heretothere
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:50 pm

Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:00 am

wnflyguy wrote:
WN reductions in FLL capacity and non stop destinations are due to the Runway closers/construction.
The FLL airport officials have already said they expect lengthy delays if airlines do not adjust Volume during the construction time frame.
As of now Spirit, Allegiant now WN have reduced some capacity and added it to other markets during the construction.
Once the Runway reopens I'm sure your will see all capacity return to WN's profitable FLL operation.
If you look at WN schedule they have more 800/8MAX aircraft vs 700's flying thru FLL during this time period. While the number of Nonstops destinations are temporary stopped the over all seat capacity is only slightly less than normal non construction capacity.

BOS is another story.
WN is strong on it's core markets.
But B6 has been doing a good job defending it's market share where WN dose not have the brand loyalty.


Flyguy


I’m not sure where you come up with this stuff but both NK and G4 are up in flights next summer at FLL. And B6 is up slightly as well. If WN reduced FLL with the idea that others would as well, they may want to reassess that strategy.
 
nine4nine
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Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:23 am

And WN is immune from post curfew operations? I was at BUR last week and there were 4 post 10pm arrivals alone. They will be paying those fines too at LGB. Just because they don’t offer transcons doesn’t mean squat. A good portion of their flights have multiple segments. If the origin city or even 2 of the 3 have delays that flights isn’t getting in till late.

My days working for WN at LAX I remember volunteering to stay overtime a few days a week to close or turn a very late flight, sometimes a handful of them. Many of which wouldn’t arrive until between 12-2am. The honeymoon will be over rather quickly with LGB once the fines start adding up.
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nine4nine
Posts: 503
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Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:33 am

janders wrote:
nine4nine wrote:

AS didn’t see these slots as valuable assets, neither did F9, NK, AA, DL, UA or anyone else for that matter. And I highly doubt WN will take all the remaining slots especially if there’s an B6 exit altogether,only to poach on a higher the yielding SNA and LAX ops. LGB is a turd. Always has always will. B6 will be the best thing that ever happened to that place and I’m sure when they are gone LGB will return to a regional destination only airport.


Well Delta certainly has been happy to pick up additional slots in recent years. There is also the new entrant Hawaiian that showed up as well.

WN to me is the natural for LGB being the biggest airline in the State with strong presence at all LA airports except LGB till now.


Delta adding another CR9 to SLC and a daily HA HNL is far from high demand of carriers kicking the doors down to gain access in this city. No matter who the airline is the city and it’s fascist nimby residents will eventually turn on them and run them out of town.

When I flew out of LGB a few days ago the inbound HA wasn’t due in until 12:35am. I’ve noticed this flights arriving well beyond curfew quite often. I don’t see how HA will be making any money on a low yielding route operated by a 321 that occasionally makes tech stop diversions at that matter all while accumulating steep curfew violation fees.
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ScottB
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Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:29 am

nine4nine wrote:
Oh yes. Because the other airlines have been foaming at the mouth and clamoring over eachother to grab any available LGB slots for years. NOT.


You're right that the supply of slots at LGB was far greater than demand up until B6 made an agreement with the City in 2001 to take all the then-unused slots. At the time, the City changed the rules to help JetBlue so they wouldn't have to ramp up service overnight, and there were lawsuits filed by other carriers over that sweetheart deal. But times change, and by the time additional slots became available through the noise budgeting process, B6 had long been underutilizing its portfolio of slots at LGB. They had about a dozen slots they weren't even using, and yet they requested all nine supplemental slots? Seems like they were more interested in keeping out competition than serving the citizens of Long Beach.

nine4nine wrote:
AS didn’t see these slots as valuable assets, neither did F9, NK, AA, DL, UA or anyone else for that matter. And I highly doubt WN will take all the remaining slots especially if there’s an B6 exit altogether,only to poach on a higher the yielding SNA and LAX ops.


And all those other carriers gave the slots they weren't using back to the airport, rather than slot-sitting and complaining about proposed rule changes to discourage slot-sitting. I agree completely that WN is exceedingly unlikely to backfill all the B6 capacity if they were to indeed exit LGB, but I could easily see WN growing to ~20-25 daily departures to some combination of OAK/SJC/SMF/LAS/PHX/DEN

EmattpoYou wrote:
Yes, this is kind of crazy, but maybe LGB is starting to fall into debt. I also think about the economy. So, LGB falling into debt might be one reason. I personally dont know.


Yes, it is crazy. The fines aren't about raising money. They are about trying to discourage undesirable behavior. Many Long Beach citizens are vocal in their opposition to airport noise, so this intended to reduce the number of complaints by reducing the number of times B6 busts the curfew.

tphuang wrote:
B6 knows it's on it's way out, but it will drag things on and make WN loose as much money here as possible building up. The more WN looses on the west coast, the less it will be able to do on East Coast.


If they wanted to distract WN from building up on the East Coast, they'd give back slots at LGB since aircraft capacity deployed at LGB isn't flying routes back east. It's generally easier for WN to make money at LGB thanks to their ability to flow connections over virtually any station they'd end up connecting to LGB; they also have a unit cost advantage over B6 in the short-haul markets they'd operate at LGB. WN has far deeper pockets than B6 and burning cash at LGB won't make JBLU investors happy.

tphuang wrote:
B6 has nobody else but itself to blame for this LGB mess. If it had made a commitment to LAX earlier, it wouldn't be operating with just 2 gates.


B6's business model has changed since they made their commitment to LGB. At the time, they positioned themselves as an upscale discounter. They are in the process of morphing to a legacy carrier. LGB made sense with the old business model but it doesn't work as a legacy hub.

nine4nine wrote:
And WN is immune from post curfew operations? I was at BUR last week and there were 4 post 10pm arrivals alone. They will be paying those fines too at LGB. Just because they don’t offer transcons doesn’t mean squat. A good portion of their flights have multiple segments. If the origin city or even 2 of the 3 have delays that flights isn’t getting in till late.


They're not, but they're the largest carrier at SNA and the curfew at SNA is a hard curfew. If you're after hours, you don't land there. WN hadn't had an arrival after 11 PM at LGB in the first 8 months of 2018. Guess they don't know how to operate with a curfew, though.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:03 am

nine4nine wrote:
And WN is immune from post curfew operations? I was at BUR last week and there were 4 post 10pm arrivals alone. They will be paying those fines too at LGB. Just because they don’t offer transcons doesn’t mean squat. A good portion of their flights have multiple segments. If the origin city or even 2 of the 3 have delays that flights isn’t getting in till late.

My days working for WN at LAX I remember volunteering to stay overtime a few days a week to close or turn a very late flight, sometimes a handful of them. Many of which wouldn’t arrive until between 12-2am. The honeymoon will be over rather quickly with LGB once the fines start adding up.


Or they just flow over LGB to another station as the final leg of the day.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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UPlog
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Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:03 pm

Bad blood between B6 and the City of Long Beach lands squarely at B6 feet.

The airline has continually violated the airport's noise ordinance by operating hundreds of flights annually in the middle of curfew.

No wonder the community and City seek to tighten regulations.
 
wnflyguy
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Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:33 am

Anybody know the Results from the LGB board meeting this afternoon?

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:33 am

The proposal was adopted by 9-0 vote.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
cynlb
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Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:14 pm

Other LGB news-
Over JetBlue’s objections, City Council passes rules requiring airlines to use flight slots
https://lbpost.com/news/over-jetblues-o ... Jnm16oO07A
 
wnflyguy
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Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:45 pm

cynlb wrote:
Other LGB news-
Over JetBlue’s objections, City Council passes rules requiring airlines to use flight slots
https://lbpost.com/news/over-jetblues-o ... Jnm16oO07A


Now the question is how quickly will LGB reallocate the slots?
Or will B6 response with adding more flights or Further cut and Run.

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
phllax
Posts: 515
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Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:54 pm

nine4nine wrote:
And WN is immune from post curfew operations? I was at BUR last week and there were 4 post 10pm arrivals alone. They will be paying those fines too at LGB. Just because they don’t offer transcons doesn’t mean squat. A good portion of their flights have multiple segments. If the origin city or even 2 of the 3 have delays that flights isn’t getting in till late.


Not to hijack the thread, but per the BUR website, the curfew is voluntary and does not apply to Stage 3 certified aircraft:

Nighttime Curfew: Rule 9
Aircraft originally certified as Stage 3 or quieter are permitted to fly 24 hours per day. Aircraft not originally certified as Stage 3 are not permitted to operate between 10:00 p.m. and 7:00 a.m. unless they can demonstrate compliance with these Rules as written (see Rule 9.6a).

Voluntary Nighttime Curfew
The Authority has a long-standing voluntary curfew on scheduled arrivals and departures of passenger airline operations between the hours of 10 p.m. and 6:59 a.m. During those hours, airlines are strongly encouraged not to schedule any arrivals or departures.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:08 pm

I expect B6 might try to litigate this, as they have previously said they believe the proposals violates the 1990 ANCA law.
Even though the FAA had already provided a legal opinion the policy was in compliance, who knows how things play out in a more formal legal setting.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
tphuang
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Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:38 pm

B6 will not add more flights. They will try to litigate.
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:44 pm

I suspect that B6 will take a small stab at fighting this but will eventually give up some slots. If LGB had enough business to support more of their flights, the slots would be more fully utilized right now.

A couple of questions; Are the slots allocated for a specific time, or does an airline get 'X' number of slots and they schedule them as they see fit? And, do the slots have a monetary value? Can Jetblue sell them?
What the...?
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
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Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:56 pm

Other than poking WN in the eye, why would they fight it?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
fastmover
Posts: 419
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Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:19 pm

The irony is wasn’t one that of the reasons LGB didn’t want the FIS was because of noise and extra fights. Now they are on jetblue to use more of the slots which would be more noise and flights.
Huh
 
SurfandSnow
Posts: 1463
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Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:26 pm

Interesting that the slot rules haven't been updated since 2004 - that was a *very* different time for LGB and for that matter B6.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
cledaybuck
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Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:55 pm

So how long after stating this: “Today, four airlines control about 80% of the US market along with the vital facilities airlines need to operate in key markets. You look at some of the airport leases around the country and it’s almost as if the legacy carriers that dominate those markets had written the leases themselves. The fact is that in some of the most established and important markets in this country the infrastructure is tightly controlled by a few deep-pocketed airlines.” does B6 take legal action to try and allow them to squat on slots at LGB?
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
tphuang
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Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:43 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Other than poking WN in the eye, why would they fight it?


Wn is hemorrhaging money on these lgb flights right now. And I doubt that will change until they have sufficient slots. And even then, it remains to be seen whether they can make it actually profitable like bur.

At this point, I think JetBlue sees that it likely has no real future here. But the longer it can keep wn from getting adequate slots, the less money it will loose on those short haul flights and the more wn will loose. Maybe wn will give up. And if they don’t, loosing more money in west coast means they won’t grow as much in places where b6 is building up over at east coast.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:54 pm

tphuang wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
Other than poking WN in the eye, why would they fight it?


Wn is hemorrhaging money on these lgb flights right now. And I doubt that will change until they have sufficient slots. And even then, it remains to be seen whether they can make it actually profitable like bur.

At this point, I think JetBlue sees that it likely has no real future here. But the longer it can keep wn from getting adequate slots, the less money it will loose on those short haul flights and the more wn will loose. Maybe wn will give up. And if they don’t, loosing more money in west coast means they won’t grow as much in places where b6 is building up over at east coast.


Ok, so the short answer would seem to be yes, B6 is doing this to poke WN in the eye. I have no ill will towards B6 but I hope they quickly lose this fight or move on. Let WN or Moxy or whomever come in and make better use out of the limited slots, regardless of whether they are losing money or not. Realistically, WN should be the best option for people anyhow. I personally love LGB and would fly into there for a similar price to other airports, particularly LAX which I despise.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 462
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Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:06 am

LGB may as well already be a satellite base and one who's star is quickly fading. They don't even have their own base manager anymore.
 
fastmover
Posts: 419
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:37 pm

Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:34 am

Still, we hate all of these flights and noise unless you are not jetblue.
I’m sorry I can’t get over the opposition with the FIS because of more flights and noise and now this. (Fly more) Maybe jetblue might have something there.
 
nine4nine
Posts: 503
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Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:45 am

Assuming B6 is just going to walk away from LGB at this point. Dealt another blow on top of a station consistently providing poor yields, maybe they are evaluating cutting their loses and running. With the total flights they have left, perhaps splitting the flights between the other 3 LA basin stations and dropping underperforming routes? Is it really worth the fight at this point?
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impilot
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Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:15 am

JetBlue should have promised to make LGB a C series base with much quieter aircraft in exchange for the customs facility approval. This would help right size the network, be a good neighbor, etc. Also should have promised to make a better schedule and divert plan for late arriving aircraft. Also, if the hypothetical customs facility was open only until 10 or midnight (or whatever), that would force the intl arrivals to not arrive late, or divert to say ONT or somewhere else with intl facilities they could use. That could cut down on curfew violations, and also could create a common divert plan if past a certain time that the airline can deal with. Just some thoughts I had. No idea if any are viable.
 
nine4nine
Posts: 503
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Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:21 am

impilot wrote:
JetBlue should have promised to make LGB a C series base with much quieter aircraft in exchange for the customs facility approval. This would help right size the network, be a good neighbor, etc. Also should have promised to make a better schedule and divert plan for late arriving aircraft. Also, if the hypothetical customs facility was open only until 10 or midnight (or whatever), that would force the intl arrivals to not arrive late, or divert to say ONT or somewhere else with intl facilities they could use. That could cut down on curfew violations, and also could create a common divert plan if past a certain time that the airline can deal with. Just some thoughts I had. No idea if any are viable.



Sounds like an awful amount of work for “low hanging fruit”
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JoeCanuck
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Re: LGB doubles fines on JetBlue's late-night flight violations

Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:34 pm

Jetblue obviously sees more value for later flights than some early flights, which is why they are landing so late, so often. Without those, the value of LGB slots is reduced.

I don't see B6 abandoning LGB, but I think they will significantly reduce their presence there in the near future.
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