dfwjim1
Topic Author
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Frontier, DFW/DEN, one flight per day ?!?

Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:27 pm

I was in FlightAware today and I was surprised to read that F9 is down to one flight per day between DFW/DEN. F9 used to run several flights a day on this route. Did the opening of Love Field to nonstop flights on WN between the two cities prove to be too much competition for F9? Or were other factors at play?

Thanks for your responses.
 
plinth857
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Re: Frontier, DFW/DEN, one flight per day ?!?

Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:29 pm

I was also surprised by this; I used to connect in DEN from CLE on my way to DFW; tickets were quite reasonable compared to what else was available, but the times became very inconvenient quite a few months ago.
 
GSPSPOT
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Re: Frontier, DFW/DEN, one flight per day ?!?

Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:29 pm

I didn't think that F9 did multiple-daily flights in their markets(?).
Great Lakes, great life.
 
khpn
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Re: Frontier, DFW/DEN, one flight per day ?!?

Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:36 pm

The combination of WN, NK and AA matching pricing has probably left little room for F9 to succeed in the market.
 
stlgph
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Re: Frontier, DFW/DEN, one flight per day ?!?

Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:41 pm

If you've been following Frontier at all for the last couple of years, this should come as a ZERO on the surprise factor.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
quickmover
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Re: Frontier, DFW/DEN, one flight per day ?!?

Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:52 pm

They used to fly at least five a day on this route. They also used to fly seven dailies over to Kansas City. Those flights were always fall.
 
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SANFan
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Re: Frontier, DFW/DEN, one flight per day ?!?

Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:09 pm

stlgph wrote:
If you've been following Frontier at all for the last couple of years, this should come as a ZERO on the surprise factor.

Correct. Drastic cuts in DEN service in MANY (most?) markets system-wide in the last few years. There are some seasonal ups and downs but overall, there is no real news here...

bb
 
ScottB
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Re: Frontier, DFW/DEN, one flight per day ?!?

Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:46 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
F9 is down to one flight per day between DFW/DEN. F9 used to run several flights a day on this route. Did the opening of Love Field to nonstop flights on WN between the two cities prove to be too much competition for F9?


Yes, the addition of non-stops on WN would have been a big factor: Back in Q4 of 2011, WN was carrying about 10% of the combined (i.e. DAL+DFW) O&D traffic on one-stop or connecting itineraries between DAL & DEN. F9 had about 30% of the combined O&D and an average fare of $161. In Q4 of 2016, WN took a third of the combined O&D traffic while F9 captured about 7%, with an average fare (and I'm not kidding) of $75. Before WN could go non-stop, F9 had a comfortable niche of being able to attract price-sensitive customers by offering a modest discount below the fares charged by AA & UA. Now the market average fare of $130 is below what they used to charge and the passengers who would have preferred WN non-stop from DAL all along have that option.

And in the ULCC model, suckers customers are getting hooked by the price and don't care about the schedule; they just get the rude awakening of all the extra fees when they get to the airport.
 
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mariner
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Re: Frontier, DFW/DEN, one flight per day ?!?

Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:37 pm

SANFan wrote:
stlgph wrote:
If you've been following Frontier at all for the last couple of years, this should come as a ZERO on the surprise factor.

Correct. Drastic cuts in DEN service in MANY (most?) markets system-wide in the last few years. There are some seasonal ups and downs but overall, there is no real news here...

bb


Well, there is some news here. Frontier is making more money that it's made in its history.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
jplatts
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Re: Frontier, DFW/DEN, one flight per day ?!?

Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:12 pm

There are fewer customers that connect from DAL to destinations further west through DEN on Frontier since Delta, Southwest, Spirit, and Virgin America have all added nonstop service to destinations on the West Coast from Dallas in the last 7 years and since Southwest has added nonstop service from DAL to 16 additional destinations in the Western U.S. after the repeal of the Wright Amendment.

Even though Southwest's plans to further expand at DEN has been discussed elsewhere on the Airliners.net forum, Southwest has limited room to further expand at DAL with the 20-gate limit at DAL and Southwest would want to add additional nonstops to destinations other than DEN from DAL before adding additional nonstops to DEN from DAL since DEN already has 7 daily nonstops out of DAL on Southwest.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: Frontier, DFW/DEN, one flight per day ?!?

Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:18 pm

mariner wrote:

Well, there is some news here. Frontier is making more money that it's made in its history.

mariner

So is every other airline in the US! When you don't get taxed on ancillaries and the fuel prices are modest, it's pretty damn easy to turn a profit.
 
MO11
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Re: Frontier, DFW/DEN, one flight per day ?!?

Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:46 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
mariner wrote:

Well, there is some news here. Frontier is making more money that it's made in its history.

mariner

So is every other airline in the US! When you don't get taxed on ancillaries and the fuel prices are modest, it's pretty damn easy to turn a profit.


Just to be clear, ancillary fees aren't subject to excise taxes (which are normally passed on to the customer). They are still considered as revenue and are subject to corporate income tax.
 
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mariner
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Re: Frontier, DFW/DEN, one flight per day ?!?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:56 am

AWACSooner wrote:
mariner wrote:

Well, there is some news here. Frontier is making more money that it's made in its history.

mariner

So is every other airline in the US! When you don't get taxed on ancillaries and the fuel prices are modest, it's pretty damn easy to turn a profit.


It's still news for Frontier to be making money and in the quantities that it is. A.net still isn't used to the idea - LOL.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
commavia
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Re: Frontier, DFW/DEN, one flight per day ?!?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:04 am

khpn wrote:
The combination of WN, NK and AA matching pricing has probably left little room for F9 to succeed in the market.


Indeed. I remember when Frontier had a pretty strong following among DFW leisure travelers who used DEN to connect not only to the west but even to destinations east. That was a different time, though, when Frontier's brand was positioned very differently than today, and when it was always the price leader in this market when it was, at that time, otherwise dominated by only AA and United. Today, of course, the route not only has Spirit but also Southwest and this has radically altered the calculus for Frontier. In that context, I'm not at all surprised that Frontier is today a much smaller player in this huge market.
 
jplatts
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Re: Frontier, DFW/DEN, one flight per day ?!?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:31 am

commavia wrote:
khpn wrote:
The combination of WN, NK and AA matching pricing has probably left little room for F9 to succeed in the market.


Indeed. I remember when Frontier had a pretty strong following among DFW leisure travelers who used DEN to connect not only to the west but even to destinations east. That was a different time, though, when Frontier's brand was positioned very differently than today, and when it was always the price leader in this market when it was, at that time, otherwise dominated by only AA and United. Today, of course, the route not only has Spirit but also Southwest and this has radically altered the calculus for Frontier. In that context, I'm not at all surprised that Frontier is today a much smaller player in this huge market.


In addition to Spirit adding nonstop service to destinations in the Western U.S. from DFW in the last 6 years and in addition to Southwest Airlines adding nonstop service to 16 destinations in the Western U.S. (including DEN and including 15 destinations west of DEN) from DAL after the repeal of the Wright Amendment, Virgin America also added nonstop service from Dallas to LAX and SFO in December 2010 and Delta also brought back nonstop service from DFW to LAX on November 3, 2014. Alaska is also going to be starting nonstop service from DAL to its SEA and PDX hubs on August 27th, and Alaska is going to be starting nonstop service from DAL to SAN and SJC in February 2018.
 
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mariner
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Re: Frontier, DFW/DEN, one flight per day ?!?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:43 am

jplatts wrote:
In addition to Spirit adding nonstop service to destinations in the Western U.S. from DFW in the last 6 years and in addition to Southwest Airlines adding nonstop service to 16 destinations in the Western U.S. (including DEN and including 15 destinations west of DEN) from DAL after the repeal of the Wright Amendment, Virgin America also added nonstop service from Dallas to LAX and SFO in December 2010 and Delta also brought back nonstop service from DFW to LAX on November 3, 2014. Alaska is also going to be starting nonstop service from DAL to its SEA and PDX hubs on August 27th, and Alaska is going to be starting nonstop service from DAL to SAN and SJC in February 2018.


Which would all seem to be jolly good reasons for Frontier to reduce its presence of DFW-DEN and put those same aircraft on routes with rather less capacity - and the chance of better revenue.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
panampreflight
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Re: Frontier, DFW/DEN, one flight per day ?!?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:39 am

Competition City !!!
 
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mariner
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Re: Frontier, DFW/DEN, one flight per day ?!?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:59 am

panampreflight wrote:
Competition City !!!


Indeed!

Run away, I say. Image

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
panampreflight
Posts: 132
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Re: Frontier, DFW/DEN, one flight per day ?!?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:27 pm

mariner wrote:
panampreflight wrote:
Competition City !!!


Indeed!

Run away, I say. Image

mariner


Absolutely!

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