GianiDC
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:13 am

LTU330 wrote:
bmibaby737 wrote:
I wish you all the best LTU330!

The aircraft going to VIE, these are for Niki?


It is possible that they go to VIE for Easyjet on their Austrian AOC, but it is also possible they are for Eurowings Austria. I will know on Monday.


At the moment there are 3 transfer flights to VIE including one from Belair from ZRH in the air. Another one is about to land in SNN.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:45 am

Great News. the pilots union VC has rejected the new contract for Eurowings and has blocked the extension of EW with AB assets.

http://www.airliners.de/vc-eurowings-ta ... gung/42773

So maybe LH will not get the assets on a silver tablet.
 
hayzel777
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:43 am

seahawk wrote:
Great News. the pilots union VC has rejected the new contract for Eurowings and has blocked the extension of EW with AB assets.

http://www.airliners.de/vc-eurowings-ta ... gung/42773

So maybe LH will not get the assets on a silver tablet.

Why is this great news?
 
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seahawk
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:54 am

Because the pilot´s union is fighting against a LH monopoly in Germany. Which would allow them to dictate work contracts and also ticket prices (which is no concern of the pilots though).
 
PanHAM
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:12 am

When you fight your employer you will be out of a Job in the long run.. Keeping old coontracts alive, which do not hold up with reality, was one of the many reasons for the demise of AB. Pilots cannot repeat mistakes, Managers can. and that is why Spohr and Co do a brilliant Job in avoiding the many mistakes of Hunold and Co.
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Noshow
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:15 am

I fully agree.
 
aerogt3
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:49 am

seahawk wrote:
So maybe LH will not get the assets on a silver tablet.


Whether they get them on a silver tablet or pay dearly for them is of little consequence when they'll effectively have a monopoly in DACH afterwards. Any acquisition difficulties will easily be offset by sky high ticket prices.
 
f4f3a
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:49 am

I see easyjet have agreed deal with Verdi to take on 1000 Air Berlin staff . 300 pilots 700 cc
 
columba
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:54 am

Former Air Berlin and LTU employees thinking of starting a new airline under the LTU brand name - Hans Rudolf Wöhrl is named as one possible investor.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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LTU330
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:03 am

PanHAM wrote:
When you fight your employer you will be out of a Job in the long run.. Keeping old coontracts alive, which do not hold up with reality, was one of the many reasons for the demise of AB. Pilots cannot repeat mistakes, Managers can. and that is why Spohr and Co do a brilliant Job in avoiding the many mistakes of Hunold and Co.


AB demise had absolutely nothing to do with salaries. It had everything to do with stupid contracts like TUI, stupid lease rates, stupid BER fiasco, stupid pricing system of tickets and very very poor are looking for a new job. Did you see the open letter from Eurowings Austria staff ? A Captain with many years of seniority takes home 3000 Euro netto per month because you have no fixed hours. I’m sorry, and I am no fan of Pilots in general, but that is sickening, and that is the contract they want AB people to be signed to. 100% certain that AB Pilots will get more money sat at home with Arbeitslossunggeld.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:10 am

seahawk wrote:
Great News. the pilots union VC has rejected the new contract for Eurowings and has blocked the extension of EW with AB assets.

http://www.airliners.de/vc-eurowings-ta ... gung/42773

So maybe LH will not get the assets on a silver tablet.


Interesting as for the past few days Eurowings DUS-GLA service, normally on an EW A320 has been operated by a fully liveried Air Berlin Q400 instead.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:22 pm

LTU330 wrote:
AB demise had absolutely nothing to do with salaries. It had everything to do with stupid contracts like TUI, stupid lease rates, stupid BER fiasco, stupid pricing system of tickets and very very poor are looking for a new job. Did you see the open letter from Eurowings Austria staff ? A Captain with many years of seniority takes home 3000 Euro netto per month because you have no fixed hours. I’m sorry, and I am no fan of Pilots in general, but that is sickening, and that is the contract they want AB people to be signed to. 100% certain that AB Pilots will get more money sat at home with Arbeitslossunggeld.

It's funny to read here how people should just accept the terms and conditions that are offered to them, as if some of these posters would gladly turn over large percentages of their income and suffer inferior work conditions just because they are asked.

It's also funny to see airlines like WN where they can offer good fares and good pay to employees while making lots of profit, yet all these excuses for poorly managed airlines with bloated high salary management.
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PanHAM
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:21 pm

@Revelation - I'm self employed running my own Company since almost 30 years. It would not have been possible without living in the real world. Your remark regarding WN, I have seen these pilots load freight into the bellies.
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leghorn
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:18 am

https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article1 ... luege.html

as expected flight prices go up after Lufthansa take over Air Berlin.

Prices up to 300% higher being recorded according to a report I heard on TV this morning.
Most were up between 20 and 30%

Flight prices in Germany were already high and now that the low cost carriers have been locked out of the market they are not going to drop.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:51 am

You should Report the full Story. Fact is, due to cartel ivestigation, some 80 former AB aircraft are grounded, taken off the market. In a market economy, that increases the Price for the product.
CEO Spohr intents for LH to put 1000 aditional flights per month on the market provided the cartel authorties approve that. Furthermore, Easy will be a market Player then, competing on domestic trunk routes. Prices will go down then.

No one is locked out from the German market, Ryanair just did not want to compete, although they had Slots., Now, you can take a horse to the well you can't make it drink.
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seahawk
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:54 am

leghorn wrote:
https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article170575886/Horrender-Preisaufschlag-auf-Dezember-Fluege.html

as expected flight prices go up after Lufthansa take over Air Berlin.

Prices up to 300% higher being recorded according to a report I heard on TV this morning.
Most were up between 20 and 30%

Flight prices in Germany were already high and now that the low cost carriers have been locked out of the market they are not going to drop.


And that is the argument why the take over by LH must not be allowed.
 
leghorn
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:53 am

PanHAM wrote:
No one is locked out from the German market, Ryanair just did not want to compete, although they had Slots..


No mention of anyone other than Lufthansa and their partner in crime Easyjet in this report. Your definition of an open market is different to everyone else's.
http://www.handelsblatt.com/video/unter ... 79066.html
 
leghorn
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:11 pm

pompos wrote:
I think if you want to make a fair assessment whether Lufthansa is using this for price hikes or not, you need to wait a couple of months for the chaos to settle.
I had to pay much more for EU flights to Berlin in November than anytime before. These flights were with BA, Ryanair, Easyjet and Eurowings.

it is only 14th November. What dates? if it was the first week then the long 5 day weekend explains it.
 
pompos
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:12 pm

I think if you want to make a fair assessment whether Lufthansa is using this for price hikes or not, you need to wait a couple of months for the chaos to settle.
I had to pay much more for EU flights to Berlin in November than anytime before. These flights were with BA, Ryanair, Easyjet and Eurowings.
 
LH779
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:44 pm

leghorn wrote:
PanHAM wrote:
No one is locked out from the German market, Ryanair just did not want to compete, although they had Slots..


No mention of anyone other than Lufthansa and their partner in crime Easyjet in this report. Your definition of an open market is different to everyone else's.
http://www.handelsblatt.com/video/unter ... 79066.html


The first part is about the increased prices and the second part mentions that most of the ex-AB aircraft are grounded. Then they mention that LH and Easy want to take over those grounded aircraft. Why should they talk about Ryanair? They are not involved in the deal and cancelled their only domestic route in Germany (CGN-SXF) a few weeks ago.
 
leghorn
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:27 pm

LH779 wrote:
Why should they talk about Ryanair?

Ask PahHam. I didn't introduce them to the conversation.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:19 am

Obviously, there is no one ready, able and willing to fill the void left by the demise of AB. No carrier except LH and U2,. The present Situation is not caused by LH or U2 but a result of the AB Crash. Since Germany is ruled by the law, the law must be folowed and that includes the grounding of some 80 aircraft. Seems to be difficult to understandm but neither LH nor U2 can circumvent the ruling of the cartel boards. Like it or not, that is the Situation. The good side is, that routes like FRA to TXL and HAM might get more competition omce the dust has settled.
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LH982
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:08 am

Had to pay €360 For STR-HAM next week, so it looks like LH are busily making hay while the sun shines.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:45 am

I read a different opinion this morning. The fares in the various fare categories did not increase, the high demand simply makes the low fare categories sold out sooner. The STR-HAM fare, is that one way or return? For example, a DB rail ticket 2d class without Bahncard can be around € 300 return. Both LH and DB work with yield Management Systems and LH is keen not to destroy Goodwill.
t
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Kilopond
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:59 am

PanHAM wrote:
Obviously, there is no one ready, able and willing to fill the void left by the demise of AB.[...]


With the only exception of the tiny Luxair: they are wet-leasing an Adria Airways CRJ700 in order to operate Saarbrüclen SCN - Berlin TXL from January.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... ght=Luxair
 
mxaxai
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:49 am

PanHAM wrote:
I read a different opinion this morning. The fares in the various fare categories did not increase, the high demand simply makes the low fare categories sold out sooner. The STR-HAM fare, is that one way or return? For example, a DB rail ticket 2d class without Bahncard can be around € 300 return. Both LH and DB work with yield Management Systems and LH is keen not to destroy Goodwill.
t

Cheapest fare next week is 49,99 € one way. That are the flights around noon. A typical work schedule, departing in the morning and returning in the evening can easily be 300+ € one way. Monday morning's first three flights are nearly completely sold out, particularly ex-HAM.
That isn't completely new though. It wasn't unusual to pay that much for a short notice intra-german flight even when AB still existed. It is also probably the reason why Eurowings can afford to fly some routes at less than 50% load factor.

I do wonder why none of the other LCC dare to penetrate the market. They should be able to undercut Eurowings easily.
 
leghorn
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Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:59 am

    PanHAM wrote:
    I read a different opinion this morning. The fares in the various fare categories did not increase, the high demand simply makes the low fare categories sold out sooner. The STR-HAM fare, is that one way or return? For example, a DB rail ticket 2d class without Bahncard can be around € 300 return. Both LH and DB work with yield Management Systems and LH is keen not to destroy Goodwill.
    t

    They'd have sold far fewer of those high fares and have lower plane occupancy if there were competition. This appears to be the Economics Monopoly Nirvana of both deciding how much service to provide and dictating which price the customer will pay. Most Monopolies can decide one or the other but not both.
     
    PanHAM
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    Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

    Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:11 pm

    Lufthansa has an involuntary Monopoly, that seems to be not understood. There's Little LH can do about that. Puttig a million seats at return fares under € 100 on the market may be an act of Goodwill but it won't make everyone happy. Least not those who see dark powers at work. Can't help them anyhow.
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    Revelation
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    Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

    Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:25 pm

    PanHAM wrote:
    Lufthansa has an involuntary Monopoly, that seems to be not understood. There's Little LH can do about that. Puttig a million seats at return fares under € 100 on the market may be an act of Goodwill but it won't make everyone happy. Least not those who see dark powers at work. Can't help them anyhow.

    No dark powers, it's daylight robbery. Angie flies to Qatar to sort things, the slush fund bank keeps AB alive so LH can cherry pick the assets, LH apologists lament LH's involontary monopoly that prints money, and everything comes up roses in Angie-land.
    Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
    The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
    Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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    Andy33
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    Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

    Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:01 pm

    Revelation wrote:
    No dark powers, it's daylight robbery. Angie flies to Qatar to sort things, the slush fund bank keeps AB alive so LH can cherry pick the assets, LH apologists lament LH's involontary monopoly that prints money, and everything comes up roses in Angie-land.


    Qatar? Wouldn't she have flown to Abu Dhabi?
    And flying between the two is a little difficult right now so realising you had the wrong Gulf state could cause an international incident.
     
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    Revelation
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    Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

    Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:04 pm

    Andy33 wrote:
    Qatar? Wouldn't she have flown to Abu Dhabi?
    And flying between the two is a little difficult right now so realising you had the wrong Gulf state could cause an international incident.

    Thanks for pouncing on what clearly was a brain fart. It speaks volumes.
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    seahawk
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    Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

    Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:13 pm

    PanHAM wrote:
    Lufthansa has an involuntary Monopoly, that seems to be not understood. There's Little LH can do about that. Puttig a million seats at return fares under € 100 on the market may be an act of Goodwill but it won't make everyone happy. Least not those who see dark powers at work. Can't help them anyhow.


    There is a simple solution, make the AB slots available to any interested airline. FR would be flying within 4 week and bring cheap tickets to the German market.
     
    PanHAM
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    Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

    Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:33 pm

    Did you read this thread? FR had the Chance, they went hiding. They are not interested and so is obviously Germania, Norwegian etc,
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    seahawk
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    Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

    Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:01 pm

    They only had no interest to participate in the ploy that was the government controlled handover of AB to LH.
     
    Luxair747SP
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    Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

    Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:15 pm

    seahawk wrote:
    There is a simple solution, make the AB slots available to any interested airline. FR would be flying within 4 week and bring cheap tickets to the German market.


    Ryanair had the chance to fill these gaps, and the still have its but for many routes like the domestic shuttles they aren't interested. Even now it seems the have problems out of FRA, as their fares are often considerably higher than from other airports.
    If no other airline is managed well enough to make domestic german work, or no other EU airline is willing to step in, then let it be so.

    Most people on the domestic routes are travelling for business anyway and need flights to their schedules, and I doubt FR would be willing to fly hourly 3/4 empty between FRA, MUC, HAM, TXL, DUS. It just isn't their business model.
     
    PanHAM
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    Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

    Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:46 am

    seahawk wrote:
    They only had no interest to participate in the ploy that was the government controlled handover of AB to LH.


    Rubbish.. The Government cannot control a bankruptcy procedure, that is a legal process which has to be followed step by step.

    Besides that, I suggest you read Luair747SP's contribution. He is right, FR is not the Messias ad their rates offered from FRA are often 10x higher than what they Quote from HHN. A real Airline like LH won't have much of a Problem to compete.
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    seahawk
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    Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

    Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:10 am

    Well, then give the slots to FR, so they can actually compete.
     
    PanHAM
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    Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

    Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:06 am

    Thw< HAVE Slots at FRA, it's their choice to use these slots and how..
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    EIDL
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    Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

    Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:21 am

    seahawk wrote:
    Well, then give the slots to FR, so they can actually compete.


    FR are pulling flights system wide due to crew shortages - they don't have the capacity to use the slots they already have!
     
    DUSZRH
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    Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

    Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:53 am

    They even pulled SXF-CGN with AB out of the market.

    And I there is the question, how fast can the void be filled. Look at Easyjet. They plan to take a year to get their 25 planes running.
     
    leghorn
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    Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

    Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:47 am

    Was watching Volle Kanne on TV this morning. They had a report on former Air Berlin married couple workers who were very unhappy with the conditions of employment offered for Eurowings.

    If the deal hasn't benefitted the Consumers, Creditors or Employers then quid pro quo.

    They closed off the piece by mentioning that people are buying paintings for 450m dollars and football players for 222million euro and Lufthansa get a stranglehold on the German market for only €210m..and all done at a time of full employment in Germany when it would be less of a political landmine to let the market work freely.
     
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    sergegva
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    Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

    Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:38 pm

    Seemingly, indiGo is going to receive two A320 previously operated by AirBerlin: ex- D-ABFH & D-ABFK, both 7 years old.
     
    spacecookie
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    Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

    Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:02 pm

    leghorn wrote:
    Was watching Volle Kanne on TV this morning. They had a report on former Air Berlin married couple workers who were very unhappy with the conditions of employment offered for Eurowings.

    If the deal hasn't benefitted the Consumers, Creditors or Employers then quid pro quo.

    They closed off the piece by mentioning that people are buying paintings for 450m dollars and football players for 222million euro and Lufthansa get a stranglehold on the German market for only €210m..and all done at a time of full employment in Germany when it would be less of a political landmine to let the market work freely.


    futball has nothing to do with airlines
    by the way this 222 player was paid with dirty money (in my point of view)

    AB was a bad managed company so there is no mucho value you can add to this, beside of slots.
    LH did well using AB crew and planes as wetlease to get by.
    Competition is tuff out there, with Ryanair in FRA etc etc etc
     
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    Jayafe
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    Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

    Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:26 pm

    leghorn wrote:
    They closed off the piece by mentioning that people are buying paintings for 450m dollars and football players for 222million euro and Lufthansa get a stranglehold on the German market for only €210m..and all done at a time of full employment in Germany when it would be less of a political landmine to let the market work freely.


    How many hungry people in Africa could you feed with all the money you waste in a computer or an internet connection? Such a logic man
     
    PanHAM
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    Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

    Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:40 am

    To set matters straight, LH invests about 1.5 Billion € in that deal, and that does not include possible start-up costs.. But such nitty gritty stuff is not known in the TV Format mentioned.. I've said it before and I repeaz it as often as needed, the Monopoly Situation in which LH finds itself is involuntary. There is simply no Airline that is willling, ready and able to compete, Or, to say it with the TV Format, all empty can.
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    seahawk
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    Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

    Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:54 am

    Then the government must make sure that the conditions allow for competition.
     
    PanHAM
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    Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

    Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:04 am

    You mean by recruiting Airlines with force and condem them to fly domestic German routes?
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    anstar
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    Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

    Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:31 am

    leghorn wrote:
    Was watching Volle Kanne on TV this morning. They had a report on former Air Berlin married couple workers who were very unhappy with the conditions of employment offered for Eurowings.


    Well I guess no one is forcing them to go and work for eurowings. Perhaps they can go and apply for easyJet or Ryanair... oh wait - they will probably find that they are unhappy with those conditions as well.
     
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    LTU330
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    Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

    Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:52 am

    anstar wrote:
    leghorn wrote:
    Was watching Volle Kanne on TV this morning. They had a report on former Air Berlin married couple workers who were very unhappy with the conditions of employment offered for Eurowings.


    Well I guess no one is forcing them to go and work for eurowings. Perhaps they can go and apply for easyJet or Ryanair... oh wait - they will probably find that they are unhappy with those conditions as well.


    The issue is that in Employment Law in Germany - if you are working for a company that has parts taken over by another company - then you are entitled to have the same contract conditions for one year. Lufthansa and Eurowings try to get round that by actually not taking on any people, and then just advertising new job openings on the Eurowings Austria company for people going to be working for Eurowings Germany. Firstly, I can understand their grievance, and secondly what LH/EWG are doing by trying to avoid the transfer of people goes completely against everything that the normal press report with regards to the "National Champion" saving thousands of AB jobs. They saved no jobs. ANY person from anywhere who has the right to work in Europe can apply for these positions. They are not only available for ex AB staff. Now, I don't want to get in to any politics about labour costs, but these are contracts that are INDIVIDUALLY offered. So, let's see: Person "A" (ex AB) applies and would like to get something close to what they got at AB, so let's say they want 13 Euro/Hour. Then, Person "B" (someone from Latvia) applies, and they will work for 10 Euro/Hour. Who do they take ? The person from Latvia (only an example, please don't flame me for this) might share an apartment with several colleagues to cut down costs. The ex AB person, most likely being German probably already has a family and fixed costs that were based around there AB income, and AB was not paying the people in Gold Bars (except some former LTU Captains of course). The worst is that LH/EWG would only have to honour the old contract for ONE Year. That would have created a massive amount of good will, and really it would have cost them nothing in the long run as a lot of the AB staff where already flying for EWG and would not require any additional training.
     
    leghorn
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    Re: Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

    Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:40 am

    anstar wrote:
    leghorn wrote:
    Was watching Volle Kanne on TV this morning. They had a report on former Air Berlin married couple workers who were very unhappy with the conditions of employment offered for Eurowings.


    Well I guess no one is forcing them to go and work for eurowings. Perhaps they can go and apply for easyJet or Ryanair... oh wait - they will probably find that they are unhappy with those conditions as well.

    This couple in this report were married and the previous terms and conditions gave them a good quality of life allowing at least one of them to be avaiable to tend to their children which is no longer offered so as employees they aren't benefitting and they were working on the assumption one of them would need to find a new job to minimize the impact on their family.
    Employees don't appear to be doing especially well out of a deal which only exists because the Employees' interests should be looked after.

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