AA Starting PHL-BUD/PRG; ORD-VCE; Move JFK-ZRH to PHL

PHLapproach · Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:42 pm

AA announced internally that PHL will be gaining seasonal service for 2018 to BUD and PRG as well as having the JFK-ZRH service moved to PHL. Official announcement should be shortly.

wn676 · Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:49 pm

All three will be operated by 767s.

There are a few other big international and domestic changes coming, including the launch of ORD-VCE.

HVNandrew · Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:53 pm

PHL-BUD is interesting. BUD has lacked service to the US since DL and AA pulled out (back around 2008, I want to say). I'm kind of surprised that AA isn't trying this out of JFK - seems like it would be a much larger market, and I'm not sure how large the Hungarian population is around PHL. Also, this will be a very different route now, with Malev out of the picture and no connecting traffic on the BUD end.

wn676 · Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:57 pm

HVNandrew wrote:
PHL-BUD is interesting. BUD has lacked service to the US since DL and AA pulled out (back around 2008, I want to say). I'm kind of surprised that AA isn't trying this out of JFK - seems like it would be a much larger market, and I'm not sure how large the Hungarian population is around PHL. Also, this will be a very different route now, with Malev out of the picture and no connecting traffic on the BUD end.

Having no connectivity on the BUD end may be why they're trying to utilize a large connecting hub - PHL - over a more point-to-point operation out of JFK. I think this was the strategy that a few were predicting here regarding the dynamic between JFK and PHL going forward in AA's network.

kavok · Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:59 pm

HVNandrew wrote:
PHL-BUD is interesting. BUD has lacked service to the US since DL and AA pulled out (back around 2008, I want to say). I'm kind of surprised that AA isn't trying this out of JFK - seems like it would be a much larger market, and I'm not sure how large the Hungarian population is around PHL. Also, this will be a very different route now, with Malev out of the picture and no connecting traffic on the BUD end.

Interesting. Obviously NYC is a bigger market than PHL, but maybe AA just felt JFK had too many delays and operational issues with the connecting traffic, and that it was worth it to use PHL instead.

jbs2886 · Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:03 pm

wn676 wrote:
All three will be operated by 767s.

There are a few other big international and domestic changes coming, including the launch of ORD-VCE.

Any others for ORD? VCE is exciting!

Sightseer · Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:04 pm

I'm slightly staggered that JFK-ZRH is moving to PHL.

slcdeltarumd11 · Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:04 pm

kavok wrote:
HVNandrew wrote:
PHL-BUD is interesting. BUD has lacked service to the US since DL and AA pulled out (back around 2008, I want to say). I'm kind of surprised that AA isn't trying this out of JFK - seems like it would be a much larger market, and I'm not sure how large the Hungarian population is around PHL. Also, this will be a very different route now, with Malev out of the picture and no connecting traffic on the BUD end.

Interesting. Obviously NYC is a bigger market than PHL, but maybe AA just felt JFK had too many delays and operational issues with the connecting traffic, and that it was worth it to use PHL instead.

No i think they know these routes can't survive on O&D alone. They need the connection power of PHL.

stlgph · Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:10 pm

Where you folks been? Playing Flight Simulator? Budapest is the new Iceland.

FSDan · Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:14 pm

Sightseer wrote:
I'm slightly staggered that JFK-ZRH is moving to PHL.

Agreed. I thought AA would for sure keep JFK-ZRH around as part of their strategy to serve important business markets from NYC. It's especially interesting since they relatively recently decided to cut PHL-ZRH in favor of keeping JFK-ZRH around. I thought DUB, EDI, and MAN were more likely on the chopping block from JFK...

I'm interested to see if DL will bring back JFK-BUD or if they'll sit back and let AA and LO fill the void.

DLHAM · Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:21 pm

Schedules:

PHL-BUD 6:25 p.m. - 9:35 a.m.
BUD-PHL 11:35 a.m. - 4:00 p.m.

PHL-PRG 6:30 p.m. - 9:05 a.m.
PRG-PHL 11:30 a.m. - 3:10 p.m.

ORD-VCE 7:00 p.m. - 11:00 a.m.
VCE-ORD 2:50 p.m. - 6:15 p.m.

PRG and BUD on a 767, VCE is a 787-8.

DFWandOMA · Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:26 pm

Any news if they are extending DFW-FCO/AMS?

Sightseer · Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:29 pm

DLHAM wrote:
Schedules:

PHL-BUD 6:25 p.m. - 9:35 a.m.
BUD-PHL 11:35 a.m. - 4:00 p.m.

PHL-PRG 6:30 p.m. - 9:05 a.m.
PRG-PHL 11:30 a.m. - 3:10 p.m.

ORD-VCE 7:00 p.m. - 11:00 a.m.
VCE-ORD 2:50 p.m. - 6:15 p.m.

PRG and BUD on a 767, VCE is a 787-8.

I wonder why the 788 sits for nearly 4 hours at VCE. Is it possible that it will rotate with PHL-VCE? I haven't heard anything about 787s going to PHL.

385441 · Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:40 pm

Running Prague and Budapest from Philadelphia doesn't surprise me. It makes sense to attempt those flights from a hub that can capture connections. I'm very surprised that AA would move Zurich to Philadelphia though. That's a big market for business and finance. This will leave AA (and OneWorld) without a presence on that route. Will this hamper AAs ability to attract corporate contracts in New York?

asuflyer · Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:43 pm

AA must have lost the Credit Suisse and UBS contracts as JFK-ZRH as they helped sustain the route, especially in the winter months.

SCHATC422 · Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:44 pm

AA Press Release: http://news.aa.com/press-releases/press ... 06407158=1

commavia · Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:47 pm

Wow, very surprised by BUD and PRG - did not expect either, and I am highly skeptical of both routes working. Guess we'll see.

JFK-ZRH, I suppose, shouldn't be that much a surprise since it's yet another example of AA being the odd man out on a route dominated by Star JV partners with an incremental Delta presence buoyed by a stronger JFK hub. Also sad to see JFK lose MAN and the second CDG (as reported elsewhere), but then I wouldn't be surprised if MAN is backfilled - as long rumored - by BA. This would also imply to me that the remaining, primary, JFK-CDG flight is virtually guaranteed to upgauge to a 777 next summer. Finally, also as reported elsewhere, happy to see AA finally entering NYC-DEN from JFK.

ORD-VCE is interesting - seems somewhat questionable, but then it also seems just like ORD-BCN, which is to say a massive tourism market (and higher-end tourism, too) in the summer when planes aren't hard to fill, and where AA will have a monopoly in the market.

All in all - very, very interesting news today.

airzona11 · Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:48 pm

Great to see AA going after markets like PRG and BUD. PHL is a great hub for connections, JFK more for the O/D. With 767s none the less. Cant help but think we will see more of these types of routes flown with the smaller / older types like the 767, as more 787s come on board. MoM seems like a great future plane to fill this segment (or A358s/788s).

IAHWorldflyer · Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:49 pm

Sightseer wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
Schedules:

PHL-BUD 6:25 p.m. - 9:35 a.m.
BUD-PHL 11:35 a.m. - 4:00 p.m.

PHL-PRG 6:30 p.m. - 9:05 a.m.
PRG-PHL 11:30 a.m. - 3:10 p.m.

ORD-VCE 7:00 p.m. - 11:00 a.m.
VCE-ORD 2:50 p.m. - 6:15 p.m.

PRG and BUD on a 767, VCE is a 787-8.

I wonder why the 788 sits for nearly 4 hours at VCE. Is it possible that it will rotate with PHL-VCE? I haven't heard anything about 787s going to PHL.

To me, it looks like the VCE flight is perfectly timed for cruise ship arrivals and departures. Most cruises will depart between 4 and 6 pm, meaning the 11am arrival gives you time to transfer to the ship. Cruises usually arrive at the debarkation port around 7am, but not everyone can depart until around 10am. Again, the 2:50pm departure lets you make the flight without getting too nervous.

User001 · Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:51 pm

Commavia,

AA haven't cut MAN-JFK? Nor has it been reported?

Sightseer · Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:53 pm

IAHWorldflyer wrote:
Sightseer wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
Schedules:

PHL-BUD 6:25 p.m. - 9:35 a.m.
BUD-PHL 11:35 a.m. - 4:00 p.m.

PHL-PRG 6:30 p.m. - 9:05 a.m.
PRG-PHL 11:30 a.m. - 3:10 p.m.

ORD-VCE 7:00 p.m. - 11:00 a.m.
VCE-ORD 2:50 p.m. - 6:15 p.m.

PRG and BUD on a 767, VCE is a 787-8.

I wonder why the 788 sits for nearly 4 hours at VCE. Is it possible that it will rotate with PHL-VCE? I haven't heard anything about 787s going to PHL.

To me, it looks like the VCE flight is perfectly timed for cruise ship arrivals and departures. Most cruises will depart between 4 and 6 pm, meaning the 11am arrival gives you time to transfer to the ship. Cruises usually arrive at the debarkation port around 7am, but not everyone can depart until around 10am. Again, the 2:50pm departure lets you make the flight without getting too nervous.

That does make sense.

jumpjets · Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:55 pm

Maybe the decision not to fly from BUD to JFK is influenced by the recent announcement that LOT is going to start flying its 787s between those two cities as well as BUD to ORD. Perhaps AA is not wanting to enter into a competietive environment with a new route.

wn676 · Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:57 pm

User001 wrote:
Commavia,

AA haven't cut MAN-JFK? Nor has it been reported?

It will be cut for Summer 2018, along with one JFK-CDG frequency as well as BOS-CDG.

jfklganyc · Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:57 pm

No mention of ZRH in that release?

stlgph · Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:58 pm

Venice is also right in the backdoor to Slovenia and Croatia.

jfklganyc · Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:58 pm

also clarification:

MAN and CDG havent changed...unless you have insider info for us

commavia · Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:00 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
also clarification:

MAN and CDG havent changed...unless you have insider info for us

I'm going by comments reported on Twitter - JFK losing MAN and the second CDG in addition to ZRH, but gaining DEN.

Perhaps false information - if so, apologies on my mistake. Guess we'll see shortly.

redwingspilot · Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:03 pm

User001 wrote:
Commavia,

AA haven't cut MAN-JFK? Nor has it been reported?

It was reported in a company newsletter one of the JFK-CDG flights and JFK-MAN would be cancelled.

IrishAyes · Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:06 pm

what about the operational reliability of the 767s to use on PHL-BUD/PRG? This has been a disaster for DFW-AMS this summer.

atl100million · Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:09 pm

these changes all seem to confirm the previous rumors that AA is refocusing its NE US to Europe presence on PHL while further cutting its presence in NYC and BOS.

DL is losing a direct competitor in a number of NE-Europe markets if this all pans out.

wn676 · Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:17 pm

IrishAyes wrote:
what about the operational reliability of the 767s to use on PHL-BUD/PRG? This has been a disaster for DFW-AMS this summer.

I believe it's something they're actively working to address. I've heard rumors of an extensive maintenance plan for the 767 fleet that will be put into place this fall/winter; that may include some modifications to the cabins as well.

redwingspilot · Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:24 pm

wn676 wrote:
IrishAyes wrote:
what about the operational reliability of the 767s to use on PHL-BUD/PRG? This has been a disaster for DFW-AMS this summer.

I believe it's something they're actively working to address. I've heard rumors of an extensive maintenance plan for the 767 fleet that will be put into place this fall/winter; that may include some modifications to the cabins as well.

I've heard Dave Seymour mention something that the 767 reliability is a hot topic and that current cabins are not up to par. So I expect, like you said, this fall/winter there could be some heavy maintenance and cabin mods done to the 767.

chepos · Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:25 pm

Is ORD BCN and DFW-AMS/FCO coming back next summer.

MIflyer12 · Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:34 pm

stlgph wrote:
Venice is also right in the backdoor to Slovenia and Croatia.

Slovenia had 81K tourist arrivals from the U.S. in 2016. France had 3.2 million from the U.S. in 2014.

https://www.slovenia.info/uploads/dokum ... _web_2.pdf

AA service to Venice is for the cruise traffic, not Slovenia and Croatia.

Antarius · Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:34 pm

redwingspilot wrote:
wn676 wrote:
IrishAyes wrote:
what about the operational reliability of the 767s to use on PHL-BUD/PRG? This has been a disaster for DFW-AMS this summer.

I believe it's something they're actively working to address. I've heard rumors of an extensive maintenance plan for the 767 fleet that will be put into place this fall/winter; that may include some modifications to the cabins as well.

I've heard Dave Seymour mention something that the 767 reliability is a hot topic and that current cabins are not up to par. So I expect, like you said, this fall/winter there could be some heavy maintenance and cabin mods done to the 767.

The cabins just got redone.. the J NGBC angle flat seats were replaced with all aisle Thomson seats. Cabin is not bad in J, although there is no IFE in the entire aircraft which I thought was a poor choice. Not sure what they plan on doing.

wn676 · Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:36 pm

chepos wrote:
Is ORD BCN and DFW-AMS/FCO coming back next summer.

ORD-BCN was specifically mentioned today as a success, and amid the other announcements of route cuts there was nothing in there about DFW-AMS/FCO, so I'd assume they're all returning for 2018. Also, I believe DFW-AMS has recently been loaded as a 772 for next year.

wn676 · Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:39 pm

Antarius wrote:
redwingspilot wrote:
wn676 wrote:

I believe it's something they're actively working to address. I've heard rumors of an extensive maintenance plan for the 767 fleet that will be put into place this fall/winter; that may include some modifications to the cabins as well.

I've heard Dave Seymour mention something that the 767 reliability is a hot topic and that current cabins are not up to par. So I expect, like you said, this fall/winter there could be some heavy maintenance and cabin mods done to the 767.

The cabins just got redone.. the J NGBC angle flat seats were replaced with all aisle Thomson seats. Cabin is not bad in J, although there is no IFE in the entire aircraft which I thought was a poor choice. Not sure what they plan on doing.

It was in reference to the Y cabins (which received the most basic of refreshes) if I remember correctly, although I think they did mention the fact that the J cabin does stand out somewhat from the rest of the widebody fleet. Either way, I'm curious to see what comes of it, if anything.

jbs2886 · Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:40 pm

wn676 wrote:
chepos wrote:
Is ORD BCN and DFW-AMS/FCO coming back next summer.

ORD-BCN was specifically mentioned today as a success, and amid the other announcements of route cuts there was nothing in there about DFW-AMS/FCO, so I'd assume they're all returning for 2018. Also, I believe DFW-AMS has recently been loaded as a 772 for next year.

Will there be more European announcements for next year, or is this it?

wn676 · Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:48 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
wn676 wrote:
chepos wrote:
Is ORD BCN and DFW-AMS/FCO coming back next summer.

ORD-BCN was specifically mentioned today as a success, and amid the other announcements of route cuts there was nothing in there about DFW-AMS/FCO, so I'd assume they're all returning for 2018. Also, I believe DFW-AMS has recently been loaded as a 772 for next year.

Will there be more European announcements for next year, or is this it?

As far as I know, it's hard to say; there's always the possibility of more (and not necessarily TATL) as we approach the end of the year.

Flighty · Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:51 pm

airzona11 wrote:
Great to see AA going after markets like PRG and BUD. PHL is a great hub for connections, JFK more for the O/D. With 767s none the less. Cant help but think we will see more of these types of routes flown with the smaller / older types like the 767, as more 787s come on board. MoM seems like a great future plane to fill this segment (or A358s/788s).

Agreed it has been years (actually since US Airways days) since they took this type of shot at PHL. They added a wave at CLT, a few of which were successful. I guess the DFW adds count too.

chepos · Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:57 pm

I had heard internally DFW AMS was going 787 next year. But who knows.

raylee67 · Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:58 pm

Like many people above, surprised to see JFK-ZRH go. It's a huge banking (i.e. premium) route. Moving to PHL would mean it becomes a route serving connection traffic.

Similarly, I guess AA is eyeing connection traffic US-PHL-BUD/PRG for those two destinations, when they decided to launch with PHL rather than JFK.

Does 757 have the range to serve PHL-BUD/PRG? I would think using 757 would be safer (in business sense, not actually aviation safety) than 767 for PHL-BUD/PRG?

FSDan · Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:59 pm

wn676 wrote:
User001 wrote:
Commavia,

AA haven't cut MAN-JFK? Nor has it been reported?

It will be cut for Summer 2018, along with one JFK-CDG frequency as well as BOS-CDG.

AA must have a better use for the handful of 757s that will remain in the fleet.

I wonder if the 767s will be gone from JFK with these changes? Seems like MAD, BCN, CDG, MXP, and FCO could probably all support 777 or 789 service in the summer. It should be pretty easy to rotate some 767s to PHL from MIA.

wn676 · Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:59 pm

chepos wrote:
I had heard internally DFW AMS was going 787 next year. But who knows.

You can actually view it in the schedule right now.

wn676 · Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:04 pm

FSDan wrote:
wn676 wrote:
User001 wrote:
Commavia,

AA haven't cut MAN-JFK? Nor has it been reported?

It will be cut for Summer 2018, along with one JFK-CDG frequency as well as BOS-CDG.

AA must have a better use for the handful of 757s that will remain in the fleet.

FWIW, it was mentioned that cutting JFK-MAN/1 CDG and BOS-CDG would free up aircraft to operate JFK-Transcon. I wonder if AA is preparing to launch some kind of new Transcon product between their typical offering and the 321T. I can't think of any other reason for using flatbed-equipped 757s.

nascar1 · Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:15 pm

Any news about DFW-BCN route?

jfklganyc · Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:19 pm

If this is true, to be confirmed publicly, AA is headed for the dust bin at JFK.

Sad day. But as we saw with TW and UA, once you start cutting at JFK, you become more irrelevant and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

DEN will stay one season.

AA has a long history of non hub, within perimeter, mainline flying from JFK. It is all bad.

Only flights that meet that category and have stuck around (for now) is MCO and 2 feeders from BOS (used to be 3)

tlecam · Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:21 pm

I hadn't heard that AA was cutting BOS-CDG - In fact it's loaded in the system.

9w748capt · Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:22 pm

Antarius wrote:
redwingspilot wrote:
wn676 wrote:

I believe it's something they're actively working to address. I've heard rumors of an extensive maintenance plan for the 767 fleet that will be put into place this fall/winter; that may include some modifications to the cabins as well.

I've heard Dave Seymour mention something that the 767 reliability is a hot topic and that current cabins are not up to par. So I expect, like you said, this fall/winter there could be some heavy maintenance and cabin mods done to the 767.

The cabins just got redone.. the J NGBC angle flat seats were replaced with all aisle Thomson seats. Cabin is not bad in J, although there is no IFE in the entire aircraft which I thought was a poor choice. Not sure what they plan on doing.

Actual overhead bins in Y would be a decent start. IIRC only a small fraction of AA's 767s have the newer, more spacious overheads in Y. AA even half-assedly installed new bins up front only to leave the ancient bins in Y - which don't come close to accommodating a standard rollaboard. I'm too lazy to check this but has AA installed inflight streaming on 767s? Or still just the overhead monitors?

wn676 · Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:23 pm

9w748capt wrote:
Antarius wrote:
redwingspilot wrote:

I've heard Dave Seymour mention something that the 767 reliability is a hot topic and that current cabins are not up to par. So I expect, like you said, this fall/winter there could be some heavy maintenance and cabin mods done to the 767.

The cabins just got redone.. the J NGBC angle flat seats were replaced with all aisle Thomson seats. Cabin is not bad in J, although there is no IFE in the entire aircraft which I thought was a poor choice. Not sure what they plan on doing.

Actual overhead bins in Y would be a decent start. IIRC only a small fraction of AA's 767s have the newer, more spacious overheads in Y. AA even half-assedly installed new bins up front only to leave the ancient bins in Y - which don't come close to accommodating a standard rollaboard. I'm too lazy to check this but has AA installed inflight streaming on 767s? Or still just the overhead monitors?

I think they've started installing Sat Wifi on the 767s that will remain past this year. Haven't experienced it myself yet though, only one of the half-assed refurbished birds a couple of years ago where the audio and overhead video cut out intermittently throughout the flight. Streaming would be a welcome improvement in Y.

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