paine Field continues United’s decades-long economic partnership with Snohomish County, deepening their commitment to creating jobs locally and generating revenue for our communities.”

United flights out of Paine Field will begin in the fall of next year"


Please highlight where in the article is says ANYTHING about the terminal being under construction?!?! The reason this site is going downhill is because of boneheaded posts like yours!
 
Confuscius
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:09 pm

Maybe United could use 787 delivery flights for passenger service too.
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smithbs
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:16 pm

Revelation wrote:
It seems the NIMBYs didn't notice the HUUUUUGE airplane factory at KPAE...


I don't get their opposition to commercial flights. They've only had to put up with EVERY 747, 767 & 777 EVER BUILT thus far - and the 747 was doing it before about 99% of them lived there. To gripe so much about a couple 737s and RJs doesn't make sense. There is a bit more valid argument to traffic, but that applies everywhere in the region and still pales in comparison to the Boeing shift traffic.
 
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ssteve
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:16 pm

Confuscius wrote:
Maybe United could use 787 delivery flights for passenger service too.


Ha!

Every once in awhile PAE-DEN turns out to have MANY empty seats, and everyone on the upgrade list is happy.
 
USAIRWAYS321
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:03 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
rwsea wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:

Perhaps you should re-read the article. Please show me where in there it says where the airline terminal is or where they park?

Don't be such a tool and try adding some actual value if you wish to comment on posts.


You made a point of saying that you never saw any AS aircraft in a 3-4 hour window and that you don't see a terminal on google maps. The article clearly states that the terminal is under construction and that commercial service won't start until 2018. Had you bothered to simply read the article, the answers to your questions would be obvious.

I knew A.net has been going downhill for years, but posts like this really illustrate how bad it's gotten...


Are you really going to keep arguing this? Here is the full article:

"United Airlines is returning to Paine Field, in Everett.

The airline hopes to make traveling more convenient for people who usually travel out of Sea-Tac by offering daily flights to Denver (DEN) and San Francisco (SFO).

“Bringing new service to Paine Field offers customers more ways to conveniently connect to the country’s largest business and leisure destinations,” says Dave Hilfman, United’s senior vice president. “We know our customers value time and convenience when traveling and north Seattle and Northwest Washington area travelers will now have easy access to our hubs in Denver and San Francisco and to opportunities to connect to business centers around the world with just one stop.”

United will operate six daily flights connecting to more than 120 destinations.

“United and Paine will give Northwest Washington travelers much-needed options,” says Brett Smith, CEO of Propeller Airports. “Offering service at Paine Field continues United’s decades-long economic partnership with Snohomish County, deepening their commitment to creating jobs locally and generating revenue for our communities.”

United flights out of Paine Field will begin in the fall of next year"


Please highlight where in the article is says ANYTHING about the terminal being under construction?!?! The reason this site is going downhill is because of boneheaded posts like yours!


Is this clear enough for you?

http://www.heraldnet.com/news/united-airlines-to-serve-everett-in-2018-joining-alaska/

"United, which carried some 143 million passengers to 50 countries in 2016, on Thursday morning announced that it will become the second major airline to offer passenger flights from a two-gate terminal now under construction at the Snohomish County-owned airport."
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:09 pm

USAIRWAYS321 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
rwsea wrote:

You made a point of saying that you never saw any AS aircraft in a 3-4 hour window and that you don't see a terminal on google maps. The article clearly states that the terminal is under construction and that commercial service won't start until 2018. Had you bothered to simply read the article, the answers to your questions would be obvious.

I knew A.net has been going downhill for years, but posts like this really illustrate how bad it's gotten...


Are you really going to keep arguing this? Here is the full article:

"United Airlines is returning to Paine Field, in Everett.

The airline hopes to make traveling more convenient for people who usually travel out of Sea-Tac by offering daily flights to Denver (DEN) and San Francisco (SFO).

“Bringing new service to Paine Field offers customers more ways to conveniently connect to the country’s largest business and leisure destinations,” says Dave Hilfman, United’s senior vice president. “We know our customers value time and convenience when traveling and north Seattle and Northwest Washington area travelers will now have easy access to our hubs in Denver and San Francisco and to opportunities to connect to business centers around the world with just one stop.”

United will operate six daily flights connecting to more than 120 destinations.

“United and Paine will give Northwest Washington travelers much-needed options,” says Brett Smith, CEO of Propeller Airports. “Offering service at Paine Field continues United’s decades-long economic partnership with Snohomish County, deepening their commitment to creating jobs locally and generating revenue for our communities.”

United flights out of Paine Field will begin in the fall of next year"


Please highlight where in the article is says ANYTHING about the terminal being under construction?!?! The reason this site is going downhill is because of boneheaded posts like yours!


Is this clear enough for you?

http://www.heraldnet.com/news/united-airlines-to-serve-everett-in-2018-joining-alaska/

"United, which carried some 143 million passengers to 50 countries in 2016, on Thursday morning announced that it will become the second major airline to offer passenger flights from a two-gate terminal now under construction at the Snohomish County-owned airport."


Sure, but that's NOT the article in the OP. How is a completely different article relevant to there being nothing in the OP article about the terminal? Is that clear enough for you?
 
iamlucky13
Posts: 1264
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Re: UA announces start of PAE-SFO and PAE-DEN

Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:00 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
It is worth noting that there is a giant factory with 30,000-40,000 workers at that airport including thousands of engineers, managers, etc that travel for work. There is a business client right there at the airport in the form of Boeing, so many may choose to fly from PAE and connect in DEN or SFO when traveling.


Good points in your other posts about UA connecting volume.

I wanted to add here that Boeing is these days just one, even if the most obvious part of the overall picture. I think Boeing suppliers in the area nearly double the figure, and a lot of them are close to PAE, too. Snohomish County in general hosts over 1/4 million jobs, and there's probably an equal number or even more in King County located closer to PAE than to SEA. A very significant number of those are software and biotech jobs, plus the regular government services, health care, and education. Also, service members and contractors at both Naval Station Everett and Whidbey NAS would drive right past PAE on their way to SEA.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Snohomish county wants federal subsidies for its airport. That limit of 22-26 (commercial?) flights a day will be increased. There are hours of operations limits which have a better chance of remaining, but even those can be changed as airplanes get quieter.


It will be fought though, and the condition on the FAA subsidies is they have to accept "reasonable" proposals for commercial air service. Expanding the environmental assessment will likely be opposed as "unreasonable."

The calculated noise contours from newer aircraft should demonstrate otherwise, especially considering the existing noise contours are well within the normal limits for existing residential areas, but advancing proposals to expand service will be slow when they get taken to court every step of the way.

Even after the current environmental assessment was accepted, challenged, and upheld, the city of Mukilteo continued to spend up $100,000 per year in taxpayer funds to fight it. It was clearly a futile case, so I assume they did so merely to delay service.

Revelation wrote:
It seems the NIMBYs didn't notice the HUUUUUGE airplane factory at KPAE...


The overwhelming volume of 1-2 additional flights per hour will completely destroy the community...or something.

There's a few folks I've discussed this with locally who do sort of grasp that the environmental assessment includes detailed technical evidence that the operations don't change the historical noise levels, nor exceed regulatory limits. They usually instead argue that the commercial air service violates the Mediated Role Determination - a non-binding nearly 40 year old agreement that sets as policy at the time that commercial air service would be discouraged.

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