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toltommy
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NK pilots to vote on strike option

Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:51 am

Nothing more than the next step in the long, drawn out contract process that the RLA promotes. Purely a symbolic vote at this point. They would need an impasse declared, and released by the NMB before this vote has any meaning. Spirit pilots struck the company for 5 days in 2010, so on one hand, the company should realize that this group could go again. But on the other, what % of current NK pilots were working for the company in 2010. Based on the growth, those who struck last time around may be in the minority now. Maybe that's why the company and union can't come to terms?

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Varsity1
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Re: NK pilots to vote on strike option

Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:59 am

Spirit management is a clown show and doesn't negotiate in good faith.

Keep in mind Spirit pilots are asking for less than Allegiant currently makes..
 
toltommy
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Re: NK pilots to vote on strike option

Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:43 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Spirit management is a clown show and doesn't negotiate in good faith.


I won't disagree with the first part of your statement. However, I find more often than not that accusations that the company "doesn't negotiate in good faith" translates into the company "doesn't roll over and give us what we want". I've been at the table in contract negotiations. There are nuances that both the union and the company play. The rank and file has no idea what happens aside from what they read in newsletters from both sides. Personally, I hope Spirit pilots get everything they want and then some. But they have to play the game.
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tb727
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Re: NK pilots to vote on strike option

Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:18 pm

toltommy wrote:
But on the other, what % of current NK pilots were working for the company in 2010. Based on the growth, those who struck last time around may be in the minority now. Maybe that's why the company and union can't come to terms?

https://www.bizjournals.com/southflorid ... yptr=yahoo


The pilot group is roughly 3 times the size as 2010 and they are most certainly not in the minority in this strike vote. My guess is this will be pretty close to 100% yes.
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 
MIflyer12
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Re: NK pilots to vote on strike option

Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:45 pm

toltommy wrote:
Nothing more than the next step in the long, drawn out contract process that the RLA promotes. Purely a symbolic vote at this point. They would need an impasse declared, and released by the NMB before this vote has any meaning.


Among 'major' U.S. air carriers - a level set by the FAA as operating revenues greater than $1 billion annually - how many pilot groups has the NMB released to strike over the past decade? It is very rare, is it not?
 
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Boeing778X
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Re: NK pilots to vote on strike option

Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:03 pm

    Varsity1 wrote:
    Spirit management is a clown show and doesn't negotiate in good faith.

    Keep in mind Spirit pilots are asking for less than Allegiant currently makes..


    Spirit is a clown show, period!
    United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
     
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    tb727
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    Re: NK pilots to vote on strike option

    Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:04 pm

    MIflyer12 wrote:
    toltommy wrote:
    Nothing more than the next step in the long, drawn out contract process that the RLA promotes. Purely a symbolic vote at this point. They would need an impasse declared, and released by the NMB before this vote has any meaning.


    Among 'major' U.S. air carriers - a level set by the FAA as operating revenues greater than $1 billion annually - how many pilot groups has the NMB released to strike over the past decade? It is very rare, is it not?


    It's been rumored that the NMB has said no airline will be released to strike again. The only way to know for sure is to get to that point.
    Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
     
    goboeing
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    Re: NK pilots to vote on strike option

    Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:20 pm

    toltommy wrote:
    Varsity1 wrote:
    Spirit management is a clown show and doesn't negotiate in good faith.
    Personally, I hope Spirit pilots get everything they want and then some. But they have to play the game.


    They are playing the game, hence this strike vote, which will be rounded to 100% in favor.
     
    32andBelow
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    Re: NK pilots to vote on strike option

    Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:29 pm

    tb727 wrote:
    MIflyer12 wrote:
    toltommy wrote:
    Nothing more than the next step in the long, drawn out contract process that the RLA promotes. Purely a symbolic vote at this point. They would need an impasse declared, and released by the NMB before this vote has any meaning.


    Among 'major' U.S. air carriers - a level set by the FAA as operating revenues greater than $1 billion annually - how many pilot groups has the NMB released to strike over the past decade? It is very rare, is it not?


    It's been rumored that the NMB has said no airline will be released to strike again. The only way to know for sure is to get to that point.

    What are they going to do? Chain them to the airplane? It's not like they could just fire them all. There are no pilots to replace them with.
     
    toltommy
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    Re: NK pilots to vote on strike option

    Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:33 pm

    tb727 wrote:
    toltommy wrote:
    The pilot group is roughly 3 times the size as 2010 and they are most certainly not in the minority in this strike vote. My guess is this will be pretty close to 100% yes.


    You missed my point. Yes, this vote will be close to 100%. It always is at this point. But not every pilot will like the eventual contract. From what you say, the senior guys who were on the property for the last strike are in the minority. The junior pilots will control wether the "last, best offer" is accepted before an actual release and strike. Both the union and the company will negotiate for an agreement that has the best chance of passing. You do that by identifying the group most likely to vote yes, and structure the contract to that group. The senior pilots don't have the votes.
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    VolvoBus
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    Re: NK pilots to vote on strike option

    Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:08 pm

    I may be cynical,but it is very easy to vote in favour of a strike when the prospect of actually walking out is probably 12 months away,at the earliest. If there is not a big majority for a strike, the negotiators have virtually no leverage.
     
    A320NK
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    Re: NK pilots to vote on strike option

    Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:05 pm

    I'd like to add something. Seven years ago, when the 400+ pilots went on strike, there were very few airline pilot jobs to be had. They risked a lot. In today's environment, not only are all airlines hiring, but most have better pay too.
     
    MIflyer12
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    Re: NK pilots to vote on strike option

    Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:45 pm

    A320NK wrote:
    I'd like to add something. Seven years ago, when the 400+ pilots went on strike, there were very few airline pilot jobs to be had. They risked a lot. In today's environment, not only are all airlines hiring, but most have better pay too.


    Ten-year NK captains ($160/hr) won't become ten-year Delta captains. If they're lucky, they might become first-year Delta co-pilots ($86/hr) commuting to NYC to fly a 717. They need to determine if they're willing to take a 7-8 year wage and quality of life hit. They could do that tomorrow - they don't need to strike.
     
    BudtheSpud
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    Re: NK pilots to vote on strike option

    Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:51 pm

    Varsity1 wrote:
    Spirit management is a clown show and doesn't negotiate in good faith.

    Keep in mind Spirit pilots are asking for less than Allegiant currently makes..


    Not true at all. NK management has been offering current Allegiant rates for months and Spirit ALPA won't have it. Where the heck do some of you get your information?
     
    BudtheSpud
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    Re: NK pilots to vote on strike option

    Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:53 am

    Varsity1 wrote:
    BudtheSpud wrote:
    Varsity1 wrote:
    Spirit management is a clown show and doesn't negotiate in good faith.

    Keep in mind Spirit pilots are asking for less than Allegiant currently makes..


    Not true at all. NK management has been offering current Allegiant rates for months and Spirit ALPA won't have it. Where the heck do some of you get your information?


    Horse****.

    How can they offer something when they aren't even communicating with the MEC? The only thing they have offer so far is a lawsuit against the pilots, which they actually brought.


    Come on man. Not even communicating with the MEC? They have been in mediated negotiations since September of last year including as recently as the first week of August and will continue next week as well. The last few sessions have been attended by a high ranking NMB member in hopes to move the process forward and help the parties reach an agreement. Both sides have exchanged numerous term sheet proposals during this time.

    You are correct that management was awarded a TRO against the pilot group in May but the rest of your information couldn't be more incorrect.
     
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    tb727
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    Re: NK pilots to vote on strike option

    Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:29 pm

    toltommy wrote:
    tb727 wrote:
    toltommy wrote:
    The pilot group is roughly 3 times the size as 2010 and they are most certainly not in the minority in this strike vote. My guess is this will be pretty close to 100% yes.


    You missed my point. Yes, this vote will be close to 100%. It always is at this point. But not every pilot will like the eventual contract. From what you say, the senior guys who were on the property for the last strike are in the minority. The junior pilots will control wether the "last, best offer" is accepted before an actual release and strike. Both the union and the company will negotiate for an agreement that has the best chance of passing. You do that by identifying the group most likely to vote yes, and structure the contract to that group. The senior pilots don't have the votes.


    Ahhh I got you. Hmmm I think as of now everyone is on the same page but there hasn't been anything specific as far as offers in a long time. The senior guys of course won't get as big as a bump in pay as the junior guys but a lot of my concern is what are they going to try and do to work rules. I'll wait and see.
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    flight152
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    Re: NK pilots to vote on strike option

    Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:42 pm

    MIflyer12 wrote:
    A320NK wrote:
    I'd like to add something. Seven years ago, when the 400+ pilots went on strike, there were very few airline pilot jobs to be had. They risked a lot. In today's environment, not only are all airlines hiring, but most have better pay too.


    Ten-year NK captains ($160/hr) won't become ten-year Delta captains. If they're lucky, they might become first-year Delta co-pilots ($86/hr) commuting to NYC to fly a 717. They need to determine if they're willing to take a 7-8 year wage and quality of life hit. They could do that tomorrow - they don't need to strike.

    A 10 year NK captain will be making more at year 3 first officer at United, Delta or American when you take account differences in retirement.
     
    flight152
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    Re: NK pilots to vote on strike option

    Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:44 pm

    MIflyer12 wrote:
    A320NK wrote:
    I'd like to add something. Seven years ago, when the 400+ pilots went on strike, there were very few airline pilot jobs to be had. They risked a lot. In today's environment, not only are all airlines hiring, but most have better pay too.


    Ten-year NK captains ($160/hr) won't become ten-year Delta captains. If they're lucky, they might become first-year Delta co-pilots ($86/hr) commuting to NYC to fly a 717. They need to determine if they're willing to take a 7-8 year wage and quality of life hit. They could do that tomorrow - they don't need to strike.

    A 10 year NK captain will be making more as a year 3 first officer at United, Delta or American when you take account differences in retirement. The earning potential at those places is so much more.
     
    n6238p
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    Re: NK pilots to vote on strike option

    Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:44 pm

    How about this. A first year Spirt FO flying around a 228 seat A321 will make less than a first year FO flying a 37 seat Dash 8 for Piedmont.

    A captains pay scale flying the exact model aircraft should never have to be compared to an FO's at another airline in this market.
    To actively root against anybody is just low, and I hope karma comes back at you with a vengeance
     
    toltommy
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    Re: NK pilots to vote on strike option

    Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:01 am

    n6238p wrote:
    How about this. A first year Spirt FO flying around a 228 seat A321 will make less than a first year FO flying a 37 seat Dash 8 for Piedmont.

    A captains pay scale flying the exact model aircraft should never have to be compared to an FO's at another airline in this market.


    The wholly owned regionals were notorious for their poor pay, until they couldn't recruit. Ego wants to fly the "big 321" vs a Dash. Until Spirit can't recruit new hire pilots, they won't pay the rates of the wholly owned regionals. I haven't heard that NK is having trouble recruiting new hire pilots. If this is the case, ALPA would be better served encouraging pilots to apply at ALPA carriers that have higher pay rates and signing bonuses.
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    N353SK
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    Re: NK pilots to vote on strike option

    Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:41 am

    MIflyer12 wrote:
    A320NK wrote:
    I'd like to add something. Seven years ago, when the 400+ pilots went on strike, there were very few airline pilot jobs to be had. They risked a lot. In today's environment, not only are all airlines hiring, but most have better pay too.


    Ten-year NK captains ($160/hr) won't become ten-year Delta captains. If they're lucky, they might become first-year Delta co-pilots ($86/hr) commuting to NYC to fly a 717. They need to determine if they're willing to take a 7-8 year wage and quality of life hit. They could do that tomorrow - they don't need to strike.


    Pilots with less than one year at Delta can hold a captain seat on the MD88. First year captain pay on the MD88 is $227 per hour.
     
    surfdog75
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    Re: NK pilots to vote on strike option

    Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:01 am

    MIflyer12 wrote:
    A320NK wrote:
    I'd like to add something. Seven years ago, when the 400+ pilots went on strike, there were very few airline pilot jobs to be had. They risked a lot. In today's environment, not only are all airlines hiring, but most have better pay too.


    Ten-year NK captains ($160/hr) won't become ten-year Delta captains. If they're lucky, they might become first-year Delta co-pilots ($86/hr) commuting to NYC to fly a 717. They need to determine if they're willing to take a 7-8 year wage and quality of life hit. They could do that tomorrow - they don't need to strike.


    Deleted for being repetitive and not reading previous posts.
     
    raddek
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    Re: NK pilots to vote on strike option

    Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:16 am

    NK pilots are also looking for profit sharing. When NK is the most profitable per pax airline in the states, why wouldn't the employees want a piece of the profits? And the Flight attendant group at NK has a "me too" clause in their current contract. So if the pilots get profit sharing, so do the almost 3,000 Nk flight attendants.
     
    Passedv1
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    Re: NK pilots to vote on strike option

    Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:30 am

    MIflyer12 wrote:
    A320NK wrote:
    I'd like to add something. Seven years ago, when the 400+ pilots went on strike, there were very few airline pilot jobs to be had. They risked a lot. In today's environment, not only are all airlines hiring, but most have better pay too.


    Ten-year NK captains ($160/hr) won't become ten-year Delta captains. If they're lucky, they might become first-year Delta co-pilots ($86/hr) commuting to NYC to fly a 717. They need to determine if they're willing to take a 7-8 year wage and quality of life hit. They could do that tomorrow - they don't need to strike.


    Break even without considering benefits is realistically by year 3 at Delta. I guarantee you every FO and 90% of Captains have their resumes out at all the big 3.

    We are about to see the impact of this pilot job market on the 2nd tier majors (AS, B6, HA). None of them have come out publicly but reading between the lines of what I am hearing they are having to reach deeper and deeper into the barrel to get pilots. HA now
    Flies you out to the interview, AS just started paying for hotels while you are in training. HA and AS are both having trouble hanging on to new FO's...(in spite of HA's new "almost market rate" contract). No more need for PIC, Total time? Nah don't worry just apply!

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