Delta777Jet
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:19 pm

This haul process of Air Berlin going down is like a crime movie. Lufthansa says on the one hand , not interested in AB long haul business. Of course not because the working tools (A330) changed already hands. Of course it doesn't take the entire remaining business , because it doesn't want problems with the anti trust authorities. Let's say, some can go to easy and condor as they are anyway weak. All supported by German tax money for higher air fares in the future - guaranteed. With all the tax money spent, still there will be lots of passengers with money on unflown tickets lost. All the bad news will come next week, when election is done. Then all this will show the ugly face. It will be interesting to see, how they swap the slots over to LH or EW if that is normally not possible...
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LTU330
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:04 am

seahawk wrote:
We all know that this whole deal is only meant to strengthen LH.


Indeed, and unfortunately destroying the lives of several thousand truly hard working people who are surplus to requirements. Still, the people bleating on about the price of tickets rising now won't care one bit about that.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:05 am

Delta777Jet wrote:
This haul process of Air Berlin going down is like a crime movie. Lufthansa says on the one hand , not interested in AB long haul business. Of course not because the working tools (A330) changed already hands. Of course it doesn't take the entire remaining business , because it doesn't want problems with the anti trust authorities. Let's say, some can go to easy and condor as they are anyway weak. All supported by German tax money for higher air fares in the future - guaranteed. With all the tax money spent, still there will be lots of passengers with money on unflown tickets lost. All the bad news will come next week, when election is done. Then all this will show the ugly face. It will be interesting to see, how they swap the slots over to LH or EW if that is normally not possible...


I hope FR takes this to court for corruption. It is obvious that state officials are heavily manipulating the outcome in favour of LH. This process is worse than the dealings in a third world nation and a disgrace for every honest person working for the German state.
 
luftaom
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:09 am

For those suggesting that the KfW shouldn't be doing what it is - what do you think about the New Zealand navy using one of its ships to transport fuel as a result of the cracked fuel pipe causing shortages (see: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1373993&start=100 )

Isn't that the government distorting the market?
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HHScot
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:33 am

luftaom wrote:
For those suggesting that the KfW shouldn't be doing what it is - what do you think about the New Zealand navy using one of its ships to transport fuel as a result of the cracked fuel pipe causing shortages (see: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1373993&start=100 )

Isn't that the government distorting the market?


No, entirely different. If the NZ government don't do that the airport goes dry and petrol station too and the economy and people suffersas a result. There is no alternative. A case of securing national infrastructure.

If nothing is done about AB there are still flight options. So it's not vital to the national infrastructure. (Of course there's the human element here of stranded pad and AB workers to consider)
 
Delta777Jet
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:38 am

The fuel shortage in AKL is a national problem which is of short term and where no other commercial company could help out. In case of Air Berlin it started with unusual self admin insolvency whereas a loyal Lufthansa manager sit in the board of director, agree with government a plan to get funding , so that the assets can be moved over to LH. Without this funding AB would have gone, all flights stopped and the market would pick it up very quickly but in such case newcomers to large Germany airports would get slots first.

For employees and passengers the immediate stop or postponed one at tax payers expense doesn't make any difference. We saw how fast AB stopped long haul, leaving passengers stranded, even with the government money. They did that just for transferring the airplanes already beforehand.

What the sense to fly empty planes around ? To burn money ?

This is not about helping anyone other than Lufthansa. With luck the purchase price is 150m for Niki, so the state gets his money back , but would also not surprise me if the money is lost.

As far as I know , all the recent AB managers were ex LH emoloyees ?!? May be AB was purposely made to loose money at cost of EY ?
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CARST
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:33 am

HHScot wrote:
No, entirely different. If the NZ government don't do that the airport goes dry and petrol station too and the economy and people suffersas a result. There is no alternative. A case of securing national infrastructure.


What is different about the situation? How did you asses this? July to October is a the main travel season in Europe and especially Germany. Tenthousands of people would have been stranded if Air Berlin would have stopped operating right away when declaring insolvency and liquidation would have followed. The German government decided it is cheaper to finance AB for another three month by a KfW credit, than having to buy all these stranded pax new tickets or even deploying German Air Force planes.

Also your comment about NZ is wrong. AFAIK this is a 100% Jet A1 fuel pipeline. No petrol station would run dry in this case. This only bothers AKL airport and the airlines operating there. The airport and the airlines could have chartered a private tanker-ship somewhere or paid the NZ Navy. But the NZ government does it for free, because they see this as a the cheapest solution for their economy. The reason why they do it is very similar.

Delta777Jet wrote:
The fuel shortage in AKL is a national problem which is of short term and where no other commercial company could help out.


And again, why couldn't have AKL airport and NZ chartered a private tanker/ship? Or 40 trucks running in circles on this 2-hour-track to the rafinnery?

By questioning this, I don't say the NZ government did anything wrong. Because IMHO a government can make these decisions. If they see their citizens could suffer more or have higher financial losses, when not spending government money, it is totally okay to help a struggling business.Be it Germany (through a KfW credit) letting AB live for a few months, NZ using Navy vessels to transport Jet A1 to AKL or the US government saving a lot of banks (who to 100% caused their own problems) with the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act in 2008.

This was all okay. Their just need to be consequences afterwards:
- AB was saved to get the pax home. Now liquidate or sell it. That will happen now. :checkmark:
- AKL needs a back-up plan if this pipeline gets destroyed again. Not sure if this will happen, because so far it was deemed too expensive. :redflag:
- The USA and the EU should have stopped the neo-liberalism in their banking systems and should have stopped the banks from selling CDOs and synthesied CDOs after 2008/2009. Did not happen. :redflag:

Delta777Jet wrote:
In case of Air Berlin it started with unusual self admin insolvency whereas a loyal Lufthansa manager sit in the board of director, agree with government a plan to get funding , so that the assets can be moved over to LH.


"Unusual self admin insolvency" ???????

What is unusual about it? This is the absolute standard case of 80% of all insolvencys. If a company can show that with certain measures and a sound restructuring plan, they have a place in the future economy and will be profitable again, it is normal to let the current management keep doing their job, of course tightly overseen by the shareholders and banks.

Only if the shareholders and banks don't trust the current Management, then one or multiple insolvency managers get employed to do the job of the previous management.

In the USA you know this as Chapter 11.

The only other option would be Chapter 7 or in Germany known as outright liquidation. Now think of all the US airlines in the years post 9/11. They all went through Chapter 11, with banks, retirement funds and many other people loosing a lot of money. But it was always deemed the better way for the economy, opposed to the airline completely going out of business and all people loosing their jobs.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:39 am

If the world was that easy, Revelation. Truth is that AB's Operation was inefficiet with many Money Drains, that was boke years ago but kept alive by a middle eastern Country with ambitions to dominate the aviation wold also outside their own Turf.. Blame EY and the People who run that carrier but don't blame LH and others who are able to pick up parts.
Call that cherry picking or whatever you want but no one who is accounatble and responsible to his shareholders will take the sour Grapes. No one can be forced to take over pats of a broke Company that cannot be fixed.

BTW: Germany is ruled by the law, not by Mrs Merkel. She has to observe the laws same as Mr. Spohr. Becaise they and milllios others do that, Germany as well as LH are successful..
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luftaom
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:57 am

OK so if the Navy ship being used to alleviate the situation of the burst pipeline is ok - is it also ok for the government to say underwrite a portion of a duplication pipeline (say by providing a low interest loan) - which absent the government underwriting wouldn't be financially viable?
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PanHAM
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:32 am

Comparing apples with peaches again. A leaked Pipeline is not an insolvency. A leaked Pipeline can be compared with a damaged road Bridge that results in weight reductions. No one pays Truckers etc for the detours.
.
An orderly conducted insolvency prevents such damages. The alternative would have been a straight bankruptcy which would have grounded AB instantly, some aircraft would still be grounded, atleast the ones which haven't been taken back be the lessors and found new homes. passengers would be stranded for days and maybe even weeks with the government chartering aircraft.

Meanwhile the Airlines would be picking up the remains for nothing, Slots do not have a Price tag in Germany, i short, there would not even be a bankruptcy mass which would be needed to open the bankruptcy procedures.

AB would hve meanwhile literallly evaporated. The employees whoch would not have been taken by new employers would live on 3 month insolveny severance pay, paid from uneployment insurance and thereafter receive unemployment Money from the same spurce.
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:25 am

PanHAM wrote:
If the world was that easy, Revelation. Truth is that AB's Operation was inefficiet with many Money Drains, that was boke years ago but kept alive by a middle eastern Country with ambitions to dominate the aviation wold also outside their own Turf.. Blame EY and the People who run that carrier but don't blame LH and others who are able to pick up parts.
Call that cherry picking or whatever you want but no one who is accounatble and responsible to his shareholders will take the sour Grapes. No one can be forced to take over pats of a broke Company that cannot be fixed.

BTW: Germany is ruled by the law, not by Mrs Merkel. She has to observe the laws same as Mr. Spohr. Becaise they and milllios others do that, Germany as well as LH are successful..

What you are saying is not logically connected. "AB was inefficient and was propped up by third party funds" is not logically connected to "LH should be able to eat up the parts it wants and spit out the rest".
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f4f3a
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:01 am

So it looks like preffered bidders are easyjet and Lufthansa . However neither are interested in the long haul .
Lufthansa has quoted as saying that there planes are too old and would rather grow its own brand .

Would some of these be taken up by condor or iag ?
 
OO-VEG
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:36 am

That will be a big blow for DUS. I guess Condor may take up some long-haul holiday routes, Eurowings will seriously consider the canabalization of their CGN hub with any route opening from DUS. I guess it will take some time before we see proper US routes from DUS emerge.

I am going to keep an extra close eye on anything Norwegian will be doing. This is too big an opportunity to leave unattended for them.
 
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:46 am

Skyliner says all long hail flights will end on 25th Sept.
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VictorKilo
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:06 pm

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... lin-assets

Lufthansa wants for Eurowings the jets wet-leased from AirBerlin for Eurowings, and also wants Niki. (Possibly with the TUIFly leases included???)

EasyJet wants other parts of AirBerlin's short-haul business.

Neither EasyJet nor Lufthansa want to buy the AirBerlin long haul assets from AirBerlin, and those planes are already starting to return to the lessors.

AirBerlin will continue to hold talks in parallel for other assets, which would include the 20-strong LGW-operated Q400 fleet not mentioned in the article.
 
lancelot07
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:02 pm

VictorKilo wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-22/lufthansa-easyjet-get-inside-track-on-buying-air-berlin-assets

Lufthansa wants for Eurowings the jets wet-leased from AirBerlin for Eurowings, and also wants Niki. (Possibly with the TUIFly leases included???)

Seems so, but i don't think they want the TUI leases.There is a good chance that Niki has to file for bankruptcy very soon. Niki has some 70 million € loans in AB that will become a write-off they can't afford.
 
VictorKilo
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:20 pm

lancelot07 wrote:
VictorKilo wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-22/lufthansa-easyjet-get-inside-track-on-buying-air-berlin-assets

Lufthansa wants for Eurowings the jets wet-leased from AirBerlin for Eurowings, and also wants Niki. (Possibly with the TUIFly leases included???)

Seems so, but i don't think they want the TUI leases.There is a good chance that Niki has to file for bankruptcy very soon. Niki has some 70 million € loans in AB that will become a write-off they can't afford.


I agree with you - I don't see why the TUI leases would be desirable - but the report seems to indicate that they could be a part of the deal.
 
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:23 pm

VictorKilo wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-22/lufthansa-easyjet-get-inside-track-on-buying-air-berlin-assets

Lufthansa wants for Eurowings the jets wet-leased from AirBerlin for Eurowings, and also wants Niki. (Possibly with the TUIFly leases included???)

EasyJet wants other parts of AirBerlin's short-haul business.

Neither EasyJet nor Lufthansa want to buy the AirBerlin long haul assets from AirBerlin, and those planes are already starting to return to the lessors.

AirBerlin will continue to hold talks in parallel for other assets, which would include the 20-strong LGW-operated Q400 fleet not mentioned in the article.

Article says:

“We believe Air Berlin will exit the market,” Spohr said. “That means we will be able to grow by another 20 to 40 aircraft. The next days will show if that will be organic growth or with a transaction involving Air Berlin.

Translation: Either the slots/planes/gates end up with us, or a lot more people will be hitting the pavement...
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WIederling
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:54 pm

Revelation wrote:
Frau Merkel gets four more years to rule, alles ist in Ordnung...


With the Merkel and Schulz meet up more of a Kaffeeklatsch than anything else ...
what do you expect.
Schulz initially got a lot of up lift from the media for to better let him crash land later on,
i.e. now days ahead of the election.
Both are rather lack luster in the "visions" domain that brought Brandt into the office
back then.

Today politicians across the full spectrum are "Apparatchiks", objectives lacking political power squatters.
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juliuswong
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:25 pm

How is the condition are those A330 fleet? If they are any good, many charter airline will take them up I can see. Few weeks ago, I read that they were adding three more used A332 before all these mess exploded. Did all three joined the fleet?
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seahawk
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:26 pm

http://www.focus.de/finanzen/news/unter ... 26214.html

Wöhrl also calls the proceedings highly irregular and borderline illegal. They are only meant to help LH. I agree with such an experienced manager in aviation.
 
Delta777Jet
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:32 pm

The 70m write off in Niki is then just a balance sheet issue which can be fixed in the moment LH is really buying Niki. My guess is , TuiFly need to find a new home for their expensive lease planes or need to reduce the price to a standard price. In other words no sponsorship for TuiFly any longer .
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LTU330
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:05 pm

Tui will be toast most likely. Without the Air Berlin cash cow they are pretty much in the mire also. The Tui contract was more than one of the nails in the Air Berlin Coffin, and why on earth would any part of the LH Group be interested in a 737 operator other than to obtain slots ?
 
Delta777Jet
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:18 pm

Now one news outlet reports, that Lufthansa is already owner or in the process of owning and taking over all the jets they want from Air Berlin. According to it, the CAA in Germany, with the most support of the transport minister is just able to complete 3 airplane registration movements per week.

I must say, the plan of Lufthansa is really nicely executed. More or less, the admin of Air Berlin has no chance other than to grab a bit of money from Lufthansa as a good will, because the alternative is to sell an airline of which all the airplanes are owned by LH.
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luftaom
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:57 am

PanHAM - I'm not comparing an insolvency to a pipeline. My point was really in response to the misgivings about the actions of the KfW - and just testing the extent to which those have a blanket objection to a function of government interfering in the market. It seems that the argument by some is that the government shouldn't interfere in the market ... except when it should.

I agree with you - the sale of a going concern (or at least parts of it) is going to be much more valuable than the sale of assets in a liquidation context. If the KfW have got themselves to the top of the creditor's pot (in respect of their loan to keep the operations going whilst parts are sold off) - then I would be astonished if there weren't sufficient money realised from the sale proceeds for KfW to get their money back AND for the creditors behind them in the priority order to get more cents in the euro back than they would have got under the liquidation scenario.

KfW is a function of government - governments are responsive to voters - particularly in the lead up to elections. Airlines are labour intensive businesses. Just think about the number of man hours of just ground staff which directly go into turning around just one flight - the cleaners (although less so on short haul) the catering, the person driving the tug, the refuellers, the gate agent, the baggage handlers etc etc etc - I suspect the number of full time equivalent jobs created on the ground (let alone on board) for every flight is probably 2.5 (20 man hours). There is no way a government wants that mess being played out on TV nor the spike in unemployment associated with thousands losing their jobs all at once in the lead up to an election.

Government functionaries like the KfW are there to do 2 things. Allow governments to step into the market to solve political problems (which invariably have their roots as a social problem) and to fix failings in the market (by moving the needle slightly on a project to turn it from not doable into doable - good examples of this are pipelines and renewable energy assets). I spent a good year of my life working on a deal for the private sector to spent many hundreds of millions on a very extensive infrastructure asset - where the government stepped in and effectively guaranteed a modest baseline level of use - which was the made the whole thing 'bankable' (that is the operator could then get finance to build the thing... based on the guarantee of a base line level of useage tolls). Unless something goes dramatically wrong, the use of the asset will likely never fall below the level the government has underwritten - so the probable cost to government will be $0. This is what governments do. To suggest that they shouldn't interfere in the market is both a politically and socially naive line of argument.
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GatorClark
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:03 am

So for the specific question that I really dont want to read through 14 pages of to find.. What does this mean for the route to RSW? Other than Air Canada & WestJet, (which I personally don't consider truly "International") the Air Berlin flights are our only trans-oceanic international flights.. (Occasional Charters such as Thomas Cook & Condor don't count since they aren't regularly scheduled)..
 
Andy33
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:53 am

GatorClark wrote:
So for the specific question that I really dont want to read through 14 pages of to find.. What does this mean for the route to RSW? Other than Air Canada & WestJet, (which I personally don't consider truly "International") the Air Berlin flights are our only trans-oceanic international flights.. (Occasional Charters such as Thomas Cook & Condor don't count since they aren't regularly scheduled)..


I have read the entire thread (well, I read it as it grew), and the consensus is that all Air Berlin longhaul flights which haven't already been cancelled will cease at some point within the next 7 weeks, maybe as early as next week. Other airlines may pick up individual routes, but nobody has announced that they intend to operate DUS-RSW yet, or most of the other routes either. Lufthansa has done a deal with the leasing company which owned them, and acquired 10 of Air Berlin's A332s.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:00 am

I mentioned here earlier that "the government" cannnot do what it wants. I have given a lot or arguments for the sake of a controllled insolvency. That is where the KfW was involved and the beneficiaries are the employees of AB and the passengers. Only tertiary is LJ and / or Condor a beneficiary. Other government agencies like the M&A/Cartell board may argue agaist LH and if the Umwelt Bundesamt (Evironmental agency) suggestions would always be followed by the Government, Germany would already be de-industrialized.

The procedure whch is under way must be in accordance with the insolvency law and that means that all agencies involved must be heard and the final decision can be appealed. The government cannot interfere. Call that naive, but this is Germany and not a counntry ruled by decret. LH and Easyjet are the only contenders that have enough cash to Support such a purchase until it is finaly finished, which at best might be just before Christmas. Until then, the bidders must Support their share of the cake. The 50 Million Mr. Wöhrl has pledged would by far not be sufficient.
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LTU330
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:11 am

Andy33 wrote:
GatorClark wrote:
So for the specific question that I really dont want to read through 14 pages of to find.. What does this mean for the route to RSW? Other than Air Canada & WestJet, (which I personally don't consider truly "International") the Air Berlin flights are our only trans-oceanic international flights.. (Occasional Charters such as Thomas Cook & Condor don't count since they aren't regularly scheduled)..


I have read the entire thread (well, I read it as it grew), and the consensus is that all Air Berlin longhaul flights which haven't already been cancelled will cease at some point within the next 7 weeks, maybe as early as next week. Other airlines may pick up individual routes, but nobody has announced that they intend to operate DUS-RSW yet, or most of the other routes either. Lufthansa has done a deal with the leasing company which owned them, and acquired 10 of Air Berlin's A332s.


But Lufthansa stated they are not interested in the AB A330s as they are "too old". So where is the actual proof that they have purchased 10 A330s from Aercap already ? Next week they do disappear from the AB computer systems, and one is already in ZRH probably being painted in Condor or Eurowings scheme for the operating of Caribbean routes out of DUS, but other than that it is only a rumor that LH bought 10 already. I do know that the list of other Aircraft going over to LH is already known for a while, which does seem as if everything was pre planned. Surprise surprise though, Eurowings had already announced CGN to RSW flights. Watch them switch over to DUS as this route was one of the better performing AB routes with good yield in Business Class.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:15 am

Well it is common knowledge that LH was working on plan for the insolvency of AB for over a year. Yes, they were prepared and that is why the proceeding seem dubious. A LH manager becomes CEO at AB only to do his master bidding. I call it criminal and I hope somebody will go to court over it. Wöhrl or FR should do this.
 
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LTU330
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:26 am

PanHAM wrote:
I mentioned here earlier that "the government" cannnot do what it wants. I have given a lot or arguments for the sake of a controllled insolvency. That is where the KfW was involved and the beneficiaries are the employees of AB and the passengers. Only tertiary is LJ and / or Condor a beneficiary. Other government agencies like the M&A/Cartell board may argue agaist LH and if the Umwelt Bundesamt (Evironmental agency) suggestions would always be followed by the Government, Germany would already be de-industrialized.

The procedure whch is under way must be in accordance with the insolvency law and that means that all agencies involved must be heard and the final decision can be appealed. The government cannot interfere. Call that naive, but this is Germany and not a counntry ruled by decret. LH and Easyjet are the only contenders that have enough cash to Support such a purchase until it is finaly finished, which at best might be just before Christmas. Until then, the bidders must Support their share of the cake. The 50 Million Mr. Wöhrl has pledged would by far not be sufficient.


The problem is that you could role in with a few Billion Euros and they would find a way to make sure it still got sliced up the way they already decided. LH will save about 3000 jobs which is commendable, but on poor contracts compared to others in the LH Group. In return they get everything they want. I have no problem with them with that respect. Air Berlin would have already disappeared if the 38 Aircraft lease had not happened previously. The trouble is that the system is designed to secure first as many jobs as possible. I think only about 4000 jobs will be saved in total. Personally, I think a lot more could have been saved if it had been a fairer playing field, but you never know. One thing I do think is that the people in MUC are basically pushed out of the way. No meetings scheduled to talk about the proceedings. Only scheduled in DUS and BER.
 
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LTU330
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:29 am

seahawk wrote:
Well it is common knowledge that LH was working on plan for the insolvency of AB for over a year. Yes, they were prepared and that is why the proceeding seem dubious. A LH manager becomes CEO at AB only to do his master bidding. I call it criminal and I hope somebody will go to court over it. Wöhrl or FR should do this.


If going to court keeps me in a job a few months longer I am totally up for that :)
 
PanHAM
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:48 am

The decision to favor LH and EZY was made by the creditors committee and they have Chosen the bidders who put the most Money into the insolvency mass. That includes the monies to Support the ops once the KfW loan is eaten up.

The decision can be appealed of course but that will take up further time. Not a good Thing as , if it takes too Long, bidders might walk away. No one can blame LH or any other contender for having worked out plans to be prepared once the obvious is going to happen. Matter of fact is, the LH board would have had a hard time to explain their owners why they would not have been prepared.
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anstar
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:11 am

Where do the AB Eurowings planes fly from? Is it all dus and txl or other bases?
 
PanHAM
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:16 am

LTU330 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Well it is common knowledge that LH was working on plan for the insolvency of AB for over a year. Yes, they were prepared and that is why the proceeding seem dubious. A LH manager becomes CEO at AB only to do his master bidding. I call it criminal and I hope somebody will go to court over it. Wöhrl or FR should do this.


If going to court keeps me in a job a few months longer I am totally up for that :)


I would not Count on that. If a bidder withdraws his bid the AB remains would be grounded immediately by the LBA. There would be no real value in the remains as anyone could step in and grab what is left for free. Possibly not even an "Anschlusskonkurs" might be possible. Which in plain words would mean that no creditor gets anything.
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LTU330
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:31 am

PanHAM wrote:
LTU330 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Well it is common knowledge that LH was working on plan for the insolvency of AB for over a year. Yes, they were prepared and that is why the proceeding seem dubious. A LH manager becomes CEO at AB only to do his master bidding. I call it criminal and I hope somebody will go to court over it. Wöhrl or FR should do this.


If going to court keeps me in a job a few months longer I am totally up for that :)


I would not Count on that. If a bidder withdraws his bid the AB remains would be grounded immediately by the LBA. There would be no real value in the remains as anyone could step in and grab what is left for free. Possibly not even an "Anschlusskonkurs" might be possible. Which in plain words would mean that no creditor gets anything.


I don't know if your reply was directed at Seahawk or me, but I am not counting on anything, hence the smiley ! Trying to make light of a really crappy situation here. For the previous poster, I think we have six EW A320 operating out of MUC all ex AB and all maintained by our great Air Berlin Technik, but for how long who knows ?
 
lancelot07
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:43 am

Delta777Jet wrote:
The 70m write off in Niki is then just a balance sheet issue which can be fixed in the moment LH is really buying Niki. My guess is , TuiFly need to find a new home for their expensive lease planes or need to reduce the price to a standard price. In other words no sponsorship for TuiFly any longer .

Well, yes, you can say it is a balance sheet issue. In reality, those 70m are proceeds from ticket sales. Niki has not received the receivables, but it has to pay the payables (operate the flights) - or go bust.
And then, Niki doesn't sell its tickets, and it does not have other necessary infrastructure for an airline. Basically, only an established airline like LH can take over Niki and keep operating. Someone like Woehrl or Lauda would have to build up the environment first. An no airline except LH ist bidding.

The easiest solution for this hole in the pocket and the TUI-leases ist insolvency of Niki, followed by an asset deal acquisition. Otherwise, why should TUI lower the leasing rates or cancel the contract?
 
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:52 am

PanHAM wrote:
The decision to favor LH and EZY was made by the creditors committee and they have Chosen the bidders who put the most Money into the insolvency mass. That includes the monies to Support the ops once the KfW loan is eaten up.

The decision can be appealed of course but that will take up further time. Not a good Thing as , if it takes too Long, bidders might walk away. No one can blame LH or any other contender for having worked out plans to be prepared once the obvious is going to happen. Matter of fact is, the LH board would have had a hard time to explain their owners why they would not have been prepared.


And the creditors committee is heavily tilted in LH´s favour. 3 members are logically pro LH or a have voiced support of LH. It is AB, LH themselves and the government.
 
lancelot07
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:58 am

seahawk wrote:
Well it is common knowledge that LH was working on plan for the insolvency of AB for over a year. Yes, they were prepared and that is why the proceeding seem dubious. A LH manager becomes CEO at AB only to do his master bidding. I call it criminal and I hope somebody will go to court over it. Wöhrl or FR should do this.

I don't believe anybody is surprised by AB going belly up. And LH could not possibly install one of theirs as CEO. That they prepared is good business practice. Easyjet seems to have done some preparations, too.
FR never seemed interested in the whole matter, and what would they do with an A320-fleet, anyway? But where are IAG and AF/KLM?

btw, there are AB-operated flights for OS, EW and LX out of Austria, too. And Niki has a large bill from SR technics, due soon. Niki is desparate for cash.
 
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:34 am

lancelot07 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Well it is common knowledge that LH was working on plan for the insolvency of AB for over a year. Yes, they were prepared and that is why the proceeding seem dubious. A LH manager becomes CEO at AB only to do his master bidding. I call it criminal and I hope somebody will go to court over it. Wöhrl or FR should do this.

I don't believe anybody is surprised by AB going belly up. And LH could not possibly install one of theirs as CEO. That they prepared is good business practice. Easyjet seems to have done some preparations, too.
FR never seemed interested in the whole matter, and what would they do with an A320-fleet, anyway? But where are IAG and AF/KLM?

btw, there are AB-operated flights for OS, EW and LX out of Austria, too. And Niki has a large bill from SR technics, due soon. Niki is desparate for cash.


The current airberlin CEO Thomas Winkelmann did come from a leading position within the LH Group. He had been with LH for 19 years, being the CEo of Germanwings and later the CEO of the Munich Hub while also representing LH in the board of directors at jetblue. And this guy left LH for airberlin in February of 2017 - does this sound legit to you?
 
PanHAM
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:57 am

I see nothing illegal in appointing Mr. Winkelmann as CEO of AB. He even got his salary secured by a bank guarantee. Somebody has to sweep up the mess others produced. It is not Lufthansas fault and as I said before, there is nothing wrong to be prepared for the obvious. This Action by LH BTW was the only way to put some value into AB. Other than by a secured voluntary insolvency there would be little or no value at all in AB.
LH has allready picked up almost 40 A320s from AB and secured these aircraft under a company umbrella they own. Obtaining another 20 or 40 aircraft plus several thousand employees needs financial strenght no one else has except the EU3. Now, neither IAG nor AFKL have popped up as contenders so far. May be they are speculating oon a complete failure so they can pick up the shambles. That could happen if LH would be hindered from buying what they want by a court decision. But all that is pure speculation. On Monday we will know more.
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vfw614
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:55 am

So, to sum it up and leave pipelines in New Zealand and German bank issues behind us, the situation is now as follows, according to various German media ources:

- Lufthansa group as one of the preferred bidders has bid for Niki to grow its Eurowings brand with more A32X that will be shifted by the lessors to Niki prior to a takeover

- easyjet as the other preferred bidder has bid for LGW to grow its BER business and enter the DUS market, including domestic flights to MUC and HAM, by taking over A32X hat will be shifted by the lessor to LGW prior to the takeover, most likely replacing all Q400s at LGW

- noone has bid for airberlin proper so that part of the group - the part with most expensive workforce - will be wound up. With most of the A32X aircraft shifted to Niki and LGW, it will probably mean only a core fleet of a few A32X (probably A319s) and the remaining A330-200s

- apparently there is one (German) bidder for belair that was slated to close down next month anyway. Information is very sketchy, though. It could be that this is simply one of the bidders who are interested in taking over airberlin as a whole and who have not been selected as preferred bidders.

- TUIfly has indicated that is prepared to operate some of the 13 Boeing 737 currently operating for airberlin in its own right. There is also some talk that Lufthansa will facilitate the placement of some of the aircraft with SunExpress. I guess in both scenarios we are talking about the 8 Boeing 737-800s, not the 5 Boeing 737-700 which will probably exit the market.

- talking about exiting the market, Jens Flottau in the Süddeutsche estimates that the capacity on the German market will be reduced by approximately 60 aircraft. That looks like a fair estimate. My guess is that the A320/321s will be distributed between Eurowings and easyjet, the 11 A319, 5 B737-700, 20 Q400, 17 A330-200 and probably some of the B737-800 will move to pastures new abroad.

- some A330-200s could, however, make a return if the rumour is correct that Lufthansa has already struck a deal with AerCap for some of them. If that is the case, it seems the most likely that they will end up with Brussels Airlines that will operate them under the Eurowings brand from DUS. Some of the lost longhaul capacity will also be replaced by Condor.

- one interesting question is what will happen to the regional flying airberlin has undertaken with the Q400s. On some domestic routes like DUS-GWT, DUS-STR, TXL-FKB, TXL-SCN or NUE-TXL or on niche routes like DUS-FLR or TXL-PRG there is no obvious alternative to the high-frequency, low capacity style operation or no sufficient demand to operate jets at least twice daily.
 
bennett123
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:09 pm

Has FR made any sort of offer at all.

IMO, put up or shut up.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:28 pm

seahawk wrote:
Well it is common knowledge that LH was working on plan for the insolvency of AB for over a year. Yes, they were prepared and that is why the proceeding seem dubious. A LH manager becomes CEO at AB only to do his master bidding. I call it criminal and I hope somebody will go to court over it. Wöhrl or FR should do this.

I don't see this as criminal. Clearly the AB board picked this manager knowing his background, and he could have been selected with the goal of forming an allegence with LH if not an outright takeover, and there's nothing illegal about that. The board picks the executives and as representatives of the shareholders (owners) they set the business goals, and if the executives don't do a good job, they get replaced. The board also has oversight responsibility and approves major transactions. In short, if the management was preparing AB for takeover by LH and the board didn't know of this, then they are not doing their job. But of course they've already done one major transaction with LH before insolvency, so it clearly fits their business plans.

The place where the white wash will be applied is the transfer of the slots. Those are public assets, and if anything underhanded is done, it can be challenged in court.

Perhaps that's what MOL is saving his energy for.
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:37 pm

There are plenty possible criminal acts. From a delayed insolvency to corruption on the government level by favouring LH.
 
filipair
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:03 pm

PanHAM wrote:
I see nothing illegal in appointing Mr. Winkelmann as CEO of AB.


No? You think that Herr Winkelmann has had the BEST intentions for Air Berlin? That his mission every day on the job was to help Air Berlin develop into a thriving, profitable, sustainable airline in the European marketplace?

When Abu Dhabi's execution at Air Berlin failed (in part thanks to LH-initiated, German protectionist moves like blocking the AB/EY codeshare), Etihad shacked up with the competition (LH) and this is what we have. A charade by LH to cherrypick what they want from AB. Lufty gets to avoid a merger (would be blocked), gets to avoid taking on AB's debt, and gets to avoid taking the less savory parts of the whole (aka DUS and TXL hub/longhaul flying) which served only to dilute yields in Frankfurt in Munich. Finally, LH group takes on 40 + 40 new narrowbody aircraft and continues to defend it's corner of the German marketplace. Brilliant and completely messed up at the same time.

I'm sickened to think this is how the supposedly "free market" is supposed to work. I'm sickened that public funds are - with blessings from the EU (aka Germany) - used to facilitate the smooth transition from AB to LH group.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:33 pm

@filipair - AB was a dead man Walking when Mr. Winkelmann took over to lead AB into a controlled insolvency That was the best possible deal for the remains of the Company. And, there is no delayed insolvency when the main owner and creditor cross signs for the losses. Only after EY pulled the plug, could insolvency be declared.
There was a de-facto code sharing for the TXL AUH flights which was not in accordance with the German/UAE bi-lateral. But the LBA was keeping a blind eye on that, we can assume with the knowledge and consent of the ministry. No German civil servant would risk his Pension on that.

No criminal action on side of the UAE as well, simply stupidity by burning billions on a Project that would obviously become a failure.

As long as the creditors committee can give a reasonable Explanation for ther decisions, there won't be much chance for legal action/appeals either.
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vfw614
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:36 pm

What would be the incentive for Mr. Winkelmann go to jail for Lufthansa?

I am pretty sure that he had sound legal advice to guarantee that he did not cross any red lines. Other than that, he probably did nothing to harm Lufthansa...

But honestly, it is not the first time that managers at an airline have been poached for a more senior position by a competitor. In airberlin's case, someone with inside knowledge of the German market was probably more important than someone with zero potential conflicts of interests because of his previous career in the industry.
 
lancelot07
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:08 pm

seahawk wrote:
The current airberlin CEO Thomas Winkelmann did come from a leading position within the LH Group. He had been with LH for 19 years, being the CEo of Germanwings and later the CEO of the Munich Hub while also representing LH in the board of directors at jetblue. And this guy left LH for airberlin in February of 2017 - does this sound legit to you?

The CEO is appointed by the supervisory board, which in turn is appointed by the AGM of the shareholders. LH does not hold any shares in AB.
Now how can LH have appointed him ? Not possible.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:38 pm

lancelot07 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The current airberlin CEO Thomas Winkelmann did come from a leading position within the LH Group. He had been with LH for 19 years, being the CEo of Germanwings and later the CEO of the Munich Hub while also representing LH in the board of directors at jetblue. And this guy left LH for airberlin in February of 2017 - does this sound legit to you?

The CEO is appointed by the supervisory board, which in turn is appointed by the AGM of the shareholders. LH does not hold any shares in AB.
Now how can LH have appointed him ? Not possible.


But EY could have appointed him to prepare AB for a take-over by LH and for which EY could get something in return - like codeshares with LH. So this could be a delayed insolvency. The awful favouritism of the "national champion" on the government side is worse though. The favouring of LH is outside any basic complaisance guidelines and hugely damaging for the customer in Germany and for Germany as a country.

It stinks of corruption and every person involved in this should be closely checked for possible personal benefits achieved through this deal.

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