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LTU330
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:25 pm

D-ALPB 27.09.2017 DUS to DGX at 11:00
D-ALPF 27.09.2017 DUS to DGX at 11:15

No idea why the flight today is cancelled. Probably a crew issue from the Leasing Company.
 
FSDan
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:32 pm

Irehdna wrote:
DUS will really lose a lot of US connections from this event. AFAIK the only DUS-USA that will still operate (and is not AB) is DL DUS-ATL. UA and AA don't operate there. However, I wouldn't be surprised if we see UA/AA start JFK/EWR/ORD-DUS soon.


LH will still fly EWR-DUS. I'm hoping LH/UA will bring back ORD-DUS at the very least, and someone should be able to make MIA-DUS work (AA?).
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KarelXWB
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:56 pm

LTU330 wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Two more A330 ferry flights are scheduled for today, bringing the fleet down to just 5 aircraft:

Airbus A330 -223 423 D-ALPB Air Berlin ferried 26sep17 DUS-DGX on return to lessor (+ 476 D-ALPF) ex F-WWYG


I guess that info is from Skyliners ? According to our AIMS System D-ALPB will ferry tomorrow (Wednesday) to DGX. D-ALPF goes today.


The date has been corrected at Skyliners:

Airbus A330 -223 432 D-ALPB Air Berlin to be ferried 27sep17 DUS-DGX on return to lessor (+ 476 D-ALPF) ex F-WWYG


D-ALPF goes today


It's 11pm and D-ALPF hasn't left yet.
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vfw614
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:10 pm

See above. They will depart tomorrow 11am'ish.
 
f4f3a
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:11 pm

Looks like according to rumours easyjet are interested in 28-30 aircraft . Would these all be in txl ? Are they likely to include belair a/c at zrh?
 
f4f3a
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:12 pm

Also looks like a330 finding new life at MAL
 
stlgph
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:17 pm

Looks like Small Planet smells blood in the water and may be looking to cherry pick a few routes from Berlin and Dusseldorf.

https://www.mcginleyaviation.com/divisi ... lines/276/
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LTU330
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:25 pm

Both D-ALPB and D-ALPF are out of the AIMS System now despite looking like they never left DUS. These are the two that should have gone to DGX this morning at 11:00 and 11:15. I have no way to know what is happening to them. Maybe someone in DUS has the info. Skyliners says they are planned for Thursday now. All the other Aircraft that went to ZRH and LDE showed in the System for the positioning flights.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:36 pm

Since no one is interested in DUS l/h and Easy not interested in DUS at all there must be Slots up foor grabs.

WasnÄt Norwegian interested to start Long haul from DUS?
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winterlight
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:11 pm

LH to use 744s on FRA-TXL during late November. Planing for the worst?
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f4f3a
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:14 pm

I wonder whether the deal would have to include u2 to operate out of dus for a set period to satisfy the comp authority's
 
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LTU330
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:38 am

winterlight wrote:
LH to use 744s on FRA-TXL during late November. Planing for the worst?


I don't understand "planning for the worst". Do you mean that they don't get what they want from Air Berlin ? The one thing that is absolutely certain is that Air Berlin will cease to exist, and basically they need to be kept operating until all the legal issues are resolved with the various deals announced on Monday. If this doesn't happen then Air Berlin just stops completely and all the Slots go back to the Airports. Then, the likes of Ryanair (if they had any Pilots) could jump in and grab many of them.

As Air Berlin only do four rotations on FRA - TXL compared to 18 per working day by Lufthansa, I think it is more likely related to having plenty of advance bookings for some reason, and therefore making use of 747s that would normally be sat on the ground all day. 747s have been used before on internal flights from time to time.
 
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LTU330
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:50 am

f4f3a wrote:
Also looks like a330 finding new life at MAL


Which operator is MAL ? I don't find that ICAO code for an Airline, only for an Airport code. I do see some FedEx flights in Canada using MAL flight numbers, but I can't imagine they are going to be an operator of A330s.
 
sf260
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:11 am

Malaysia Airlines
 
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LTU330
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:56 am

sf260 wrote:
Malaysia Airlines


Thanks for the clarification. I don't think MAL is the correct code, so that is what got me confused.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:59 am

LTU330 wrote:
sf260 wrote:
Malaysia Airlines


Thanks for the clarification. I don't think MAL is the correct code, so that is what got me confused.


MH / MAS
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:04 am

MAB would be correct as well (Malaysia Airlines Berhad).
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steman
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:12 am

FSDan wrote:
Irehdna wrote:
DUS will really lose a lot of US connections from this event. AFAIK the only DUS-USA that will still operate (and is not AB) is DL DUS-ATL. UA and AA don't operate there. However, I wouldn't be surprised if we see UA/AA start JFK/EWR/ORD-DUS soon.


LH will still fly EWR-DUS. I'm hoping LH/UA will bring back ORD-DUS at the very least, and someone should be able to make MIA-DUS work (AA?).


LH is starting DUS-MIA as well as TXL-JFK with A330s. I don´t know the DUS-MIA frequency but TXL-JFK will be 5xw from Nov 8th.
The last time LH operated long haul from Berlin was 16 years ago to IAD. This is really a surprise.
I expected Eurowings to base a couple of 330s in TXL and cover the gaps left by air berlin, but not LH own metal.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:15 am

The LH service is only temporary until EW takes over.
 
steman
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:28 am

seahawk wrote:
The LH service is only temporary until EW takes over.


So it´s probably because EW does not have any spare A330s to put on these routes? Funny...air berlin used to have 17 of them and now most are stored and looking for a new home. Initially, when air berlin declared insolvency, LH claimed to be interested in all long haul frames as well as most A32x. Then they changed their mind and now they´re only taking about 60 A32x and all the Dash8s.
 
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LTU330
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:51 am

steman wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The LH service is only temporary until EW takes over.


So it´s probably because EW does not have any spare A330s to put on these routes? Funny...air berlin used to have 17 of them and now most are stored and looking for a new home. Initially, when air berlin declared insolvency, LH claimed to be interested in all long haul frames as well as most A32x. Then they changed their mind and now they´re only taking about 60 A32x and all the Dash8s.


Fantastic way for LH/EWG to fly some of the AB long haul routes without having to take on the ex LTU Pilots. I am thinking that this could end up in a court case unless LH/EWG say that the flights are only short term to fulfill already booked AB flights that cease after 15th October. This looks more like a stitch up every day that passes. I am no fan of what the Pilots did the other week with mass sickness, but this really does look like just a way to avoid taking on certain contracts. With communications within Air Berlin saying it is imperative that everyone carries on working as normal to prevent all jobs being lost, I wonder now if this will happen when a great many already have an idea that they are stuffed anyway. I hope the operation continues but I can see more problems ahead with details like this emerging now.

Edit: The reason I am thinking of potential court cases is because LH Group stated they had no interest in taking ANY long haul routes, yet four days later announce DUS - MIA and TXL - JFK !
 
LTenEleven
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:52 am

The LH Group will be able to do what they want between Cologne and Berlin with Ryanair dropping the route for the winter.
 
f4f3a
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:57 am

Sorry typo auto correct !
 
juliuswong
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:12 am

steman wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The LH service is only temporary until EW takes over.


So it´s probably because EW does not have any spare A330s to put on these routes? Funny...air berlin used to have 17 of them and now most are stored and looking for a new home. Initially, when air berlin declared insolvency, LH claimed to be interested in all long haul frames as well as most A32x. Then they changed their mind and now they´re only taking about 60 A32x and all the Dash8s.

Six of the 17 A332 are now going to Malaysia Airlines. First will be delivered before end of 2017. 19J 287Y set up vs. airBerlin 19J 271Y set up. This will leave 11 A332s unemployed for now. To be honest I don't see LH mainline taking up PW-powered A332 since they have retired their A332 fleet long time ago, EW are now using GE-powered and SN is replacing their current oldies with RR powered. I will be surprised if LH does take up those A332s.

Sidenote, seems like AerCap is having a bad week. airBerlin on verge of collapse and VIM Airlines (which leases many of their jets) is about to bite the dust too.
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KarelXWB
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:21 am

juliuswong wrote:
Sidenote, seems like AerCap is having a bad week. airBerlin on verge of collapse and VIM Airlines (which leases many of their jets) is about to bite the dust too.


Not sure if I would call it a bad week. AerCap has like 1,000 aircraft in its portfolio and performs about 100 aircraft transactions quarterly. It's their business, so handeling a few A330s shouldn't be much of a problem.
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juliuswong
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:32 am

KarelXWB wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
Sidenote, seems like AerCap is having a bad week. airBerlin on verge of collapse and VIM Airlines (which leases many of their jets) is about to bite the dust too.


Not sure if I would call it a bad week. AerCap has like 1,000 aircraft in its portfolio and performs about 100 aircraft transactions quarterly. It's their business, so handeling a few A330s shouldn't be much of a problem.

True that, I agree with you KarelXWB. I was thinking of more of the due payment by these airlines. I guess they have sufficient insurance to cover or minimise losses. They have thousands of aircraft in their portfolio and have been in business long enough for these situation. Just did a quick check with planespotters.net, there are now many unemployed A332s. I have a soft spot for A330 family.
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PanHAM
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:40 am

I don't know what LH actually said concerning l/h routes. In Germany, no one can be forced into a contract, ith some exceptions. Such exception could bo honoring legacy Labor contracxts,like the LTU pilots. Needless to say what that would mean for EW. The easiest way to avoid such Trouble is to say no. They will operate a handfull of former AB l/h routes at best with different aircraft and different pilots.

Another matter, how can you blame a carrier (LH) for "doing ehat they want" on TXL CGN when no one else wants to compete? FR is just o the way to learn the reality of Labor Relations outside Ireland, no wonder they drop thier only German domestic route. TUI or Germania could step in but same here, no one can force them.
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seahawk
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:48 am

LTU330 wrote:
steman wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The LH service is only temporary until EW takes over.


So it´s probably because EW does not have any spare A330s to put on these routes? Funny...air berlin used to have 17 of them and now most are stored and looking for a new home. Initially, when air berlin declared insolvency, LH claimed to be interested in all long haul frames as well as most A32x. Then they changed their mind and now they´re only taking about 60 A32x and all the Dash8s.


Fantastic way for LH/EWG to fly some of the AB long haul routes without having to take on the ex LTU Pilots. I am thinking that this could end up in a court case unless LH/EWG say that the flights are only short term to fulfill already booked AB flights that cease after 15th October. This looks more like a stitch up every day that passes. I am no fan of what the Pilots did the other week with mass sickness, but this really does look like just a way to avoid taking on certain contracts. With communications within Air Berlin saying it is imperative that everyone carries on working as normal to prevent all jobs being lost, I wonder now if this will happen when a great many already have an idea that they are stuffed anyway. I hope the operation continues but I can see more problems ahead with details like this emerging now.

Edit: The reason I am thinking of potential court cases is because LH Group stated they had no interest in taking ANY long haul routes, yet four days later announce DUS - MIA and TXL - JFK !


There is absolutely no legal reason for LH to not open former AB routes using their own resources, regardless of the outcome of the insolvency proceedings at AB. If they have the slots, the planes and the crews, they can do as they please and the airports will have a healthy interest in keeping those connections.AB longhaul is not interesting for LH. The contracts of the personal are too expensive and the planes do not really fit the fleet either. LH could more easily return some A346 from storage and free up some A330/A343 for use in DUS/TXL.
 
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LTU330
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:07 am

PanHAM wrote:
I don't know what LH actually said concerning l/h routes. In Germany, no one can be forced into a contract, ith some exceptions. Such exception could bo honoring legacy Labor contracxts,like the LTU pilots. Needless to say what that would mean for EW. The easiest way to avoid such Trouble is to say no. They will operate a handfull of former AB l/h routes at best with different aircraft and different pilots.

Another matter, how can you blame a carrier (LH) for "doing ehat they want" on TXL CGN when no one else wants to compete? FR is just o the way to learn the reality of Labor Relations outside Ireland, no wonder they drop thier only German domestic route. TUI or Germania could step in but same here, no one can force them.


That is what I mean if LH decided to pretend they are not interested in ex AB long haul routes just to avoid having to take on the old LTU contracts fro one year. The job of the insolvency people is to ensure maximum effectivity of the transfer not only for the shareholders but also the employees of AB. It seems to me that LH not including long haul, but then operating those same routes goes behind the back of the insolvency team and does in fact not work in favor of a group of the employees unless this was all pre agreed, as AB also have to protect as far as possible the interests of their 8000 personnel by taking the offer that provides the best option for all the people, as opposed to some of the people and not just what the shareholders or LH want.

This is just my opinion based on what my German colleagues have told me with regards to priorities in an insolvency being to save as many jobs as possible. So, in theory, any offer to take full control of AB with all employees, no matter how improbable, would be the better option in that respect.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:28 am

The point is, no one else applied for the long haul Services. LH has the equipment, the personell and the authority to operate these two routes which are a fraction of what AB operated. More to that, likely Norwegian will step in once the dust has settled and take what it wants for free

Basically, the whole insolvecy mass are soft assets except may be Leisure Cargo and Technik

Just adding - no one entered a bid for the full Company, with a good reason, they would have had to take over an inefficient cost structure that would have prouced losses for another couple of years. That might have woked 10 years ago.
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LTU330
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:40 am

PanHAM wrote:
The point is, no one else applied for the long haul Services. LH has the equipment, the personell and the authority to operate these two routes which are a fraction of what AB operated. More to that, likely Norwegian will step in once the dust has settled and take what it wants for free

Basically, the whole insolvecy mass are soft assets except may be Leisure Cargo and Technik


Quite true PanHAM, I heard before that Norwegian would start out of DUS with long haul. A definite money maker would be RSW for them. As for Technik, LH have no interest in that whatsoever. It's all part of outsourcing as much as possible. LH already decided that their own Technik should be cheaper than it is already cost wise. Bean counters don't understand that Maintenance costs money if you want the Aircraft to stay airborne, and eventually if you cut your costs too much, usually involving pay cuts, you will lose your best people.
 
a320fan
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:59 pm

I haven't followed this situation closely, but what is the current status with Air Berlin and is it safe to book a flight for within the next few days?

I find myself in Berlin and want to head to Munich on Monday. LH are well over €200, AB under €100, cheaper than most trains, and I really don't fancy another 7 hour couch trip.
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LTU330
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:36 pm

a320fan wrote:
I haven't followed this situation closely, but what is the current status with Air Berlin and is it safe to book a flight for within the next few days?

I find myself in Berlin and want to head to Munich on Monday. LH are well over €200, AB under €100, cheaper than most trains, and I really don't fancy another 7 hour couch trip.


Book the flight. It will operate unless the crew get sick, and if it was cancelled you get your money back and compensation that would cover the cost of the LH ticket :)
 
f4f3a
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:06 pm

Buy it on credit card you should be insured .
When is the decision likely . Oct 12 has been mentioned but the sooner better for all concerned to know
 
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AlexA340B777
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:05 am

flightradar24 now showing leaving DUS today, 29.9.:

D-ALPB: 14:00 local time
D-ALPF: 14:30 local time
6 continents, 85 countries, 730 flights, 88 airlines, 37 aircraft types
 
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AlexA340B777
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:31 pm

PF... is on the way, just took off. Sad to see another one is going
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AlexA340B777
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:38 pm

and now there goes Papa Bravo as well.
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KarelXWB
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:02 pm

D-ALPB and D-ALPF on the way to DGX for storage:

Image
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AlexA340B777
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:48 pm

... seems both heading for Shannon, Ireland
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f4f3a
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:21 pm

According to travel weekly expected Lufthansa to take 3000 out of 8000 staff. Easyjet to operated crews and bases out of dus and txl. Not sure on the maths but seems short of 80% re employment . Apparently pilots being offered 30% less than current contracts unions say
 
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LTU330
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:00 am

Still not a single word about if there is anything planned for the people based in MUC, like 200 plus Technik and all the crews and admin. It seems like we don’t exist in the minds of our Management team :(
 
DUSZRH
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:30 pm

Only E2 is advertising jobs so far for the wetleases they plan to integrate. Otherwise, I see don't see anything positive on the horizon. U2 will probably not take on a basis in MUC and LH won't be able to (competition reasons). Hence the cutting of the MUC-CGN/HAM flights. If they will operate night-stops (U2), I doubt it.
 
f4f3a
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:40 pm

Well u2 do nightstops so it's a possibility . They also have a small presence In muc . I
Imagine negotiations are to get parties to take as much as possible . What is left will I'm sure be offered to other parties
 
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LTU330
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:46 am

A lot of people on here complained about the loan given to Air Berlin, saying it was not legal. It is legal and will be paid back. I just read on the BBC News that the repatriation flights for Monarch will cost £60 Million. With Air Berlin being three times the size of Monarch it looks like Germany did it the right way, as they will get the loan back, paid from the LH/U2 bids. On top of that, all Monarch flights got cancelled immediately. Air Berlin carried on operating, thereby ensuring that a lot of people who had paid for flights actually got to fly as opposed to the Monarch passengers simply being told your flight will not operate. Structured insolvency seems like a good idea for an Airline after all.
 
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:24 am

LTU330 wrote:
A lot of people on here complained about the loan given to Air Berlin, saying it was not legal. It is legal and will be paid back. I just read on the BBC News that the repatriation flights for Monarch will cost £60 Million. With Air Berlin being three times the size of Monarch it looks like Germany did it the right way, as they will get the loan back, paid from the LH/U2 bids. On top of that, all Monarch flights got cancelled immediately. Air Berlin carried on operating, thereby ensuring that a lot of people who had paid for flights actually got to fly as opposed to the Monarch passengers simply being told your flight will not operate. Structured insolvency seems like a good idea for an Airline after all.


An interesting point. The very small number of airline insolvencies compared with other insolvencies mitigates against special legislation for airlines, certainly in the UK. The UK CAA (Civil Aviation Authority) has a big pot of cash accumulated from years of collecting premiums from the UK travel industry without many insolvencies to be paid out. These premiums have in effect been paid by the traveling public in the price of their Air Travel Organisers' Licence (ATOL) insurance policy.

The ATOL scheme was and remains intended for package holidays. Folk who buy their own airline tickets, accommodation etc separately do not pay the insurance premium and thus are not covered by the ATOL insurance. In this instance, the CAA is bringing folk back to the UK who were flying with Monarch, whether they were on a package holiday or not.

The CAA deals with the mechanics of chartering aeroplanes and thus creating a short lived one purpose 'airline'. Presumably CAA internal management costs will also come out of the pot of cash. So the UK scheme is privately financed, optional to the purchaser, and not using government money at all. This may or may not be the best scheme for others, but for us in the UK it works well.
 
Andy33
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:54 am

Up to mid-December last year, people who bought Monarch tickets without an associated package holiday were also in scope to the ATOL scheme because of the way the Monarch group was structured. As Monarch sold flights by season, not on a rolling date basis, there will be ATOL-protected flight-only passengers who bought tickets for October 2017 - not all that many, but some.
Monarch was also heavily used by small and medium sized package tour operators (and even very large ones) as the flight portion of their packages. These too are ATOL protected, on the ATOL certificates of the companies putting the packages together. Technically repatriating these passengers would be the responsibility of the tour operators, but practically speaking they may not have the resources to do so, and there might not be enough capacity on the remaining scheduled flights on some routes. If the cost of repatriating these people forces some tour operators into insolvency in turn, that cost will fall on ATOL anyway.
 
f4f3a
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:25 am

I think the uk could do with a chapter 11 style rule . It would have saved a lot of money and stress . This happened with excel and is not good for anyone
 
f4f3a
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:37 pm

Any more news on the sale of air berlin ?
 
A350900
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Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:44 pm

f4f3a wrote:
Any more news on the sale of air berlin ?


Various german forums report that the airline will end all operations on 27/28OCT17, the last days of S17.
 
f4f3a
Posts: 558
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:07 am

Re: Air Berlin has filed for insolvency

Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:59 pm

Wow that's not far away expected deal with easy and Lufthansa to be announced already . One latest thread news says easy will launch berlin to Munich Stuttgart and Düsseldorf if deal goes through

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